Bigbotnot2

June 2024

Hello, I'm ObserveOwl. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Orient, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 20:26, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I think you have made a super racist mistake without realising. In the page already it states it is offensive and racist. In the Uk, racists use the term and therefore deleting my correction is just fuelling this. As an East Asian, I am disappointed that you took this upon yourself rather than just adding a reference.

Besides, there are few references to even use that would be acceptable as it is largely word of mouth. There is a divide on who finds it offensive because they haven’t experienced in this way. Despite this, it is still important to recognise it to discourage racist use. In some cases, like in this one a reference is not necessary when I have stated I am Asian. I would not lie for no reason.

Here is some informal evidence so you can educate yourself:

https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2023-03-22/-Oriental-Is-it-racist--1imahiJ8u0U/index.html

I would appreciate if you would reinstate my edit as without it, it is dangerous and racist for the Asian community. Bigbotnot2 (talk) 13:55, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

There is consensus on Wikipedia that CGTN is an unreliable source, and it is even deprecated. See WP:CGTN. ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 16:19, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia did say that but in this case I don’t believe it is relevant as it is quoting an individual who has experienced it. But fine I can provide more:

https://www.weareresonate.com/2016/07/oriental-racist-term/

https://www.jstor.org/stable/26749972

Reality star Dorothy Wang: Don't call me oriental https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-40714775

I can personally attest to this racist word as I have been called oriental and had my eyes mocked in one sentence.

Hopefully this is enough because the longer it stays up the longer we still have this issue. Bigbotnot2 (talk) 16:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Could you provide a few quick quotes from those sources that state that the term is racist or a slur outside the US? ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 16:51, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Of course :) Let me know if you need more because I am just skimming it and picking ones I like because it is hard on my eyes.

Resonate by Alice King (a brit)-

1. “It stings of an archaic colonial vision of East Asia, which just isn’t appropriate to drag up and impose on anyone in 2016. Though the term lives on in the UK, finding itself overlooked.”

2. “The term is a big no-no in the states and is used far less colloquially than in Britain. Though why has the term in Britain been allowed to limp on longer?”

3. ”This is the most common defence of the use of ‘Oriental’, that it is innocently clarifying a geographical region in Asia. On the surface this seems uncontroversial, until you start assessing that ‘The Orient’ has not ever actually been a firm geographical region and thereby is further redundant.”

4. “These establishment might be run by individuals of Asian descent but they are marketing themselves towards people of a European vantage point, playing on a Eurocentric idea of the East.”

Jstor-

I would quote the first one fully but it refers to the n word n I don’t feel comfortable using a slur that is not mine.

at the bottom on page 3 under “how have countries dealt with offensive terminology”

1. “In Britain the main vehicle used by institutions to deal with such racial terminology has been through guidance. In that recently issued by the judiciary ‘n word/n word’ and ‘oriental’ are deemed to be not acceptable.”

That is then referenced by “14

Judicial Studies Board. Race and the courts. London: Judicial Studies Board, 1999

15

Judicial Studies Committee. Equal treatment bench book: guidance for the judiciary. Edinburgh: Judicial Studies Committee, 2002”

2. ”The Public Guardianship Office, Department of Constitutional Affairs, and Court Service have since similarly advised that ‘oriental’ should be avoided ‘as it is imprecise and may be considered racist or offensive” 16

LCD Headquarters and Associated Offices, Court Service, and Public Guardianship Office. Diversity aware- ness: avoiding inappropriate terminology. London: LCD, 2002

The BBC one is quite short but it is the tabloid most brits read so they are aware the term can be offensive. Bigbotnot2 (talk) 17:17, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I actually found more that would could further back my point.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-10-13/debates/858E78B5-1049-4480-A1A7-5362FC12F47E/ChineseAndEastAsianCommunitiesRacismDuringCovid-19

This is from an official Uk government debate.

“A month ago, police chiefs warned that the far right is using covid-19 as an excuse to attack what the Metropolitan police describe as “oriental people”. We do not have enough time in this debate to unpack what is wrong with that term, but it is 2020, not 1920.”

