User talk:Baristarim/Archive 6

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Tatil,Template

Ankaraya gidip geldim. Dernek genel kurul hazırlığı yapıyorum.Yarın öğleden sonra tatile başlıyorum. Templateye, talk page'ine ve Khoi'nin talk page'ine bak. Selam. Must^TC 08:30, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

==Please Use Edit Summaries==

When editing an article on Wikipedia there is a small field labeled "Edit summary" under the main edit-box. It looks like this:

The text written here will appear on the Recent changes page, in the page revision history, on the diff page, and in the watchlists of users who are watching that article. See m:Help:Edit summary for full information on this feature.

Filling in the edit summary field greatly helps your fellow contributors in understanding what you changed, so please always fill in the edit summary field, especially for big edits or when you are making subtle but important changes, like changing dates or numbers. Thank you. Must^TC 20:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

AmiVandal

Valla ben yapmadım.O yaptı.User:AmiDaniel/VandalProofMust^TC 20:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Kurban bayramınız mübarek, yeni yılınız kutlu olsun

görüşmek üzere, iyi yıllar --Doktor Gonzo 14:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

People's Republic of China

Hi, Baristarim - I removed your addition to Wikipedia:Featured articles with citation problems; please review the criterion used in developing that list (less than ten or twenty inline citations). It seems that what you may want is to submit China to WP:FAR instead. Sandy (Talk) 14:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Baristarim, perhaps you can satisfy my curiosity, because this is making me crazy - you just responded to my post at SandyDancer (talk · contribs). I am not SandyDancer - how did you confuse me with him/her, and why are people thinking I'm that person? As I've read allegations of sock puppetry elsewhere on pages I follow, it is really bugging me, so I'm hoping your response will enlighten me as to how and why people are confusing us, when I've never crossed paths with him/her. TIA, Sandy (Talk) 01:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

ah, ha - I've followed up more on SandyDancer, and see where you've crossed paths with him/her. Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Mitsos. Well, that's not me - I'm changing my sig so that hopefully people won't continue to confuse us. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:53, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

It's no problem, Bastarim - you're not the first one to mix us up. Happy New Year! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Edit summary

Hi, Baristarim. When you make a new edit, could you please provide an edit summary. It is really helpful in order to follow the changes an editor makes, without having necessarily to check "history". Thanks!--Yannismarou 21:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Barinstarim, You are right! It is my ommission (I'm still against merger by the way!). But I cannot treat everything in such a little time. I am writing this article all day (instead of checking El Greco and starting the rewriting of regionalism as I planned to). Give me some credit and some time (if this article survives the current poll)! I cannot do anything in a half day. Happy new year! My best wishes! And goodnight (I think 15 hours writing is enough for one day!)!--Yannismarou 21:35, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Turkey

Just a heads up you have 3 reverts one more violates the rule i suppose, but i know vandalism doesn't count. Nareklm 09:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

• I added a paragraph on the Armenian deaths to the Ottoman history section. I hope that is acceptable to all involved. Regards, --Jayzel 19:14, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey Baris, yeah the paragraph is alright but as I said to Jayzel the issue is important to mention in the article because it has soured relations between Turkey and many countries, the latest to be France and Argentina. It may also be a roadblock between acceptance of Turkey in the EU as once proposed. It has certainly affected Turkish and Armenian relations as we all know. If you check my links, it may also damage US-Turkish relations and Turkey is doing all it can to stop an Armenian bill from being considered in Congress. It doesn't need to be in detail as that detail belongs to another article but a mention is necessary I find. What do you think? And I know what you mean about an edit war right now lol...disaster...Yeni yiliniz kutlu olsun :D (is that correct? lol) Fedayee 19:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

• I suggested to Fedayee that as it is part of history my paragraph should remain as is. However, that does not stop you from adding an additional paragraph referencing the present day situation in the FR section. İyi akşamlar! --Jayzel 19:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

You got my support! Just make sure it is a little formatted and elaborated eventually, Thanks Fedayee 07:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Photoshop

Hi Baristarim, even I'm on vacation and I made a promise for not spending time on Wikipedia for a while, I felt like checking my messages today. Congratulations with the FA nomination and everything. You've really made an exemplary effort on that article and I believe it will get the FA status eventually. I can say I'm fairly good with imaging tools and I will be happy to help you with such stuff. Do you have anything in mind for the barnstar (which you will be the first to receive, it seems), or shall I also try to come up with a design? Also, is this urgent or can it wait until a few weeks later? Happy new year! Atilim Gunes Baydin 19:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Zile

It would be great if Zile article had received a rating on the project's quality scale. Can you check it out?Ugur Olgun 19:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks for the rating. If you provide a To-do list, I will do whatever necessary.Ugur Olgun 09:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It was added there after the comments at FAC.

Look, I have a bias; I want to tell the "truth". If there is a person/s or group/s that planned and develop the methods to exterminate an ethnic group, I would be the first person to vocalize it. Orhan Pamuk is a good writer, Turkey article is featured article; but do they need a crown to gain that position? What is the cost of this crown? Armenian Genocide did not extended in wikipedia to the Republic of Turkey, except its foreign relations, where it rightfully belongs. Why move it under Republic of Turkey's history? Are you going to claim Enver Pasha, Talat Pasha was the founder of this republic? Mustafa Kemal broke his political link with these personalities as early as 1914. In his famous 1915 report to sultan on denouncing the war and its policy makers he put PM and War minister on the target. No one says it but republic was build on the ashes which these people left. Armenians not the only sufferers in this deal. Why Ataturk's reforms included secularism? I'm not against talking about this issue. The place and content of it is wrong.--OttomanReference 03:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Barış!

