User talk:Alaney2k/Archive 5

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Long Branch, Toronto

Hi. By cutting and pasting this article in order to move it from Long Branch, Ontario to its current title, you have split the edit history. There are important licensing and page history reasons why entire page moves should always be undertaken using the move tab, and never through cutting and pasting. The use of the move tab both preserves the page history intact and automatically creates a redirect from the old title to the new. If you cannot perform a particular page move yourself this way (e.g. because a page already exists at the target title), please follow the instructions at requested moves to have it moved by someone else. I have tagged the article so that the edit histories can be merged. I don't disagree with substance of your move, but it would be great if you use the move tab in the future. If there are any other articles that you moved by copying and pasting, even if it was a long time ago, please tag them with {{Db-histmerge}}. Thanks. Skeezix1000 (talk) 18:57, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Kanata and Nepean

I noticed that you moved both of these articles. However, the maning convention at WP:CANSTYLE states that both should be disambiguated with the province, not the City. The naming convention also says that this type of move should first be raised on the article talk page. Skeezix1000 (talk) 19:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, these articles, as well as the others you moved, have all been moved back. You should familiarize yourself with the applicable naming convention. I believe that all of the Ottawa communities that qualify for a move from "X, Ontario" to "X, Ottawa" have aleady been moved. Skeezix1000 (talk) 19:12, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I just reread my comments from a couple of days ago, and I apologize if they were a bit curt. That was unintended, and is likely just due to the fact I was a bit rushed. It isn't your fault if you were unfamiliar with the naming convention. Sorry about that. Skeezix1000 (talk) 11:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Dawson City

While I get the feeling you're an SIHR member and have a shot at knowing him yourself, I thought I'd drop the info that Don Reddick, the author of Dawson City Seven and a true enthusiast, is a family friend, and if there are any details of the Dawson City challenge you'd like to know, I doubt there's anything about it still known that he doesn't know. Just FYI.  RGTraynor  19:01, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:AN/I

I have started an AN/I discussion concerning the dispute over the Calgary Flames article here. Maxim (☎) 20:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Sunnyside Bathing Pavilion

On 18 September, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Sunnyside Bathing Pavilion, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--BorgQueen (talk) 12:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Toronto Maple Leafs seasons

Just wondering what your beef with my edit to Toronto Maple Leafs seasons is. I agree that a "standings for the whole season" column is rather pointless. However, my edit didn't revert you constructive insertion of the divisional standing for each half. I just added the accompanying record. It seems more logical to me that for seasons which were split, we should give the record breakdown for the two halves. Let me know what you think. Danlaycock (talk) 04:04, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be misinterpreting my edits. I didn't try and merge the season standings into one overall placement. I actually further broke the season down into two halves, the wins, losses, etc, for just the reasons you mentioned. For the first four seasons there are two rows, one for each half. After that the format returns to 1 row per season. Take another look at the snipit of what I edited below. Danlaycock (talk) 16:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I figured it was a simple misunderstanding. PS....unfortunately I haven't been able to find the season splits for the PIM. If you know a source feel free to update that as well. Danlaycock (talk) 16:20, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Season	GP	W	L	T	OTL	Pts	GF	GA	PIM	Finish	Playoffs
Toronto
1917–18	14	8	6	0	--	16	71	75	--	2nd in NHL	Won in NHL Finals, 10–7 (TG) (Canadiens) Stanley Cup Champions, 3–2 (Millionaires)
	8	5	3	0	--	10	37	34	--	1st in NHL
Toronto Arenas
1918–19	10	3	7	0	--	6	42	49	269	3rd in NHL	Did not qualify
	8	2	6	0	--	4	22	43		3rd in NHL
Toronto St. Patricks
1919–20	12	5	7	0	--	10	52	62	253	3rd in NHL	Did not qualify
	12	7	5	0	--	14	67	44		2nd in NHL
1920–21	10	5	5	0	--	10	39	47	287	2nd in NHL	Lost in NHL Finals, 0-7 (TG) (Senators)
	14	10	4	0	--	20	66	53		1st in NHL
1921–22	24	13	10	1	--	27	98	97	114	2nd in NHL	Stanley Cup Champions, 3–2 (Millionaires)

???

Why are you replacing O'Brien Trophy → O'Brien Cup??? Consensus does NOT seem to favour this move. Maxim_(talk) 19:02, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I didn't move the article. But I found the proper name of the trophy was O'Brien Cup, with cites. So that the article and references are correct. Alaney2k (talk) 19:05, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

What's the point of referring to as the O'Brien Cup when the article is at O'Brien Trophy? Maxim_(talk) 19:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I can't correct the common name of the article, by consensus. That's the common name nowadays. But I can correct the various articles as to the correct name, as it was clearly used 'back in the day', like we do for other names of the times. If it is referred to as the 'Trophy', that is today's usage, not the one consistent with the times. Alaney2k (talk) 19:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Victoria Rink

I left you some more comments. Grsz^talk 20:01, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Congratulations! Good work on the article. Perhaps you'll stop over at 2007-08 Pittsburgh Penguins season and return the favor? Thanks, Grsz^X 16:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

BTW, I listed under Architecture, as it was the closest fit I thought. Feel free to change if you think there's something better. Grsz^X 16:40, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

NHL teams vs. non-NHL teams

You're one of the more knowledgeable and harder working people on Wikipedia working on hockey history topics, so I thought I'd ask you this question: Is there an article here that lists all the games NHL teams played outside the NHL, like the Rangers just did for the Victoria Cup? I know there have been plenty of such games, but I thought I'd be nice to list them, all in one place, yet so far I've been unable to find such a list. This list would have to include any game an NHL team played against a non-NHL opponent. Jmj713 (talk) 18:29, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Only by dint of a staggering amount of research, because it's been going on since the league was founded: the Stanley Cup games before 1927, exhibitions against the WHA, farm teams and even college teams - I was at a 1978 exhibition between the Bruins and the Northeastern University Huskies when I was in college, possibly the last game the Bruins ever played at Boston Arena.  RGTraynor  18:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Rangers also played in a tournament in Sweden in the early 80's. I would hazard a guess that there are hundreds (if not thousands) of such games. Especially of the University variety that RG mentions. Don't know that you would ever be able to find a full comprehensive list but you could certainly make a go of it. -Djsasso (talk) 18:58, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

