Ahulandiy

Dear Anonymous

Today you erased the number of speakers from the infobox. I have restored it. Also, I have adapted your proposal for the leader text. To be sure, Tashelhiyt is not spoken "by the majority of Moroccans". I have kept the word "majority", which is apparently important to you, but I have clarified the text. Maybe you could get yourself a username (its quite easy!) so we can discuss matters face to face, as it were. (Ahulandiy, 16 January 2016)

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July 2015

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Reference errors on 7 September

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Shilha

Hello Kwami,

Nice to hear from you. I'll leave out the unique claims. See also the revised text in the article Shilha literature. There are indeed a few living African languages with an old literature, but apart from Ge'ez, it isn't much ("practically unique" means "almost"). Surprisingly, the oldest datable preserved manuscripts from the area are the sorabe from Madagaskar...

I also noticed that the IPA signs are not a big problem; it's the non-IPA signs such as ḍ ḥ ṣ ṭ ẓ that sometimes become invisible. Any suggestion about how to mend that?

"Ašlḥiy" means "male speker of Silha", and "Tašlḥiyt" means "a female speaker of Shilha". I'll add quotes for clarity.

Regards, Ahulandiy (talk) 09 September 2015

I've looked at the Template: Unicode page, but still have no idea how it works. I'll look into that later. (Note: I'm practically a computer-illiterate; the fact that I'm able to edit a page at all is already quite a surprise to myself…).

About the unique stuff: I should have made a clearer statement. What I meant is, first, unique among the *living* languages, and, second, the uniqueness of Shilha is not in the fact that it has a precolonial literature at all, but that some Shilha texts that are preserved in manuscripts are definitely much older than texts in other languages such as Hausa or Swahili. I've handled a few manuscripts in Fulfulde and Hausa, and they all dated to the second half of the 19th century or after (they are written on a type of European paper invented in the late 1800s). Shilha on the other hand has manuscript texts dated or datable to the late 1500s, the 1600s and a lot from the 1700s. In short: there's more, and it's older.

The holdings of the fabled libraries at Timbuktu are generally much younger than sometimes thought. Someone who actually saw those manuscripts told me that most of them are from the 19th and 20th centuries, the majority of them copies of school textbooks (introductions to Arabic grammar such as the Ājurrūmiyyah, introductions to Maliki law like the Tuḥfat Ibn ʿĀṣim, etc.). Boring stuff really. There are rumours about 16th century copies of texts in Tuareg, but I haven't seen any verifyable data on that.

Whether an ašlḥiy should be defined linguistically or ethnically is a good question. The practical approach would be to say that an ašlḥiy is someone who says he's an ašlḥiy. It'd be interesting to qustion some native speakers on this issue. For example, there are quite a few black people living in the Shilha area whose only language is Shilha, but I think it's unlikely that they would describe themselves as išlḥiyn; non-black speakers usually refer to them as isuqiyn (lit. "market people [i.e., bought and sold in the market]"], or even bluntly as ismgan "slaves". So with them, ethnicity (that is, skin color) seems to take precedence over language skills.

Ahulandiy (talk) 11 September 2015

Okay. Glad you're familiar with the manuscripts of the area. Maybe a more detailed description would prevent the impression that precolonial Africa was illiterate apart from the Shilha (and presumably the Arabs), and also prevent the (now obviously false) impression that I as the reader knows more of the subject than you as the writer.

Given that ašlḥiy doesn't literally mean a Shilha-speaker, and ethnicity is not the same as language competency, maybe we should also say that Asusiy is "one from Sous" rather than a "speaker" from Sous, and likewise that Adrawiy is "one from Draa". — kwami (talk) 16:54, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

{{Unicode}} should take care of the dotted letters. But IPA *is* a problem for people on some browsers. That's why we have the template. (And even for those that render the characters correctly, they may be taken from different fonts, making for an ugly display. The template fixes that.)

Many languages have different words used by males and females. A Japanese woman would not say ore for "I", and a Japanese man would not say atasi. That's what the Shilha description sounded like.

Shilha-speakers, and not ethnic Shilha? If I learn to speak Shilha, would that make me ašlḥiy? And if a child of Shilha parents only speaks Arabic, but thinks of himself as Berber, does that mean he's not ašlḥiy?

There are many languages with pre-colonial literature, often inspired by Arabic, not the least other Berber languages. There are libraries in Timbuktu. There's Nubian. Kanuri. Fula. Songhai. Swahili. — kwami (talk) 23:28, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Please stop claiming that Shilha is unique in Africa for having a precolonial literary tradition. If you knew anything of the area, you would realized that was false: Shilha is merely one literary language among many in North Africa, the Sahel, and Ethiopia.

Also, please stop claiming that men say "Ašlḥiy" while women say "Tašlḥiyt". That is also false: both men and women say both "Ašlḥiy" and "Tašlḥiyt". The distinction is the gender of the referent, not the gender of the speaker.

Also, you should format all IPA with the template {{IPA}} so that it displays properly for all browsers. — kwami (talk) 19:39, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

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