Bailer99

January 2024

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February 2024

Please do not insert fringe or undue weight content into articles, as you did to Turanid race. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Please use the article's talk page to discuss the material and its appropriate weight within the article. Thank you. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:50, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Please stop. If you continue to insert fringe or undue weight content into articles, as you did at Caucasian race, you may be blocked from editing. Articles on Wikipedia do not give fringe material equal weight to majority viewpoints; content in articles are given representation in proportion to their prominence. Rsk6400 (talk) 20:01, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

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Category:Ethnographic groups of Georgians has been nominated for deletion

Category:Ethnographic groups of Georgians has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether it complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you.  // Timothy :: talk  01:59, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Caucasian war vandalism

Hello, do you read the articles you edit? This is not the first time you have removed information from a template. Do not remove Abkhazia from the template anymore until you read the article, as well as read the sources and do not dare to blame them for unreliability, linguists are doing this, not you. Alsho093 (talk) 17:23, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

@Alsho093: Are you 91.207.181.128? The sources which were provided in the article for your claims (this and this) are highly unreliable because they look like nothing more than online blogs. The works provided there look nothing more like than online self-published works. Also, appereantly you got very mad because second part of your text just sounds very aggressive, calm down and provide reliable sources for your claims. I don't need to be linguist to see if a source is reliable or not. Bailer99 (talk) 17:30, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

These are online books, this is your 6th violation already. Any propaganda towards minorities is prohibited Alsho093 (talk) 17:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

@Alsho093: Where were these books published? I see nothing about this work on Google Reads. It seems like it is just online self-published work and nothing more. I just checked this source now and there is not even one mention of word "Abkhaz" there. "this is your 6th violation already. Any propaganda towards minorities is prohibited" :DDDD I think you are engaging in personal attacks now. I asked you to provide me reliable sources instead of online blogs and self-published books. You claim now that I am engaging in "propaganda against minorities". Which "minority" am I "propagandizing" against and what kind of "propagandanda" am I promoting? Is asking to provide reliable sources a "propaganda"? lol, it looks like it is you who engages in propaganda now with your self-published questionable sources. Calm down. Bailer99 (talk) 17:45, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

This is an English Wikipedia, not a racist site. You are a participant, I warned you, you can get banned for misinformation in the history of Circassians Alsho093 (talk) 17:51, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

@Alsho093: It looks like I will need to report you for these baseless accusations unless you answer my point about reliability of sources, also, clarify you baseless allegations. Just throwing around term "racist" because someone asked to provide a reliable source is not the way to go. Bailer99 (talk) 17:54, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Abkhazians-Abaza in the Caucasian war

Provide me with the source of your information, you understand that the Abaza and Abkhazians are only conditionally separated, provide the sources of your information Alsho093 (talk) 06:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Misimians

Hello, can you provide sources where it is proved in plain text that the Masimians are ethnically of Svan origin? Alsho093 (talk) 22:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

It is added in the article. Deleting what you don't like is not the way Wikipedia works. Persistent activity like this will lead you getting banned.Bailer99 (talk) 22:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on free writing by authoritarian sources, it's a made-up story, not an exact fact. You can cite the sources, you have done the same in other articles, first check out the sources Alsho093 (talk) 22:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Will you provide the sources of your words? Alsho093 (talk) 22:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

The source is already provided in the article! What don't you understand? Go there and read if you want. And don't delete sourced info. Bailer99 (talk) 22:41, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

These sources do not correspond to the story, I repeat, have you read these sources yourself? Will you provide me with sources confirming your words Alsho093 (talk) 22:44, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

"The fact that Kodori Gorge had been the living place of Svans before is clear from other sources, too. Ancient authors mentioned about the people who they called “Misimianelians”. As Academicians S. Kaukchishvili and G. Melikishvili stated, (S. Kaukchishvili, The Tribe of Misimianelians – TSU Works, I, Tbilisi, 1936; G. Melikishvili, For the Issues of Ancient Population in Georgia, Caucasus and Nearest East, Tbilisi, 1965), the name of Svans itself "Mu-shuan" was changed into "Misimian" in Greek language."