The IIHF did create such a list for all NHL-International games on the Victoria Cup web site. Take a look at this page. You can see the scale. A list of international games is encyclopedic, games vs minor league not so. So the IIHF list is a good start. Alaney2k (talk) 20:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

This is a great find, thanks! Do you guys think this should be on Wikipedia? Here's a link with some details. Jmj713 (talk) 20:42, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the list of NHL vs. international teams games is notable. NHL games overseas as well. The barnstorming could go into a NHL season article, I suppose. Alaney2k (talk) 22:01, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Hm. Just out of curiosity, what makes exhibitions against European club teams encyclopedic, and exhibitions against minor league teams not? Your average AHL team would put a spanking on the likes of SC Bern, Red Bull Salzburg or Djurgarden, and plays in an arena of comparable size or larger. According to that list, it's been 17 years since a European team's beaten an NHL team.  RGTraynor  16:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the main thing is that when the NHL plays the minor teams, they -rarely- play their full squads. Those, most often, are fund-raisers for the minor teams. On the international side, as an example, Montreal vs. Moscow was toe-to-toe best squads on both sides. Not just an exhibition. Not all international games are notable, for sure. But I cannot think of one NHL vs AHL game that is notable, whatever talent level. I think the fact that the NHL rarely loses those international games means that the NHL teams take them seriously enough to play their top or close to their top squads. Alaney2k (talk) 17:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Alaney, according to the list you found, the Bruins and the Rangers played a huge series in 1959 in Europe. There probably needs to be a separate article on that, or at least something about this extraordinary event in the article for that season. Jmj713 (talk) 20:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Porter in YTZ

I added Porter's announced service to MDW, which is slated to begin on November 12, 2008. I also included a reference. I re-added it because all airport articles, even Ben Gurion International Airport which is a FA, list all airline service which is slated to begin and end. If you have anything against this, please bring it up with WP:AIRPORTS. pikdig (talk) 16:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

The service will start and it needs to remains as "Chicago-Midway [begins November 12]". As PikDig said, please bring this upat WP:AIRPORTS. All airport articles have airline service slated to begin and end. Thanks! Cashier freak (talk) 02:07, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I have no problems with following the standards, follow them by all means. The times that people added the new route seemed to be 'drive-by' editors. There seem to be a lot of those on Porter and the airport. I mean, c'mon teaser ads in the article? Porter is a bit of an unusual airline in that they seem to pre-announce and pre-announce and then most of the time it does come to pass that their route takes off but not always and not always on the date scheduled. So I appreciate the reference, too. I still wonder if it will take off on that day. Alaney2k (talk) 14:04, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Ottawa Senators (original)

I have finished going through the article, and my comments for each section are listed on the review page. Thanks for your patience and hard work on this article. GaryColemanFan (talk) 15:34, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

1994 Stanley Cup Finals

I strongly agree about merging the Quotes and Analysis and Headlines into one section, calling it something like "Media Coverage," as you mentioned at that talk page. SNIyer12, (talk) 02:00, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Can-Am League history

I've stepped on your edit of the Can-Am League history page, as I've edited the section generally. Am now trying to learn your edits, which I will re-insert. --Spike-from-NH (talk) 16:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. Cheers! Alaney2k (talk) 16:20, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I think we are back in synch, as I had copied the same footnote into the Can-Am League page from the Rapidz page. However, I did not include the exact date in the Wikipedia article; the date of this announcement is evident from the footnote. (In several places earlier in the section, I replaced the fact that the League announced something with the fact that it happened.) --Spike-from-NH (talk) 16:24, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

What you've written is good. Thanks. Alaney2k (talk) 16:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Re: your renaming of David Fischer (ice hockey)

Hi there.

Actually, it's the other way around. The naming convention states the the name of the article should be "David Fischer (ice hockey)", not "David Fischer (hockey player)".

Cheers. LarRan (talk) 13:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Senators name questions

Hi I just wanted to ask some questions in terms of the OHC's nicknames.

• 1. Are you sure they were referred to as the Generals in the early years? A few years ago I came across an Ottawa hockey historian named Douglas McLeod over at the HockHist yahoo group. He was researching old Ottawa newspapers on microfilm from the 1880's and 1890's in terms of tracking the history of the OHC. Me and a buddy of mine was running an old website called The Hockey Sweater Museum at the time and I was exchanging E-Mails with him asking about his research. I was asking him about nicknames, mentions of team colors, uniform descriptions etc. He mentioned that he never once saw the name "Generals" used at all. During this time period they were simply called the "Ottawas" or "Capitals".
• 2. Are you sure the Senators name was first used in 1912? Doug mentioned he first saw the name used in 1894 to describe the OHC. He even gave me a specific date, but I can't find the E-mail.
• 3. Was the team really referred to as the Silver Seven during thier dynasty years? Liam Maguire told me that that was a contemporary name given to that team years later to describe that group of seven players who won all those cup challenges from 1903-1906.

I just wanted your thoughts on this.Giantdevilfish (talk) 20:06, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

1. Well, I have -not- seen the use of the word "Generals" in old newspapers. Where I saw that is in a few books. The Generals term seems to be in use or used for the time around 1890. The OAAA logo was the 'running wheel'. The note of the name in the article is to point out a possible reference. I don't believe that the club ever used the Capitals nickname. There was a 'Capital Amateur Athletic Association' in Ottawa, with a very successful lacrosse team. When the Capitals tried to break into the same senior league as the OHC, the league (AHAC) broke up. I have seen the word Capitals used by the Gazette, but not in an official way, more like referring to the city. "The capital squad will arrive tomorrow" McFarlane's books could be the source of the confusion.

2. The Senators term is believed to have been used first in 1901. In the Ottawa Journal. That is something I have seen. If it was used in 1894, that would be useful. Like the Capitals reference, it could have been used the same way, referring to parliament. In referring to the OHC, it seems to have come into common use in the 1910s. There was a competing Senators team in 1909, and the Ottawa newspapers differentiated between the two. One was the Sens, the other the OHC. I frankly was surprised to see the use of Senators in the Globe in 1912, but it was used consistently afterwards. I've been looking for the source of why the Globe changed around then, but not found one. Could have been just a new writer, but there were no bylines.

3. I believe that Silver Seven was used at that time, but not very much. The newspapers that I have read (Ottawa Citizen, Montreal Gazette, Toronto Globe) just use Ottawa. I believe that I have seen an old newspaper use it, but I'd have to look it up. Around the time of the Dawson challenge, if I recall correctly. I do not have a specific reference for the club being presented with the silver nuggets that is supposed to have originated the name.

