100menonmars

100menonmars, you are invited to the Teahouse

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Removal of sourced content from article

Hello, I'm Peacemaker67. I noticed that you recently removed some content from 27th Motorised Division Brescia without explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; I restored the removed content. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks! Peacemaker67 (send... over) 23:47, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

http://www.comandosupremo.com

G'day, you appear to be using http://www.comandosupremo.com extensively across a range of articles relating to the Italian Army in WWII. Could you please establish the reliability of that website as a source before using it any further? I am very concerned that it is currently unavailable, and that it has been used so widely, in almost every case to establish the high quality of Italian units. Some of the material seems to reflect Radio Berlin and Radi Rome transmissions during the war, which would obviously be completely unacceptable as a reliable source. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 05:34, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

No I haven't been using material from that website. I have been using books written by British, Australian and American authors. Who has made that claim? And where is the proof?--100menonmars (talk) 06:23, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

My mistake, I saw that you had removed sourced information, and the diff showed the use of the website, but it is clear the citation was already there. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:34, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Second Battle of El Alamein

100menonmars, I have noticed that you have made a number of additions to Second Battle of El Alamein recently. Your changes to add more information on Italian units is commendable, but can I draw you attention to Wikipedia:CITEVAR? Your additional citations do not follow the existing citation style. Hamish59 (talk) 11:43, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks I'll study and learn the styles and start fixing it all up when I'm free from work this weekend. Greatly appreciated.--100menonmars (talk) 03:46, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

No worries. Hamish59 (talk) 09:27, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Operation Brevity

Hi, while i do not doubt you are correct. The source in use, as far as i am aware and i grant it has been a while since i read it, does not support the minor edit you made. As the article is at FA standard, I would like to ask that you provide a source to support your addition before you reinsert it. That way, we can keep the standard of the article up and improve its information quality and list of sources. Regards EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:42, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

As i still have access to the article in question, i have just re-viewed it. It pretty much states just what the article does, but does not specify that the detachment were anti-tank gunners. Again, this is a great piece of detail to add ... if we have a source for it.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:48, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I disagree. I think we should come to a fair settlement regarding this matter. It is clear that not all the Bersaglieri were killed, unless you believe otherwise or want to water down this German praise and make it look like cheap German propaganda? I plan to reinsert the bit about the praise really going to the anti-tank gunners. Maybe you can add a reference request about the praise going to the anti-tank gunners. --100menonmars (talk) 23:55, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Reinserting unsourced material into an FA standard article will be reverted. The article is at FA standard because it has met the criteria for sourcing and referencing. Adding unsourced material will water down the article quality. I suggest you take your concern to the article's talkpage, and once agreement has been reached there - with sources - then adding it to the article.

A few points: One editor removed the sentence, at one point, because he highlighted it was German propaganda. His words: "the quote is from Radio Berlin 1941 - Goebbles mouthpiece - not a reliable source". At some point in time, maybe i did i do not remember, it was reinserted into the article because literally what is in the article was published by the New York Times: a reliable source. That source does not mention anti-tank gunners, it does not elaborate on how many died etc it says exactly what it says in the article. So, how do you know that the Italian detachment, at the pass, were anti-tank gunners? If that question cannot be answered with a source, then the next question would be: does it really matter (they are, after all, from the same unit that the praise is being give too)?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:30, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Okay I can live with it, especially since you now tell me someone tried to have this special German praise removed. I will though elaborate on what von Herff had to say about Montemurro and his men, and eventually, God permitting, reveal in more detail the role of the anti-tank gunners under Montemurro.--100menonmars (talk) 01:11, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Based off your recent edit to the Battleaxe article, I have a suspicion that the German praise maybe for Italian action during that op rather than Brevity. I will redownload the article later and look for dates etc to make sure we have it in the right article.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 17:04, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I have updated the role of the Italians during Operation Brevity. An Italian government website to do with the Medaglia d'Oro awarded to military personnel under Mussolini and later to communist partisans!, claims the 8th Bersaglieri Regiment were involved in the action on 15 May 1941. Also authors Jack Greene, ‎Alessandro Massignani, and Robert Lyman claim in their books that the Bersaglieri under Montemurro fought at Halfaya Pass and disabled several tanks, and that Montemurro was awarded a German medal. Thanks for your input. I appreciate your attention to detail. .--100menonmars (talk) 01:09, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the additions to the article. I am going to incorporate some of the text you have added, so its not hidden away in the citation, as it complements the article quite well. In addition, i have just checked the Times article: it confirms the action, Herff is complementing too place on the 15th, so Brevity.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:25, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

February 2015

Please do not add or change content, as you did to Operation Compass, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. (Hohum ^@) 17:38, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Greco-Italian War. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:

