Ccui123

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Midwest Football League (1962–1978)

Do you have a source for these edits? From my research, it does not seem there was an actual "title game" for the league until the 1969 season. Eagles 24/7 (C) 22:06, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I'm taking it from Bob Gill and Tod Maher (who are "Pro football Researchers"'s leaders of the field of "minor-leagues") book- "Outsiders II: Minor League And Independent Football, 1951-1985". They wrote a short info about the league, but published some of the league standings (until 1976) and some of the "All-league" teams. I'm still waiting for your other seasons standings, because they had some discrepancies in the 1963 season, and still not verified the 1967 season (as some of the records you wrote includes non-league games). I'll try to add more info when I'll be sure. --Ccui123 (talk) 22:24, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Could you provide page numbers for the information you've added, and I'll put them in citation format to include on the page? If there are discrepancies between the newspapers I've cited and Outsiders II, I'd be happy to discuss them with you and see if we can figure out a solution. Eagles 24/7 (C) 22:35, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Pages numbers are 113-116. The discrepancies for the 1963 season for Cedarville Spartans and Lansing All Stars, but I think that in this case the newspapers are correct (they printed their records opposite to the newspapers). In the 1966 season I think the book has the right record for Dayton, as it impossible mathematically to have 3 teams with 1 tie game... --Ccui123 (talk) 22:45, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, I agree that the 1966 standings were clearly incorrect and I've added a note about the discrepancy. Eagles 24/7 (C) 23:06, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for picking up the glove on this league, it's much appreciated, I'll try to look for more info when possible, and I'll be happy to collaborate with you on the other Association of Minor Football Leagues leagues if you're willing. --Ccui123 (talk) 22:47, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your help! I'd certainly be interested to look into other minor leagues once this one is finished. Eagles 24/7 (C) 23:06, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

btw, did you encountered in other info regarding Association of Minor Football Leagues members? It's seems odd to me that the non-paying New England Football Conference was part of this arrangement (while the other leagues are truly "minor-leagues")...--Ccui123 (talk) 23:22, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

I found one newspaper article that talked about the possible formation of the Association of Minor Football Leagues, then the one about its formation that's in the Wikipedia article now. I believe two years later there's another newspaper article talking about possibly forming another association, so it appears the first one didn't last very long. Eagles 24/7 (C) 23:39, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

For the 1963 season, you added an asterisk and a note for the Detroit Rockets record. It looks like a 4–5–1 record would be 10 games, which all the other teams played that season. What's the reasoning for the asterisk in that case? Eagles 24/7 (C) 23:12, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

That's what written in the book, but it seems that you're correct on that one, maybe it should be removed.--Ccui123 (talk) 23:17, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Actually, there's now three ties listed there too, so something's wrong. Eagles 24/7 (C) 23:21, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

This are the standings according to the book: Macomb County Arrows 9-1, Lansing All Stars 6-3-1, Cedarville Spartans* 5-2-2, Detroit Rockets* 4-5-1, Petersburg Vikings 2-8, Battle Creek Bears 1-9 (*Missing result of one game). I think they were missing the game between the two and the Detroit record is incorrect.--Ccui123 (talk) 23:55, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Those standings seem pretty off. I'll leave it as is, but I added some notes to explain the discrepancies with Lansing and Cedarville. I agree that the Detroit Rockets record is likely incorrect, but I cannot find any other sources for their record so we'll have to leave it as is unless/until something else comes along. For the Bears that season, I think they should be listed in the standings as the "Cereal City Bears". I ran through newspaper searches for that season, and many of them refer to the team as the "Cereal City Bears from Battle Creek". Cereal City is the nickname for the city of Battle Creek, and I believe the team name is "Cereal City Bears". Eagles 24/7 (C) 00:32, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I think it should be "Cereal City Bears".--Ccui123 (talk) 01:12, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

@Eagles247: I think it's worth mentioning that after the 1976 season the league was essentially scale-down version of the league (closer to amateur, or semipro as we now call it now). Bob Gill regarded to those seasons as such, the article you added ("A new MFL returns") is saying it without saying it, and we can also see which league the departing team are joining, but I wouldn't want to add it without your Insight on this matter.--Ccui123 (talk) 02:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm still not sure about that. We could add something about the 1977 and 1978 seasons being "scaled-down" but some of those early seasons were smaller too, and there were some seasons mixed in that players were not paid either. When researching early on, I included some player salaries, but I quickly stopped paying attention to those since they varied so much. I wouldn't want to make a blanket statement about the league without definitive sources backing it up. Eagles 24/7 (C) 16:41, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@Eagles247:I understand your position. Even Bob Gill stop short on saying it wasn't a pro-league (he used expressions like "not on par", "scale down" and "different"), but didn't include any listings on the 1977 and 1978 seasons. From my personal research, and I'm reading between the lines here, it was closer to semi-pro then pro, but you're probably right on you're assessments. --Ccui123 (talk) 18:48, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Filling in sources

