User talk:Berig/Archive 3 (February 1, 2007 - June 23, 2007)

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Please do not rv my change of troll it was a ancient tale from Stockholm when i grew up. Will you please put it back on.

Sutton Hoo

Thanks for that, how very interesting that is about the maternal grandparents. Has anyone mentioned this (in respect of Raedwald) in print; or can you supply a reference directly to this custom? I agree it is worth mentioning. Actually Newton's theory is several theories: he's interested in the fact that Wealhtheow may have been from Britain, and I think his best line of argument is the suggested identity of Hrothmund of the East Anglian dynastic tally and Hrothmund the son of Hrothgar. Sam is a Wuffing addict! A single sentence could express your point effectively, provided it has a reference: otherwise it will 'float' and look like a theory. Best wishes Berig, Dr Steven Plunkett 06:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

vis-a-vis the fostering (or knesetja?) topic, the nearest I have got so far is a section in Paul du Chaillu's The Viking Age (London 1889) Vol II, pp 42-46. He says

It was the general custom among the chiefs and other leading men not to have the children reared at home, but to have them educated with some distinguished friend for the future duties of life. Those who received them were bound to treat them as their own children, with love and kindness; and there are many examples in the Sagas of the great love of the fosterparents for their foster-children.

He cites the adoption of Sigurd by King Hjalprek, with Regin as his foster-father, in Volsunga Saga chapter 13; also Olaf's fostering of Thorleik's son in Laxdaela chapter 27, and the story of Aethelstan of England and Harald Fairhair in Fagrskinna, chapters 21-2. One's a bit mythic and the other two a bit late, but this will do at a pinch, and can be improved upon if something better turns up. I'll slip a sentence or two in and you can amend as you like. I wish I knew my way round this material better. I like your explanation very much. Dr Steven Plunkett 12:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for reply. I can see them waving goodbye with their handkerchiefs from some wyrm-girt sea-ness! Some authorities (whose opinion I share) feel that the Snape ship-burial is the first of the three in East Anglia, i.e. second half of 6th century, which would make this family's connections with Eystein & co go back a generation or two. The close tie between Sutton Hoo mounds 1 and 2 have always seemed to me that the person buried in Mound 1 (?Raedwald) was buried (like Scyld) swa he sylfe baed, and the ship above the chamber in Mound 2 was a sort of experiment conducted by the same person in a previous funeral, perhaps for his father, which was then improved and perfected for his own. But if Snape was earlier, there must have been many people around who could remember it, or hearing about it, so the custom was already understood. And the precise die-link with the Mound 2 drinking horns and the probable similar shield there do reinforce the idea that these supposed gifts related precisely to one family. All very interesting. I'll be gone from Wiki now for a couple of weeks, but look forward to getting back to it. Keep up the good work, your articles on Hrolf Kraki and co are extremely useful and models of impartiality! Best wishes, Dr Steven Plunkett 09:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Berig! It is very reassuring to know of your watchful presence. I am recovering from an illness just now but hope to be back among the ancients before too long. Best wishes, Dr Steven Plunkett 19:24, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Steven! I hope that you get well soon.--Berig 19:45, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Berig, I am so grateful that by adding that ext link you drew my attention to the new literary treatment of the Sutton Hoo excavation. I have now read it and it has caused me to create a page about the new book, see The Dig (novel). It has caused some paranoia in various circles! It cannot be considered a historically factual account. I realise that WP is not the place to write a damning review, and I don't necessarily wish to damn everything about it, but I strongly felt there ought to be a clear statement about its un-historical character. Do you think (may i ask) that what I have written at this new page remains within suitable perameters for a WP article? I'd value your opinion very much. Cheers, Dr Steven Plunkett 09:09, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Sigurd

You're right, Arminius isn't a german or teutonic name. It's in fact a latin name that derives from the word armenium a vivid blue, ultramarine pigment made from a stone from Armenia, due to the piercing blue eyes of Sigurd, a feature which many among the Germanic peoples have to this day. I think it's important to mention that in the article. But to this date, I haven't find the way to incorporate this information to the article. Being the one who had an objection about my first attempt, have you a suggestion on how to formulate it in the article? Your help will be appreciated. If you have some, leave your suggestions on my talk page please. FenrisUlven 15:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Sigurd Arminius

