User talk:Deeceevoice/Archive 7

Reply

No problem. Except now I'm old and grey/gray. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 09:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Please cut down on reverting

You're doing a lot of reverting at Thomas Jefferson. This is counterproductive. Please cut down. Friday (talk) 14:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Have you been following the discussion? There is clearly substantial sentiment that the information should is not only valid, but that it is appropriate and should remain. I wonder if you've considered counseling the editors involved that censorship is not acceptable simply because they object to sourced, cited, factual information about of their sacred cows being included in an article. If you're concerned about "counterproductivity," then perhaps you might consider doing so. deeceevoice 14:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

If you read what I wrote there, you'll see that I have no wish to censor anything. What I specifically objected to what you putting the "Criticisms" section back in the way it'd been, when I'd already merged it into the "Jefferson and slavery" section as discussed on talk. I did not remove any content whatsoever, I merely reorganized. If you'd read the talk page before reverting, you'd have known that. Reverts are a brute-force type of edit to be used only in unusual circumstances. Friday (talk) 14:43, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

And I'm not suggesting you are one of those involved. In fact, I frankly don't remember your participation on the article until you raised the matter of your "merge." Actually, I found your edit note somewhat disingenuous, when your "merge" consisted of deleting a huge chunk of the text involved. That's hardly simply "merging," now -- is it? deeceevoice 14:47, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Would you mind moving the chip that's on your shoulder? It must be blocking your eyes. Here's the edit I'm talking about, where anyone can see exactly what I did: here. As you can see, everything I deleted was moved to another section. You seem very overly-quick to accused others of wrongdoing. Also, if you'd noticed, several other people agreed on the talk page that this section should be combined with the already-existant "Jefferson and slavery" section, since that's what it's about. Friday (talk) 14:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Just clicked the link, and I see what you're referring to. When I saw your edit, I did not see that the second section had been moved up. I think those particular changes are just fine and would not have reverted the edit had I seen the entire thing. And, no. Your assumption is incorrect. I don't have a "chip on my shoulder." I'm merely impatient with the entire silly business of those who do want to censor the historical record, treating Jefferson like some idol to be worshipped while churning out George-Washington-and-the-cherry-tree pap for a second-grade comprehension level. Too, I'm working on a couple of deadlines and probably not being as attentive as I should. My apologies. deeceevoice 15:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, my apologies too- I was annoyed but that's no reason for me to be snippy. Friday (talk) 15:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, if for some reason you're concerned about me advising other editors to not revert very much, here's a place where I did just that: User_talk:Welsh4ever76#Lots of reverts, a few days ago. Friday (talk) 14:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

FYI, I've restored your edits including the criticisms of Jefferson in the "slavery" section. We'll see how long it lasts. User:Welsh4ever76 seems intent on edit-warring any and all critism of TJ into oblivion. deeceevoice 16:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Hopefully with enough eyes on the article, it can be relatively stable. If Welsh4ever76 doesn't change his approach he may find himself blocked for excessive reverting- I'd much rather do that than have to protect an article. Friday (talk) 17:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Bike

So did you buy the bike? CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 16:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

ROTFLMAO. :D Can you imagine the messages the seller must've gotten? Obviously someone pulled his coat, because (if you noticed) the item has been relisted with a tastefully cropped photo of just the bike. And, no-oo-oo! I wouldn't go near that thing! deeceevoice 17:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This time I looked at the write up just above the large picture and the following stand out "SOME ATTENTION REQUIRED", "ADJUSTABLE REAR" & "NOTHING TO HIDE". CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 18:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Yep. Funny stuff. :) I check eBay for crap I don't need and find it a fairly reliable source of amusement. People are simply hilarious -- most often when they're being dead serious. deeceevoice 00:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you

Just wanted to compliment you on some nice work over Controversy over racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians, and other articles recently. I admire your scholarship and tenacity -- please keep up the good work! Best wishes, — Catherine\^talk 06:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't say Wikipedia is hopeless -- we're so clearly improving in breadth, depth, and well-referenced authoritativeness in so many areas that I think it will always be useful, in one form or another. It might help you to take a stroll through some of the less combative areas from time to time, to remind yourself of all the good, cooperative work going on -- music, science, medicine, pre-20th centuray history -- for the most part, it's pretty friendly out there.