Hello Ccui123, I have noticed you have recently been adding good content about the finances of several arena/indoor football leagues, which is great. However, it would be very helpful for referencing and archival purposes if you filled in the source location/website/publisher, publication dates, and access dates (such as I did here for your addition here). It greatly aids in re-finding these sources if the url is moved and archival purposes, as well as being able to quickly know when the source is referring (such as the financial references you added to the AFL, they do not say as to when source referred to when the contracts were written). Parameters and examples can be found at Template:Cite news and Template:Cite web. Doing so make a more complete bibliography. Thank you, Yosemiter (talk) 17:56, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

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Copied or moved text from Minor league football (gridiron) into American football in the United States

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Thank you @Diannaa. In this case it was something I wrote and applied to the two articles. In that case it's still needed? Ccui123 (talk) 14:20, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Technically attribution is not needed if you are the sole author. Sorry I did not realize that was the case with this edit. So it might be useful for patrollers such as myself if you had included the attribution edit summary regardless. — Diannaa (talk) 14:22, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the prompt response :), I'll take notice in the future. @Diannaa Ccui123 (talk) 14:25, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Windy City Gridiron

Windy City Gridiron (along with most other SBN Blogs) do not comply with WP:RS and are not considered Reliable Sources. They should not be used to verify content on Wikipedia. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  22:21, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

One other thing, almost every link you have posted has been written by Jack Silverstein - Please declare now if you have any affiliation with Silverstein as there are Conflict of Interest/anti-promotional policies on Wikipedia. Thanks, --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  22:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi @StarScream1007,

I don't have any affiliation with Silverstein, but I trust him as a football historian (and he's also very respected in the football community) and all of his articles are well cited after thorough research, so I believe it could be an exemption to the SBN Blogs rule (as we can say the same thing about the fame Rick Gosselin who's writing in a self published site).

In the bottom line, those citations enrich the articles I updated and follows the rule of the community. Furthermore, in some cases, those links are better then the ones on "verified" websites, as it includes better information/background (like in the Charles Tillman example). Another example is Sid Luckman‎ article, which I was able to add the record without any citation (as it linked to another wiki article), but chose to add it for further reading.

I hope it clarifying my intentions, as I tried to add a "bigger picture" to those articles. Ccui123 (talk) 14:19, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I'll add to that, when you consider what is "rivalry" fan blogs are good indications if it's a rivalry or not. Ccui123 (talk) 14:37, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply. Self-published sources may only be used as sources of information about themselves. Blogs are generally unacceptable.

1. "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer." (WP:SPS) In other words, an article written by Silverstien should only be used in a Wikipedia article about Silverstien himself.
2. "Content from websites whose content is largely user-generated is generally unacceptable. Sites with user-generated content include personal websites, personal and group blogs (excluding newspaper and magazine blogs), content farms, Internet forums, social media sites, fansites, video and image hosting services, most wikis and other collaboratively created websites." (WP:CPC)

I’m not disputing that Silverstien’s expertise or knowledge, but any content he adds needs to be from a reputable source, not a SBN Blog. There are some minor exceptions and one-off exceptions for an SPS, but, there are more reliable/reputable sources out there than Windy City Gridiron. Again, nothing personal against WCG, I read it often, but it should not be used on Wikipedia, let alone show-horned into articles to verify information that already has other reliable sources. Thanks,  StarScream1007  ►Talk  15:51, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your replay @StarScream1007.

I just want to be sure not to repeat the same mistake again, what is the rule about sports historians, as most of them are publishing it on blogs, self published site etc. oppose to books, which where more common 20 years ago? Again, Rick Gosselin (former journalist and HOF voter) or even Silverstein (former journalist and published author) as an example.

Also, what do I do with the examples above (Charles Tillman and Sid Luckman‎)? Do I add a lesser citation from more reliable source (or both together/ none at all)? Ccui123 (talk) 16:02, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

No worries. It would come down to if a reputable source directly references something Gosselin or Silverstein says. There's an assumption that major sources conduct fact checking before anything is published vs Junk food news. There's also a tid-bit about it under, "WP:NEWSORG", "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact".

