June 2022
edit
Hello, I'm Iskandar323. Wikipedia is written by people who have a wide diversity of opinions, but we try hard to make sure articles have a neutral point of view. Your recent edit to Women in Islam seemed less than neutral and has been removed. If you think this was a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:12, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
Please do not add or change content, as you did at Women in Islam, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Neither Youtube nor medium are reliable sources - also you pasted the same text multiple times, I assume by accident, but please be more careful in future. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:07, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hello , My intention was not to give unreliable sources. Sorry. I would like to ask how my previous edit on "Women in Islam" was less than neutral since I was correcting statements from the sources themselves. Lastly is this website a reliable source https://muslimmatters.org. BB10000 (talk) 16:15, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- It is possible that the website you are citing is reliable for some things, but it is not a particularly impartial source. It is clearly a religious website, and it presumably presents a fairly 20th or 21st-century view of Islamic issues, quite probably with a certain partisan bias. An ideal reliable source would be something more academic. However, before you set about looking for that, please let me set some things straight. You seem to be looking to edit some pretty fundamental terms in Islamic terminology that have about 1,400 years' worth of usage. This needs to be done delicately, and with context. For instance, the term hijab in the Qur'an does not refer to a veil at all, but a screen in the prophet's house - its meaning has then changed with time, as have the prescriptions for women on what is considered the most Islamically prudent way of covering themselves. It might be best for you, rather than editing directly immediately, to first start by opening a discussion on the talk page for the article. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:30, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- I am aware of the what Hijab means at the 7th century. Language changes and as such when we say Hijab today , it is mainly means the the covering of head, hair, and chest area. None the less I was only informing of the fact that The Quran clearly mandates in Surah An Nur Ayat 31 , direct literal word for word "... and strike upon themselves with their Khumour upon Juyb wrapped around tightly..." If we look at the work Khumour, Which is plural for Khimar. We find that the word during the 7th century means a cloth that covers the entire head and then some portion below. This is also supported by the fact that a turban was called Khimar if was worn properly and covered a portion below. “Also a man’s turban; because a man covers his head with it in like manner as a woman covers her head with her khimar when he disposes it in the Arab manner, he turns [a part of] it under the jaws [nearly in the same manner in which a woman disposes her khimar]” (Lane 1863, 809). Arab women at the time, mainly Mecca had Khimar and it was a cloth that specifically covered the entire head and some portion below mainly the back side. This is why you Find in The Quran it Says in The same Ayat ," ...Khumour-hinna ala Juyb.." , in other words the entire head covered and some portion below upon the juyb( can be translated as chest cavity). There is Sahih Hadiths that affirm. BB10000 (talk) 17:01, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Good, so you know juyb means chest, so you also know that all the Qur'an instructs is that the chest should be covered. This contrasts with the pre-Islamic Meccan tradition for women to wear dresses with plunging cleavage lines. But it says nothing about covering heads or hair - all of that part of the tradition lies in local culture and interpretation. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:20, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- First, Khimar means a thing that covers the entire head and some portion. I provided evidence in my previous post of that fact. Maccan Women used to have Khimar such that the part that covered below was the back. The Quran commands Women to Wear the Khimar such that the part covering below was upon the Juyb(I translated chest cavity because did not want to bother explaining direct meaning. It roughly means shirt opening, which refer to The Jilbab that Women were commanded in Surah Al Ahzab Ayat 59. Also The Quran is not in Chronological order to how it was revealed. Thus the shirt opening was the area just below the neck of the cloak(Jilbab) and was the area that exposed neck line.)