İyi Barış! Aferin! Turkey article will not include the exodus from the Balkans, Tatars, Circassians but it will include Armenian foreign policy tools (an outdated one, in my opinion). So be it! Türkiye'nin dış ilişkilerinde de en üst sıradalar zaten sayende. Allah akıl fikir versin (pardon, kocaman harflerle yazdığın gibi atesit olduğunu unutmuştum:) Cretanforever 09:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Allah yolunu açık etsin! Il n'est pas facile d'essayer de menager le chevre et le chou a meme temps. Cretanforever 10:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Barış, Türkiye makalesini FA yapmak için taviz veriyosun anladığım kadarıyla, yapma bunu, politik oyunlara geliyosun. Ayrıca cretan, lütfen aramızda saygı çerçevesinde tartışalım, yakışmıyor sana.--Doktor Gonzo 08:56, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Please, do not legitimize fake discussions by taking part in them. You will see that, in time, they will drown in their own fuss, and maybe come back in the form of real articles at last, where I will have the opportunity to read stuff I won't like, but many others will have to go through the same experience, just to see if they will be able to put up with it. Take part only if the discussion is real!!! I think in terms of developing a few articles here, and nothing else. I, too, keep an eye on a number of articles, thank you, but not the eyes of a censurer, I don't own any article. Eğer Rabbi Albert Jean Amateau'nun yeminli beyanının direct linkini Armenian Genocide sayfasına dahil etmeyi wikipedia'nın göztü yiyorsa, o zaman Armenian Genocide'ın bahsinin de Turkey sayfasında (şu anda olduğu gibi) yeri var. Rumlar ve Ermenilerin yapabileceği hiçbirşey beni korkutmuyor, ama Türklerin yapabilecekleri korkutuyor. Bunu demek istedim. Cretanforever 17:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

FAC Turkey

Yes, I'll post specific comments when I get the time, some time this week. Yes, it's encouraging, but I mostly like to point out what people do right to make sure they keep doing it right, and so that others see what I think is done right--ultimately FAs are a value judgment of the editors who bother to read them. I'm very concerned about the low readability of some Wikipedia articles. I almost didn't bother reading the Turkey article, but decided to when someone commented about the stability in face of prior edit wars. I am also very pleased that, for once with a country article, a group of editors attempted to do the overall picture of the country with the article, rather than propagandize a sanitary picture of the country to the world. I'll get back to the Turkey page with specific comments as soon as I can, but I do want to see what comes of the comments about Armenia and the Kurds from others--I thought Cyprus was already covered okay within the confines of the article. KP Botany 18:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

One of the problems is that people want to read the article about Turkey and have it be the current political situation of Turkey, that isn't its purpose. It simply has to cover the major conflicts as they relate to Turkey today, and in proportion to the entire history of the region that is now called Turkey. Still, you could consume 100KB on just Iran and Turkey and leave the reader without a sense of what is going on. I think, with a few omissions that don't actually cloud the value of the article as a whole, as I stated before, that your group really put together a solid article, so just evaluate each criticism and use it as appropriate. It's a tough group of editors at FAC today--this will improve the overall quality of Wikipedia in the long run. Cheers, KP Botany 19:47, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, so you tried to be responsible to the audience in the first place. Thanks. KP Botany 20:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much, a happy new year to you too. Miskin 20:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Format

No problem. :-) BTW, your userpage currently says that you're a native speaker of Turkish, English, and French. Are you sure you didn't mean near native, or "professional level"? I could be incorrect of course (you obviously know the most about yourself than I do!), but I know that Turkish is your native language, and I assume you learned English growing up (and when you lived in the States), and then French when you moved to France. Khoikhoi 00:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Nochiya articles

I agree that they're unreferenced, but I think it would be a better idea if you try talking to A2raya07 and ask if he has reliable sources for some of the articles. This is a lot better than edit warring over tags... Khoikhoi 05:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey

Barış,

(did I get that right?)

I will leave my comments on the talk page alone for a bit, and see what sorts of other comments they get.

I do want to say, though, that I am not anti-Turk, nor will my editing be anti-Turk. I may be a bit more frank than you are comfortable with, but I believe I stay within bounds. For example, you saw that I asked for the references to genocide to be removed, and asked for timelines for each section, so that, for example, improvements (uneven, but improvements) in the right, for example, to use Kurdish, have improved.

(btw, Ozal never said he was partly Kurd, though it is usually assumed that he was)

Anyway, I have only been editing a short while. If you look through my contributions I think you will find that I do not edit with an anti-Turk POV. If anything, I pay special attention to the POV of those too weak to speak for themselves (either because historically they no longer exist or inhabit that part of the world, or through technology/wealth they are poorly represented on Wikipedia.) So, when people are denied their own language, I do pay extra attention, whether that be in the southeast, or, as I found 18 months ago in Chania, Crete, when a store owner and his daughter spoke broken greek and english to me, then Turkish (!) to each other, and so I answered in Turkish. They were embarassed and ashamed and insisted we only speak English. That people are too afraid to speak their own language, or are banned from it, that is horrible, wherever it happens.

(I still don't know if they were Anatolian Christians or Turks who never left Crete. Most people just tell me I must have been mistaken. It's easier for them to pretend.)