I was unaware of the "Super Six" nickname also until I worked on this article.

When the Ottawa Hockey Club book comes out, I hope more of this will be revealed. Paul Kitchen has been collecting info on the OHC for decades. It's listed at Penumbra Press. Alaney2k (talk) 20:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I get the impression, "Generals" was a name that only came up in literture years after the fact, and that it was made up by "hockey historians" in contemporary times. Morey Holzman was telling me about a similar situation in regards to Haileybury. Check my comment in the Haileybury "Comets" dicussion page. Anyway, I'm really looking forward to that Ottawa book. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. It's a pretty expensive book, but it looks like its worth the investment.Giantdevilfish (talk) 01:34, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I think so too. I'd like to look at the Ottawa Journal in microfilm. That paper, run by P. D. Ross covered the team more. I live in Toronto currently. I don't know where to see it in microfilm. Alaney2k (talk) 15:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you

		The Original Barnstar
		For your part in addressing the horrendous copyright issues at Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2008 December 2. Your work there is very much appreciated. :) Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Djsasso is the real deal though. Alaney2k (talk) 14:47, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I thanked him, too. Both of you have been very helpful. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

SC Finals infobox

Do you think it's possible to denote OT periods in some other manner, apart from using the asterisks? I just think that looks really off and unseemly. I toyed with the idea of using superscript (ie, 4²), but that's also not ideal. Perhaps leave that information off the series score entirely? I don't think it's so important that it needs to be pointed out there. Jmj713 (talk) 23:06, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, as we slowly improve the series of articles, I'd like to remove the summary tables you see in a lot of the articles. So, not to throw cold water on any idea, I'd like to have OT notes in the infobox. Possibly we could have a third row of the game scores table, or we could just add a row to put the info, or we could colour the column in the games scores table for OT games. Or a combination of the three. I'd rather improve than remove. Alaney2k (talk) 23:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, I would really prefer to have Finals rosters on each SC Finals article like what we have for Detroit and Pittsburgh for the 2008 series. That's a lot of work, obviously, but hopefully that can be done in the near future. Jmj713 (talk) 19:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree, great stuff not duplicated anywhere else. Alaney2k (talk) 19:19, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Boston-bruins-07-jerseys.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Boston-bruins-07-jerseys.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 07:51, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Sundin

Ok, listen up. Sundin only agreed verbally. He did not a contract yet, because of the NHL holiday freeze. Unless he actually put down his signature under a contract, then he becomes the property of the Canucks. A verbal agreement does not make him their property just yet. He is still a free agent.

Norum (talk) 03:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The Canucks announced his signing. That's enough for me. Why isn't it for you? Go to canucks.nhl.com. The sports media announced it too. The typical wikipedia way is to list that he has signed with a club. When he starts playing, then we add him to the Category of that team's players. I have never witnessed a contract signing. I rely upon the announcements from the teams. Those are considered reliable. There has not been anyone saying otherwise in Sundin's case. There is also no reason to not list him as a member of the Canucks. To say otherwise on wikipedia is to a) deny the facts or b) be overly technical as to when the actual signing is done. Alaney2k (talk) 06:07, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Diacritics in city names

Please take a look at the discussion going on at Ccwaters' talk page regarding the use of diacritics in geographical locations. You recently removed them from Template:Vancouver Canucks roster which you claimed was the standard, however, perhaps you were mistaken as the opposite is the case. Thanks. – Nurmsook! ^talk... 19:54, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Please be aware that WP:HOCKEY's position on city names is that they keep diacritics. In fact its an over all wikipedia and english language rule. Sorting is not broken, those letters should be sorting to where they are. Also nhl.com has been deemed an unreliable source when it comes to spelling. -Djsasso (talk) 16:19, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

The sorting is broken, sorry. Alaney2k (talk) 16:50, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

In response to your comment on Ccwaters' talk page, considering I had put them back in all the other templates (they had been mistakenly removed originally by Ccwaters who thought that was the policy to do so), you weren't exactly "fixing it to be like the others". As you can see in my comment above on that page, it is both Wikipedia and WP:HOCKEY policy to leave diacritics in geographical location names, and further, even if it weren't WP:HOCKEY policy, Wikipedia policy trumps our rules anyways. Please refrain from removing them again. Thanks. – Nurmsook! ^talk... 19:13, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

The issue I think is that you confuse a letter with a diacritic over it to be the same letter without a diacritic over it, which is not the case. They are not the same letter, which is why you think its broken. -Djsasso (talk) 19:28, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