However, controversial areas are always going to be our bane, and perhaps eventually our downfall. Those areas certainly continue to take the biggest toll on editor longevity and peace of mind. It's shameful that the areas you work on most attract so many contrary, stupid, hateful edits -- but then, it's shameful that people in the real world hold so many contrary, stupid and hateful views. It sometimes helps me to take the long view: little by hard-fought little, the articles will get better and remain better, and someday social scientists are going to be able to look at the histories of these pages as a primary source in their discussions about "racism in the 21st century." It doesn't make the day to day battles any easier, but it reminds me that eventually truth and NPOV will win out over idiocy -- even if it takes ten, twenty, or a hundred years, and even if Wikipedia itself has failed and some other organization has taken over our GFDL content and its histories. In the meantime, all these people are doing is leaving indelible evidence of their narrow-mindedness in place for all time. — Catherine\^talk 15:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Another Question

Deeceevoice, would you mind if I asked specifically what is POV and unscholarly about this edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Controversy_over_racial_characteristics_of_Ancient_Egyptians&oldid=69010038

Also: thanks for answering my other question about your edits.Altarbo 13:25, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The link is to an entire page. Exactly what edit did you have in mind? deeceevoice 14:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind, it's unimportant.Altarbo 21:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

You wanna help us out here at the Black People article?

Sure could use your help. --Zaphnathpaaneah 18:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You asked.. where have i been "there"... as in there in the Sphinx article. DeeCeeVoice, being confrontational is fine... but being confrontational as a default way to communicate is not.

Here is the answer to your question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Great_Sphinx_of_Giza#ETHNICITY_IS_PART_OF_THE_DESCRIPTION

You have offended me. Seriously. --Zaphnathpaaneah 00:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Get over yourself, Zaph. Don't play wounded with me. I'm not the one who made the seriously uptight "temple harlot" crack, which was totally uncalled for. Furthermore, your last edit to that article was well over three months ago, and I dropped a note on your page asking for your input in a straw poll a few days ago. Nada. And then you have the nerve to ask me to come to an article you're working on? Well, I could counter with the same sort of response. If you'll check the edit history of the "Black people" article, you'll certainly find me somewhere. A lot. You? "...offended.... Seriously"?

Seriously, my brutha, don't even try it. deeceevoice 00:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Now you're escalating the situation. I am already tied up with the Afrocentric/Eurocentric nuts on the Black People article. You want to throw down fine. I dont know what temple harlot crack you are talking about and whatever it may be is ancient history. Secondly, I stopped editing that article because the root cause of the issue is in the Black People article. While you argue for arguments sake, I am trying to tackle the source of the contention, thereby elimating its effects in other articles. I do not question your presence there, I ask you to participate now, as the article itself has come to a grinding halt. But yes SERIOUSLY and you want to assume you are in charge here, let go. We can insult each other and escalte this all the way to the fucking moon. Try me. Go ahead, pretend you're the default queen of the attitude. I am at my end of bullshit. --Zaphnathpaaneah 00:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

So I am trying it and accomplishing it. Shall we continue or just let the thing go. Your call. --Zaphnathpaaneah 00:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Your amnesia is so very convenient. Don't play dumb. And what is important to you is the only thing worth editing here, so much so that there's no time to vote a simple yea or nay on another matter. You presume to dictate to me what subject matter is worth my time and attention, my interest? Gotcha. And you are seriously deluded if you think the "root cause of the issue is in the Black People article." The root cause of the problem is the pervasive racism of this website, and it must be countered wherever it presents itself. What you do in Black people will have no effect whatsoever on a cabal of dedicated, racist edit warriors operating elsewhere. Don't kid yourself. deeceevoice 00:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Let me clarify for you. I am so sick and tired of americans, black and white, acting like they are the fucking Gods of the earth. Everything that comes out of someones mouth has to be an ego driven posturing attitude. Now DeeCeeVoice, you come in arguing on a whim. At this point I am unwilling to even begin to tolerate it. You and I both can deface each others pages, insult each other. i will do this all night, I will out do you, I swear to God. ([Deleted abusive language ] deeceevoice 01:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)) --Zaphnathpaaneah 00:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