I'd say to try something like the Chicago Tribune, LA-Times, ESPN, or Sun-Times etc if possible Twitter (or X?) is considered acceptable so long as it comes directly from the subject on an article - ie the Tweet by Tillman about the Peanut Punch memo. For Luckman, there are a few sources out there for his record 7TDs, the LA Times.[1] and St. Petersburg Times[2] Hope this helps. Please let me know if you need any other questions. Thanks, --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  16:51, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying @StarScream1007. One more question. Let's take Luckman for an example, does the St. Petersburg Times source is "better" than the WCG one? I admit it's reliable source, but does it "add" to the article as much as the Silverstein piece? There's no refuting the idea that he holds the record, it just adding a little more background.

Thanks. Ccui123 (talk) 17:09, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

As I think about that more, according to your last response, Silverstein does meet the criteria of a reliable source, as he featured on the mainstream media multiple time to discusses his WCG articles (1, 2, etc.) Ccui123 (talk) 17:40, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

The goal of sources is to verify content. It's actually not to provide any further information or enrichment, and are only chosen by how reputable, un-biased, or verifiable they are. It's a bit a grey area, if a reputable mainstream source discusses something Silverstein worked on, the content may be added to Wikipedia - ex: "In an interview with 670 the Score, football historian Jack Silverstein explored Halas' exclusion of black players" or something along those lines. The reference used to support that statement would need to be the 670 the Score video/article, not the WCG since that is self-published. I could see other editors challenging the material since the ultimate source is WCG, but I personally probably would not challenge it. I hope this helps, --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  18:12, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you @StarScream1007 Ccui123 (talk) 23:56, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia and copyright

Hello Ccui123! Your additions to Halas Hall have been removed in whole or in part, as they appear to have added copyrighted content without evidence that the source material is in the public domain or has been released by its owner or legal agent under a suitably free and compatible copyright license. (To request such a release, see Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission.) While we appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia, there are certain things you must keep in mind about using information from sources to avoid copyright and plagiarism issues.

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It's very important that contributors understand and follow these practices, as policy requires that people who persistently do not must be blocked from editing. If you have any questions about this, please ask them here on this page, or leave a message on my talk page. Also, do you have a source for the cost, $20 million, and the replacement of the original Halas Hall? [3] Thank you. Tails Wx 17:43, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Tails Wx, I thought I edited enough for it to be ok, but I accepting your opinion about it (although it was a general description by the team PR). Regarding the $20 million - It wasn't my original edit, I just edited the text that was already there.

Regarding the renovation info, do you think it will be ok if I'll add quotation? Ccui123 (talk) 18:09, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by a "quotation", but if it is a reliable source, I'll allow it. But please don't restore the unsourced text without a source and remove the copyright violation template. Tails Wx 18:14, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Copying and pasting an entire paragraph with no context, even with a source, is not helpful. It's just laziness. Please paraphrase it or write it in your own words. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  18:54, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi @StarScream1007 I'm working on it right now :) Ccui123 (talk) 18:57, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

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2024 National Arena League and American Indoor Football seasons

Hey @Ccui123 I was curious if you could create a Wikipedia page for the 2024 seasons of both the National Arena League and American Indoor Football’s seasons?

I would not mind keeping them up to date but I just need someone to give me a template to use for years going forward

Both leagues have announced their schedules and teams for 2024 so if you want to add those that would be awesome!

Again it would only be for this year because I could then use a similar template for every season going forward.

I wouldn’t mind helping out if you want but I don’t know what it would take for the pages to be approved or what should and shouldn’t be included in the page ParkerLyme (talk) 01:33, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi @ParkerLyme, sure we can do that, just give me couple of days :) Ccui123 (talk) 13:23, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

@Ccui123 you are legitimately awesome man!!! ParkerLyme (talk) 13:32, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

@ParkerLyme All yours ;) (AIF and NAL) Ccui123 (talk) 16:05, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

@Ccui123you are the man!! Thanks! ParkerLyme (talk) 16:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi @ParkerLyme, First, thank you for your updates, you're doing amazing work! Second, I think that the "See also" section should only include Indoor leagues (if the reader is interested in other leagues that played in 2024 he can go to "2024 in American football" category). What do you think? Ccui123 (talk) 16:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I think that would probably be best, the only league they would have to go out of their way for is the 2024 CFL season since that isn't listed under the 2024 in American football section. ParkerLyme (talk) 16:43, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

@ParkerLyme Sounds good, thanks! Ccui123 (talk) 17:40, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

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Hi @Leoneix, thank you for taking the time to mention this. I wasn't sure if I should mention it, since it's only a "draft". I'll make sure I mention it in the future :) Ccui123 (talk) 14:49, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

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Jalen Folf (Bark[s]) 15:58, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

New message from JalenFolf

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:American Arena League § Proposed split. My apologies for coming to your Talk page again, but as I notice you're involved in this subject, I figured you might have some kind of opinion on this. Jalen Folf (Bark[s]) 18:38, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Chicago Bears stadium

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