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Wikipedia_talk:Non-free_content/RFC_on_use_of_sports_team_logos#Straw_poll_to_see_where_we_stand

I believe that my previous presentation of this policy did not adequately reflect prior discussions and knowledge acquired with regards to copyrights and trademarks. Trademarks are not the same as copyrights and many images on Wikipedia have been erroneously labeled as copyrighted when, in fact, they are trademarked (I believe this is because it is the first potentially appropriate option available to those who upload images when going down the list). There is no expiration on a trademark like there is with a copyright. Some trademarks can be copyrighted, but those that use letters and/or simple geometric shapes cannot. The purpose of a trademark is to associate some sort of symbol with an entity. No restriction can be placed on such a logo for purposes of identification because that is its intended purpose. However, there are legal restrictions for its use: they cannot be used for commercial gain and they cannot be used to indicate endorsement/sponsorship without written approval. As long as such images are being used strictly to identify the entity in question, they cannot be restricted in use. Wikipedia's current guidelines reflect this understanding.

Accordingly, I am re-presenting this proposed clarification to WP:LOGOS with solicitation for feedback from all those who participated in the previous discussion. If I missed a name, it is entirely in error and no malice should be thought of. Please contact me and I will send a message as soon as possible or you can contact them yourself.

Teams: In order to present the subject clearly, the preferred lead image for a sports team is the team's current logo (example). Images of current players are not desired as the members can change and the image may quickly become dated (this does not preclude use of the image in the article itself). If a school has a specific logo for a particular sport (example), it is preferred to use that image. In the absence of a specific sport's logo, the athletic department logo may be used (example).

Articles about a team's season: The preferred lead image for a season of a sports team is a free logo for that team. If a free logo is not available, an image from the season, preferably of the players within the field of play, is the next preferred image. To further the goals of a free encyclopedia, do not use any versions of copyrighted logos including: team logos, logo(s) of a school, or athletic department logo(s).

Sporting Events: The preferred lead image for a sporting event is that event's logo. Another option is an image of the event itself, but care should be made to use a neutral image (examples: acceptable, not acceptable). To further the goals of a free encyclopedia, do not use any versions of copyrighted logos including: team logos, logo(s) of a school, or athletic department logo(s).

Rivalries: The preferred lead image for a rivalry is the rivalry's logo. If such a logo is not in use, use a free logo to represent each team. If no such images exist, an additional option is to use an image from an event clearly showing members from each team. To further the goals of a free encyclopedia, do not use any versions of copyrighted logos including: team logos, logo(s) of a school, or athletic department logo(s).

Other Non Free logos in sports articles: These images should be kept to a minimum, however, use of copyrighted logos to show change over time is acceptable provided there is a narrative and the images are not used purely for decoration or team identification.

As always, free images are desired wherever possible. If any images used with this guidance are copyrighted, a separate fair use rationale must be included for each use of the image.

Amazingly, I think I have a solution we can all agree to!

So, with a new understanding of copyrights and free images, here is my new proposal (under the condition that we go and fix the images that are erroneously identified)... — BQZip01 — ^talk 21:41, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Sports Teams

Teams: In order to present the subject clearly, the preferred lead image for a sports team is the team's current logo (example). Images of current players are not desired as the members can change and the image may quickly become dated (this does not preclude use of the image in the article itself). If a school has a specific logo for a particular sport (example), it is preferred to use that image. In the absence of a specific sport's logo, the athletic department logo may be used (example).

Articles about a team's season: The preferred lead image for a season of a sports team is a free logo for that team. If a free logo is not available, an image from the season, preferably of the players within the field of play, is the next preferred image. To further the goals of a free encyclopedia, do not use any versions of copyrighted logos including: team logos, logo(s) of a school, or athletic department logo(s).

Sporting Events: The preferred lead image for a sporting event is that event's logo. Another option is an image of the event itself, but care should be made to use a neutral image (examples: acceptable, not acceptable). To further the goals of a free encyclopedia, do not use any versions of copyrighted logos including: team logos, logo(s) of a school, or athletic department logo(s).

Rivalries: The preferred lead image for a rivalry is the rivalry's logo. If such a logo is not in use, use a free logo to represent each team. If no such images exist, an additional option is to use an image from an event clearly showing members from each team. To further the goals of a free encyclopedia, do not use any versions of copyrighted logos including: team logos, logo(s) of a school, or athletic department logo(s).

