174.215.219.158

Hello, I'm Moriwen. Thank you for your contributions to The Mall at Short Hills. I appreciate the effort you made for our project, but unfortunately I had to undo your edit(s) because I believe the article was better before you made that change. Feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions. Thank you!

— Moriwen (talk) 00:14, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

ANI notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Alansohn (talk) 00:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Lists of tenants at shopping malls

As part of your mass reverts, you have used edit summaries that claim "These are notable for this center", "This isn't questionable enough to warrant a source", "Even the mall website states how these stores are exclusive to the region".

Wikipedia:WikiProject Shopping Centers/Anchors and tenants says to "avoid including tenant lists" in general, "unless such tenants are noteworthy in the context of that particular shopping centre, and the tenant references assist in establishing the notability of the center". Furthermore, it says that we should not "repeat information about a particular tenant that is not unique to the mall in question".

• Can you explain why the lists of tenants that you've restored are noteworthy?
• Why is a mall directory an adequate source for such lists of tenants?
• Can you explain why Wikipedia on verifiability doesn't apply here in insisting that no source of any kind is needed?
• Why should details about Lord & Taylor being an upscale specialty retailer be listed in every article and not only in the article for the chain itself?
• Can you explain why you reverted articles with edit summaries that show you didn't review the changes? Alansohn (talk) 12:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Hello. These stores are noteworthy for these malls which is why they're to be included, they're either unique to the center, the only stores in the region or in the chain. I feel this is general common knowledge for the most part. Lord & Taylor was a smaller chain based in the northeast and quite a unique retailer, I feel it's necessary to describe it. By the way I did not get to introduce myself. I am particularly interested in the evolution of malls. I look forward to working with you. I apologize for not taking this to your talk page. 174.215.219.158 (talk) 12:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• It's best to keep the discussion on a single page. If you ping me in your reply (using {{U|Alansohn}}), I'll see your response. It is genuinely possible that these stores are noteworthy to be included, but there are no such claims being made nor are there any sources to support the claims of noteworthy-ness, let alone the reliable and verifiable sources required by Wikipedia. This edit to Willowbrook Mall and this one for Oakbrook Center only show that there is a fundamental lack of understanding of the issues involved. In both cases, the only source for the list of retailers is the mall's website. Those edits had been reverted by informing you that "its notability is questionable enough to require a secondary source, not a primary one". Even where other editors have stepped in and explained the issues, you have kept on reverting to your preferred version, which appears to violate both consensus for the Shopping Center project as well as fundamental Wikipedia policy. Alansohn (talk) 13:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  Alansohn I strongly feel that this is all common knowledge for the most part. One of the editors wanted to keep the converted numbers which I left, and the other left no explanation. All of the stores are verifiable by a source. Their notability is common knowledge I still strongly feel. Regards. 174.215.219.158 (talk) 13:34, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• It simply isn't common knowledge. They are verifiable in that they exist, but the claim that these stores are "noteworthy in the context of that particular shopping centre, and the tenant references assist in establishing the notability of the center" is simply not met. You need reliable and verifiable references to show that each of the stores listed meets that requirement and using the mall directory is simply inadequate for that purpose. Alansohn (talk) 13:40, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  Alansohn There aren't sources for ONE of each store but rather the entire list included in the references. Every article I've edited there is at least one reference for each page which verifies the notability of the list of stores. 174.215.219.158 (talk) 13:45, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

(e/c)

• Perhaps you're not seeing the difference between a store being notable, and the fact that the store is a tenant in a particular mall being notable. Often, when you feel something is "common knowledge" and "isn't questionable enough to warrant a source", yet other editors disagree, it means there is some nuance that isn't being appreciated. You assert that they are noteworthy for the mall because "they're either unique to the center, the only stores in the region or in the chain". It's fair to ask for a secondary source for this. I'm not sure what the only store in the chain could mean, but being the only store in the region is usually not remarkable; either for maximum profitability of the main "holding company", or stipulated in an agreement with franchise owners, it is routine for chains to restrict the territory in which individual stores operate, of course to ensure that the store is the only one in the region. To establish notability, Wikipedia relies on secondary sources, a reliable and independent source that has taken note of something as confirmation that they think it is noteworthy. It can be frustrating for an editor to have personal knowledge, or a personal conviction of something they feel is obvious. In many cases the editor is right, but Wikipedia still needs the sources. It's not that Wikipedia thinks you are wrong, it's just that you have to help Wikipedia vouch for your edit. _signed, Willondon (talk) 14:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Willondon It is quite significant for these brands to have the only stores in the entire region. These stores are in fact notable for being in that particular mall. Every article I've edited there is at least one secondary source for each page which verifies the notability of the list of stores being at that particular mall. 174.215.219.158 (talk) 14:19, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

How is it significant, especially given my comment above that retailers routinely ensure that a store is the only one in the region? This is why we rely on secondary sources to say that something is significant. _signed, Willondon (talk) 14:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Willondon Because there are very few stores in existence, meaning they're very selective, and they're mainly also described as being notable or an accomplishment for each center.174.215.219.158 (talk) 14:29, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

(P.S. No need to ping. This page is on my watchlist.)
Part of the issue is "tenant lists", so I'd like us to be more specific than referring to stores with "they" or "these". When you appeal to other sources saying a store is notable as a tenant (not just notable or exclusive as a store in general), "they" certainly doesn't apply to all of the long list of stores (a directory, it would seem) which you've included in the articles. Again, I think you are conflating a store being notable for something with the store being notable as a tenant in the mall that the article is about. In articles about a mall, we don't just need notable or an accomplishment for the center, we need notable and an accomplishment for the mall. _signed, Willondon (talk) 15:09, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I understand however thats exactly what these are, both noteworthy and an accomplishment. The only stores worth mentioning satisfy both of these qualities. 174.215.219.158 (talk) 15:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Again, we need sources for that, not just an editor's say-so. Again, it's not that Wikipedia thinks you are wrong, you just have to help Wikipedia vouch for your edits. _signed, Willondon (talk) 15:15, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

The stores I've added come directly from references. I refrained from adding too many however I've gone ahead and already done so. 174.215.219.158 (talk) 15:16, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the stories (in some cases) do come from references, but they are of the entirely generic "Store Opens at Mall" variety. If the sources describe "First ABC Store in Midwest Region Opens at XYZ Mall" or "New Anchor at XYZ Mall" or "Largest ABC Store Opens at XYZ Mall", you've got a case. But the sources that you've been adding don't support a claim that the details belong in an encyclopdic article. They're run of the mill, routine coverage. And they certainly don't support the lists of stores that have been sourced to a mall directory or are simply left unsourced with "everyone knows" as an edit summary. Alansohn (talk) 16:57, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Edit warring warning

A bright-line policy (see WP:3RR) restricts editors from engaging in edit wars and simply undoing edits by others.

You are at 3RR at Oakbrook Center: Revert 1, 2 and 3

You are at 3RR at Willowbrook Mall (New Jersey): Revert 1, 2 and 3.

Engaging in an edit war while claiming to discuss the issues is not helping and could subject you to editing blocks. Alansohn (talk) 13:37, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

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