Anyway, I've rambled on too long. I am glad to be editing with you. Jd2718 06:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Turkey's Nomination

I'm sorry, I just saw your mail. I was busy because of a discussion about the Saddam's trial (I can't believe how I could waste such a huge time on such an issue :)). I supported the nomination and gave my reasons why I did so. I hope, Turkey's article will become even better. Saygılarımla, Deliogul 14:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

---

Mutlu yıllar

Happy New Year! E104421 13:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Ardahan

Please stop removing the link to Armeniapedia in the Ardahan article. It contains valuable information not contained on the wikipedia page and there is no policy in Wikipedia restricting external links to government sites! If you persist I will report your vandalism. Thank you. --RaffiKojian 01:49, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for proving my suspicion with your "unreliable site" comment. You may now report me! :-) --RaffiKojian 17:13, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Whatever might be the content dispute, this [1] is not appropriate. And please focus on content, not people [2]. Please do not post messages to my talk page until you can be constructive or civil. Thank you. Baristarim 19:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your kind remarks on El Greco. I'm most certain that within the next 2-3 days Raul will also promote Turkey to featured status.--Yannismarou 12:21, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Info was not "merged", but deleted

There was no "merging" of info as you falsely claim. The info mentioned in th FR section is exactly as it was earlier. You deleted an entire paragraph of specific info (including use of the word "genocide") that was a compromise to gain you additional votes in FAC. Removing this paragraph this late in time in the FAC is deceptive and not working in good faith. Perhaps I would think differently had you sent a notice to those of us involved in the discussion. However, you didn't. As I result, I no longer support this article. FA rules clearly state an article must be stable and not subject to edit wars. This article fails to meet that criteria. Sorry. --Jayzel 20:41, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I reverted to the original version [3], and later reverted myself to User:Kilhan's version with a note that I would take a look at it again very soon. I had been leaving constant notes on the talk page. In any case, all I want to say is that other users can keep an eye on the article as well. That's not bad faith. I am sorry that you feel that way however. I merged the contents here [4], much earlier. Working to address the concerns on the FAC is excluded from the stability criteria. Otherwise how can the edits be done? Vandal attacks are also excluded, there is not much I can do if someone decides to attack the page with four sockpuppets right on New Year's Eve.Baristarim 20:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, okay, but when I looked up the history I saw you were the most recent person to remove the paragraph and was surprised to say the least. I'll take back my comment you are acting in bad faith, but I think I will remain neutral on whether this should become an FA. I have a bad feeling it will remain a target for edit wars well into the future. Regards, --Jayzel 21:49, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your comment on my talk page. Sorry I have not been around much to help with the vandalism. Keep up the good work, too bad about the vandal right in the middle of FA review. I'll try to keep an eye out as well. --Free smyrnan 21:18, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

MUTLU YILLAR

Thanks for your message, I'll try to keep an eye on it. Oh and happy new years. --Mardavich 04:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

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Germany FAC

Hi, Baristarim, I know you are busy with the Turkey FAC among other things, but could you please just take a glance at Germany and see if the concerns you mentioned on the German FAC page where addressed. TSO1D 16:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

merhaba.o kadar ulkeyi nasil gezdin ya? email adresni nasil alabilirim? Bilal

Yukarida soldan "e-mail this user"a bas.. Baristarim 00:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeni Yiliniz Kutlu Olsun

Hi Baris, Happy New Year. The FAC for Turkey seems to be going very well. Thanks for the Barn Star, i will reply in kind:

		The Barnstar of National Merit
		For consistent and tireless efforts in improving Turkish related articles as well as your exceptional work on Turkey --A.Garnet 15:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Happy new year

Hi, Baris (may I call you Baris?). I try hard to keep away from Wikipedia until I get rid of this mountain of home assignments I need to complete before mid-January (sorry that this coincided with the time you need help most, for fencing off these sockpuppets). But occasionally I find myself doing minor edits here and there. I have a concern which I think I should share with you before long: The language you are using when you get angry with vandal anons and the like (I mean the Turkish, including swear words, in your edit summaries), is very, very disturbing for me. It doesn't bother me at all to see such edit summaries in attacks of anons whose only purpose is without doubt to disturb things. But, to see these coming from an established editor makes me feel awfully disturbed. Today's happening was the second. Please keep cool and remember that it won't serve any purpose except making the party you're dealing with happy, or more fierce. Happy new year! Atilim Gunes Baydin 01:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

İlk defa size Türkçe yazıyorum. Öneri / uyarımı anlayışla karşıladığınıza çok sevindim. Bu kadar abuk insanla oldukça iyi başediyorsunuz ve sinirlenmeniz normal. Fark ettiyseniz ufak bir de harita sorunu ortaya çıktı. Anladığım kadarıyla Commons'daki Avrupa ülkelerinin konum haritalarını yapan kişi, Türkiye'yi Avrupa'ya referansla gösteren bir harita kullanıldığında bütün ülkenin Avrupa kıtasında olduğu iddia edilip yanlış bilgilendirme yapılıyormuş gibi hissediyormuş. Yeni hazırladığı haritalarda da lejandı sağ altta çok güzel ayarlanmış bir yere denk getirerek hem Kafkas ülkelerinin hem de Türkiye'nin transkontinental durumundan kurtulmaya çalıştığı bence çok açık. Avrupa ülkeleri için yeni yaptığı haritaların arkaplanını da kendisi hazırladığı ve boş durumda Commons'a yüklemediği için yeni güzel bir harita üretmekte güçlük çekiyorum. Bu kullandığı haritayı oturup eliyle çizmediği açık. Arayıp kaynağını bulup, Avrupa ülkeleri için kullanılanlarla görüntü olarak uyumlu ve Türkiye'nin üzeri kapatılmamış güzel bir harita yapmaya çalışıyorum. Her durumda şimdiki "Turkey in Africa" haritası gerçekten çok komik. Sanıyorum oylamadaki Afrika ilişkileri olayı burada da baş gösterdi. Burada İngilizce dışında yazışılmasını onaylamadığım halde ben bu kadar uzun Türkçe yazı neden yazdım açıkçası bilmiyorum. İyi geceler sayın Barış :) Atilim Gunes Baydin 02:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: Turkish literature and changing standards ...