The other letters are not supported. Look at the Sedins. A sort should put the city using O with dots in the same category as O without. Of course it uses a different computer code, because we use a code-based system of characters, not an escaped system. That is where you are wrong. The sorting does not do a multilingual sort, simple as that. It is not designed to do the sort. Maybe the back-end can't support it or it was a deliberate decision. Alaney2k (talk) 16:22, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I commend you Alaney2k, for your efforts. After all these months, I still see the city name diacritics as a finger-in-the-eye to (us) anti-dios editors. GoodDay (talk) 21:56, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Rant on. Why do people think you and I are wrong? It is not a right or wrong argument. It's like we are sticking up for apartheid or something evil. Policy this and policy that. Those policies are stubs as far as I can tell, and will never be finished. It's working together that is important. When things don't make sense, they don't make sense. It does not make sense to not put diacritics on names, but do so for place names. And as far as I can tell, these obscure places probably should not have articles. They don't have any notability in the English world. Otherwise there would be translations. And as for Dj, well he just goes against me on principle. The use of obscure characters has not taken off in English, because it would at first have required extra metal print fonts. And that is still the case, even in the electronic age. It still requires codes, and software support. My spell checker would not include the Swedish spelling, simple as that. And people would still not know how to pronounce them correctly, whatever that means, without a course in Swedish. Rant off. Alaney2k (talk) 16:22, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree the working together is important. Which is exactly why we have things like consensus, which means sometimes you are on the side of the minority at which point you work together with the side whose options were choosen even if you don't like them, or you have discussion to change that consensus. You don't just unilaterally stick your finger up in peoples faces and say screw consensus I am going to do what I want and continually revert to your opinion. Frankly it doesn't make sense to remove them from players names to begin with, but that was a concession so this kind of bickering would stop happening. Proper nouns are names and as such should be spelled however they were intended. Its not like its the word for ball being translated, its someones proper name which means there is no incorrect spelling (when its the spelling on their birth certificate or whatever). Just ask Prince whose legal name was a symbol that didn't exist in any language. And for the record I don't go against you on principle. The only two instances where I can think of which I seriously disagreed with you was this one and one about some senators stuff on if they were the same franchise. So lets assume some good faith please as that could be construed as a veiled attack on me. I just think its terribly insulting to have your name spelled wrong, or the name of your city spelled wrong. I am not European, I do not even have ancestors that come from countries that use diacritics alot. So in that sense I am completely unbiased. I do think this is a matter of right and wrong. As I know I wouldn't want diacritics added to my name that shouldn't be there, so why should I support the opposite happening. -Djsasso (talk) 17:50, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Completely unbiased. You must be the first. Pls use 'rant on' and 'rant off'.Alaney2k (talk) 18:08, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I meant that in regards to you comments earlier that europeans are coming here to wreck havoc on the english language wikipedia. -Djsasso (talk) 18:13, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Nobody can think but you. Of course you think you are unbiased. But everyone is biased, sorry!!!! Alaney2k (talk) 18:14, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I never said nobody could think. And do you see the phrase "in that sense" in my comments. It means I am not biased because I am from Europe. I never said I was without bias period. -Djsasso (talk) 18:17, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Than give me the AGF too. It's not appropriate IMO for European editors who know what the O with dots is pronounced like to push for that where we don't? Is that not a valid opinion? OPINION? Your points are opinions too. Get over this 'right or wrong'. You are biased too. 'I wouldn't want'. You said that. I do not know how to enter the O with dots on my computer. Yet I have been a computer user and programmer since 1981. I don't that is laziness. It requires finding out how to do that. Do I have to do that for every non-english character? Why would I want to do that? I would rather stick with what works and improves from there. The use of non-english characters means the sorting does not work. If I want to further the use of diacritics, I would be on the wiki software writers case to make it work. Rant on: That's what I would do rather than work to put unfamiliar, unpronounceable characters into everyone's faces. Rant off. Alaney2k (talk) 18:27, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I was surprised when Carleton University's student union decided to drop the Cystic Fibrosis charity drive. They thought that the disease (mistakenly) only attacked white men. They wanted to be more diverse in the charity. I was surprised that it made national news. Bad outcomes come from even good intentions. I believe its a 'good intention' to show the unfamiliar characters. I don't hate the characters. I have european genes in my body. Slavic ones and the complicated language (IMO) and the alphabet are not unknown to me. We want the wiki to work. If using diacritics really worked in everyday usage, we would use them. We would. Alaney2k (talk) 18:39, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

What is your main issue with them (and I ask you with all sincerity)? Is it that they break things? If so wouldn't it be better to find a way to stop that from happening? Is it that you think it will confuse readers? I personally think (and yes opinion) that most readers who don't use them just ignore them when they see them so I don't think thats an issue. Or is it just that you don't feel english uses them at all? If thats the case List of English words with diacritics might be an interesting read. I really do want to understand why certain people really hate (or don't want to use) diacritics with such ferocity. GoodDay for example I think it physically hurts him and I don't understand why. And I do not think your opinions are any less valid than mine. -Djsasso (talk) 18:46, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

This is a better approach. Thank you. I'll take you at your word (in this case :-) )

What is that saying. The road to perdition is paved with good intentions? It is a good intention. My father who had a slavic name, changed it when he moved to England. There was a Ł in his name. Despite losing the connection with his ancestry, he changed his name. I think that is a sacrifice. People have varying opinions about the values of names. My father took the practical approach. Rather than fight everyone to say his name the way it was said back home, he went the other way. He made the move to the English world. I think he accepted that things would change. This was during World War II. His name was in the way of taking orders to fight. It got in the way. The principle was to go and defeat the Nazis and free his homeland and hometown. It is important to respect our names but does it feed us? Does it clothe us? So when push comes to shove, when we need to eat and do what we need to do, I think we can all accept some compromise. Was it 'right' or 'wrong' to give up the name? Does that really matter? That's a matter for debate and I think can be debated endlessly, to no good end.

I have worked on computer software for a long time. It is imperfect. For a long time, we could not get french accents to work, never mind diacritics. This is and was an acceptable compromise. (Computers are so commonplace and the ability in some fonts to support all Unicode sometimes clouds us that things were not always so.) When it comes to inserting a hometown spelling into the English world, I think we must think about the value of what that does versus what we truly want to do. I do believe that it not a big deal, but I have to think about it, I do think that it does introduce a distraction, a confusion. It really adds nothing of value to the vast number of readers. If our computers could 'pop-up' a pronunciation, wouldn't that be good? That would overcome problems with it. For now, we ignore it. So, what is the value of it?

Who is arguing for it? Is it the players? No. I see no evidence of that in all of the sweaters, the team sites, the published media. Jagr, as big a name as he was, never raised a stink to add a diacritic to his jersey. He probably has a jersey in cyrillic right now. So, who are we to decide? These are the questions I wonder about. I don't think that Wikipedia is the place to get 'ahead of the curve'. You remember I proposed listing a 'common english spelling' as a compromise. Policy got in the way. I don't believe I have the 'hardest head' in this controversy. To mangle your words - policy, like an article, is never finished.

When we remove the diacritics for the players, yet allow them for the placenames, it is a little surreal. The compromise, as I understand it was that diacritics were only to be used in the article about the subject. Not in the articles where the name is mentioned as a minor topic. In Jagr's article, not the Penguins' article. Not a distinction between place names and person names.

As for the policy for following placenames. I believe that we are not following the policy. I tried to show that the Sedins placename is commonly spelled without the diacritics. We have been compromising to allow the diacritics, not the other way around. The vast number of references in publication will leave out the diacritics. By practicality, laziness, whatever. Every language treats foreign words and place names differently. I respect the common, observed convention of not using them.

