Addypreston

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Film rentals

Hello there, Addypreston. You're doing a great job so far adding/correcting theatrical rentals for certain films from the 1930s and 1940s. Keep up the good work. - 1996Larry (talk) 17:12, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! I'd collected PDFs of all the Variety charts and found myself going down that rabbit hole. Just now took a week to re-calibrate, as I located copies of other authoritative references for cross-checking, so will resume soon. Saw your reference to the Fragias Kindle book. Don't have that yet, but do you offhand know the sources used for their numbers? Addypreston (talk) 20:48, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Not so sure, Addypreston, but thanks very much for replying to me. As I said, keep up the good work. - 1996Larry (talk) 20:27, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

By the way, Addypreston, is there any chance you could send to me some film grosses from 1932? Film grosses from that year are very scarce. Please reply to me whenever you can. - 1996Larry (talk) 20:39, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

I have good references for box office numbers for about 50 movies from 1932 (studio ledgers, Variety estimates, that type of thing), and semi-reliable numbers for another 75. But those other 75 aren't sourced well enough for me to say I fully trust them. Being a bit of a data nerd, I like to cross reference things like that before putting any level of real trust in it. Overlapping data from more trustworthy data I have generally correlates with other data from the same source as those extra 75, but there are exceptions that make me hesitant. I've reached out to the source, but haven't heard back yet. Similarly, I'm trying to evaluate that Fragias Kindle book you cited. I went ahead and sprung for it, and sadly they list no sources so it's another mystery. What's in there is kind of a hodge-podge. I can spot sources for some specific items, but it's not consistent. Some numbers from here, some from there, and even from a specific source like the Mannix ledger a few numbers are quoted, but many are omitted or use different numbers altogether. Not being able to identify sources or consistency in a lot of those numbers, I very much hesitate to use it as a reliable reference yet. I may try to reach out to the author to get some answers. No problem sharing data and comparing notes. I'm sure you've probably found some interesting sources I've yet to locate, too. Addypreston (talk) 03:11, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I certainly have found some interesting sources, Addypreston. There were some fantastic films released back in 1932 like A Farewell to Arms, but its Wikipedia page only displays its budget and not its gross. Anyway, thanks very much for replying to me. - 1996Larry (talk) 05:41, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Variety published their A Farewell to Arms estimate as $1 million gross (domestic rentals). As best I can tell a secondary source has it at around $1.5 million, but they don't make their raw numbers available. They translate everything to from rentals to box office and the formula they use is not apparent. It's not a fixed ratio in any way I can see, even within any year. I pretty much use them as one of my yellow-flag lists to check to see if other data I'm finding is way out of line and needs further research. I'll go to that page and add my Variety reference on it. Addypreston (talk) 23:18, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks very much, Addypreston. – 1996Larry (talk) 08:01, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello again, Addypreston. I was wondering if you could give me the Variety all-time film rentals for the 1932 film The Sign of the Cross. Its Wikipedia pages gives its box office gross as $2,738,993, but I'm assuming that's its worldwide rentals. 1996Larry (talk) 16:46, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Variety has it at 2,738,000. The article preceding the Variety list specifically states "film rentals generated at theaters in the U.S. and Canada" and "foreign film rentals and ancillary revenues are not included". I see that the Wikipedia reference is that DeMille book I've also seen referenced elsewhere. It's partially available to sample on Google Books, but the sample only goes up to 1917. The thing is, that book only references "cost" and "gross" for each film. It does not break down domestic vs. worldwide. The book is from 2004, and the Variety list is about 15 years earlier, but the book includes data for a lot of movies not in the Variety list. So I'd conclude that they both used the same third source for this film, and I don't know if that's identified in the book. IF it's accurately the domestic box office, from what I see that would make it the highest-grossing movie of that year. However, the MGM (Mannix) ledgers for that year show significant proportions of their grosses coming from foreign rentals, sometimes (e.g. Grand Hotel) more than domestic. So that casts doubt on whether Paramount would have had zero earnings on foreign rentals for "Cross". Hmmm.

Another interesting one from 1932 is Horse Feathers. Do you have a decent source on that one? Addypreston (talk) 20:34, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't, Addypreston. Thanks very much for replying to me. Chat to you again soon. Keep up the good work. - 1996Larry (talk) 21:09, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello again, Addypreston. I was wondering if you could provide the domestic rentals for 1947's The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer and 1948's Joan of Arc, using the RKO film grosses ledger. Please reply to me as soon as you can. - 1996Larry (talk) 11:09, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Will look those up. Meanwhile, located that DeMille book (Cecil B. DeMille's Hollywood, Robert S. Birchard) and confirmed that it lists $2,738,993 gross (strangely precise!) and cost of $694,064. Addypreston (talk) 00:18, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

title cost-domestic-foreign-total-profit (all in thousands)

B&tBS 1961-4200-1350-5550-700

JoA ??-2525-3500-6025-(50)

cost of JoA is not given since it was produced by Sierra, only distributed by RKO

Kind of curious about the urgency? Have no problem sharing the data no matter what you're doing with it, but curiosity is strong. Addypreston (talk) 00:26, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks very much for replying to me, Addypreston. Anyway, I was wondering if you could confirm if the grosses for Grace Moore's films One Night of Love (1934) and Love Me Forever (1935) located in Leonidas Fragias' Kindle Ebook "Annual US Top Film Rentals 1912 - 1979" are the same as those in Variety's "All-Time Film Rental Champs" from 1990. Thanks anyway for correcting the domestic gross for Broadway Bill. Chat to you again soon. 1996Larry (talk) 05:49, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Whoa. I did not realize that was you who had the budget/gross swapped on Broadway Bill. You added that Variety Oct. 1990 reference back in Aug 2020. I've seen a few movies now that listed that as a reference, and when I looked the movie in question wasn't in the list. Was wondering if somehow Variety had another edition of that list. Just an "oops?", or is there an extended version of that list somewhere? Addypreston (talk) 23:20, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Regarding One Night of Love and Love Me Forever, those are two good examples of why I was wondering about sources in that Fragias book and disappointed that they weren't listed. I have nothing to corroborate either of those figures, so I'm very curious about whether he located some source I've yet to find. I'm very hesitant to use sources that can't be cross-referenced elsewhere. That would just set up a circular trap that adds a level of validation to something that's possibly incorrect.