Hey, it was my pleasure to help out in the little way that I did with Turkey. As for changing standards and Turkish literature, it seems to me that the article won't be affected insofar as the major thing being discussed is inline citations, which the article already has (22 of them, to be exact—if someone comes along and deems that number not sufficient for some reason, it would be no great chore to add more). But thanks for the heads-up; I'll keep my eye on it (actually, I watch that page like a hawk anyhow; now I guess I'll just watch it like a hungry hawk).

By the way, you're doing excellent work, both on Turkey and everything else. Keep it up, and rest assured that your work is appreciated. Cheers. —Saposcat 05:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Hagia Sophia and Sinan

Hello Baris and happy new year:). About the issue we got involved in the article about Hagia Sophia. I think that it is quite important to mention that Sinan was born as Christian. Maybe his restoration works were made only cause the then Sultan asked him to, but the fact that he had been raised up as Christian could mean that he had emotional bond with that religion, without meaning that he was not a Muslim. Btw, some of the sultans whose mothers were Christians, were more friendly towards their Christian subjects than others. Sinan may not had been Greek (he may as well had been of Armenian descent), however, in his early years he was Greek Orthodox (according to most sources, including Britannica), and the issues of nationality and nation-state did not have the same evolution for all ethnic groups (the Byzantine Empire ended its history as a Greek nation-state, almost by the modern meaning of the term and in countries like Japan, Scotland or or Portugal, nationality had been already formed when Sinan was born). Perhaps it is cause of Sinan's past and special interest for Greek Orthodoxy that his only work on Greek soil, Osman Shah Mosque[5], has remained standing, restored and in perfect condition (including its minaret), and has not been demolised like others. Regards Hectorian 09:23, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Why are you trying to put Sinan's ethnic and religious orientation in the spotlight?--Doktor Gonzo 14:42, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Galatasaray players

Yes, they are real. I believe they have played for Galatasaray recently, which is why they added them. CanbekEsen 19:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Kurdish flag

Would you please join the discussion in Talk:Kurdistan? Thanks a lot.Sangak 20:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Baristarim, would you please review my additions to [[6]], I tried to add contents and references. Thank you, Barefact 00:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Please help

Baristarim, could you please review [[7]], I tried to add contents and references. Thank you, Barefact 00:34, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Media

Please do not blindly add media files in articles, they can mess up the article structure. It was not appropriate for Turkey, for example. Rather try to add them under see alsos, references or external links. Thanks.. Baristarim 06:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

You must be the blind one. :) for the media files were not added in the article. As you exactly said, it was added under the subgroup of "media" (newly formed) like the other subsections you listed. Media is a recognized subsection and used as such in other articles like references, links etc. You may want to consider stopping your territorial reversals, if you can. (excluding your rough language that may be a clue for hostile work environment):)) DADASHIM 06:56, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

In fact, no.. Turkey article is currently in the process of WP:FAC to become a Featured Article, and if you ever take a look at other FA articles like Canada and Australia, you won't see a "Media" sub-section :) That article's structure was formatted per FA criteria. What rough language? Cheers! Baristarim 07:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The use of Media subsection is not inclusive or exclusive of country related articles. It can be part of any article. See John F Kennedy article where there was a preexisting media subsection with a video fragment of inaguration where others can add pertinent media files. Turkey article is no exception and video - music -speech files can be added as needed. DADASHIM 07:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I need a written wikipedia reference indicating presence of media files precluding featured article status (in any article category) and or the use of media files is unprofessional. I am very curious. Also, you may be sadly mistaken and may be passing up on an improvement that would bring extra points in your article (unless you have convincing written wiki guidelines suggesting not to use media subsections) DADASHIM 07:17, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Please be careful about not breaking the three revert rule. if you read the guidelines, it clearly indicates that the reversals should come from three different people against one contributor. In your case, you keep obsessively reverting three times, not three independent users/contributors, and since you are not the contributor, you are actually violating the common courtesy rules , if not any other formal guidelines.

Uh, no.. It means three reverts, not three people.. :)) Baristarim 07:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok my dear. lets count the reversals shall we?

• Daddy - Contributes, Barister - Reverses (first reversal)
• Daddy - Recontributes (1st reversal), Barister reverses again (second reversal)
• Daddy - Restores again (2nd reversal), Barister again(third reversal)
• Daddy - starts thinking whats going on, Barister comes and gives a warning to the contributor for the 3rd reversal that Dadddy hasnt done.
• Daddy wonders further and tries to explain that reversals should come from more than one person for the contributor to blame.

Warnings are given before breaking WP:3RR. That's standard procedure. I reverted only twice, have a closer look... By the way, be careful with civility as well.. Thanks.. Baristarim 08:02,

Exactly. Not very civil to warn the contributor when it is you who is just about the revert the third time, not him? Right? OH no, cant be right. (We are out of sync, so lets stop :)) DADASHIM 08:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

)) BTW thanks for the transfer of the links to US relations and linking to Ataturk with punctuations. I appreciate it.

DADASHIM 08:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

No problems :) Baristarim 08:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Project page!

I tried to improve the project page. It was not very user friendly and it needed to have a better organization to promote cooperation... What do you think? It is far far away from these goals. --OttomanReference 06:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

It? Is he talking about the frog in his pocket? Can he come and give me a hand with the baggage?

Türkiye Portalı

Merhaba geçenlerde Türkiye Portalını seçkin portallara aday gösterdim Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Turkey/archive1. Fakat bir Vikiproje Türkiye üyesi dışında kimse oy kullanmadı. Gelen karşıt oylarla kabul edilmemiş oldu. Lütfen oyunuzu kullanın.--Absar 12:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Sağol Barışcım, Mevlevi'lerin yeni resminide ekledim. Daha renkli duruyor. Onu beğendin mi? Zaparojdik 15:08, 06 January 2007 (UTC)

Turkey

The temperatures have hyphens, but should have en dashes or minus signs (−).