I understand your point of view, and I have a great respect for your detail to the ethics. I just want to ask you if it's possible to include a paragraph that suppose or theorize a little bit more deeper than just puuting a link to the Arminius article at the bottom of the Sigurd article? There is surely a way we can expose it without the state of indeniable fact. The people who use wikipedia.eng must know about that. Thank you for your attention. For my part, I'm searching for reliable sources... FenrisUlven 18:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget 'Irmin'

Arminius's name may derive from the proto-Germanic name which became 'Irmin' which means power, and thus may not come from a Latin word but instead be a Latinisation of a name with 'power' in it. 86.140.250.47 12:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

When you edit

Hi Berig. Thanks for your contributions to various articles.

When you make contributions to articles dealing with the history of Sweden, could you please reference them (inline references as best)? This would be most helpful for us non-historians, for example when dealing with people advocating alternative historical theories. It is especially valuable concerning topics that are so full of misconceptions as the early Swedish history.

Fred-Chess 15:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

If you find any edits controversial, feel free to add this kind of tag: {{fact}}, as that will help me and others identify the spots where you need to go to the library to check out facts. Best,--Berig 15:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok. / Fred-Chess 17:10, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

DYK

On 2 February, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Kjárr, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--Yomangani^talk 12:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Leaving

I was convinced that I was defending referenced information in the article Kjárr which I had written and nominated for DYK. After a discussion at Scandinavia, User:Dusis was disrupting the aricle to make a point. User:Circeus stepped in and protected the page in Dusis' version which made me understand that he considered me to be in the wrong. I obviously have no grasp of Wikipedia policies and consequently I rid WP of my existence so that its quality will be better maintained. Good bye everyone.--Berig 08:58, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Berig, you are one of the best editors I interact with at Wikipedia. The bureaucracy and arbitrary enforcement of policies is maddening, and obviously some users know how to play the system to antagonize those with a low threshold for bullshit. Don't give them the satisfaction. Take a break and come back when the flies aren't so thick on all of the bullshit. Well wishes. - WeniWidiWiki 09:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Berig, you are a kind, constructive, helpful, polite, erudite, and extremely useful editor. Please stay with it. I have only been with wikipedia a month, but I know already it needs people like yourself to stay on board. Hang in there if you possibly can. Dr Steven Plunkett 09:55, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree with the gentlemen above. I'm sure lots of other editors would too, if they were aware of the situation. Please reconsider! The admin simply protects the current version of the page [with a few exceptions for biographies of living people). It doesn't mean they judged the issue in any way. Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Take some time off, relax. "No-one can do everything but everyone can do something." / Fred-Chess 00:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

An article which you started, or significantly expanded, Níðuðr, was selected for DYK!

On February 3, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Níðuðr, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

Thanks for your contributions! Nishkid64 22:24, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

New Nordic articles you may be interested in

• Thorolf Kveldulfsson
• Thorkel of Namdalen

--Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 23:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Raven banner

FYI... your input would be appreciated. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 23:11, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Military History elections

The Military history WikiProject coordinator election has begun. We will be selecting seven coordinators to serve for the next six months from a pool of sixteen candidates. Please vote here by February 25!

Delivered by grafikbot 13:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Mythical doesnt equal Myth

@Berig I didnt mean anything degrading or negative when i used the term mythical. I thaught it was the right term for the lombard saga, legend. Because to me the title Lombard Traditions seems more like an annual fiest of the lombards rather than an epic story. So i didnt mean anything bad by it. -- Lll03

Berig, sorry

I didn't realize that the page been edited before I saved..kept the page open too long while being distracted by other things in real time. I'll go back now and fix it whatever I deleted by mistake. Sorry. I've been waiting for you. ;) Knew you'd have valuable info on that subject.. struggling with this alone is miserable, and time consuming. Pia 22:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll check out those links ASAP. Sweet dreams. Pia 22:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to see you've left

I for one found your material very interesting. Whatever you do, take care. Valentinian ^{T / C} 21:54, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The Snorri Award

		Germanic WikiProject award
		I, Odin Rex, hereby award you the Snorri Award for your work in Germanic articles. 08 April 2007. King Óðinn The Aesir 20:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Image:Hagen. Målning av Peter Cornelius (1783-1867)..jpg listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:Hagen. Målning av Peter Cornelius (1783-1867)..jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. grendel|khan 23:09, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Norse history and culture