This is written on page 9. I am not obliged to spell out everything for you. Just don't delete sourced information, or you might get banned.Bailer99 (talk) 22:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

How could the Greek language without the sounds of mush and b change the name of the Misimians who lived in the Karachay-Cherkessia fortress of Bukhlon, now under the Russian Federation and Abkhazia? you didn't send me the sources that contradict the Greek ones. you haven't even really read the original, that's what this is about. And the name of Misimian is known as murzykan, mentioned by Evliya chelebi, whom you have not read either Alsho093 (talk) 22:49, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Listen, you don't even understand how Wikipedia works. Wikipedia primarily relies on what scholars have studied and an academic consensus on the topic. Secondary sources (studies of scholars) are better sources than original sources, because scholars study those original works and write papers on them. You are not scholar, are not you? I have provided a source about opinion of academics, and this is a reliable source according to Wikipedia standarts. Bailer99 (talk) 22:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Let's not touch the sites related to you know what, falsification, and your sources A. Mgeladze and Ingorokva are not reliable, since we are talking about Reliable sources, please show them I read two sources and not one of them does not speak about the Misimian language, so do not defend, I remove falsifications, so that Wikipedia has become a reliable source, according to the rule 1.2. Alsho093 (talk) 23:01, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks thank you for using Wikipedia and I hope for further cooperation а Alsho093 (talk) 23:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Where exactly did I mention Ingorokva and Mgeladze? You reasoning seems that you just don't like the provided source so you will delete it. I don't know if you are aware, but wikipedia has a rule about edit warring. Read about it - making persistent edits which are disputed might get you banned. If you change the page without consensus, you will be on the verge of engaging in violation of 3-revert rule on Wikipedia, which leads to a ban. Also, I am checking your sources and there is no mention of Missimians being Circassian or whoever you claim they are. Bailer99 (talk) 23:06, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia, I hope you will continue to work together to improve wikipedia articles Alsho093 (talk) 23:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, I am not that enthusiastic, but whatever. Bailer99 (talk) 23:12, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alsho093:, do you at least understand that when citing a book with 353 pages, you at least need to provide on which exact page the relevant information is? I am talking about the source you added on Timurid invasions of Georgia page. Bailer99 (talk) 23:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alsho093: If you fail to provide a page, your edit will be reverted. Bailer99 (talk) 23:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

283 footnote or 88 pages Alsho093 (talk) 23:23, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

It's hard with the young, 88 page google search use in the menu Alsho093 (talk) 23:22, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alsho093:: Where is Abasgia mentioned here? "communément appelée le Stylarion et qui se trouve à l est, face à Chio. Il enseignait aux Turcs l absence de propriété foncière, et, à l exception des femmes, son dogme était la mise en commun de tout le reste, la nourriture, l habillement, les bœufs de trait et la terre: «Moi je dois être dans ta maison comme si c était la mienne, et toi dans la mienne comme si c était la tienne, la partie réservée aux femmes exceptée. Ayant de la sorte trompé les paysans dans leur ensemble à accepter cette doctrine, il cherchait de manière sournoise à gagner l amitié des chrétiens. Il exposait en effet le dogme suivant: si quelqu un parmi les Turcs dirait que les chrétiens ne sont pas des gens pieux, ce Turcétait en fait un impie. De la sorte, tous les adeptes de son enseignement, s ilsrencontraient quelque chrétien, lui offraient 1 hospitalité et 1 honoraient comme si c était un ange de Zeus 211 . Lui-même ne manquait pas d envoyer quotidiennement auxseigneurs de Chio et aux membres du clergé des prédicateurs, qui leur apprenaient sescroyances, et en particulier que personne ne pourrait trouver le salut hors la concordeavec la foi des chrétiens. Le hasard a voulu qu à cette époque habitait dans l île unvieil anachorète crétois, dans le monastère dit de la Troulloti. Le pseudo-abbé lui envoyadeux de ses apôtres, parmi ceux qui portent simplement une tunique, ont la tête rasée et nue, ne portent pas de sandales aux pieds, sont sans chapeau et [je répète] habillés d unesimple petite tunique. Ils s adressèrent à lui [= à l anachorète], lui transmettant le message: « Moi aussi je suis comme toi un ascète, et j adore le même Dieu que toi. Jeviendrai chez toi, traversant de nuit la mer sans faire de bruit. Alors le vrai abbé, trompé par le pseudo-abbé, commença à prononcer en faveur de ce dernier des parolesétranges, disant { Lorsque je méditais à l île de Samos, il était devenu mon compagnondans l ascèse; aujourd hui il traverse [la mer] jour après jour et s entretient avec moi » ainsi que d autres monstruosités, qu il me disait à la face, à moi qui écrit [cette histoire]. 12. Le représentant de Mehmed, le fils de Sisman dont il a été précédemment question,et qui dirigeait cette province de l empire, après avoir rassemblé une armée, vint à la rencontre du pseudo-abbé, mais ne parvint pas à traverser les défilés de Stylarion. Eneffet, les habitants du Stylarion au nombre de plus de six mille se réunirent en un et setinrent dans les passages difficiles, où ils massacrèrent tous ceux qui étaient avec" - page 88. Bailer99 (talk) 23:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