You need to get someone else to copy-edit the whole article. Fresh eyes are required. I could go through the whole text identifying the same density of problems. Try the League of Copyeditors. Tony 13:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not that bad? Well, I pointed out a high density of problems in just a few windows of text. I don't edit FACs myself, I just critique. It's not "compelling, even brilliant" as required by Criterion 1a. The only way is to find someone else with fresh eyes to go through it—at least an hour's intesive work to iron out all of the bumps. Why not try the League of Copyeditors? They're good. Tony 15:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Nationalities

That category is for Turkish people, Greek or whatever is via being citizen of Turkey. That's how they are categorized. For example Arnold Schwarzeneger is not included in Austrian actors rather than american ones. they all belong just to People by descent, turkish, greek or whatever. Just to tell you there was a similar case with yours one year ago. A person put the Greek Cypriots under the category of Greek people and after warnings he was blocked. He was said that this is a category for Greek citizens. What I am telling you is general accepted KRBN 22:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Please read my note above again. If your reasoning is correct, then there is no reason they should be included under "Cypriot etc" either, they are not citizens of the Republic of Cyprus, right? That's all. In any case, you are erasing a lot of important and relevant information, even interwikis. In fact, it is so much that even the VandalBot reverted you. Please be careful with 3RR as well. Please see WP:BIO as well. Thanks. Baristarim 20:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Even if I was accepting you r argument (however 99% of turkish cypriots have cypriot citizenship and they are requesting for that even Denktas' grandsons) that they are just citizens of KKTC, they are considered Cypriots, since they are from the island of Cyprus. Turkish Cypriots in wikipedia had never problem of that, even the supporters of the so called "KKTC". The Bot reverted me because I forgot to sign not because agrees with you. KRBN 22:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with them being under "Cypriot X". And do not politicize this issue as if you are trying to get one over someone :) I don't give a rat's ass about Denktash's grandsons. I have three passports, so what? The so-called "KKTC"? :) Well, it looks like I am not the one politicizing this issue. Nevertheless, the problem is you are deleting a lot of information that needs to be there. No, the VandalBot reverted you because you also deleted interwikis, alumni cats etc. Please read WP:BIO if you have not done so yet, do not erase information that needs to be there. You erased a whole birthdate and place information from one of the biographies. Baristarim 20:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The bot sent me a message that I have to sign. I have not deleted irrelevant categories. I already explained you why they must not be included. This is something common. There are a lot of Cypriots abroad but they do not belong to category:Cypriot people but to people of cypriot descent. That happens to every article, not only cypriots. In the first time I spoke you, I already explained you the reasons that must not be included. KRBN 22:55, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

You didn't explain this [8], however. Not only you removed info that needs to be there per WP:BIO, you even removed the interwiki to Turkish Wikipedia!! If I wasn't assuming good faith, I would be suspecting some serious POV pushing there. Then you accuse me of being a vandal, give me a break man... Baristarim 21:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Nor this [9], where you removed METU alumni category, or this [10] where you even removed the Living people category, along with his birthdate and birthplace, that also is required to be there per Wikipedia policies. As I said, if I wasn't assuming good faith, I would be suspecting some serious sneaky POV pushing. Please do not make such disruptive edits in the future. Thanks. Baristarim 21:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I didn't observed that I deleted it. Sorry. I just reverted it and I didn't observe that someone put the correct year of birth. This is no problem and we don't disagree. The problem and difference between us is that hte article must bot be under turkish x rather than turkish cypriots and cypriot x. If you want to create a category, called Turkish Cypriot X, no problem for me. KRBN 23:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

No, it's ok, I have no problem with "Cypriot X" category. :) I hear your reasoning and as long as you are only going to modify the categories, then it's fine with me. In any case, I don't have much time to devote to this unfortunately. Cheers! Baristarim 21:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Categorization of Turkish Cypriots

Greetings Baristarim

I've not had the time to properly check what is going on here, but I do have some experience with the category system, so please allow me to stick very closely to that. In my experience, KRBN will be correct in saying that the category tree is based on nations, not ethnicity. To use my own nation as an example: Category:Danish people is a child of Category:Denmark, it is not the other way around. The following is a bad example, but it is the best I can think of at such short notice: If I were to tag an article about a member of the Danish minority in Germany, say one of the ethnic Danish local politicians in Schleswig-Holstein, I would consider this person to be represented by Category:German people and - if we were talking about a politician - I would classify him under Category:German politicians. If it was relevant that the person also had strong contacts with Denmark, I would use both a profession category based on the nation the person is a citizen of (Category:German politicians) plus an ethnic category, but only if this was very relevant. Since, in this case, a "Danish Germans" category does not exist, I would look for a category under Category:Schleswig-Holstein. If we were talking about a Russian living (or born) in Latvia, I would use the relavant Latvian categories, but perhaps add the a "Russian-Latvian" category if such a category exists.

I know that Cyprus is a troubled island. The dispute does not only hurt everybody living there, but also both Greece and Turkey. I have not checked the Cypriot material lately, but last time I checked, the Cypriot-Greek material generally did not use the Greek category tree but the Cypriot tree, for the reason described above. You'll naturally already know the category called Category:Turkish Cypriots. Would it be possible to tag e.g. an article about a Turkish Cypriot scientist as Category:Cypriot scientists and Category:Turkish Cypriots at the same time, perhaps using something of the form "... is a Turkish Cypriot scientist ..." in the introduction? Naturally, if either Category:Greek Cypriots or Category:Turkish Cypriots is a child or parent of the any such category, the same should also apply for the other group. So far, Wikipedia practice has generally been to consider Cyprus one unit, but this argument seems to have been based on geography, not politics.