In spite of our differences, I thought I mention this to you, in case you decide to return to Wikipedia. / Fred-Chess 16:56, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Vikingeætten

hvis du kan dansk så vil jeg anbefale dig at læse Vikingeætten ; Kristen Møller; ISBN 8798634208 Håbet 12:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

O I am sorry - I accidentally removed a chunk there... 150.108.235.22 19:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Nornir

Great job. This article has long been an embarrassment. Haukur 16:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I will continue working on it.--Berig 16:39, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Raven banner

Thanks for pointing out Raven banner; I got a ref and mentioned the banner too. There is so much on Ravens in the northern hemisphere and in ancient and modern lore it is tricky to figure out how inclusive one should be, especially when there are 3 chil articles on lore. I had a thought that maybe the Raven Banner article should be renamed Raven in Norse mythology or something as the article starts off about banners then segues off into other (very interesting) material. cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 10:31, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Your pre-Iron age revert

I did not appreciate your reverting for "being incomprehensible". Talk is for clarifying and I would have explained the meaning of Elbe Germanic, coined by Swartz to distinguish the Germanic dialects spoken in "Suevi" territory in the Elbe region. This area resembles the geographical distribution of Jastof better that the "West Germanic" territory as mentioned, the false claim you restored. Also, you reverted my correction to "Lower" Rhine for being the ultimate western border of Jastov, since just to quote "Rhine" (a very long river) is false and make me wonder about how sincere you were in discussing my good faith. Rather, together with you already having deleted my previous communication here, I worry about yours. Rokus01 07:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Rokus01, but I have to revert incomprehensible edits which add unreferenced information. I am glad that Dbachmann is around to discuss your theories about the origins of the Dutch nation.--Berig 07:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes I am just to kind to throw away utter nonsense or the advocacy of just one side of the story. In such cases I try to add information to provide more balance. Your reverts seem to have another intention. Thanks for making me aware of this. Rokus01 09:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Your equation of the Jastorf culture with the Suebi is either original research or POV-pushing, or at best an exhibition of innocent ignorance or misunderstanding, because tribes that are not universally considered Suebic are also associated with the Jastorf culture. The way you changed the text to add this information made the text highly confusing, and my revert was highly qualified.--Berig 10:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Disar thank you back

Thank you back for your kind words today about the witte weiven, I like the work you're doing as well on the Disar and ancient Eddic myths. Denmark is on Holland's northern border so they share many things. If you are getting into the Eddic mythology and these ancient beings (like I am) you might like the following source that I've been using which has a wealth of information not yet posted: Marshall Jones Company (1930). Mythology of All Races Series, Volume 2 Eddic, Great Britain: Marshall Jones Company, 1930. They are at my library in the non check out section so it is pretty slow taking notes and transferring but it is worth it. Goldenrowley 05:24, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip! There is so little work done on eddic material on Wikipedia, and a lot of the Norse mythology articles need a good overhaul. If you have good material on Dutch elves and disen, please don't hesitate to add it. I am also very curious about the Dutch trolls, the drolen (correct spelling?). All I know about them is that the French word drôl is derived from them.--Berig 05:35, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll be happy to look into the drolen ... thanks! Goldenrowley 06:03, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Re: Days of the week

I was not reverting without discussion you could see the discussion above. Do not issue such warnings. The way, the truth, and the light 07:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Your reverts are trolling or disruption at worst, or an exhibition of ignorance at best. The latin lunes dies was translated into Monday during pagan times when celestial bodies were associated with divinities.--Berig 07:35, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Nornir again

"A runic inscription from the High Middle Ages from the stave church at Borgund in Norway confirms the dual function of the norns: 'The norns determine good and bad things and they have brought great sorrow to me.'" - Simek, Rudolf (translated by Angela Hall) (1996). Dictionary of Northern Mythology. D. S. Brewer. ISBN 0 85991 369 4 page 237

Maybe you could give this a look in Rundata, I'd be interested in seeing the inscription in the original language. Haukur 15:05, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

For easy reference, I have the runes and the transliteration of the database in a single word file, and I have found it:

N 351 M

• þo=rir * ræist * runa=r * þessa=r * þan * olaus*mess*o=æpþa=n ¶ ...r han * fo=r * he=r um ¶ ÷ bæþe= =ge=rþo= =no=(r)ne=r * uæl * o=k * il=la * mikla * møþe ¶ g skapaþu * þær mer
• Þórir reist rúnar þessar þann Ólausmessaptan, [e]r han fór hér um. Bæði gerðu nornir vel ok illa, mikla mœði ... skôpuðu þær mér.

