DanBoothCohen

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Moonlight Graham

Sorry to be so picky about this, but in order for the "slang" thing to pass WP:BLP, you need to show that it's in wide use, not just on a couple of blogs. -Dewelar (talk) 17:22, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

WP:BLP?? Moonlight Graham died in 1965; the biography for living persons standards do not apply. The criticism that blogs are not a legitimate source for slang is illogical. That's why it is slang, as opposed to a word in common usage. There is not a non-slang term for a batter who appears in only one game without a plate appearance.

Here are some additional references, "btw..looking at his current MLB stats, it looks like he’s on the same route as “Moonlight” Graham" "it was obvious his fate was to be the Mets' Moonlight Graham."

Here's one from the Brooklyn Paper, a legitimate news source. "Joe Hietpas could turn out to be a modern Moonlight Graham, the famed New York Giants outfielder who played half an inning, yet never got an at-bat. As a result, he has no stats, making him a ghost (whose story was a key plot point in Field Of Dreams)."

One of the sources I cited was the Houston Chronicle.

A player with a Moonlight Graham MLB record is extremely rare. There have only been 4 in the past decade. Necessarily, the term will be in limited use. However, when a player such as Dusty Brown or Joe Hietpas accomplishes this ignominious achievement, he will often be compared to Moonlight Graham.

Finally, the whole point of Moonlight Graham as a historical and literary figure is not the individual, but what he represents. He had the most nominal MLB career and became a small town doctor. That does not merit an entry in Wikipedia. He is a cultural figure precisely because, "We'll all remember the superstars, the guys who grab the headlines and then the supporting players who do something so outstanding for a concentrated period of time that the feat will remain etched in our memory. But who really remembers the Moonlight Grahams, the Larry Coltons, and the many others who hit the big club for such fleeting moments that you hardly knew they were there? Most of us don't, but thanks to W.P. Kinsella, we learned the heartening story of Moonlight Graham, who, in retrospect, represents all of those players for us, forever."

Baseball is characterized by an extensive lexicon of slang terms that are used fleetingly and narrowly, but carry clear meaning.

DanBoothCohen (talk) 22:28, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for citing the wrong link. That should be WP:BIO. And, dude, you need to seriously chill out. I'm not trying to disparage Graham or anyone else here. In fact, I'm a huge fan of the non-stars of baseball. Two of my favorite players of all time are Jamie Quirk and Fred Stanley. My issue is with the validity of your claim that the term "Moonlight Graham" was a slang term. None of your sources above support this. If it were slang, the two articles you cited (I'm discounting the blogs, because as I noted, blogs are not reliable sources) would be able to use the term without having to explain it. Neither one did so. You need to be more diligent. -Dewelar (talk) 23:21, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, I apologize if I came off as trying to argue with you. I was just trying to explain why I tagged your entry as still needing citation. You will notice that, unlike the other editor, I left the text in the article. I have now edited the text into what is, IMO, a more accurate descripton of how Graham is discussed in the media. I also put in a link to Larry Yount, who I would consider Graham's pitching counterpart, and on whose article I did a fair amount of work. -Dewelar (talk) 23:37, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Pardon me if I am not familiar with Wikiquette. I was just trying to add an interesting and pertinent entry to the Moonlight Graham page. I didn't envision it would be deleted on what strikes me as flimsy grounds. Your edits improve the text and make it more consistent with the way Moonlight Graham is used in practice. This is how Wikipedia is designed to work. I applaud.

Chicken Stanley does not inspire me. Choo-Choo Coleman had 247 AB in 1963 with 3 extra base hits - all windblown HRs, as I recall. My wife recently dragged me to an artist exhibition where a painter named van Landingham was selling his wares. I was tempted to ask if he knew a player with his name held an MLB record but thought better of it. (How does this message reach you? Does it?)

DanBoothCohen (talk) 01:36, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

It reaches me because I have this page on my list of watched pages. Any page I edit gets added to that list automatically unless I set that option otherwise at the time of editing.

Yes, I agree that the original edit was helpful. I probably just should have fixed it myself the first time (and would have, had I known someone was waiting to pounce and delete it), but wanted to see if perhaps I was mistaken in my own understanding of the terminology.

Stanley inspired me only because I was an impressionable 8 years old when he was with the '76 Yankees. Quirk inspired me because, as his career wore on, I was fascinated at how he just kept on getting major league jobs despite his limitations. I especially enjoyed his stint with the Indians in '84 (one plate appearance, one walk-off home run). I think, more than anything, I appreciate the guys who keep going out there, year after year, hoping for a chance (or another chance). Your fellow Esposito is certainly one of those.

In any case, I'm glad we reached an understanding. I look forward to your future contributions! -Dewelar (talk) 01:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

JamesMLane has re-edited the paragraph and managed to destroy the meaning. Maybe someone who confesses to be hostile to the parapsychology/quackery mindset should not be so devoted to a page about a literary ghost who emerges from a cornfield? The current entry is way off the mark. I leave it to you to honor Moonlight Graham and his kin-in-deed. You have seniority and a much better feel for the right syntax.

BTW, have you seen The Great American Baseball Card Flipping, Trading and Bubble Gum Book? One of the best ever and something right up your alley. DanBoothCohen (talk) 12:19, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of William Van Landingham, I notice the Wikipolice have not deleted the section on his nickname despite the lack of references. I provided 2 mainstream media references, plus a sample of blogs as source citations. While blogs are not a source for facts, they are representative of slang terms in current usage. Moonlight Graham is both a real person who recorded a statistical oddity and a literary character whose ghost conveys an existential meaning among baseball fans. DanBoothCohen (talk) 14:52, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

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