This is said by Sarah Owen, Labour MP for Luton North who is East Asian.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/19/perfume-industry-decolonisation-oriental-exotic-racism2/

“The perfume industry is facing calls to ban the use of the words ‘oriental’ and ‘exotic’ to describe scents due to their alleged racist connotations.

A petition on Change.org calls for an end to the ‘offensive’ and ‘derogatory’ terms. Launched by Canadian perfumer Dana el Masri and carrying more than 1,100 signatures, it states: ‘This petition aims to reclassify “Oriental” and “Floriental” in the fragrance industry. We want to discontinue their current use and replace them with terminology based on raw materials and their olfactory attributes, which form the foundation of perfumery” Bigbotnot2 (talk) 17:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Is weareresonate.com reliable? Their About Us page doesn't talk about the editorial policy, which contributes to reliability. Or, has Alice written for other reliable publications about terminology, i.e. is she a subject-matter expert?

The Jstor doc is interesting - although saying that it is "not acceptable" or "imprecise" isn't directly saying it is a slur, it does mention that the Public Guardianship Office and others deem that it "may be considered racist or offensive". It helps, but I don't think it is enough to conclude that it is considered - it says "may" and that is a bit vague.

The BBC article apparently just says that it is considered offensive in the US. Whether British people read it or not is irrelevant - Wikipedia cites sources that directly support the material.

Re the UK debate: It's not directly saying that it is a slur, it just says there is something wrong with the term. She could be saying it's imprecise, not necessarily pejorative.

The Telegraph: The journalist is not directly saying that it is a pejorative term, it's just referring to a Change.org petition. ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 18:20, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

The Jstor directly says it is racist and offensive and should be avoided. The page that I wish to change says the term is acceptable and okay to use. So even with this it is enough for a change Bigbotnot2 (talk) 18:28, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

"The page that I wish to change says the term is acceptable and okay to use" where? ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 18:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Under Current Usage and the British English section

”In British English, the term Oriental is sometimes still used to refer to people from East and Southeast Asia (such as those from China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, Myanmar, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Mongolia, Brunei and Laos).”

“"Orientals" refers exclusively to people of East and Southeast Asian origin, who constitute approximately 0.7% of the UK population as a whole. Of these, the majority are of Chinese descent.” Bigbotnot2 (talk) 18:32, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Nothing there suggests that institutions are ok with it. ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 18:35, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

??? Sorry what do you mean? Nothing in that suggests that it is even remotely offensive. Bigbotnot2 (talk) 18:39, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

The Jstor doc says that some institutions find it unacceptable, not that British citizens generally find it unacceptable. ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 18:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

We do though. Some racists use it of course. But British East Asians have recognised it as offensive. The Jstor document is actually referenced as evidence in the East Asians in the UK page. It isn’t about if the British public find it offensive because a lot are inherently racist. If the governing bodies have decided it is offensive and not politically correct it doesn’t matter what the public think. If we are pandering to the white British racists then I don’t know what to say. Bigbotnot2 (talk) 18:57, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

In the East Asians in the UK page it referenced another article. Judges have said it is offensive and racist. I have given enough evidence if this isn’t enough it’s literally silencing and ignorant. https://web.archive.org/web/20120126144933/http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/judges-given-new-advice-on-political-correctness-563204.html Bigbotnot2 (talk) 19:00, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I think a good compromise would be including in the article the fact that the judges said that. This way, readers of the article will be presented with more context about how some people see the term in the UK, and it would let them think for themselves whether it makes the term pejorative in the country. ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 19:35, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I edited the article and took what “East Asians in the United Kingdom” said because at the end the day East Asians decide if it is offensive not the everyday public. You wouldn’t ask the public if the n word is offensive so I’m not really a fan of your opinion. Bigbotnot2 (talk) 19:38, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Hm, I don't know what you are referring to with "your opinion", but what you added is fine. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia! ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 19:50, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Your reply back I find incredible ignorant and not very nice. It seems as thought you care little about Anti-Asian Hate. Bigbotnot2 (talk) 19:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