So, I guess in my case, I would say, I don't see the value of imposing the diacritics. It is impractical, and I would choose practical. What I especially don't like are people standing up and saying 'this is right' without any regard to the practical. I don't like attempts to make me feel wrong on a point that I think is debatable. It won't put me in hell to not use diacritics. I hope. Alaney2k (talk) 19:55, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion. It is interesting to read. Only things I really have to say is that for each person who didn't mind having to change some did mind. I have no idea on numbers, I just know I have read alot about peoples surnames getting messed up at Pier 21 in Halifax and Ellis Island in the US and being pretty upset about it. As for players making a stink, I am sure most don't. I know there was atleast one who did mention not liking his name being spelled differently but I forget who it was as it was someone else who mentioned him somewhere. Might have been a diferent sport but I am pretty sure it was hockey. But I believe you are probably correct that most don't care they just put up with it. I think I see it mostly as a slippery slope, the more we give in to slang, which is what this could be seen as, the farther away from proper english we get. Now perhaps this is all just evolution of the language I do not know. -Djsasso (talk) 21:37, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Everything was done in long hand. You can see the lists of people who arrived at Ellis Island. My mother's parents did so and I can see their names. It was just impossible for some immigration guy to write down in english based on what people said to him which was often the case as citizenship and cards did not really exist. No, it's about the idea of correctness. Has never smelled right to me. There have been several who it has been impossible to translate to English. E.g., Stan Neckar Alaney2k (talk) 21:51, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Just a note.

Not sure if you noticed at the talk page of I think it was this years or last years playoffs that there was a debate on the capitalization. Some people thought Playoffs was part of the proper name and therefore capitalized and others thought playoffs was just a normal word so not capitalized. I don't remember if you were in the discussion on that or not. And I don't really care either way anymore. But thought I would let you know this was something that had been discussed and maybe should be mentioned again at the project page if you have alot of pages to move so you time isn't wasted. -Djsasso (talk) 17:54, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it is pretty clear that it should not be capitalized, just like season. Outside of wikipedia, I would probably capitalize it, but that is not the convention here. I was thinking of requesting a move at some point. The articles are a mess, so I was going to work on that first. Alaney2k (talk) 18:05, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Yup just wanted to let you know. Like I said I am good either way. But some people thought it was the proper noun like the name of a movie as compared to just being a noun which wouldn't be capitalized. The regular season isn't marketed in the same way so it might not be a parallel. But anyways keep up the good work. -Djsasso (talk) 18:22, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Ordinal numbers

Hi -- I reverted your changes to Carolina Hurricanes, with the exception of the Playoffs decapitalization. In paragraph text, changing numeric ordinals to the corresponding words (1st to first) would be appropriate, but we didn't have any of those. In standings tables, though, I really don't think it works with the all-numeric data in the rest of the table, and in the list of draft positions it's probably best to keep even the low-numbered ordinals numeric for consistency with the higher ones that would be awkward spelled-out. I'm willing to listen to counter-arguments, though. :) VT hawkeye_{talk to me} 03:42, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Was just coming here to say the same thing. And to note that if you feel it must be changed to words instead of numerical, you should atleast capitalize the word. It looks awkward lowercase. -Djsasso (talk) 04:48, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Tried to do it via AWB. The search and replace to do it was flawed. Alaney2k (talk) 20:33, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

No worries I had the same issue when I first used AWB to do something similar. If you just use the search replace. Next to what you are replacing just select it as case sensitive. -Djsasso (talk) 20:47, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Alfredsson, Speeza & Heatley

Yikers, it's looking more & more likely, that one of these fellow (Speeza, Heatley) will soon be moving on. GoodDay (talk) 20:18, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Heatley has a no-trade. And Spezza has a big contract. It's possible, but I've heard mostly rumours about the staff. Alaney2k (talk) 20:25, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

It's quite likely Hartsburg will be out, Quinn in. GoodDay (talk) 20:29, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Seems crazy to dump Hartsburg so soon. He has a three-year deal. I'd let Murray go, IMHO. Quinn would be liked in Ottawa, can't say if it would be a popular decision in Toronto... Alaney2k (talk) 20:32, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Stanley Cup Challenge Games Appearances

I was wondering if you remembered this? I was just browsing this article again, and it stuck me once more how complex this time in hockey history is. I think a table of appearances like we have for the Stanley Cup Finals would help a lot in that regard, bringing focus to the information. Just having wins and losses for all participating teams would help, but perhaps the seasons could also be worked in. You know this era better than anyone, so I didn't even attempt to devise a table, although I started to work off the Stanley Cup Finals appearances table. Jmj713 (talk) 20:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it is a good idea. I'll work on it next week. Alaney2k (talk) 23:11, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

List of Ottawa Senators head coaches

Hey there Alaney. I don't really have a problem with a summary, the only issue I have is that this article is now straying away from the consistency of the other coach articles, not that that's necessarily a bad thing. Looking at FL articles such as the Bruins, Canadiens, Capitals, Islanders, Maple Leafs, Panthers, Rangers, and Sabres (and those are just the Eastern Conference FLs), they all stay within the same format. My greatest concern was that you removed a rather large cited paragraph. I like the fact that you're expanding the prose, there's definately no harm in that, but what do you think of keeping the original lead paragraph the way it was, and then going from after that on with your changes? – Nurmsook! ^talk... 17:09, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Excellent. That's basically what I was going for when I undid your original edit. I essentially just wanted to keep the original intro paragraph and then follow it up with your summary, but you beat me to the punch. Sorry if I jumped the gun there. Looks good though! Cheers! – Nurmsook! ^talk... 17:17, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Running Man Barnstar
		For your simply tireless contributions to sports articles and updating of the hockey seasonal articles, I award you The Running Man Barnstar.   Maple Leaf (talk) 21:42, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Wow. Thanks! Alaney2k (talk) 21:44, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Toronto City Centre Airport

Thanks for removing the statement about the 4,000 ft runway being built in 1959 for jets — I think the magazine cited just got it wrong. In 1959 the Boeing 707, Douglas DC-8, and Convair 880 had just been certified, while the DeHavilland Comet was hoping to be reborn after being pulled for safety flaws. There's no way anyone would have dreamt of trying to operate these jets with only a 4,000 ft runway (I think they needed close to double that). David (talk) 00:43, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

{{MontrealCanadiensSeason}}

If I can ask, what was the intention of this template and the one for the Blackhawks? Aside from some colour differences, they seem entirely redundant to the general NHL template? I was going to replace and TFD them, but I wanted to understand the reasoning behind them first... perhaps we can add something to the main template to suit the intention? Resolute 01:14, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The Montral Canadiens one was necessary because they have been in two leagues, the NHA and NHL. The Chicago one is unnecessary from that point of view. I would like to see the colours added to the NHL template. Alaney2k (talk) 15:17, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (File:Ny-islanders-07-jerseys.jpg)

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File:Stanley Cup Series Is Off.jpg