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In anticipation of the German attack, the British and some Greeks urged a withdrawal of the army of Epirus to spare badly needed troops and equipment to repel the Germans. However, national sentiment forbade the abandonment of such hard-won positions. The mentality that retreat in the face of the Italians would be disgraceful and overriding military logic caused them to ignore the British warning. Therefore, 15 divisions, the bulk of the Greek army, were left deep in Albania as German forces approached. General Wilson derided this reluctance as "the fetishistic doctrine that not a yard of ground should be yielded to the Italians"; only six of the 21 Greek divisions were left to oppose the German attack. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Italian_War#cite_note-64

Topics relating to Greece are covered by WP:ARBMAC

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Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:19, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

February 2015

Please stop attacking other editors, as you did on Talk:Greco-Italian War. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. The thread is Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:100menonmars reported by User:Dr.K. (Result: ). Thank you. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:32, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring at Greco-Italian War

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 31 hours for edit warring. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the following text below this notice: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}. However, you should read the guide to appealing blocks first.

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The full report is at WP:AN3#User:100menonmars reported by User:Dr.K. (Result: Blocked). Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 00:15, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Bardia

I saw your comments regarding prisoners taken at Bardia. A couple of points, i would caution you that editors - despite the rhetoric and grandiose claims - do not back up their words with actual evidence, concise arguments, and twist everything to suit their own agenda. Not to mention, advocating the uncritical use of primary sources is appalling considering their alleged background. But, i digress.

As for your actual comments about the number of prisoners being around 25,000 rather than the supposed 45,000 being claimed, and the evidence to support this in part being British newspapers. I believe your claim is somewhat naive and on shaky ground. I do not know if you are aware, but the British library has undertaken a project (www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk) to digitize as many national, regional, and local newspapers (dating back over the last few hundred years), so i was able to locate the newspaper in question. The 6 Jan 1941 edition of the Aberdeen Journal, claims 25,000 prisoners taken following Bardia's fall. Primary sources are the key to history, but one cannot take them on face value*. One has to be critical and ask questions. For instance, what is their source for such a claim? The paper was only printed the day after Bardia was captured, was the information they were given up to date? Was information held back? In a partial answer to this, one can highlight the 5 Jan 41 edition of the Sunday Post, for example, that only claims 8,000 men were captured. Surely, it would seem, that the media was only reporting what was being fed to them as it came in. Do we know how long it took to tally up the prisoners from Bardia? Was the press ever given the full figure (searching found nothing else) and was it overshadowed by other events?

This brings us to your other piece of evidence: the British communiques. They are accessible via JSTOR. Again, a critical look at the document shows that it does not actually undermine higher figures. The Outline of Military Operations, dated 5 January, and in regards to North and East Africa, specifically states "Prisoners counted so far numbered over 25,000...". My emphasis in bold. The next edition does not revisit this to bring us the final tally. More than likely, the final tally will be in the Kew National Archives alongside the likes of the detail accounts kept of German prisoners taken in Europe.

Moving to what is possibly one of the earliest secondary sources on the subject, the Australian Official History; it states at the time a "precise number ... taken at Bardia [could not] be established" and a "communique published after the battle gave the Italian losses ... at 44,868." However, it cautions "This was the 'ration strength' of the force in Bardia at 26th December according to a captured document." It continues, "the actual numbers of prisoners and dead (even assuming their ration strength to have been correctly estimated ...) must have been somewhat lower..." and concludes "prisoners probably numbered about 40,000." The Australian history moves on, and notes that the Italian General Staff, on 15th January, compiled a casualty report and acknowledged the loss of 80,465 men in the "Sidi Barrani-Bardia operations, including some 14,000 Libyan troops". These Italian figures are used for a further estimate on losses at Bardia, placing them at 41,165. So we have one of the earliest works (just as flawed as all official histories are - lacking citations, lacking access to all available sources, lacing access to claissfied information, generalizing, etc) and that does not claim as high as 45,000 men captured and acknowledges that there probably wasn't even 45,000 men inside Bardia. It is interesting to note the Italian figure: did they get it right? Was it ever revised (up or down). If only 25,000 men were captured at Bardia, it would leave a lot of missing Italians that would need to be accounted for.

It is interesting to note that while the figure of 45,000 is often repeated (by historians of all nationalities) - as seen via Google Books - the lower figure of 36,000 is repeated just as much. In what is perhaps one of the most recent and well sourced works on the battle, an Australian - Craig Stockings - uses the figure of 36,000 captured. Unfortunately, one cannot see the source of this figure via Google books and i do not have access to a local copy. This attacks another of your points, and should be used as a caution for the future, that nationality does not automatically equal bias against an old foe (something Thucydides taught us long ago).