«1. With the coming of Spring, lo, Temir-khan went from Persia to the regions of the Don and gathered the Tauro- Scythians and Zykhians and Abasgians. 88 He demolished the fortresses of the Bosporos 9 and then crossed to the regions of Armenia. He passed through Cappadocia with a large army, conscripting many Armenians, until he came to the region of Galatia, by which time he had as large an army as did Xerxes of old.» You're making it very difficult for me, I'll have to add a photo for this. Alsho093 (talk) 23:30, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alsho093:: I think I have found that, but it is on the page 49: " Le printemps étant arrivé, voilà que Tamerlan, venant de Perse, arriva dans la région de Tanaïs, rassembla les Scythes de Tauridel3l, les Zikches132 et les AbkhasesI33, et après avoir détruit les forts d~ BosphoreI34, passa dans les régions de l'Arménie. Après avoir traversé la Cappadoce, et ayant ajouté en chemin à ses troupes pas mal d'Arméniens, il arriva dans la région des Gal ates 135 , ayant avec lui une armée aussi nombreuse que jadis Xerxès". Bailer99 (talk) 23:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alsho093:: This source does not talks that Abasgians fought against Georgians! I am deleting this. Bailer99 (talk) 23:36, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

they fought everywhere, read in full they were the basis of his army with others in the campaign against India, Pakistan, Georgia, Turkey, Egypt Alsho093 (talk) 23:39, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alsho093:: I am reading it, and so far there is only talk about Battle of Ankara with Ottomans. I will continue reading next day. Unless there is a direct mention that Abasgians fought against Georgians, I will remove it from article. Bailer99 (talk) 23:57, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alsho093:: So I have read enough pages to say that the book does not mentions Abasgians fighting against Georgia. It indeed does mentions Abasgians fighting in Battle of Ankara against Ottomans, but not their paricipation in Tamerlane's invasion of Georgia. So, it will be removed from the article. Bailer99 (talk) 02:29, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alsho093:: As a compromise, I would suggest to you to add about Abkhaz and Circassian participation on Tamerlane's side in the Battle of Ankara article, but remove them from Timurid invasions of Georgia. The source you added mentions that Abkhazians and Circassians joined Tamerlane's army in the battle of Ankara against Ottomans, but it says nothing about their participation in the invasion of Georgia, so removing them would be logical. Bailer99 (talk) 02:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The language of the Abkhazian Principality

Hello, can you cite sources that show that Abkhazians spoke Georgian and not Abkhaz? The Sources that you added say "Абазы говорят на языке схожего черкеским, а их слова ломают язык» Alsho093 (talk) 22:31, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alsho093: Ok, here is source, Narrative of Travels in Europe, Asia, and Africa, Evliya Çelebi, p. 173, quote:

