User:Jnestorius/TCD vs Dublin U

table

	College	University	Shared
Name	College of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity near Dublin [2010 Statutes p.40 fn. 5 has more detail]	University of Dublin
Source of name	explicit in charter of 3 March 1591/2	implicit
Legal status	corporation	unincorporated entity
Composed of	Provost + Fellows + Scholia [? Scholars or all matriculated students?]	Chancellor + Doctors + Masters [ie graduates — has this extended to bachelor graduates now?]
Rules	Regulations (subordinate)	Statutes (subordinate)	Charters (supreme)
Rules made by	Senate (1857 charter incorporated the Senate)	Convocation	letters patent until 1922 and private acts of the Oireachtas thereafter
Governed by	Board	Visitors (originally Church of Ireland archbishops; now Chancellor ex officio and Judicial Visitor appointed ad hoc by Government of Ireland)
Property	Land, buildings, library
Staff	?	Professors	Registrar

Notes

Controversy over meaning of unum Collegium mater Universitatis in original charter. [1907 pp. 75 ff.]

Possibly a distinction between "scholar" in the general sense of an enrolled student and as a specific honoured subset of students; which is the sense intended by the founding charter or any subsequent statute? What Latin words are used (scolares vs studiosi). Per 2010 Statutes p.75, only a subset (70) of Scholars are Foundation Scholars with a vote on Body Corporate.

Besides the Medieval University of Dublin, there was between 1627 and 1629 a Jesuit college, which George A. Little calls a "university", at a site occupied since 1703 by Tailors' Hall. The staff probably included Stephen White. It started when Henry Cary, 1st Viscount Falkland was a Lord Deputy who condoned recusants in return for fines; it was suppressed by more anti-Catholic Lords Justices of Ireland (Adam Loftus, 1st Viscount Loftus and Richard Boyle, 1st Earl of Cork) while Falkland was called away to England. "The college served as a school of higher learning for lay students. In 1629 it had seven priests, with four teaching grammar and one teaching humanities. Even though the college was later called a university, it is unlikely that its program of studies was broad enough to compete with Trinity College."

To read

• T. W. MOODY 1958 JSTOR 24403598 "THE IRISH UNIVERSITY QUESTION OF THE NINETEENTH CENTURY" History Vol. 43, No. 148 (1958), pp. 90-109
• JSTOR 23040322 Landlord and tenant on the estate of Trinity College Dublin, 1851-1903 W. J. Lowe Hermathena No. 120 (Summer 1976), pp. 5-24
• Larkin, Charles (2007). "Early Modern Statutes and Modern-Day Law: The Story of the Trinity College and the 1997 Universities Act". In Romano, Andrea (ed.). Gli statuti universitari: tradizione dei testi e valenze politiche. Convegno internazionale di studi, Messina, Milazzo, 13–18 aprile 2004. Centro interuniversitario per la storia delle università italiane. Vol. 8. Bologna: Clueb. doi:10.1400/107628. ISBN 9788849128482.

Questions

1. What case law is there?
2. 2010 Statutes p.235 "Order of Precedence" puts "Graduates of University" ahead of "Graduates of College" --- who is in the later category?
3. What about affiliated institutions? Are they all affiliated to the College as opposed to the University?
4. list proposals for further colleges for the university
   • as distinct from
     • colleges/institutions associated with Trinity
     • "halls" — how distinct are these?
   1. Commonwealth
   2. Act of Settlement 1660
   3. Roman Catholic Relief Act 1793
   4. Fagan 1854
   5. Gladstone 1874
   6. 1967 Donagh O'Malley doi:10.1080/03323315.2013.867095

Sources

• Acts of Union 1800, Article Fourth GB Ir

  "that ... one hundred commoners (two for each county of Ireland, two for the city of Dublin, two for the city of Cork, one for the university of Trinity College, and one for each of the thirty-one most considerable cities, towns, and boroughs), be the number to sit and vote on the part of Ireland in the house of commons of the parliament of the united kingdom" [in the Irish act, no italics and "the university of Trinity college" has lowercase c in "college"]

