Bengleman
Joined 21 October 2016
Latest comment: 8 years ago by Bengleman in topic Help me!
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Help me!
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Please help me with fixing airport pages. It would appear that a user named ZYXW used a bot to edit all of the airports pages with different IATA and FAA codes to include a statement that says, "Although most U.S. airports use the same three-letter location identifier for the FAA and IATA, XXX Airport is assigned YYY by the FAA and ZZZ by the IATA..." This statement is untrue. As a matter of fact, MOST U.S. airports don't have an IATA code at all. MOST U.S. airports aren't listed on Wikipedia, either. Of the airports which have both an FAA and an IATA code, it is only a bare majority of them (like MAYBE 55%) which share the same code for both systems. So this statement doesn't belong on a single one of the pages where it appears. Every time I see it, I must say that it bugs me to no end. Since a bot was clearly used to insert this statement literally HUNDREDS of times on hundreds of pages, a bot should be used to remove it. How can we go about fixing it? Thank you.
Mister Sparkle (talk) 04:14, 14 November 2016 (UTC)Mister Sparkle (Bengleman)
- The first step is to include the user you mean in this discussion, and allow them to explain. There's no need to use obfuscated usernames. Can you please link a page with such errors, and the username of the bot? —Hexafluoride Ping me if you need help, or post on my talk 07:23, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
- Do you mean Zyxw? Letter case matters (ABC is not Abc or abc). —Hexafluoride Ping me if you need help, or post on my talk 13:06, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, that was the user I meant. Thank you for explaining that to me, and I'm sorry for not realizing the case-specific situation. One example of a Primary Airport where this statement occurs is in the second paragraph of McClellan–Palomar Airport. I am sure that the user meant well, and as a matter of fact a large number of airport stubs could use something, ANYTHING really, to improve/increase their content. But you can fly from one GA airport to another, covering just 100 miles, and overfly anywhere from 5-25 airfields and small non-towered airports which are assigned numbers by the FAA but which IATA doesn't even know about. The FAA does, because they have to, but even sites like AirNav and FlightAware don't recognize their identifier codes because they are so rarely used (though this doesn't preclude the listing of some which fit this description, such as Dinsmore Airport (California), or are privately owned and operated for a very small number of users. Thank you for educating me a little bit, and I will ping you for assistance once I figure out what I'm doing. Mister Sparkle (talk) 14:31, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
- I've checked the cited refs, and indeed there's an error regarding CRQ. Because the ref lists IATA codes. However, I looked up the information given in the article, and found that it's accurate. Here's the FAA info page (CRQ), a page showing IATA (CLD) and ICAO (KCLD). You can also look it up directly on the IATA database. There seems to be a problem with WMFlabs at the moment, so I can't use any of the hosted tools to check which user added those refs, or find the specific bot you're mentioning.