It is not fair-use as you stated in the description. It is in public domain as it is published more than 50 years ago in Canada and is before 1923. SYSS Mouse (talk) 04:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Porter Airlines

Just so you know, the plain title Sudbury is a disambiguation page, not an article about the Canadian city. For the Canadian city, you can use either Greater Sudbury or Sudbury, Ontario (they both lead to the same place), but if you want the name to appear as just "Sudbury" in the text, you need to use the disambiguated titles followed by pipetext. Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 01:06, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

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Richard Mahoney

Why did you redirect this article? He was far more than just a candidate in that election. As well as also being a candidate in 2006, Mahoney was president of the Liberal Party of Ontario and Paul Martin's chief of staff and one of his top lieutenants. - SimonP (talk) 23:37, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Generally speaking, candidates are all probably interesting in some way. Often they are activists, etc. I think he belongs in a candidates article. I don't know if Mahoney is particularly notable. The article is also kind of brochureware for the guy. Not NPOV. It was deleted fairly. Putting it into a candidates article is probably the best place. Alaney2k (talk) 02:59, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Most candidates in Canadian election don't have nearly the notability that Mahoney did. If you run a media search you will see that he gets several hundred legitimate media mentions well before he became a candidate in 2004, and many more since then. Being a party president, as he was of the Ontario Liberals would alone justify an article, even if he had never run. The inclusion criteria for all politicians is "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject of the article" and you can't deny that Mahoney meets that. - SimonP (talk) 03:26, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I really believe he is best slotted on the candidates page. Yes he was president of the Liberal Party of Ontario. I've backtracked from my previous proposal to delete to put him on the candidates page. I am not the most knowledgeable editor on this topic. I've proposed for deletion other failed candidates, one quite active in the Green Party. If you want, I can put the Mahoney article up for deletion and let it go to consensus. I'm open to that. Alaney2k (talk) 03:46, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Rollback

I have 5 granted rollback rights to your account; the reason for this is that after a review of some of your contributions, I believe I can trust you to use rollback correctly by using it for its intended usage of reverting vandalism, and that you will not abuse it by reverting good-faith edits or to revert-war. For information on rollback, see Wikipedia:New admin school/Rollback and Wikipedia:Rollback feature. If you do not want rollback, just let me know, and I'll remove it. Good luck and thanks. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 13:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Wow that was fast -- under a minute. We need service like that everywhere! Alaney2k (talk) 14:18, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Habs

The season doesn't link properly and plus/minus is capitalized incorrectly, and no one bothered to change it when I asked so I just decided to change them. Even if someone does fix them, there's still really no need. RandySavageFTW (talk) 21:52, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Playoff formats

I was wondering, with your deep knowledge of the history of the NHL, if you could revise the Playoff formats section of the List of Stanley Cup champions. As it is now, it's not very informative. There should be explicit explanations of how seeding worked and which seed played which seed throughout the history (since it varied so much). For instance, there's no mention that 1 vs. 8 and so on only started in 1994. There's no mention of the three division champions getting to top three seeds. And so on. If you could do this, it'd be a great plus for the article! Thanks. Jmj713 (talk) 17:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. . . Alaney2k (talk) 23:00, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Jersey images

Hey, With the addition of the hand-drawn uniform sets added to the articles, I am removing and deleting the uploaded images of the Rbk jerseys, as WP:NFCC says we should use a minimum of non-free images, and the two become redundant to each other. Since you uploaded many of them, I wanted to let you know, and I'm deleting them now rather than let the bots deal with it to save you the 25 or so "this image is about to be deleted" talk page messages you will otherwise get. Let me know if you have any issue with this.

Also, per our little debate on the early history categorization and templates, I'm going to come up with a little mockup of what we might be able to do with that template that would help us unify the various historical articles. Hopefully it could help give greater visibility to the early leagues, which I know you have put a lot of effort into. Resolute 22:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I think there is a ton of opportunity around a proper History of ice hockey article series, though god only knows when or if I'll ever have the time or will to write it. At the very least, we can tie a lot of the articles together and kind of form a rough historical timeline that way. That evolution of the NHL template has been bugging me for a very long time though. I only now finally got around to doing something about it, lol. Resolute 22:49, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure how to scope it out as we move forward, but off the top of my head, There could be a history article for the early amateur growth of the game, basically from the beginning of the sport's history to the creation of the Allan Cup. Then one for the early professional. Beyond that, probably the rise and fall of senior hockey, the growth of junior, minor professional as three parallel articles coming to the present. You would probably be able to write excellent articles on the first two given your knowledge of the time frame, while the last three would be just a pain to build complete articles on, but at least some expansion of the topics would help us tie hockey's North American history together. Resolute 23:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Wider input

Hi, as someone who participated in this and this, you may be interested in giving your opinion at this featured topic candidacy, which is currently seeking wider input before a decision can be made as to whether to promote the nomination. Thanks, rst20xx (talk) 01:17, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (File:Sens-07-08-jerseys.jpg)

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Montreal Arena

Hi, just was wondering a question about the fire that burnt down the arena. Do you know where to find any additional information (a few refernces to look at?) regarding the fire and how it started? thanks a bunch Ottawa4ever (talk) 19:36, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

You could check the microfilm copies of the Montreal Gazette for the time at the library. It might also be covered in one of the Montreal Canadiens history books. I've not looked into it in depth. Alaney2k (talk) 19:38, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I came accross a Lapresse artcile at one of the libraries with the help of a friend. Theres not much more information about the fire than is already in the wiki aticle. But it could provide a source for the unsourced section. I had been hoping for a picture of the collapsed building. Thanks again for pointing to the micorfilms :) Ottawa4ever (talk) 16:54, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

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Blackhawks

You may have noticed I moved a few article names to the "correct" team name. I see that perhaps that was incorrect so I've reverted those changes. I'm interested in getting this right; can you provide me info on what the correct name is/was and when it may have changed? Thanks!  Frank  |  talk  01:23, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Baby Point

Please don't use copy and paste to move articles, as it breaks the article history needed for correct attribution. I've undone your changes. Mindmatrix 19:44, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Toronto neighbourhoods