  • this, especially given the lowercase u in "university" and the lack of the word "Dublin" in reference to the university, suggests the wording is a defining description of the university rather than its name, something like "the university to which Trinity College appertains". Compare "It is remarkable that all attempts, whether promoted by the College or not, to shape the University of Trinity College according to the peculiar model of Oxford and Cambridge have failed."
• Miller, George (1804). An Examination of the Charters and Statutes of Trinity College, Dublin: In Regard to the Supposed Distinction Between the College and the University. Dublin: Charles Brown.
• 1845 Denis Caulfield Heron case
  • "The Queen at the Prosecution Of D. C. Heron v. The Visitors of Trinity College, Dublin (Queen's Bench)". Irish Law Reports of Cases Argued and Determined in the Courts of Queen's Bench, Common Pleas, and Exchequer of Pleas. 9. Dublin: Hodges and Smith: 41–60. 1847.
    • (9 Irish Law Reports 56 cited by Meenan [p. 594]) p. 56 is where begins Richard Keatinge's judgment as assessor nominated by the two archbishops as Visitors.
  • Heron, Denis Caulfield; MacDonnell, Hercules Henry Graves; Hancock, William Neilson (1846). Report of the Case of Denis Caulfield Heron, Against the Provost and Senior Fellows, in the Visitorial Court of Appeal, Trinity College, Dublin. Dublin: Hodges and Smith.
• Heron, Denis Caulfield (1847). The Constitutional History of the University of Dublin: With Some Account of Its Present Condition, and Suggestions for Improvement. Dublin: J. McGlashan. p. 9.
• [Whately University Commission] (1853). "Appendix; Paper 2: The University as distinct from Trinity College". Report of Her Majesty's Commissioners into the State, discipline, studies and revenues of the University of Dublin, and of Trinity College. Parliamentary papers. Vol. HC 1852-1853 xlv (1637) 1. Dublin: Alexander Thom for HMSO. pp. 2–13. Command paper 1637.
• Fagan, William Trant (4 April 1854). "Dublin University". Parliamentary Debates (Hansard). Vol. 132. HC. col. 376–418.

  In the University Calendar of 1833, he found the following:— The board, conceiving that the regulations of Oxford and Cambridge were essential to the nature of an University, and that, therefore, a system which acknowledged no corporate distinction between the college and the University, must be radically defective, made an effort to obtain for the latter a distinct charter, and for this purpose they, on the 13th May, 1616, voted an allowance to the provost, to defray the expenses of his journey to London, about the public good and service of the college, and, particularly, for procuring two distinct charters—one for the college, the other for the University. At that time the negotiations with the Government about the new Statutes were in active progress, but the unwillingness of the fellows to surrender their former charter, with the privilege of legislating for themselves which it conferred upon them, appears to have defeated the whole design.

• 1858 privately printed opinion of F. A. FitzGerald
  • extract reprinted in Todd, James H. (1869). "Introduction". A catalogue of graduates who have proceeded to degrees in the University of Dublin, from the earliest recorded commencements to July, 1866: with supplement to December l6, 1868. Dublin: Hodges, Smith, and Foster. pp. xxiii–xxv [footnote].
  • and thence as [1907 Doc 84]
  • "It is, I apprehend, in this sense that the Letter Patent of James I. recites that Trinity College is and is accounted an University, and has the privileges of an University, and that the Charter of Charles describes it as a College with the privileges of an University; not that the privileges belong to it qua corporation, but because the privileges do belong to its alumni, and to its alumni only"
• "1888 June 2 judgment of Andrew Porter the Master of the Rolls in Ireland that a bequest to "The Corporation of the University of Dublin" vested in Trinity College". Chartae et statuta Collegii Sacrosanctae et Individuae Trinitatis Reginae Elizabethae juxta Dublin. Vol. II. Dublin: G. Weldrick. 1898. pp. 507–536.

  also printed in "Trinity College Dublin v. Attorney-General and others". Irish Ecclesiastical Record. 11 ser 4. Dublin: Browne & Nolan: 357–374. April 1902.