- Therefore your claim is false. The Quran commands Women to Cvber the Head and Hair thereby as well as the chest area. Further evidence was that Women from Medina(Yethrib) did not use to pit Khimar on, and when The Ayat was revealed then they all started wearing in the way commanded. BB10000 (talk) 18:27, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Well, I'm afraid that neither of us have provided any evidence, and your interpretation of the Qur'an is irrelevant. Any understanding that you claim to personally derive from a primary religious text is considered original thinking. To establish anything of this nature on Wikipedia, you will need to find a reliable secondary source saying it. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:08, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- The Proof That Khimar means The Entire Head Covered and Then Some Portion Below is found in "Arabic–English Lexicon" By Edward William Lane who derived the meaning of Arabic literature from medieval Arabic dictionaries plus the dictionary Taj al-ʿArus. Medieval Arabic which is Classical Arabic and according to Cornell University Library is "mid- 7th century CE, ca. 660, or the period following the advent of Islam" and goes on until The Middle ages or 14th century. Therefore the word meanings would not fully be the same as language of Arabs At the 6th and 7th Century , none the less it would give a somewhat close meaning to that time. In The Lexicon , Khimar Means , "خِمَارٌ [A woman's muffler, or veil, with which she covers her head and the lower part of her face, leaving exposed only the eyes and part or the whole of the nose: such is the خمار worn in the present day: a kind of veil which is called in Turkish يَشْمَقْ; as in the TK:) a woman's headcovering; (Mgh, TA;) a piece of cloth with which a woman covers her head; " Furthur Proof can be found in The Lexicon with a related word of Khimar , "مُــخَمَّرٌ (assumed tropical:) A horse having a white head, whatever be the rest of his colour; but not ↓ مُخْتَمِرٌ: (Lth:) and مُــخَمَّرَــةٌ, applied to a ewe or she-goat, (Az, T, S, A,) accord. to Lth and the K ↓ مُخْتَمرَِةٌ, but the former is the right term, (TA,) [in the CK مُخْتَمِر,] (assumed tropical:) whose head is white, and the rest of her black; like رَخْمَآءُ: (S:) or having a white head; (Az, T, A;) and in like manner, a mare: (K:) or a black ewe with a white head: from the خِمَار of a woman." There is more proof I can Give and would like to see your response. BB10000 (talk) 20:41, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Well, I'm afraid that neither of us have provided any evidence, and your interpretation of the Qur'an is irrelevant. Any understanding that you claim to personally derive from a primary religious text is considered original thinking. To establish anything of this nature on Wikipedia, you will need to find a reliable secondary source saying it. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:08, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Good, so you know juyb means chest, so you also know that all the Qur'an instructs is that the chest should be covered. This contrasts with the pre-Islamic Meccan tradition for women to wear dresses with plunging cleavage lines. But it says nothing about covering heads or hair - all of that part of the tradition lies in local culture and interpretation. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:20, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- I am aware of the what Hijab means at the 7th century. Language changes and as such when we say Hijab today , it is mainly means the the covering of head, hair, and chest area. None the less I was only informing of the fact that The Quran clearly mandates in Surah An Nur Ayat 31 , direct literal word for word "... and strike upon themselves with their Khumour upon Juyb wrapped around tightly..." If we look at the work Khumour, Which is plural for Khimar. We find that the word during the 7th century means a cloth that covers the entire head and then some portion below. This is also supported by the fact that a turban was called Khimar if was worn properly and covered a portion below. “Also a man’s turban; because a man covers his head with it in like manner as a woman covers her head with her khimar when he disposes it in the Arab manner, he turns [a part of] it under the jaws [nearly in the same manner in which a woman disposes her khimar]” (Lane 1863, 809). Arab women at the time, mainly Mecca had Khimar and it was a cloth that specifically covered the entire head and some portion below mainly the back side. This is why you Find in The Quran it Says in The same Ayat ," ...Khumour-hinna ala Juyb.." , in other words the entire head covered and some portion below upon the juyb( can be translated as chest cavity). There is Sahih Hadiths that affirm. BB10000 (talk) 17:01, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- It is possible that the website you are citing is reliable for some things, but it is not a particularly impartial source. It is clearly a religious website, and it presumably presents a fairly 20th or 21st-century view of Islamic issues, quite probably with a certain partisan bias. An ideal reliable source would be something more academic. However, before you set about looking for that, please let me set some things straight. You seem to be looking to edit some pretty fundamental terms in Islamic terminology that have about 1,400 years' worth of usage. This needs to be done delicately, and with context. For instance, the term hijab in the Qur'an does not refer to a veil at all, but a screen in the prophet's house - its meaning has then changed with time, as have the prescriptions for women on what is considered the most Islamically prudent way of covering themselves. It might be best for you, rather than editing directly immediately, to first start by opening a discussion on the talk page for the article. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:30, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
BB100000, you added the exact same paragraph what, six times? And Iskandar is correct: what you are doing is original research. Adding some quotes from a 19th-c British orientalist is NOT going to make the thing stick. Moreover, this is an encyclopedia, not a forum for discussing interpretations of scripture. Drmies (talk) 20:45, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hello, what do you mean same paragraph 6 times? I am unaware also what you mean by 19th century British Orientalist. If You are talking about Edward William Lane , then I just gave you his lexicon on Classical Arabic to English. BB10000 (talk) 21:42, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hello just want to ask if these sites are reliable
- https://thethinkingmuslim.com
- https://muslimmatters.org
- And I want to ask if Lexicons can be cited and does that mean I can just say what the word means and not make any conclusion from that without another source making the claim? BB10000 (talk) 14:09, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
Welcome!
editHello, BB10000, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Unfortunately, one or more of your recent edits did not conform to Wikipedia's verifiability policy, and may have been removed. Wikipedia articles should refer only to facts and interpretations verified in reliable, reputable print or online sources or in other reliable media. Always provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. Wikipedia also has a related policy against including original research in articles.
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