I am normally very strongly against ethnic categories in the first place, but if you and others find my first suggestion impossible, perhaps categories of the form Category:Turkish Cypriot writers might be a workable solution. However, AFAIK, such a system has never been attempted in cases such as this, and I still prefer the first system since Wikipedia generally considers the island a unit. I would find it non-standard to simply group Turkish Cypriots into the Category:Turkish people categories, and I would recommend some type of solution either in the form of a Cypriot category tree encompassing all Cypriots, or alternatively adding sub-branches to the Turkish Cypriot tree.

The argument about additional information being erased: Interwiki links, places of birth / death, alumini information etc. is all very relevant and must be included. I don't see a problem with an introduction saying that "Mr. ... is a Turkish Cypriot writer ...".

In my personal experience, I have found User:Khoikhoi both interested and fair when it comes to material such as this. The same with User:Nightstallion who is also very interested in international material. I would recommend that both of you start by avoiding further edits to the categories tonight and post messages to both of them asking for further input or suggestions. Both will also be able to give good ideas on how to procede in case of gridlock. These are just my thoughts. Please see them in good faith since this is my intention. Regards. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 21:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

:) I know what you are thinking, but that wasn't it.. See my latest post to his talk page [11]. It is a normal misunderstanding when it is one of those "darn Greek-Turkish things", I know :) But if you take a close look, you will see that my primary concern was his reverts that included even the deletion of the interwikis to Turkish Wikipedia as well as alumni categories, birthdates and birthplaces, living people cats etc. I know what you are saying about the cat system, no problems there. I was also confused since there were many different edits taking place while the professed issue was about the "Turkish X" cats. However, he explained to me that he was reverting to much earlier versions of those articles, and that's why they were being deleted. Take a closer look :) Baristarim 22:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your involvement anyhow.. We finally worked something out. Cheers! Baristarim 22:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I noticed it shortly after I'd sent my message. I am glad to hear and see this, and I'm glad that you don't have a problem with the category system. I am one of those editors trying to keep both this and the stub system in one piece, and lots of non-standard categorization is bad for both of those systems. Anyway, happy editing to both of you. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 22:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

TRNC-stub

Hi - your recent stub type creation - TRNC-stub, haas been speeedily deleted as a re-creation of previously deleted material. Cyprus-stub is used for all of the island off Cyprus, irrespective of whether it falls in the TRNC or the Greek-controlled area (or the British bases, for that matter). The Category:Cyprus stubs is not yet at a size when it would be suitable to split it, and even if it were, there is a long-standing precedent that only widely accepted international states and substates should get separate stub types. Also please note that all new stub types should be proposed at WP:WSS/P several days prior to creation, in order for discussion to take place on their potential use and problems. Grutness...wha? 22:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

You wrote: Ok, but there is no stub to regroup all TRNC related stubs together... I am sorry, but this is about the TRNC as a political entity, whether it is recognized or not. There is no political undertone. Cyprus stub utilizes the flag of its opposing state, so there is not much logic to use it for topics concerning TRNC like "politics of TRNC". The problem is, Cyprus-stub is not a geographical stub, it uses the Republic of Cyprus flag, which means that it is a political stub, right? If it used the geographical map of Cyprus, then there wouldn't be a problem. However, I didn't know about the proposing procedure. But there is still a problem with utilizing the Cyprus stub. So, what is the solution?

Well firstly the stub is meant to use a map - someone vandalously edited the flag in (I've put the map back). And no, it is not a political stub, it is forr any general, non-geographic articles relatd to Cyprus geographical items get Cyprus-geo-stub). As to TRNC as a political entity, I understand your point, but, as I said, given the size of the Cyprus stubs category, it shouldn't be difficult to find stubs relating to the TRNC in there. And though I personally have no problems with the existence off the TRNC, the problem is with editors in general. Because they are used on large numbers of articles, edit was on templates can cause considerable problems for Wikipedia's servers. Stub templates aree pparticularly susceptible to this, and also often take a great deal of effort to fix if there are problems, due to their associated category links. Any region which is of only partially recoggnised status runs into problems with its stub type. So as to minimise these probleems, disputed territories and territories without wide international recognition don't get separate templates. The problem is not so much that of any individual territory, but more one of precedent. If TRNC gets a stub type, it will be only a few days before a Transnistria one is suggested. If that is approved, then Chechnya and Somaliland are suggested. And with each small step the likelihood off a tenmplate edit was becomes greater. I realise the cut-off point of "wide international recognition" is fairly arbitrary, but at least it sets a reasonable level above which there is little likelihood of problems occurring (even then, ther aree a few problems, but maainly very minor ones). Grutness...wha? 23:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for understanding what we're trying to do :) I've added a note in the Category:Cyprus stubs to clarify things a little for editors, and with any luck I should be able to get the template protected to stop the flag appearing on it. Grutness...wha? 23:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The Working Man's Barnstar

The Working Man's Barnstar

		The Working Man's Barnstar
		You award it for your endlessly contributions. Tebrikler! - zaparojdik 22:52, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Turkish diaspora