- I'm sorry if this part wasn't clear. In no way have I intended to mean that there was incorrect information in terms of what codes are used. What I'm saying is that the statement itself, that "most airports use the same code for the IATA and the FAA" is what's untrue. There are so many airports that use different codes, or which do not have an IATA code at all, that the statement basically is just filler. And the fact that MOST airports don't use the same code means that the statement itself is untrue. That is where the accuracy is an issue. Take, for example, the fact that there are something like 19,000 airports in the United States, and that almost 14,000 of them are privately owned & used, and have a 4-digit FAA code that is a combination of letters and numbers. Almost none of those has an IATA code at all, and NONE of those that do have one will have the same code as that of the FAA. This represents the VAST majority of US airports. I'm sorry if you were under the impression that I don't know the code for most public airports within a few hundred miles of me, much less my home airport. You had requested an example of somewhere this statement appears. I'm not sure how I gave the impression that I was claiming either KCRQ or CLD isn't a code used for Palomar-McClellan airport, but I'm sorry nonetheless that I somehow managed to convey that to you.Mister Sparkle (talk) 01:59, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
- Oh I see! I misunderstood, sorry. I think WikiProject Airports will be of tremendous help on that, even if the number of articles is in the hundreds. And I didn't realize that the statement is a template, this should make things easier. I see that you've already started a discussion at the WikiProject page. It wouldn't hurt to also add a link to that discussion on the template's talk too. —Hexafluoride Ping me if you need help, or post on my talk 07:46, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if this part wasn't clear. In no way have I intended to mean that there was incorrect information in terms of what codes are used. What I'm saying is that the statement itself, that "most airports use the same code for the IATA and the FAA" is what's untrue. There are so many airports that use different codes, or which do not have an IATA code at all, that the statement basically is just filler. And the fact that MOST airports don't use the same code means that the statement itself is untrue. That is where the accuracy is an issue. Take, for example, the fact that there are something like 19,000 airports in the United States, and that almost 14,000 of them are privately owned & used, and have a 4-digit FAA code that is a combination of letters and numbers. Almost none of those has an IATA code at all, and NONE of those that do have one will have the same code as that of the FAA. This represents the VAST majority of US airports. I'm sorry if you were under the impression that I don't know the code for most public airports within a few hundred miles of me, much less my home airport. You had requested an example of somewhere this statement appears. I'm not sure how I gave the impression that I was claiming either KCRQ or CLD isn't a code used for Palomar-McClellan airport, but I'm sorry nonetheless that I somehow managed to convey that to you.Mister Sparkle (talk) 01:59, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
- I've checked the cited refs, and indeed there's an error regarding CRQ. Because the ref lists IATA codes. However, I looked up the information given in the article, and found that it's accurate. Here's the FAA info page (CRQ), a page showing IATA (CLD) and ICAO (KCLD). You can also look it up directly on the IATA database. There seems to be a problem with WMFlabs at the moment, so I can't use any of the hosted tools to check which user added those refs, or find the specific bot you're mentioning.
- Yes, that was the user I meant. Thank you for explaining that to me, and I'm sorry for not realizing the case-specific situation. One example of a Primary Airport where this statement occurs is in the second paragraph of McClellan–Palomar Airport. I am sure that the user meant well, and as a matter of fact a large number of airport stubs could use something, ANYTHING really, to improve/increase their content. But you can fly from one GA airport to another, covering just 100 miles, and overfly anywhere from 5-25 airfields and small non-towered airports which are assigned numbers by the FAA but which IATA doesn't even know about. The FAA does, because they have to, but even sites like AirNav and FlightAware don't recognize their identifier codes because they are so rarely used (though this doesn't preclude the listing of some which fit this description, such as Dinsmore Airport (California), or are privately owned and operated for a very small number of users. Thank you for educating me a little bit, and I will ping you for assistance once I figure out what I'm doing. Mister Sparkle (talk) 14:31, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
- Just out of interest, is there any reason why said airports lack articles? Are they not notable enough or do they not have the required codes? I see your specialism is aviation. When this issue blows over, I could help with their creation if you like :) Uamaol (talk) 11:10, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