I will make a new article about it in a short while. Thanks for the tip!--Berig 15:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow, that was quick! Thank you :) I think it's interesting that the verb 'skapa' be used. There are a couple of places in skaldic poetry where "sköp norna" occurs. Haukur 16:17, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I guess the semantics of individual Old Norse words must be a rich source of amazement to us who are used to the modern meanings. I come to think of how eiga has created a debate because of its use on some of the Jarlabanke Runestones.--Berig 16:23, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you!

Berig, thank you for your numerous improvements to the growing nebula of articles regarding Germanic paganism on Wikipedia. As others have noted, you've contributed tremendously. I personally very much appreciate it and hope to see you around for a long time! :bloodofox: 04:51, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

The same to you :).--Berig 10:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Medieval helpdesk

Hi there Berig. Is this the Wikipedia:WikiProject Norse history and culture's medieval help desk at youtube? Suppose live demonstration like that could be useful when editors object to the use of ref tags because "nobody reads the books in these stupid tags anyway"? He, he. At least there is a way to show how, in case it's becoming a lost art. Sorry for the long communication break. Hope all is well (well, strike that..I can see with my own eyes, that you are in high gear, in superb form, in good spirits, etc, etc simply by looking through the massive list of high-quality new articles and additions with your signature attached.) Got to go read me some more from that list now. Uhm, the arrow pointing to the left above the list leafs forward and the arrow pointing to the right closes the screen? ;) Best wishes, Pia 20:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

It's a great idea---I've added it to my watchlist, but I'm afraid to sign up as an active supporter/contributor because I have an awfully hectic period ahead. Again. Love the fact that the project exists though and will definitely keep it on my radar. Best, Pia 21:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thanks for your kind words of welcome, Berig! --Dependent Variable.

Alberich

Thank you for adding a picture for Alberich today I am so pleased.. with all your hard work on the Norse and German mythologies they will be done in no time. You're contributing a tremendous amount to the mythology and I can't wait to read some of the new things. Goldenrowley 00:41, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Re: The Nix talk page

Cheers Berig,

I did indeed look up Jag vill så gärna berätta... by IBSN, and that's how I found out that it's fiction, i.e. filed as imaginiative literature or skönlitteratur in Swedish, which makes it shaky to use as a reference on a page attempting to present traditional beliefs about the Nix. Even more so concerning the page one year ago (when I wrote that comment), which was worse when it came to unsourced claims and mixing of traditional/late romantic/modern ideas of the Nix.

Had I wanted to say the book was fictional or nonexistent, that's what I would have said. Check the word choice and you won't need to accuse other editors of accusing other editors of making things up. :) Amphis 22:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

True, it is filed as fiction because it is a collection of stories from real life and local legends made by a radio talker. However, as far as local folklore is concerned, I consider it to be a relevant and legitimate source.--Berig 06:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you

Berig, thank you for your help (and for your sweet message). Hope we don't have to include a transliteration of the entire codex to satisfy the user in question. That will take a lot of images (and time). :) Best wishes, Pia 07:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Rhinemaidens

HI. I notice you doing a lot of article merging such as Rhinemaiden to Nix. Just wanted to pass along the tip it is considered good etiquette to put {{r from merge}} on the redirect pages. This tells the editors a merge took place and they'll preserve the history. Also Richrd Wagner is not "sacred" he made a lot of things up. I added just a tiny bit about Nix.Goldenrowley 08:12, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I was not aware of the {{r from merge}} procedure, and I am sorry if it made you take offense. I don't understand what you mean by "sacred", but thanks for the interesting contribution you made.--Berig 08:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

No problem and no offense taken... sorry if it sounded that way! it must have been late at night, I was just passing along some information how to merge articles. Regarding Richard Wagner, the Ring is fictional telling of events, not from ancient folklore...similar to Shakespear I guess who used myths but made up his own stories. Goldenrowley 22:56, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Volsung sources