I'm sorry, but what is this agressiveness for? "John Whatever" from Kansas, would understand maybe easier than me the difference between "Turkish" and "Turkic", simply 'cause I am not a native english speaker. In case u are interested, the equivelent of "Turkic peoples" in Greek is "Τουρκικοί λαοί", instead of "Τούρκοι", which is used to refer to the people of Turkey. Hectorian 00:35, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I know, i returned in wikipedia, after Xmas, rather stressed as well... I guess i need "vacation from vacations"... LOL. Anyway, Khoikhoi's footnote is enlightening enough for the readers, and something that i wouldn't think of doing... well, I am not an admin, nor have great expectations to be one:). as for Sinan, i would not add anything to the article about the Adrianople mosque, cause it would be totally irrelevant+suspicious. but i do believe that it is interesting info in Hagia Sophia. Ciao Hectorian 00:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I tried to keep the reference you provided since it makes it clear that the word "Turk" can be taken to mean Turkic peoples as well. And since the article is about Turks living outside Turkey, I really belive it should include that piece of information, as this is meant to be an encyclopedia after all. Atilim Gunes Baydin 01:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I had a great time, thanks! i had to look "haphazard" in an online English-Greek dictionary... sometimes, i still learn new english words... LOL:). I am also quite busy with studying lately, but i use my PC for that, so, i can make short breaks and log in wikipedia. I suppose u also had holidays, and was not working too hard these days. Hectorian 23:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

FAC Turkey

What is your estimate for the FAC Turkey? How much more work it needs? --OttomanReference 04:20, 7 January 2007 (UTC) What do you think, can we put a link to dnail, from that sentence? I would also like to see a links from that sentence to Tehcir Law and April 24 circular?

Indo-Iranian speaking nations and regions

Have you seen this template that user Anupam is putting in the Turkey, Uzbekistan and Azerbaijan articles? it includes Turkey, Uzbekistan and Azerbajian under 'Iranian' speaking, in the template, I think something should be done about it, all those nations are known to use a Turkic language, and it is accepted worldwide. Thanks!

Merhaba..

Hi.. About the recent changes in the demographics section of Turkey article, I understand your concerns and certainly respect your past efforts and I will make no further changes as of now. I only felt the need to expand another users contribution in the first place anyway, so I'm OK with staying put :) Take care --Xasf 23:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Motto

I take my comment back. Ne Mutlu Türküm Diyene sounds nationalistic and when translated it can even be manipulated to be racist. The one about the peace should stay. Kolay gelsin Caglarkoca 01:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Answer

I am answering you here.

Baristarim, you have created many articles which I disagree with its content, Neurobio has created none such articles and is answered with such a harsh fashion by me, so it could certainly not be his position. The madhouse comment is just the point of the iceberg. Are we reading the same things? I think so, this guy after I announced leaving Wikipedia had left a message to Cool_Cat to come back, who was still on probation and adviced not to touch the article(he was even for a time forbidden to touch the article). This same guy has spammed with Thoth the talkpage over and over again. This same guy bringing back what has been addressed over and over again. This same guy has openly called this article trash and requested a "Jihad" on it. Those are just few examples. Not to say his personal association with the author of tallarmeniantale. I will always refuse to work with this guy, and past one administrator who defend him, it would not be long for any editors to see that he is not a well intentioned person. What hurts most in all this, is that the same administrator who gave me a barnsar for my contribution on this article is also the only one who is defending this guy. If you want to contribute to the article, I will appreciate that, but there is no question that I will respect a racist idiot who calls my douzens of hours of contributions trash, and who had build a personality specifically to attack my credibility here on Wikipedia. This guy own an apology for all the crap he did, and has yet to stop with his prejudicial comments. Fad (ix) 02:51, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Request for Feedback

Hello, I am trying to improve the article Hamparsum Limonciyan. I made a request for feedback Wikipedia:Requests_for_feedback. Any pointers you might have as to what the article needs would be appreciated. --Free smyrnan 08:51, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Cease and desist—stop your missorting

Please stop moving articles such as Usak Airport if you cannot add the proper sort keys so that the articles are indexed properly in categories. Go back and fix that one and any others you have messed up the same way. And go back and fix the double redirect you left at Usak Airport, too. And cite reliable sources for your moves. Gene Nygaard 16:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

? I am sorry, am I missing something here? "Articles I messed up"? If you had taken a closer look, you would have seen that I spent time fixing the links in the article, the ones to the city and category were not working because someone used a very weird character. The city's name is Uşak, any more questions??? And I fix hundreds of redirects all the time, as well as many spelling errors, so it is normal that I can forget one or two things. If you were so interested in the article, why were the city name and the category name showing up as red links? And you can also try to see WP:AGF; if I had ever seen another user make a spelling correction move and that it left a double redirect, I would have fixed it myself. It would have taken less time for you than writing to me in any case :)) "Cease and desist"?? :))))) What's going on, am I under arrest? And what sort keys are you talking about? I actually fixed the links in that article, and I really have a hard time following your weird sort key argument [12], is something "missorted" there? In any case, the next time I forget double-redirects just leave me a msg "hey, you forgot a double redirect(s) here, can you fix them? Thanks", instead of a tirade about how I messed something up etc etc :)) Cheers!Baristarim 22:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I fixed the misindexing of Uşak for you,[13] which resulted in the article being missorted in its categories, by adding the appropriate sort key. Now go fix the rest. Gene Nygaard 22:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Listen, you better stop treating others as if they were some vandals like you did here [14]. There is no source that says that the city's name comes from "lovers". Any unsourced information can be deleted. And there is no such thing as "alternative transliteration". I will fix that as well. "revert deliberate missorting" has absolutely no meaning, I know how sorting works. There was no reason for you to blindly revert like you did here [15]. Had you taken a closer look, you would have noticed that I hadn't touched the first letter, which is the only important letter for sorting. I am very careful with my work, but as I said I also forget certain things. There is no reason to modify anything except the first letter. I reverted you at Inonu, and it still shows up correctly in its categories, take a look if you like. Please do not do any more such modifications.. It seems like I will have to revert some of your other blind reverts. Please take a look at your own work before you order others to fix I don't know what.Baristarim 23:13, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

No, the first letter is most definitely not the only one important for sorting. All the letters—in fact, all characters, of whatever sort including spaces and apostrophes and hyphens and whatever—are sorted (we sometimes use that to get some articles to the top of the category listing). So go fix them. Gene Nygaard 23:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

And you stop doing blind reverts, inserting unsourced and dubious information as to how a city's name comes from "lovers" and adding senseless fact tags. If there were any missortings, I will fix them in due time. Baristarim 23:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Football AID 7 Jan - 14 Jan

Thank you for participating in the Football AID vote this week.