- That's a good question. The reasons, I think, vary. Some of them are very obviously excluded with good reason: they are private and only used by a small number of planes, and info about them is generally restricted to the fact they exist. Others, I think, are newer airports that only recently have been acquired or built by public entities. There are, with only a few exceptions (such as Cable Airport, which is privately owned but public-use), almost exclusively only public-owned and -used airports listed in Wikipedia. I think this serves the purpose, although there are a few public airports that I think deserve pages, and I'd be happy to go back and try to identify some of them. One other reason is that I suspect there aren't very many editors who are able to stay current on information, and those of us who are generally get dizzy trying to imagine how to go and update all of the pages or we are clueless how to go about creating them. For example, there is a new NPIAS report which has reclassified a large number of airports, and has further sub-categorized all General Aviation airports, and I would like to edit the Wikipedia entries for the airports, but I don't really know how to do anything other than individual edits, and I'm looking at something like 200 GA airports in the state of California alone. Lastly, since it is mainly pilots who know about these small airports and their features, most of the info they have will be of a non-encyclopedic nature or won't have much available supporting documentation to provide needed citations, as it will come from first-hand experience. I really appreciate your offer of help, and I will take you up on that when I am prepared with sufficient data to begin such an undertaking. Thank you againMister Sparkle (talk) 14:31, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
- The editor who first added the content about IATA vs. FAA codes to the McClellan–Palomar Airport article was Hawaiian717 back in 2006. Luckily, Hawaiian717 still is active on Wikipedia (at least from time to time), so they can be contacted. Given that this is ancient history, it may be more efficient to start a discussion at WT:WikiProject Airports. Editors like Zyxw, who did not originally add the content but happens to be familiar with semi-automated editing tools, may be able to think of a way to easily resolve this issue; it seems, however, that those paragraphs have undergone quite a bit of rewriting since they were originally added; thus it may be difficult to remove them via automated tools. Still, establishing a community consensus that they should be removed seems a good first step, particularly when we're discussing content that possibly is included for a decade or more in dozens, if not hundreds of articles. Huon (talk) 21:33, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
- I was probably thinking of the IATA -> FAA direction, where airports in the US with commercial service tend to have identical IATA and FAA codes; CLD/CRQ being an exception. -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 21:23, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
- Makes perfect sense. I think if the template were changed to reflect that, it would be terrific. Thanks for coming and explaining that! Mister Sparkle (talk) 21:21, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- I was probably thinking of the IATA -> FAA direction, where airports in the US with commercial service tend to have identical IATA and FAA codes; CLD/CRQ being an exception. -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 21:23, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
- The editor who first added the content about IATA vs. FAA codes to the McClellan–Palomar Airport article was Hawaiian717 back in 2006. Luckily, Hawaiian717 still is active on Wikipedia (at least from time to time), so they can be contacted. Given that this is ancient history, it may be more efficient to start a discussion at WT:WikiProject Airports. Editors like Zyxw, who did not originally add the content but happens to be familiar with semi-automated editing tools, may be able to think of a way to easily resolve this issue; it seems, however, that those paragraphs have undergone quite a bit of rewriting since they were originally added; thus it may be difficult to remove them via automated tools. Still, establishing a community consensus that they should be removed seems a good first step, particularly when we're discussing content that possibly is included for a decade or more in dozens, if not hundreds of articles. Huon (talk) 21:33, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
- That's a good question. The reasons, I think, vary. Some of them are very obviously excluded with good reason: they are private and only used by a small number of planes, and info about them is generally restricted to the fact they exist. Others, I think, are newer airports that only recently have been acquired or built by public entities. There are, with only a few exceptions (such as Cable Airport, which is privately owned but public-use), almost exclusively only public-owned and -used airports listed in Wikipedia. I think this serves the purpose, although there are a few public airports that I think deserve pages, and I'd be happy to go back and try to identify some of them. One other reason is that I suspect there aren't very many editors who are able to stay current on information, and those of us who are generally get dizzy trying to imagine how to go and update all of the pages or we are clueless how to go about creating them. For example, there is a new NPIAS report which has reclassified a large number of airports, and has further sub-categorized all General Aviation airports, and I would like to edit the Wikipedia entries for the airports, but I don't really know how to do anything other than individual edits, and I'm looking at something like 200 GA airports in the state of California alone. Lastly, since it is mainly pilots who know about these small airports and their features, most of the info they have will be of a non-encyclopedic nature or won't have much available supporting documentation to provide needed citations, as it will come from first-hand experience. I really appreciate your offer of help, and I will take you up on that when I am prepared with sufficient data to begin such an undertaking. Thank you againMister Sparkle (talk) 14:31, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Update: I discovered this is actually a template, so I took it to the Airports project talk page, as suggested above by Huon above. Again, I'd like to thank everyone for trying to help me with my question, and to assist me in working to correct it. Mister Sparkle (talk) 02:35, 15 November 2016 (UTC)