Dear Berig: I have no interest in edit warring with you or anyone else; you began by reverting me. Nor did I ever claim to be an expert in Norse mythology. Nor do I have any problem in citing primary sources. The problem is that Volsung cites no sources at all, neither primary nor secondary. Where in Volsung do you see citations to the primary literature? Wikilinking to other articles, if that is what you are referring to, does not constitute citation of sources (see WP:CITE). Since you have the primary sources at hand and know the literature, why don't you simply create a Sources section in Volsung and add the citations, and then we can all be happy and be in compliance with WP policy; I am not going to add the sources that you listed because I have not read them and therefore cannot vouch for them. If I am missing something something here, please tell me what it is. Thanks. Finell (Talk) 04:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

You say that I began by reverting you, whereas the history says that the first revert was yours. If you are unable to spot four (4) sources in the first two paragraphs, and the table {{volsung}} on the right side of the table which mentions four sources, there is nothing I can do.--Berig 04:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Dear Berig: I really do hate to belabor this, but (1) this edit of yours reverted this edit of mine; that was the first revert. (2) Wikilinks to other WP articles, whether in the body of the article or in a table, are not citations of sources. If you read WP:CITE, you will not see a single instance were linking a WP article suffices as a source citation. I am really sorry that I have not been able to persuade you of this. Finell (Talk) 08:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

You have to understand that it says nowhere on WP:CITE that naming the primary sources is not citing. If this question is so important to you, why do you insist on plastering dubious tags, instead of adapting the sourcing to *your own* preferences?--Berig 08:38, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The Great Lacuna

You can "see" it here.[1] Pick GKS 2365 4to. Sigrdrífumál ends incomplete on 32 verso and Brot af Sigurðarkviðu starts (...saka vNit) on 33 recto. Tormod Torfæus has written the notes indicating the lacuna. More information on that from Sophus Bugge here: [2] Haukur 15:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, it's really interesting seeing the original source :).--Berig 15:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is :) There are a few doodles in there. There's something which looks like a dragon's head on 35 recto (Sigurðarkviða in skamma, from 17 "...rofna svarna eiða eiða" to 36 "yðr um líkr...") Fáfnir? Haukur 16:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Great! I have saved the picture of the dragon, and I'll use it in the Fafnir article as an illustration. It has ears and I guess that those ears are the same as the curls that runestone lindworms have at the back of their heads.--Berig 16:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I didn't mean to jump to conclusions but it's a nice image :) There's also a dragon head on 43 verso (which ends with Atlamál 100 "Da/þr varþ inn hvnsci drap...") just after Sigurðr is mentioned. Haukur 16:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I agree that it may not be Fafnir, but I like images that are more contemporary with the sources. I am of two minds between medieval pictures and more decorative recent works.--Berig 16:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Eddic poems

Okay if I do Atlamál? Haukur 09:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely, please go ahead :).--Berig 10:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd prefer to keep the succession boxes consistent with Codex Regius; we could modify the headings to clarify that they refer to the CR only. Whether the Eddica Minora poems need some sort of boxes too I don't know. Haukur 18:31, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Sure, then we'll stick to the order of CR. I'll see if I can figure something out for the minora group.--Berig 18:35, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Winge et al.

I got lost admiring the paintings on the National Musem site. Very nice! Haukur 20:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Unfortunately they have not made most pics available yet, but I am still happy to have discovered the site.--Berig 20:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. Would be nice to have more of Wahlbom's works, for example. Here's one, though: [3] Haukur 21:03, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Can't be one of his most decorative works, though :). I will be gone for the weekend, so I will not edit for a few days. I will see if I can get a pic of the Karlevi Runestone when I am gone.--Berig 21:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, very nice! Have a good trip :) Haukur 21:16, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Freyja

Thank you so much for the contribution! I don't have enough in the way of resources at home to really make much of a difference in the wording of the article, so i've been trying to encourage those who make edits to do so in a constructive fashion; you've really gone above and beyond. Lucky number 49 21:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks :).--Berig 21:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Odinic names

By the way, many thanks for your contributions to the list of Odinic names, and all your other work for that matter. Between you, Sigo and myself I think the recent collation of names has helped improve the article immensely. Cerdic 18:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I am glad to see your work too.--Berig 21:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)