Over the last couple months I've been working to eliminate the articles based on the City of Toronto demographics map, and have by now merged/renamed most of them. There are a number of different maps of Toronto neighbourhoods, including another one put out by the city itself City of Toronto maps. Of the various maps, the one the city uses for demographics reports is by far the worst. Many of the communities on it are never used in common parlance (e.g. Woodbine Corridor) and many well known neighbourhoods are excluded (e.g. Leslieville). Wikipedia policy is to go by common usage, and all the other maps seem to much more closely reflect this than the demographics one. - SimonP (talk) 20:36, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Area maps

I am using a combination of five maps for the neighbourhood ones. The city communities map, Toronto Neighbouhoods.net, Toronto Public Library, TOBuilt.ca, and the Toronto Star. For the most part these maps agree. Where the maps disagree, I use lighter blue to show that an area is only sometimes attached to a certain neighbourhood. For more complex cases I also look to how media reports and residence associations describe neighbourhood boundaries. - SimonP (talk) 21:29, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

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Re:Riverdale map

That's a good change. I didn't really know how the confusion between Riverdale, Riverside, and Leslieville should be handled. Your changes definitely better reflect the mix of names that stretch goes by. - SimonP (talk) 20:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

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Adding all stats to season articles

It's good that you're adding them but you should fix the dabs too with sortname. {{sortname|Larry|Murphy|Larry Murphy (ice hockey)}} is all you need to do. I also don't think plus/minus, penalty minutes, goals against, and goals against average should be capitalized. And there should be spaces before and after the = sign I believe. Sorry if I'm sounding like a jerk, but if you're going to improve tons of articles, might as well get those little problems right. RandySavageFTW (talk) 22:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Goals against average, plus-minus, penalty (ice hockey) for caps. I meant that "MIN=Minutes played" should be "MIN = Minutes played." RandySavageFTW (talk) 22:11, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

No, I was just showing that we don't capitalize them on their respective articles. I guess you could, but I don't think there's much need honestly. It's different on player articles, if you don't know what G stands for click the link, but it already says goals on season articles. RandySavageFTW (talk) 22:20, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Not trying to bug you but there's no semicolon after plus-minus, we usually don't put a hyphen between goals-against average, SA=Shots Against should have spaces before and after the = and against shouldn't be capitalized, same with percentage in save percentage. These are only minor problems but since you're going to edit pretty much every season I thought I'd let you know. RandySavageFTW (talk) 22:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Hockey & Diacritics

I found out something today. Apparently, Quebec isn't included in the North American dios guideline at WP:HOCKEY. GoodDay (talk) 16:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Wowsers, my watchlist sure has become less crowded, since deleting all those hockey related articles from the list. GoodDay (talk) 16:44, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

There's but one way, I'll agree to a Quebec amendment to the North American guideline. Remove the diacritics from the the NHL players birthplaces on the NHL Template rosters. GoodDay (talk) 15:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

This is what I find annoying. The North American guideline is being amended, to allow more diacritics & nothing is being offered in exchange. It's the unfairness & biasness of it all. It's OK to increase diacritics on North American ice hockey pages, yet not OK to eliminate them. Getting the dios removed from the NHL Template rosters is a prime example of this double standard. Balsille has a better chance of moving the Coyotes to Hamilton, then we've got, to get a concession from the pro-dios side. GoodDay (talk) 15:21, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Hey Al, I just wanted to say, I've enjoyed the dios discussion. GoodDay (talk) 15:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Division champions

I wonder, would the WP:HOCKEY go along with descriptives for the Divison champs? Say Division regular season champions & Division playoff champions. GoodDay (talk) 22:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Not conference. Division. GoodDay (talk) 22:26, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Yep. Example: in 1991-92 Montreal finished on top of the Adams Division. But, Boston won the Adams Final. GoodDay (talk) 22:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

That's true. The Habs only raise Stanley Cup banners. GoodDay (talk) 22:40, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of File:Blueshirts-logo-1913.gif

A tag has been placed on File:Blueshirts-logo-1913.gif requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section I5 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an image which is not under a free license or in the public domain and it has not been used in any article for more than seven days.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Alaney2k (talk) 16:31, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I can't help but grin at the fact you notified yourself of an imagine being put up for speedy. Does this mean you have multiple personalities? -Djsasso (talk) 17:04, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The impossible dreams

Jim Basille has a better chance of getting the Coyotes to Hamilton, then we've got at getting our preferences supported at WP: HOCKEY. GoodDay (talk) 19:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm curious about what name a Hamilton NHL team would get. I'm guessing the Tigers. GoodDay (talk) 20:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Believe me, if the Coyotes are going anywhers? it'll eventually be Las Vegas or back to Kansas City. GoodDay (talk) 21:05, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Let's parley at my page. GoodDay (talk) 21:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

SC playoff formats

Outstanding job on the Playoff formats section of the List of Stanley Cup Champions! Thanks. Jmj713 (talk) 16:10, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Sorry it took me a while to get to it. I was waiting for my copy of the NHL Media Guide to arrive. Boy, did they ever tinker with it over the years. Alaney2k (talk) 16:19, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

No problem. I would've done it myself but all the changes and variations just made my head hurt... Jmj713 (talk) 16:27, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

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Delivered by SoxBot (talk) at 10:58, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

bracket templates

hi, i noticed that you have been editing nearly all of the Category:Tournament bracket templates, adding hyphens to the words quarterfinal and semifinal. i'm not going to quibble over the hyphen (although i don't prefer it, and don't think i've ever seen it used in US English), but i'm wondering if there was some motivation for this edit campaign? is there a style guideline that prescribed this? if not, editing hundreds of templates that are transcluded on thousands of articles on a whim seems to be a bit more than just WP:BOLD. —Ed Cormany (talk) 22:49, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

thanks for the response. i'm all in favor of standardization, but it looks like it might have been easier to standardize the other way around, given the number of edits! and i agree, the bracket templates are a bit of a mess, but it's so hard to do anything with them without causing further problems down the line. —Ed Cormany (talk) 00:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

all i meant was that you had to add so many hyphens that it might have been quicker to remove them from the templates that had them in the first place. it's done now, though! —Ed Cormany (talk) 01:18, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

• I am all for standardization. The problem is that when I created some of the early bracket templates in 2006 like Template:16TeamBracket, I used the terms without the hyphens because the leagues here in the United States like the NBA and the NHL also used them without the hyphens. Then and currently now, the majority of NBA and NHL articles also use the terms without the hyphens. Therefore in my view, it is somewhat standard American English. So as the first major contributor of those templates, that type of spelling proliferated as those bracket templates became the basis for other similar templates. And thus since I was essentially the first major contributor, I reserve the right under WP:ENGVAR to revert your edits since those templates are used all over the placed and not tied to any specific region or country. Cheers. Zzyzx11 (talk) 02:54, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

  Oh, I vaguely remember early on this issue was discussed, but it was decided to keep the templates under the spelling I used, as I was the first major contributor. Once I remember where it is archived (it was more than three years ago) I'll give you a link to it. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:09, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

  So far I remember this discussion at User talk:Adw2000#Tournament Brackets. I forgot that at that time, I thought it would be best to not have standardization, and have the default national variety of spelling of each template correspond to that was used on the majority of articles it was transcluded on. In other words, a template that is primary used for European leagues has European spelling as the default, whereas a template primary used for American leagues has American spelling as the default. And then if a template primary designed for Australian leagues need to be placed in an article pertaining to a Canadian league, the RD1, RD2, RD3, etc. parameters could be used to change the default settings.