The principal tribe in Abáza are the Chách, who speak Mingrelian, which is spoken on the opposite shore of the Phasus Bailer99 (talk) 03:12, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Chach is not a nation, but the Muslims of Chachba Alsho093 (talk) 06:01, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

««Странный и удивительный язык абаза: Ак — 1; уба — 2; ихпа — 3; бшба — 4; хуба — 5; фба — 6; бзба — 7; аба — 8; жба — 9; жуба — 10; ак жуба — 11; уба жуба — 12; ваи (с долгим «и») — иди сюда; учи — уходи; утви (с долгим «и») — садись; арпыш — мальчик; счаб — уйду; апхус — женшина; счом — не иду; узу мчозуи арпыш — почему не идёшь, парень?; сира издрвей — не знаю; ура йудырва — ты что знаешь?; всхадж киси — душа моя, глаз мой; сира издрвах — то, что я знаю; сира сызыхт — мне хватает; арс изухвазуй — почему так говоришь?; вео бозве — ты что, бредишь?; исхвазуй — что я говорю?; сира издрам — я не знаю; ура йухар уа — сказанное тобой; ура йудруа — ты знаешь; ака ура укагуб — но, ты спятил; анчаги йоуйги адлш — ради бога и его созданий; аки сыздрым анчернеш — ей богу, ничего не знаю; усквауроуй — не мучай меня, сжалься; сира акр устхун — говорю чепуху; анчваиныш апш амла спшрай — клянусь, абаза, я голоден; счаб паста йу фара — пойду поем пасте.» вот вам текст Alsho093 (talk) 06:14, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Whatever you say, it needs to be backed by sources. If it is not backed by sources, then it does not matters for the article. Bailer99 (talk) 15:48, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I'll do it., Alsho093 (talk) 16:55, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The source needs to be a direct and widely accepted repudiation of Çelebi's description that there was Mingrelian-speaking population in Abkhazia. Unless this is provided, the information should not be removed. Bailer99 (talk) 16:58, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

It cannot be, you will read the Ottoman archive, there have never been Georgians. That's enough Alsho093 (talk) 17:03, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alsho093: Do you even know what "official language" means? No one of the sources you added mention that Abkhaz was official language in Abkhazia. It could not be, Apsua did not have a alphabet before Russian general created it for them in 1862, it was not official language, it was unwritten, Georgian language was official and it is documented. The sources are added. Bailer99 (talk) 17:05, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Let me remind you, there is not even one writing in Apsua language before 17th century. The first one was done during this time in Arabic script by Turkish traveler Evliya Çelebi. The Apsua alphabet was created by Russian general in 1862. Based on what are you claiming that Apsua langauge was official? You have no sources which say that. Bailer99 (talk) 17:07, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The earliest indisputable extant written records of the Abkhaz language are in the Arabic script, recorded by the Turkish traveller Evliya Çelebi in the 17th century.[36] Abkhaz has been used as a literary language for only about 100 years.

you don't read well, take tests in the draft. There is a reliable fact here, there were no Georgians in Abkhazia, the census is in the article "Ottoman archive", I will fix it for you Alsho093 (talk) 17:11, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

There is no proof that unwritten Abkhaz language was official language in Abkhazian principality, you have no sources. Red herring is not going to change that. I am removing that from the article, you failed to provide an argument. Bailer99 (talk) 17:14, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

the sources are there, you just don't think the template is for short, read the article itself, and if you delete it, I'll throw vandalism, war edits and anti-Abkhazian at you, which I'll do now Alsho093 (talk) 17:17, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Ok, let's go through this. You have provided two quotes to justify your claim that Abkhazian language is official language of the principality of Abkhazia. First one:

Странный и удивительный язык абаза: Ак — 1; уба — 2; ихпа — 3; бшба — 4; хуба — 5; фба — 6; бзба — 7; аба — 8; жба — 9; жуба — 10; ак жуба — 11; уба жуба — 12; ваи (с долгим «и») — иди сюда; учи — уходи; утви (с долгим «и») — садись; арпыш — мальчик; счаб — уйду; апхус — женшина; счом — не иду; узу мчозуи арпыш — почему не идёшь, парень?; сира издрвей — не знаю; ура йудырва — ты что знаешь?; всхадж киси — душа моя, глаз мой; сира издрвах — то, что я знаю; сира сызыхт — мне хватает; арс изухвазуй — почему так говоришь?; вео бозве — ты что, бредишь?; исхвазуй — что я говорю?; сира издрам — я не знаю; ура йухар уа — сказанное тобой; ура йудруа — ты знаешь; ака ура укагуб — но, ты спятил; анчаги йоуйги адлш — ради бога и его созданий; аки сыздрым анчернеш — ей богу, ничего не знаю; усквауроуй — не мучай меня, сжалься; сира акр устхун — говорю чепуху; анчваиныш апш амла спшрай — клянусь, абаза, я голоден; счаб паста йу фара — пойду поем пасте.

This quote provides a general description of Abkhazian language, but it does not says anywhere that Abkhaz language was official language!

Second quote:

Sunday is celebrated solemnly, which speaks about Christianity, which once prevailed in them. The language and customs of the Abaza are very similar to the Circassians

Once again, there is no talk about official language here too!

You might not understand what official language means or how sourcing works, but I can't help. Just because Abkhaz language was used in Abkhazia as a common language, it does not means it was official.Bailer99 (talk) 17:21, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

What does the abazines have to do with it? Abkhazians are Abaaza, do you know the Abkhazian language? This is an article about Abassia, this is the principality of Abkhazia, and Abkhazia is a more modern term Alsho093 (talk) 17:36, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

the documentary language is Abkhazian, the book Sukhum-kale proved this, I published in the article Alsho093 (talk) 17:37, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I have corrected the first part of my comment. Still, your claim is unsupported by sources. Bailer99 (talk) 17:48, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alsho093: Don't readd a claim that Abkhazian was an official language until you provide a source which directly states that Abkhazian is official language or as you claimed "used by all residents". Otherwise it is violation of WP:OR. Bailer99 (talk) 17:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I do not have the right to write and the sources allow, do you have the documentation data? I can remove the Georgian, there is no information about the use Alsho093 (talk) 17:48, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

You can not delete information about Georgian language, because the information is sourced and direct quote is provided from the source supporting the claim:

However, the official language of Abkhazia principality remained Georgian and Abkhazian aristocracy was part of Georgian noble society

Do you have any sources which directly state the same for the Abkhaz language? No, you've failed to provide them so far. Bailer99 (talk) 17:51, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

do you understand that you were not allowed to add the peoples of the entire principality? Alsho093 (talk) 18:12, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

If you have sources, about the specific sources of the territory of the principality and that Mingrelia was also part of it. If yes, then show me, I tried to find found only in the fighting Alsho093 (talk) 18:14, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Mingrelia was not part of Abkhazian principality, but the main tribe in Abkhazia spoke Mingrelian language. This is attested by Çelebi. Bailer99 (talk) 18:15, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The Facha is not a tribe, it is a territory, the Abaza is a national state that spoke exclusively in Abkhazian, like all the principalities of the Caucasus in their own. But Mingrelia was part of Abkhazia, this is a historical fact in the Russian-Caucasian war. Kelesh Bey imprisoned the imam and the Abkhazians temporarily controlled these territories Alsho093 (talk) 19:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Your own reinterpretation of history is irrelevant. The source has been provided, Abkhazians were Georgians, they spoke Mingrelian. And Abkhazia was Georgian principality and it was part of Georgian kingdom. Bailer99 (talk) 20:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

rubbish Alsho093 (talk) 22:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alsho093: Leave the added sourced information in the article as it is, at least for now. Don't remove sourced information. Bailer99 (talk) 18:10, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Blocked as a sockpuppet

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Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:48, 11 March 2024 (UTC)