While you are clearly interested in the Desert War, i trust your future research will be more critical. Regards. EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC) (*)Stockings highlights that during the siege of Bardia, the Italian propaganda machine went into overdrive. Italian newspapers reported that 250,000 Allied troops were assaulting the city, and inflicting barbaric treatment upon any men captured. If we are to take an uncritical approach of British newspapers, one has to do the same with the Italian ones and suddenly we have a very ludicrous situation on our hands.

EnigmaMcmxc Your comments are much appreciated and I do thank you very much in trying to help in the last few days. I must admit you are very intelligent, and do posses a vast bank of knowledge. Anyway, I agree that the official histories are essential, but I would like to point out that the Australian official history wasn't entirely honest when it wrote off the success of the Italian Trento Division on 17 July 1942, when the survivors of an Australian company were trapped and surrendered to the Italians. The Australian official history reports that just “two forward platoons of the 2/32nd’s left company were overrun, 22 men were taken prisoner”, and falsely claims that "Germans" captured the Australians. Also the New Zealand official history omits the role of the Ariete and supporting Bersaglieri battalion in the capture of The Buffs Regiment during Operation Crusader, making it look like the Italians pretty much sat on their hands all day, and that just Germans delivered the attack. According to the Wikipedia page to do with the Second Battle of Alamein, the British official history doesn't recognize that the Trento captured all or part of Hill 28 on 26 October, forcing an Australian battalion to retreat. Fortunately Rommel does recognize this Italian achievement. American historian James Sadkovich blames these omissions and half-truths on "Anglo-Saxon racism" and Australian historian Mark Johnston reports that that "there was an "unwillingness to acknowledge reverses against Italians" in Australian official accounts. I can find grave omissions and the Italians treated with absolute contempt in every battle, and it's not just me as the following page points out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Italianism#World_War_II

But I'm not here to argue with you, I respect you too much for that. But yes the Australian and New Zealand official histories are very important, as well as the newspapers and official communiques of the time, that helped me discover that HMS Sikh was hit by Italian coastal batteries during Operation Agreement, according to the British survivors. And yes, I don't accept everything the Italians claim also, especially if it isn't backed by Allied communiques, Allied veterans in their recollections in books, newspaper interviews,etc. And I also dig into Allied battalion war diaries to verify Axis and Allied claims. When it comes to the numbers of Italians captured, yes once must not omit the higher number Australian authors claim in their books. Saying that I would like to point out there is no real agreement among British and American war books, documentaries and veterans, when it comes to the number of Axis soldiers they say were captured in the last two weeks of the North African campaign in May 1943 and after the Axis withdrawal across the straits of Messina after Operation Husky ended in an Allied victory. --100menonmars (talk) 08:09, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Greetings 100 Men and Enigma, The BOH (1954) gives 25,000 so I wonder if prisoners were being put in the bag all over the place and then moved towards water, which could explain the 15,000 discrepancy between Playfair and Long?Keith-264 (talk) 21:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea why such a big difference. But just like The Battle of Goose Green in 1982, the British claimed at the time and in the post war decades a to have captured 1,400-1,600 Argentines, but Lawrence Freedman who wrote the British Official History of The Falklands, concluded that the real number of Argentine POWs was 961. But then again the Italians could by trying to minimize their losses and the British exaggerating their win.--100menonmars (talk) 21:57, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi menonmars, can we please make contact by private email. I have something to discuss with you. Also, if you want a very interesting article about Bardia, I can email it to you. Please email me if possible. If you do not have a wiki email, your personal one will do. regards and happy editing.AnnalesSchool (talk) 11:15, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes you can contact me through fanteriaitaliana@gmail.com and yes anything to do with the Italian fight at Bardia would be greatly appreciated.--100menonmars (talk) 23:05, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Italian divisions in North Africa

I notice you have been active on the following articles: 17th Motorised Division Pavia, 25th Motorised Division Bologna, and 27th Motorised Division Brescia. I have made requests to have them all moved to more appropriate article names. If you would like to comment, please see their talk pages.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:16, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

March 2015

You missed out the book title for the reference for the Italian submarine involvement (Hohum ^@) 01:21, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

The title is World War II Sea War, Volume 3: The Royal Navy is Bloodied in the Mediterranean. --100menonmars (talk) 01:35, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Tobruk

I noticed your reversions. The page is in such a mess that I've been doing a re-edit here User:Keith-264/sandbox4Keith-264 (talk) 21:49, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Had a look, lot of work being done on your part which is pretty good I must say.--100menonmars (talk) 03:39, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, you're not so bad yourself. I've been doing a lot of tidying on the Western Desert articles. If you want more detail on Wiki about the siege, it would make a good hub for other articles, like the Twin Pimples and Bardia Raid pages. I've got the Sommenblume section to finish and then the Tobruk side of Crusader and it'll be ready for a viewing. Was it you that added the contemporary references to Oz newspapers to the existing article?Keith-264 (talk) 06:38, 28 March 2015 (UTC)