  • cited as Trinity College v. The University of Dublin in Fry University Commission [p. 65] where Christopher Palles, disagrees with Porter on some aspects
  • Bequest led to the creation of the Reid Professor of Criminal Law, Criminology and Penology

  [p. 507] "The plaintiffs are the Provost, Fellows, and Scholars, of Trinity College, Dublin, and the defendants are the Attorney-General, the Chancellor, Doctors, and Masters of the University of Dublin, and the Trustees and Executors of the will of the late Richard Tuohill Reid, Barrister-at-Law, formerly of Killarney, in the county of Kerry, and afterwards of Bombay, in the East Indies"

  [p. 519] "the College was supreme and the University was a branch or department of it, if indeed the College itself was not, more accurately, the University itself"

• Stubbs, John William (1889). The History of the University of Dublin, from Its Foundation to the End of the Eighteenth Century. Dublin: Hodges, Figgis.

  pp. 34 ff discusses 1614–1617 proposal to have separate charters for University and College

  pp. 379 ff Appendix original documents XIX et seq relate to this proposal

  pp. 152 ff discusses the Edward Forbes case (see Alton below)

• Napier, Joseph (1896). "Introduction; The College and the University". A Catalogue of Graduates of the University of Dublin. Vol. 2 (2nd ed.). Dublin: Hodges, Figgis. pp. iii–xxvi.

  [p. xxv–xxvi] It has been supposed by some that a University with but one College is an anomaly. On the contrary, a University with several Colleges is more unusual. There are Universities in Scotland and elsewhere with each of which only one College is connected. It appears from the Report of the Commissioners of 1863 under the Universities (Scotland) Act, that, after the most mature deliberation, they came to the conclusion that it would be impolitic and inexpedient to merge these Universities into one, having a central examining board. "The greatest apprehensions," they say, "were manifested of any steps being taken to deprive the Universities of the exercise of their ancient privilege, not merely of conferring Degrees, but of conducting the examinations for them. They were unable to see" (they add) "that any corresponding advantage is likely to be derived from so serious a step as is implied in reducing the ancient Universities of Scotland from the position of Universities, and converting them into Colleges of a new National University. [fn: The distinction between the College and the University, in the case of the University and College of Glasgow, was considered in a suit which was commenced in 1807, in which this distinction was judicially established. In the course of the proceedings, Dr. Duigenan, among other witnesses, was examined as to his status in the University of Dublin as Profesor of Law.]

• Mahaffy, John Pentland (1903). An epoch in Irish history: Trinity College, Dublin, its foundation and early fortunes, 1591-1660. London: Unwin.

  pp. 63–65 "It has been a matter of recent controversy whether the University of Dublin is distinct from Trinity College — indeed, whether it exists at all" [p. 63] ... "So long, therefore, as the College founded by Elizabeth remains alone, it exercises all the functions of an University, as the preamble of the letters patent of James I. in granting it Parliamentary representation, recites" p. 65 ... "It is to be noted that the new houses actually established were not called Colleges, but Halls, inasmuch as they had no independent Charters, and their heads and lecturers were appointed by the Provost and fellows of Trinity College. The College was also liable for debts of these Halls to tradesmen for their supplies." [p. 65 fn. 1]

  pp. 161–163 "the clause about maintaining the Charter shows that the policy of granting a new Charter, with separation of the College from the University, must already have been in the air. ... These ordinances are practically the Regula Universitatis ever since in force, for the University of Dublin as such has never obtained a Charter." [p. 161] and "But this set of rules is no Charter; and the University, having no incorporation or seal, can only be considered as a particular aspect of Trinity College. The seal of the College was then, and is now, affixed to all University documents ... and the University seal, granted in 1851, is a mere curiosity." [pp. 162]–163

  pp. 165–168 "Next to the question of this government of the College, came that of the indefinite relations of College and University." [p. 165] "Nevertheless the separate establishment of an University was clearly regarded as inevitable — one of the many inevitable things which have never happened in Ireland" [p. 168]

  p. 259 "in the letters patent preceding the Statutes, the Provost and Senior Fellows are still empowered to elect a Chancellor, Proctors, and other University officers, thus showing that Laud did not differ from the original conception of the College as a corporation endowed with University powers, and not the first of a number of Colleges to be placed under a controlling University."