Other Non Free logos in sports articles: These images should be kept to a minimum, however, use of copyrighted logos to show change over time is acceptable provided there is a narrative and the images are not used purely for decoration or team identification.

As always, free images are desired wherever possible. If any images used with this guidance are copyrighted, a separate fair use rationale must be included for each use of the image.

So here we are

Ok, I've done a thorough re-reading of everything on this page, sans the stuff added in the past hour and I think I've come up with a reasonable addition to Wikipedia:LOGO#Specific_cases for purposes of clarifying WP:NFCC with regards to use in sports pages:

Proposal 1 entitled: Sports Teams

Teams: In order to present the subject clearly, the preferred lead image for a sports team is the team's current logo (example). Images of current players are not desired as the members can change and the image may quickly become dated (this does not preclude use of the image in the article itself). If a school has a specific logo for a particular sport (example), it is preferred to use that image. In the absence of a specific sport's logo, the athletic department logo may be used (example).

Season article: The preferred lead image for a season of a sports team is an image from the season, preferably of the players within the field of play. To further the goals of a free encyclopedia, do not use a team logo, the logo(s) of the school, or athletic department logo(s) as the lead image(s).

Sporting Event: The preferred lead image for a sporting event is that event's logo. Another option is an image of the event itself, but care should be made to use a neutral image (examples: acceptable, not acceptable). To further the goals of a free encyclopedia, do not use team logos, the logo(s) of the school(s), or athletic department logo(s) as the lead image(s).

As always, free images are desired wherever possible. If any images used with this guidance are copyrighted or trademarked, a separate fair use rationale must be included for each use of the image.

Straw Poll Results

Ok, I think we've given this straw poll a decent 3 day run. Here are the results of this nonbinding straw poll (Support/Oppose/Neutral).

Remove team logo images from individual game articles (26/18/8): Approximately a (notable) 3:2 ratio of support with a strong neutral contingent. Ultimately, I would say we don't yet have consensus on the subject (not even a supermajority), but it is notable that the support is a decent majority. Phrasing on a guideline (see below) could bump this into a clearer consensus.

Remove team logo images from individual season articles (23/26/2): Approximately a 1:1 ratio of of support/opposition favoring opposition ultimately showing no consensus on the matter.

Remove team logo images from school sports team articles (4/36/2): Approximately 9:1 ratio of opposition. I was personally quite surprised this poll turned out so heavily against the basic premise. I think everyone will agree this idea comes the closest to finding consensus on any particular issue raised here.

The poll is not "closed" in any way and neither is discussion on the matter. Feel free to continue such discussion and/or add to the !votes. — BQZip01 — ^talk 23:46, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

So, now what?!?

So, where do we go from here? We've had a good discussion with many valid points being made. I think the best thing we can do as a group is to come up with some guidelines to help guide users in proper image use within sporting articles. I think if we can come up with phrasing that the good majority of people like, we can come up with an effective guideline by which we can all work within. There's also no reason that we can't come up with a partial solution now and figure out the rest later.

Please read WP:VOTE and understand that this is not a vote, it is merely a format in which we can more clearly express views and show whether or not certain phrasing for a guideline has consensus support. This entire format is completely useless without discussion.

To that end, here are my suggestions starting with the least contentious to the most contentious. If your don't like it or feel you have a better idea on how to phrase it, feel free to add your own suggestions using the same format (for consistency). For the sake of brevity and simplicity, please confine comments/discussion to the "discussion" section and update the tallies when you post a !vote. I request that only a support or opposition !vote be recorded. You do not need to record an opinion on the matter to participate in the discussion. <ADD SIGNATURE BLOCK HERE>

Team logo images on sports team articles

Team Article Option 1 (1/0)

Submitted by — BQZip01 — ^talk

The preferred lead image for a sports team is the team's current logo (example). Images of current players are not preferred as the members can change and the image may quickly become dated (this does not preclude use of the image in the article itself). If a school has a specific logo for a sport (example), it is preferred to use that image. In the absence of a specific sport's logo, the athletic department logo may be used (example). If such an image is copyrighted or trademarked (as most are), a fair use rationale must be included for each iteration.