Cogerson has a different number (equates to about 1.12m) for One Night of Love, but his source is likewise mysterious. Neither movie shows in the 1990 Variety list. They say their cutoff in that era for the list was $1 million, so they presumably have both movies below that threshold domestically ("domestic" could be the significant difference with some alternate source). Over the years there were several movies for which Variety downgraded their previous estimates, including a couple articles about their reasons. So it's also possible that Variety itself had estimates in some issue back in the 30's for those movies that were higher, but later they adjusted them below the $1m cut-off before that 1990 list.

If you have any further knowledge about the Fragias lists and sources, let me know. I've had no luck yet tracking him down. I went through several years and was able to match a decent percentage of those lists to some Variety list or to the available studio ledgers. But it's inconsistent* and there are quite a few where I can't find any source at all to cross-reference. It'd be nice to use that book as a source, but not until I'm more sure of the accuracy of some of those numbers.

(By inconsistent, I mean for example that for movies where both Variety and Mannix ledger numbers are available, many use Mannix over Variety, but some skip the Mannix value and use Variety for some unknown reason. Same with other ledgers.)

I've acquired additional sources in recent days and I'm still trolling for more, so I'll let you know if I find something interesting regarding any of these particular films. Addypreston (talk) 00:00, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Just edited Bachelor and Bobby-Soxer for more complete references to the RKO data. The appendix with the actual data appears to only be available in a separate document from the article, so someone following the link to the article won't find the actual numbers referenced. Will also check Joan of Arc for the same. Addypreston (talk) 02:23, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks very much, Addypreston. I'll remember to use more reliable sources when updating film grosses on any particular page of a movie. Chat to you again some other time. 1996Larry (talk) 05:58, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

I have a spreadsheet that includes almost all those movies in the Fragias book that can be used to correlate all those numbers with their sources. In many cases it can point to a more credible source, if indeed the studio ledgers are taken as more credible over Variety, et al. It also shows which numbers in the Fragias book don't match up with anything I've found so far, if you're interested in helping to hunt down those sources. You can DM me privately on Twitter as @addyprest. Addypreston (talk) 16:28, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Addypreston, I don't have a Twitter account, but thanks very much for reminding me about the spreadsheet. Chat to you again soon. 1996Larry (talk) 18:08, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello again, Addypreston. I was wondering if you could locate the domestic rentals for 1925's The Merry Widow and 1930's The Big House using the Eddie Mannix Ledger. The pages of these films only give the total worldwide gross instead of the domestic and foreign. Reply to me whenever you get a chance. 1996Larry (talk) 17:30, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, those figures for The Merry Widow and The Big House correctly match the Mannix ledger worldwide numbers. The Merry Widow number is rounded from Mannix's 1.933 million. I'll edit that in a sec and clarify that it's for worldwide rentals. Addypreston (talk) 00:09, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Addypreston, and could you please also add in the domestic rentals for both films? 1996Larry (talk) 05:47, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Done. Addypreston (talk) 20:05, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks again, Addypreston. As I mentioned to you earlier on, I'll try to be very careful when adding references for box office rentals grosses again on Wikipedia. You're very good at identifying movies I have included in the highest grossing films lists on certain year in film pages, but which are not in the "All Time Film Rental Champs" list from 1990. Nice chatting with you today. Enjoy the rest of your week. 1996Larry (talk) 20:12, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Addypreston, I was wondering if you locate the domestic and foreign rentals for MGM's 1938 film Marie Antoinette, using the Eddie Mannix ledger, as well as the domestic, foreign and total worldwide rentals for RKO's 1941 films The Little Foxes and Ball of Fire, using the RKO ledger. Reply to me as soon as you get a chance. 1996Larry (talk) 14:42, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

I looked those up and put them in. Also corrected Variety page number on Caught in the Draft, switched Pride of the Yankees to more precise RKO numbers, and switched Back Street to Variety citation. However you'll need to go back and find your sources for 1941's Nothing but the Truth and Road to Zanzibar, as the Variety citation you used does not list those movies and I was unable to find any adequate box office source for either. Addypreston (talk) 19:24, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Addypreston. Hope to chat with you again sometime next week. Keep up the good work and enjoy your weekend. 1996Larry (talk) 19:28, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello again, Addypreston. Great to see you back up and running again. 1996Larry (talk) 20:17, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Hello again, and happy belated New Year to you, Addypreston. I was wondering if the 1934 Eddie Cantor film "Kid Millions" is listed in Variety's 1990 "All Time Film Rental Champs" list. The ebook "Annual US Top Film Rentals 1912 - 1979" by Leonidas Fragias gives its rentals as $1.1 million, but I'm not so sure what Variety gives it. Reply to me as soon as you get a chance. Kind regards. 1996Larry (talk) 15:04, 5 February 2023 (UTC)