  pp. 270–271 [Irish Parliament act? journal? report?] "Queen Elizabeth by a Charter dated the 34th of her reign on supplication made by Henry Usher in the name of the Citizens of Dublin, did erect and found the College near Dublin to be a College and University"

  p. 291 "Reasons moving the Sen. Fell, to put the Public Seal to the certificate of Mr. Harding's degradation : — 1. The clause in the statute prohibiting the Seal to be put to any instrument in the Provost's absence relates to things which concern the College only. This was a particular concerning the University, which having no other scale than what is of the House when it is required in things concerning the University altereth its propriety and cannot be denied."

  p. 309 "Running through the records of the Commonwealth period, we find a deliberate and growing design to establish a second College in connection with the University, to be called New College, with its Master or Provost, its fellows and its scholars."

• [Fry University Commission] (1907). Final Report of the Royal Commission on Trinity College, Dublin, and the University of Dublin. Command papers Cm. 3311.
  • [pp. 61–72] Notes appended to the Report; No. 4: Note by the Lord Chief Baron on the Relation Between the College and the University Christopher Palles
    • [p. 68] "The Testator had left the College and University long before the Senate was incorporated or the Council heard of. It was to Trinity College and its University of Dublin, inseparaby and indistinguishably blended with it, that he owed his training and his degree." These words [in 1888 judgment] cannot be taken as judicially expressing any opinion as to the legal effect of the Charter. To do so would be repugnant to the decision in the same judgment on the legal question. They referred to the College and the University in their outward presentation, in their buildings and their officers, as they would appear to the Testator, to whom, very naturally, they would seem to be one undivided whole.
    • [p. 71] "The misnomers and erroneous references to the College in some of the Acts of Parliament and Charters mentioned in the Memorandum appended to the Report, are not, in my opinion, of any weight whatsoever on the construction of the Charter which is now forthcoming."
    • [pp. 71–72] "If I am right in this, it follows that the College has no legal status to complain of the foundation of a second College alongside of itself in the University. ... So, too, the foundation of a second College without the consent of the University would not be an invasion of the legal rights of the latter".
    • Palles lists [p. 67] five "decisions and [..] legal opinions which appear from the evidence to have been from time to time obtained by Trinity College as to the meaning and effect of the Charter of Elizabeth":
      1. Master of the Rolls [1888]
      2. Visitors of the College [I guess 1845 in 9 ILR 56]
      3. opinion of Mr. Francis A. Fitzgerald, Q.C [Doc 84 below is extract]
      4. opinion of Francis Blackburne, Vice-Chancellor 11 Dec 1858, at a Comitia of the Senate judgment as to the body in whom the right of appointment of the Registrar of the Senate of the University was vested [published Chartae et Statuta, vol. ii... Dub., 1898, p. 146] — only extracts quoted here:–

         [p. 66] [the 1857 charter] "recognizes and perpetuates all the functions and duties of the University and its means of exercising them in their full integrity"

         [p. 70 + Doc 86 p. 473] "It is now, for any practical purpose, not necessary to inquire whether the University was a corporate body before the late Charter. Through the agency of the Chancellor, or the Vice-Chancellor, and other proper officers for whose perpetual appointment the Crown made ample provision, the power to grant degrees was insured to continue for all time. So, and in like manner, the succession of members of the Senate was to be for ever supplied out of the members of another body expressly incorporated. The state of things which continued for above 250 years was in exact conformity with the intentions which these provisions indicate. The Legislature and the Crown, from the earliest period down to the time of the last Charter, have recognised and treated the University as a body corporate, but what is directly to the purpose is that this Charter of the Queen [i.e., that of 21 Vict], recognises and perpetuates all the functions and duties of the University, and its means of exercising them in their full integrity."

         [p. 67] (Mr. Blackburne does not express a decided opinion whether the University was or was not incorporated by the Charter of 34 Elizabeth.)