  I vaguely remember there was another one I talked about in my last comment. Again, I'll let you know if I find it Cheers. Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

  Seems I am currently having trouble finding that discussion right now, so I will give repeat a point I told User:Adw2000: Keep in mind that whenever you change the default values, it affects every single article it is used in. It would be like if I changed the default values of Template:Infobox football club from European English to American English, or the default values of Template:NHL Team from American English to Canadian English. Do not edit the default national variety of English of hundreds of templates if you are not willing to change the thousands of articles that use them so they all still comply with WP:ENGVAR. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (talk) 11:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

  As I mentioned, this is not an ENGVAR argument. You had Semi Finals, Semifinals, Semi-Finals, semi finals all over the place. I can understand that there are basically two valid spellings Semifinals and Semi-finals. The OED goes back further and lists when words came into play. They are a good default. As for checking on articles, most over-ride the defaults. I am willing to go further and touch up articles. No problem there. Alaney2k (talk) 13:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

  I do not mind if you go ahead and change all the articles that use these templates so they still conform to whatever spelling their respective leagues use. But I do argue that it is still a ENGVAR or similar issue in which various regions use different variations of spelling of the word. You claim that the OED is "the most correct spelling" and yet you also say that "there are basically two valid spellings". As ENGVAR implies, no variety is more correct than another and we do not write articles or templates so they always all use "the 'most correct' spelling" or use "the spelling that first came into play" as described in the OED. Because the English language, and all of its varieties, changes over time. Cheers. Zzyzx11 (talk) 15:21, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Don't use my words out of context. I compared the OED to dictionary.com. Objectively, the OED is the best source for info on the English language. It makes a good default. Besides that, we should still try to use good spelling and grammar. For example, the word "third" instead of "3rd". In that spirit, I am working on this, not to say American spelling is less correct than the 'rest of World' spelling. I am happy to look up the articles. I am happy to conform to Quarterfinals and Quarter-finals. That is still fewer spellings that what I have seen. Your discussion was on a user page, so how could I find it? It probably should be discussed at the Sports projects talk page: WT:SPORTS. I am happy to discuss it there and I think now that that is where I should have discussed it first before editing. I will start it up again, so it gets properly archived. Alaney2k (talk) 15:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

List of Stanley Cup challenge games

Remember we talked about adding a table to the List of Stanley Cup challenge games article like the one used for List of Stanley Cup Finals appearances? Well after much deliberation I decided to go ahead and create something similar. Please take a look here and make any necessary corrections as you see it: List of Stanley Cup challenge games#Table of participating teams. Thanks! Jmj713 (talk) 18:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

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Love hockey? what do you make of this....

Hey been doing alot of digging in old newspapers from 1895 trying to proove if a player existed. I came accross this peculiar phrase in this edition of the Metropolitan about the Quebec hockey team. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=UcsOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UTkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2224,5159248&dq=hockey They mention bringing home a beautiful silver cup as consulation to a loss and later victory of a score of 6-2. (This is around early febuary of 1895) Do you make anything of this?., its vague I know but seeing silver cup and 1895 together you wonder. Is there any chance that challenges of the stanley cup go unrecorded? Just speculation nothing moreOttawa4ever (talk) 14:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

No, they were recorded. They were big money-makers for whoever put them on. I think it is some sort of military league. If you go to the Athletic Centre of RMC in Kingston, there are lots of old trophies that are silver cups on display. They have a nice pool, I go there with my daughter. Open to the public. Alaney2k (talk) 15:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

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NHL standings templates

Hi. I had been puttering around with the standings templates for the East and West Divisions over this past weekend, namely adding some documentation on how to use them, adding {{thickborder}} to split the teams that made the playoffs from those that did not, and removing bolded team names where I found them. I noticed you (re-)bolded the playoff-bound teams in most (all?) of the East Division templates over the past couple days, and made the tables sortable. I don't mean to sound confrontational, but... why?

Bolding the playoff team names, in my opinion, gives them prominence over the others which looks particularly bizarre on articles where a non-playoff team is the subject matter, and also looks a little strange given that the respective statistics aren't bolded. It's a good solution given the fact you also made the tables sortable, however in sorting them it makes {{thickborder}} useless.

In turn I wonder why you made a wee little table with eight rows sortable. Does it really serve much purpose? After all, games played don't need to be sorted, nor do points, and by extension wins, losses, goals for and goals against aren't worth sorting either (i.e. the team with the most points will tend to have the most wins and goals for and fewest losses and goals against anyway). So what's left that's worth sorting? Ties? Penalty minutes?

Just curious to know your rationale. I hope we can hack out the "best" format. Thanks, 93JC (talk) 20:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Didn't know I was reverting, as I created most of the Template namespace standings files, mostly from NHL seasons articles. This has been discussed at WT:HOCKEY. Bolding is the convention we use. We need to follow convention more, not less. Look over the vast majority of standings and that is what is in place. As for sorting, this was discussed also. It is most useful for the goals for/against and PIM categories. No sorting on the games played. Admittedly for some of the times when divisions were small, it doesn't mean much. Alaney2k (talk) 20:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC) (copied from User talk:93JC)

I think you'll find I created a great number of the Template division standings files. And while we did discuss it briefly at WT:HOCKEY we never came to much of a consensus (a consensus of two?), let alone established a convention. The vast majority of standings use bolding because you made them bold... Perhaps I should re-open the discussion at the WT:HOCKEY. 93JC (talk) 21:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

That's the most appropriate place. I go along with that. Alaney2k (talk) 21:14, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

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