Support

— BQZip01 — ^talk 07:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Team logo images on individual season articles

Season Article Option 1 (1/0)

Submitted by — BQZip01 — ^talk

The preferred lead image for a sports team season is the team photo for the associated season. If a team photo is not available, an image from the season is preferred. If these options are not available, use the sport's logo for that school (preferred) or the school's athletics logo. If such an image is copyrighted or trademarked (as most are), a fair use rationale must be included for each iteration.

Support

— BQZip01 — ^talk 07:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Many of these images are copyrighted and higher resolution images for larger teams (enough to tell players apart) may not be able to meet fair use criteria (namely low-res) and still show anything of significance. Additionally a photo during the season may not be appropriate or representative of the season. — BQZip01 — ^talk 23:51, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Season Article Option 2 (1/0)

Submitted by — BQZip01 — ^talk

The preferred lead image for a sports team season is the team photo. If a team photo is not available, use the sport's logo for that school (preferred) or the school's athletics logo. If such an image is copyrighted or trademarked (as most are), a fair use rationale must be included for each iteration.

Support

— BQZip01 — ^talk 07:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Many of these images are copyrighted and higher resolution images for larger teams (enough to tell players apart) may not be able to meet fair use criteria (namely low-res). — BQZip01 — ^talk 23:51, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Season Article Option 3 (1/0)

Submitted by — BQZip01 — ^talk

The preferred lead image for a sports team season is the sport's logo for that school (preferred) or the school's athletics logo. If such an image is copyrighted or trademarked (as most are), a fair use rationale must be included for each iteration.

Support

— BQZip01 — ^talk 07:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Team logo images on individual game articles

Game Article Option 1 (1/0)

Submitted by — BQZip01 — ^talk

The preferred lead image for a sporting event is that event's logo. Should the contest be an annual event with differing teams each year, the event's logo should be followed by the logos of the visiting team and then the home team to make it clear which teams played in the athletic event. If the event does not have a logo, the lead image should be the logos of each of the teams in the previously specified order. If any such images are copyrighted or trademarked (as most are), a fair use rationale must be included for each iteration.

Support

— BQZip01 — ^talk 07:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Game Article Option 2 (1/0)

Submitted by — BQZip01 — ^talk

The preferred lead image for a sporting event is that event's logo. If the event does not have a logo, the lead image should be the logos of the visiting team and then the home team to make it clear which teams played in the athletic event. If any such images are copyrighted or trademarked (as most are), a fair use rationale must be included for each iteration.

Support

— BQZip01 — ^talk 07:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Game Article Option 3 (1/0)

Submitted by — BQZip01 — ^talk

The preferred lead image for a sporting event is that event's logo. Another option is an image of the event itself. If the event does not have a logo, the lead image should be the logos of the visiting team and then the home team to make it clear which teams played in the athletic event. If any such images are copyrighted or trademarked (as most are), a fair use rationale must be included for each iteration.

Support

— BQZip01 — ^talk 07:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Major drawback: A photo during the game may not be appropriate or representative. — BQZip01 — ^talk 23:51, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Things which we can all agree on

I've noticed that there seems to be a twisting of words and pronouncements of certain ideas as if they are verbatim policy, when they are not. Can we at least agree to the following?

"Overuse"

"Overuse" is not explicitly defined anywhere and is not used in any policy or guideline with respect to images

Agree

— BQZip01 — ^talk 23:14, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Disagree (please explain why? Discussion is welcome.)

"Minimal usage"

Minimal usage is only defined in WP:NFCC policy as "Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information."

Agree

— BQZip01 — ^talk 23:14, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Disagree (please explain why? Discussion is welcome.)

"Minimal extent of use"

"Minimal extent of use" is only defined in policy with respect resolution and using portions of materials instead of the whole work where appropriate: "An entire work is not used if a portion will suffice. Low- rather than high-resolution/fidelity/bit rate is used (especially where the original could be used for deliberate copyright infringement)."

Agree

— BQZip01 — ^talk 23:14, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Disagree (please explain why? Discussion is welcome.)

"Overuse"

"Overuse" is not explicitly defined anywhere and is not used in any policy or guideline with respect to images

Agree

— BQZip01 — ^talk 23:14, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Disagree (please explain why? Discussion is welcome.)