      5. opinion of Joseph Napier, also Vice Chancellor of the University ... published by the College in 1896 [Doc. 85 below]
  • [pp. 75–80] Memorandum on the Relation Between the College and the University

    Other publications

    • First Report Cd. 3174 — mere 1-paragraph intro to:–
    • Appendix to the First Report; Statements, and returns furnished to the Commission in July and August 1906 Cd. 3176 (159 pp.)
    • Appendix to the Final Report; Minutes of evidence and documents Cd. 3312 — see especially:–
      • Contents> Documents> Section L nos 82–86 82 possibly relevant; 83, 84, 85, 86 are 1847, 1869, 1896, 1888 docs above
      • Index> Trinity College, Dublin> University and College, Relations between (other index heads "Separate College or University" and "Single University, with Trinity College as Sole College>Second College in Dublin University, Merits of Scheme as compared with Single College University Scheme")
• Alton, E. H. (1941). "Fragments of College History.—II". Hermathena (58): 148–155. ISSN 0018-0750. JSTOR 23037710.

  Notes (t) Edward Forbes (MA[Aberdeen]), BA[Dub] 1705, MA[Dub] 13 July 1708, degraded 21 July 1708 for "reproaching the memory of the late King William" [p. 149] i.e. suspected Jacobitism of unclear evidence [pp. 150–153] which "The degradation of Forbes started a hot dispute, which lasted many years, between the Board and the Senate, the College and the University" [p. 150] "The dispute regarding the Board's action in the case of Forbes raised the whole question of the relations of the College to the University. There never was a charter for the University, though Temple tried to procure one in 1616." [p. 155 — fn. 73 cites Mahaffy (p. 185 instead of 163), Stubbs, and Miller]

• Meenan, James (1946–1947). ""The universities." II - The University of Dublin: Trinity College". Journal of the Statistical and Social Inquiry Society of Ireland. 17: 594–610.

  [p. 594] The identity, for most practical purposes, of College and University has led to a general confusion of the respective functions of both institutions. It has, as a result, contributed to the bedevilment of the University question, so many attempted solutions of which have turned on the peculiar status of the University of Dublin. ... Trinity College was certainly established by this [1591] Charter : where and when the University was founded is not so obvious. [fns cites Fry Commission p. 10 and Appendix p. 159; and 9 Irish Law Reports 56]

• Beckett, J. C. (1947). "Review of A History of Trinity College, Dublin, 1591-1892". Irish Historical Studies. 5 (19): 261. ISSN 0021-1214. JSTOR 30004871.

  The obscure question of the relation between Trinity College and Dublin University is thrust into a long and not very satisfactory footnote (pp. 6-7) and thereafter forgotten; though it is obviously relevant to the late nineteenth century scheme (briefly mentioned on p. 189) for reconstructing the university so as to include other colleges.

• Forbes, Suzanne (22 March 2018). Print and Party Politics in Ireland, 1689-1714. Springer. pp. 9, 197, 205, 223, 264. doi:10.1007/978-3-319-71586-5. ISBN 978-3-319-71586-5. — claim that Forbes was a Jacobite was in fact a "Whig smear" [p. 9]
• Fox, Peter (24 April 2014). Trinity College Library Dublin: A History. Cambridge University Press. p. viii. ISBN 978-1-139-95222-4.

  The distinction between the University of Dublin and Trinity College has changed over the years, but in essence it is the College which provides the teaching and research facilities, including the Library, and the University which confers degrees, though for most day-to-day purposes the two institutions are synonymous. The University has a Chancellor and several Pro-Chancellors (the office of Vice-Chancellor was abolished in 1964), but all of those roles are primarily of a formal or ceremonial nature. The head of the College is the Provost, a post equivalent to Vice-Chancellor or President elsewhere, and the College is run by the Board, which until 1911 consisted of the Provost and the seven Senior Fellows. After that date its membership was gradually extended to include representatives of the Junior Fellows, professors and, later, students and other members of staff.

• "Role - Chancellor". Trinity College Dublin. 7 June 2022. Retrieved 27 July 2024.

  For most practical purposes, Trinity College and the University of Dublin may be regarded as one and the same institution. However, degrees are awarded by the University of Dublin, not Trinity College, and this is the main instance when the roles of the two bodies diverge. This extends back to the historic roots of the College, which was modelled on the multi-college system operating in universities such as Cambridge and Oxford.