? I am just asking what particular opinion you disagreed. ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 19:54, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

“I think a good compromise would be including in the article the fact that the judges said that. This way, readers of the article will be presented with more context about how some people see the term in the UK, and it would let them think for themselves whether it makes the term pejorative in the country.” Let them think for themselves??? It’s up to East Asians not white British individuals. This seems sweeping and ignorant. Bigbotnot2 (talk) 19:55, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

What I meant is that in order to avoid making conclusions from what sources say, which is generally prohibited, editors should generally just write text with the same meaning as the source. The Independent journalist didn't say in their own voice that it would make it a pejorative, for example, so it's best to err on the side of caution and not draw conclusions as editors, but readers are allowed to. ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 20:06, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

And that would be have been fine if you did say that but it came across quite differently. Bigbotnot2 (talk) 20:07, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Okay, my sincere apologies for the misunderstanding. Happy editing! ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 20:09, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

We are resonate is reliable page for East Asians so share experiences Bigbotnot2 (talk) 18:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Where is the editorial policy? That is the key factor for reliability of publications. ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 18:31, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh I don’t know what that is but it is Europe’s biggest East Asian culture website. A lot of people know about it and it uses Asian Voices. If I am looking about Asian opinions I go there. Bigbotnot2 (talk) 18:34, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Just because a website says it is the largest in a topic, doesn't mean it is. What I meant by editorial policy is whether the website is known for their fact-checking practices. Also, the page looks like editorial commentary, which I suppose would often be acceptable as a primary source for an attributed opinion, but not for facts. ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 18:49, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I would like to say that East Asians in the Uk page on here recognises it can be offensive in some contexts. So naturally shouldn’t that be added to the actual page of the word? Bigbotnot2 (talk) 18:51, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi Bigbotnot2! I noticed that you recently marked an edit as minor that may not have been. "Minor edit" has a very specific definition on Wikipedia—it refers only to superficial edits that could never be the subject of a dispute, such as typo corrections or reverting obvious vandalism. Any edit that changes the meaning of an article is not a minor edit, even if it only concerns a single word. Thank you. --VViking_TalkEdits 14:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I know I unclicked it Bigbotnot2 (talk) 14:59, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello. I wanted to let you know that in your recent contributions, you seemed to act as if you were the owner of a page. Everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to Wikipedia. This means that editors do not own articles, including ones they create, and should respect the work of their fellow contributors. If you create or edit an article, remember that others are free to change its content. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you.--VViking_TalkEdits 14:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello,

I am not sure why you are commenting at me when I made a small change to the article regarding racism but let me explain my point of view.

In my opinion, such things cannot be changed by non-Asian people freely as it requires discretion. Thus someone changing it could be seen as ignorant. Unfortunately, as a result of this change I did experience racism away from this page online using this page as reference. In no way have I said that I own the article nor have I made it seem that way. Yes I made numerous changes because English is not first language and I did not like the wording; that is not a crime. With more sensitive pages like that one, the group it is written about should have more say on their representation. Therefore, those not affected should think carefully how they approach this. This is likely where the confusion stems as yes I do and should have more on a say on how I am represented when what is written in that page is racist and has caused issues for many East Asians in the UK.

Anti-Asian hate is very prevalent and it is a shame that I continually have to experience this on here when I am changing a page to fit the correct definition. I carry a responsibility and duty as an Asian person to see that my community are represented well, that is why I had to write numerous times asking individuals to not change it back. Since changing it I have in fact been faced with ignorance over my edit which I feel is highly unfair. This is meant to be a space for everyone but unfortunately I have been treated differently. I would appreciate if I am to be treated with respect and am allowed to be here freely without racism.

I am a new editor because I am a little tired of seeing blatant racism on here and welcomed people changing my wording or referencing but asked to refrain from making incorrect changes as that would be misinformation. I did think I would get some curious people asking to explain but instead I have been faced with ignorance.

That being said I do not mind answering any questions that anyone has. I hope this is not an ongoing issue.

Have a nice day, Bigbotnot2. Bigbotnot2 (talk) 15:25, 14 June 2024 (UTC)