USSR national football team has been selected as this week's collaboration. Please do help in working to improve it.

Respect: Ataturk NOT Atatürk

You have broken links thinking doing an innocent change. Please respect the English Character Setç It doesnit include ü!!! Onganer 20:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

What links are you talking about? I tried to fix them as much as I can. The article's name is Atatürk, and the spell check also fixes Sao Paulo to São Paulo. And it does include "ü", take a look here at Düsseldorf. See A Coruña, Côte-d'Or et al. You are confusing the Latin alphabet diacritics with other alphabets. Wikipedia is in English language and the Latin alphabet. Because it is possible to write English in the Arabic alphabet, aynen Turklerin Cumhuriyet'ten once Arap alfabesi kullandigi gibi. However, if I have broken any links, just let me know and I will fix them. I had tried to my best to fix them when I was fixing the spellings. Cheers! Baristarim 22:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Only links that I have fixed are the ones that have a redirect. Click on Kadikoy and tell me where it leads you :) Baristarim 22:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Denial page

I don't mind your version, it's just that if you read that sentence out of context it sounds like Turkey and Armenia have disagreements regarding the genocide thesis, that implies that Turkey accepts a genocide but disagrees about certain aspects with Armenia, which is obviously not so...-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 00:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Terrorism categories

If you had actually looked at the Terrorism in Kazakhstan page you would have seen that these organizations are banned in these countries as terrorist organizations. As for the "words to avoid" - tough. There are tons of these categories and numerous Terrorism in country pages. Do not remove the categories again. KazakhPol 02:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you new to Wikipedia? Is this your first time editing? Do you have any idea what WP:3RR is? KazakhPol 02:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

You need to review WP:3RR, WP:CIVIL, and WP:OWN. No one "owns" Wikipedia pages. I can remove any comments I please from my talkpage for any reason. If you do not understand how userpages work then read Wikipedia:User page. KazakhPol 02:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

You said you can do anything with your page. I wonder who is breaking WP:OWN here :) Do NOT remove legitimate warnings, it can be considered as vandalism. And please cut down on ad hominims. There is nothing uncivil in what I said, and the warning were legitimate, and the posts are relevant.Baristarim 02:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

No, the very fact that you posted a WP:3RR warning on my talkpage after a single reversion was uncivil. It's not an "ad hominim" attack. Accusing another user of vandalism when they revert incivility from their talkpage is at best a demonstration of unfamiliarity with Wikipedia's policies. The warning was not legitimate. I can remove any comment you post on my talkpage and I do not have to state why. Do not add your past comments on my talkpage again. KazakhPol 03:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

At this point I suggest you admit you were wrong and uncivil on WP:AN/I and you might escape a block. Unlikely though. In the future you need to remember that you do not own Wikipedia pages and you do not post WP:3RR warnings after a single reversion. KazakhPol 03:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

?? :) Baristarim 04:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicities

Hi Baris, following this;

Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.)

the first part of this sequence of propositions proves you right BUT please take a closer look at this "unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". Now, Yilmaz Guney and people like him in Turkey have all got exceptions in this case for their ethnicity to be included boldly because relevant to the subject's notability; he's criticism of Turkey, the laws that have restricted him to make his films in Kurdish. I urge you to watch his documentary, From Adana to Paris, and see what he has to say about his ethnicity. These are important names for both Kurdish people and Turkey, it is the Kurdish culture contributing to modern Turkey. Same principle applies to other Kurd artists. Ozgur Gerilla 02:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Terr in Kaz TFD

Surely you did not mean my posting of this template was vandalism?[16] KazakhPol 04:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm an oldie. If you look at the history of WP:V you will see it used to redirect to the policy on vandalism. I have edited Wikipedia since 2002 unto other usernames. After a few months of inactivity in 2005 or '06 I chose KazakhPol as my username and this is what I currently use. KazakhPol 05:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Regarding how PKK is Communist, I recently read Ahmed Rashid's Jihad: The Rise of Militant Islam in Central Asia, in which he says the Saudi Arabian government gave significant funding to the IMU - an organization that is openly affiliated with Al Qaeda. One would ask why the Saudis funded an organization that wishes to overthrow them. My point is that in Central Asia there are stranger bedfellows than PKK and the IMU. KazakhPol 06:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Respect: Ataturk NOT Atatürk

Baris, thanks for your quick response but please do not change anything on Ataturk High School of Science. That is the link you have broken. Please do not do any changes related to that name or page. It is your own will to change others but you are quite mistaken about your statement below. Statement: 'Wikipedia is in English language and the Latin alphabet.' Argument: Wikipedia is in several languages and each language has its own alphabet and en.wikipedia.org is in English and uses the English alphabet not the Latin alphabet. Another example is tr.wikipedia.org is in Turkish and uses the Turkish alphabet not the Latin alphabet. You would be correct to say that it uses ideas and characters from the Latin alphabet but the latin alphabet is totally different. Like 'ü'. For an English reader this causes problem. An English reader wouldn't be able to read it. A German maybe could understand what you mean but an English reader wouldn't. See Tokyo. It isn't refered to with its Japanese alphabet. But the Japanese version is given with a paranthesis in the begining.

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