• Chief Financial Officer. "Annual Report and Consolidated Financial Statements Year ended 30 September 2022" (PDF). Trinity College Dublin, the University of Dublin. I am pleased to present the Consolidated Financial Statements of Trinity College Dublin, the University of Dublin (the University, Trinity) — that is, the report refers to the entity as "the University" or "Trinity".
• TCD Registrar (22 May 2024). "The 2010 Consolidated Statutes of Trinity College Dublin and the University of Dublin including revisions to 22 May 2024" (PDF). Trinity College Dublin. Retrieved 28 July 2024.
  • there are multiple divisions: Preliminary, General, College, Governance, University, Staff, Community, Conduct. Note that:-
    • Preliminary includes
      • Preface, which has some historical detail
      • Preamble, begins "Recalling that, by Charter in 1592, its Founder established a College, mother of a University, for the better education training and instruction of scholars and students"
    • General s. 17 "Definitions" includes
      • "College" -- zzz
      • "University" -- zzz
    • College and University are both in the Statutes as separate sections
      • "College" Schedule 1
        • 1(1) "The Letters Patent of 1857 and 1911 confirmed that College’s power in the Charters of 1592 and 1637 to award Degrees and thus to confer degrees is to be exercised by the University, and this is provided for in the Chapter on the University."
        • 2(1) "academic qualifications other than Degrees awarded by College"
      • "Degrees" 3(1) "The Degrees and other academic qualifications awarded by the University"
    • other sections are distinct from both --- maybe because they relate to both College and University rather than because they relate to neither?

1999 private bill

• Trinity College, Dublin (Charters and Letters Patent Amendment) Act/Bill P1 of 2000/1997
  • seanad
    • S1 1998-02-23
    • Rpt from ExBills 1998-03-05
    • Ref ExBills Rpt to JtCtteeSOs 1998-03-05
    • Rpt JtCtteeSOs re SO46 1998-10-01
    • Msg of JtCtteeSOs re SO46 1998-10-15
    • Motion re SO46 for bill 1998-10-15
    • S2 1998-11-06
    • Motion#1 for JtCttee 1998-11-06
    • Msg of Dáil motion#1 1998-12-09
    • Motion#2 for JtCttee 1998-12-09
    • Msg of JtCtteeSOs nominees to JtCtteeBill 1999-02-04
    • JtCttee report 2000-03-01 (proceedings started 1999-07-06)
    • Laying rpt 2000-03-09
    • RptS 2000-04-18
    • RptS (ctd) 2000-04-18
    • RptS (ctd) + FinS 2000-06-28
  • dail
    • Rpt from ExBills 1998-03-26
    • Ref ExBills Rpt to JtCtteeSOs 1998-03-26
    • Msg of JtCtteeSOs re SO46 — per Rpt JtCtteeSOs p.1 "Ordered, by the Dáil, to be printed, the 8th October, 1998." but not in 1998-10-08 index
      • Rpt JtCtteeSOs probably only related to Seanad, in which case motion re SO46 for bill not made in Dáil — may explain why not in Dáil proceedings even though Ordered to be printed. OTOH JtCtee on SOs rel to Priv Bus (2012) Rpt on Rev of SOs r.t. Pr.B. 1939 notes that a single set of SOs apply to both Dáil and Seanad; indeed SO#93 of 1923 SOs (probably still in the 1939 ones active in 2012) provided that "when the Joint Committee has reported on a private Bill, and the Bill has been passed by the Senate, the first, second, and third stages in the Dáil shall be deemed to have been passed, and the Bill is only sent to the Dáil for final consideration". SOs final replaced in 2022 (rpt + draft 2022-12-14 Dáil res 2022-12-15 Sean res)
    • Msg of Seanad motion#1 + Dáil motion#1 for JtCttee 1998-12-03
    • Msg of Seanad motion#2 + Dáil motion#2 for JtCttee 1998-12-16 (erroneously dated as 1998-02-16 in JtCttee report!)
    • Msg of JtCtteeSOs nominees to JtCtteeBill (Richard Bruton, O'Malley and Roche)
    • Laying JtCtteeBill rpt 2000-04-12
    • RptS + FinS 2000-10-26

irishstatutebook

• s.1 “the College” means the College of the Holy and Undivided Trinity of Queen Elizabeth near Dublin established by the Foundation Charter of 1592, and shall be held to include the University of Dublin save where the context otherwise requires in accordance with the charters and letters patent relating to Trinity College