And what the hell does my legal citizenship status have to do with anything? I don't know what yours is, and I don't give a flying f***. "... you want to assume you are in charge here...." Hey, I'm not the trying to tell someone else how and where to spend their time because my current project is more important than anyone else's. "You and I can deface each others pages..."? What? "... I will out do you..."? What? And who's on an ego trip here? LMBAO. U betta check yaself. deeceevoice 00:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[Deleted abusive post]. deeceevoice 01:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Damn editing conflict. READ THE ARTICLE. My last comment on that article dealt with the ambiguity of the identity. YOU YOURSELF reply later asking me to address the identity in another section. HELLO! I dont care about this temple harlot nonsense, and no one has amnesia. HELLO DEECEEVOICE THINK THINK THINK! We are in an INTERNET FORUM. That means historical postings remain available. I have not denied it. YOu see you continue to argue and fight, and today... You have found yourself in a situation where your entire talk page will be edited until your fingers bleed on your keyboard trying to keep up. No one is dictating anything. YOU CANT SEE A QUESTIONMARK AT THE END OF THE SENTANCE? GOD! The root cause of the problem is obviously the racism on the website, however the LOGICAL SOLUTION IS TO ADDRESS THE SOURCES OF NOUN IDENTITIES. THINK! IF UP is UP and someone calls it DOWN, you must clarify what UP IS! Dont kid YOURSLEF. Using the 1987 afro-defeatist routine is old and tired. I am not here to argue, but you are inciting me and I am not backing down one iota, one single instant. There will be editing conflicts, there will be a lot of text and you will have to revert your talk page throughout the night until you stop distorting my intentions my responses and my comments. I have had enough. --Zaphnathpaaneah 00:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

How naive can you be? What you do in Black people will have absolutely no bearing on what happens in other articles. The project simply doesn't work that way; it's not a Rube Goldberg device. It's this article and this one and this one and this one, another one and another one over there. "... the sources of noun identities..."? Important, yes, which is why I was involved in the article in the past. But as the key to solving the problem of systemic racism in the articles on Wikipedia? Pardon me if I laugh.

And you: "I dont know what temple harlot crack you are talking about...." You: "I dont care about this temple harlot nonsense, and no one has amnesia. HELLO DEECEEVOICE THINK THINK THINK! We are in an INTERNET FORUM. That means historical postings remain available. I have not denied it."

Uh, 'scuse me?

I put an end to that nonsense when I realized you were too uptight on the subject of Jeezus, religion and sex to engage in a little levity on the subject and squelched the "discussion." But here you come up in my space, actin' a fool and pretending to be so offended because I dared to tell you this is a reciprocal thing and that you have absolutely no say in what is, or is not, a worthwhile enterprise on this website with regard to how I spend my time. The two hardly bear comparison. Just man up and own up to your own words instead of claiming you "don't know" what you said -- and, again, get ovuh urself, blackman. deeceevoice 00:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh really? I wil tell you what im uptight about. I am uptight about everyone claiming that the real Jesus was what they say he is, but showing no proof. All of you cant all be right, because none of you agree with each other, but somehow you all use the SAAAME tactics to 'prove' yourselves. Jesus was a white, jesus was from deep within Africa, the Jesus was a femininist< Jesus was a cheuvanist, et cetra. And I am not acting. You are doing your argumentative tactic. You start off saing "dont pretend to be this" and then go on and on as if I am in some secret lie. I dont compare what is a worthwhile enterprise. I asked you to particpate, but obvioulsy you are so ultra arrogant, a mere request you interpret to be some sign of self-centeredness. Hey DeeCeeVoice can you turn the light on? "No brotha, dont tell me what do do, you think you are so important to determine if the room needs light or not, who are you"? That shit is beyond annoying. I didnt tell you what you were doing is not worthwhile, heck I dont know all of what you do on here. Do you undrestand? You make up your idea of what I think of you and what you do and then you argue that idea, has nothing to do with what I think. So you stop pretending that I am saying smoething I am not saying and get real. Saying "get real" and really "Getting Real" are two different things. Look at the reality of whats going on and stop being on auto-smart-ass mode! --Zaphnathpaaneah 01:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Uh, I don't care what you think about Jeezus. What I insist on, however, is that you come down off your high horse, stop posturing like some injured, foul-mouthed 1970s blackman whose male ego has been offended and speak to me like an intelligent adult. When you're ready to do so, then, as always, I'm here. But until then ... I don't think I have to spell that out. You can't bully me, name-call or insult me into seeing things your way. And I'm a blackwoman. We made you. Ya day-um sure cain't Mau-Mau me. I don't play that s***. :p I'm not some naive, little white girl you can send crying to her room. What? U dun loss ur damn mine? Actin' a fool in public -- and we both in enemy territory?* Like I said b4, check yasself. deeceevoice 01:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

*Harriet Tubman woulda had to shoot knee-grows like you. deeceevoice 01:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

OH but I see you still want to be the big dog, rooot rooot rroooooo. Fine, let us continue. Round Two. You yourself have been banned and censored beyond count. You cannot even start a conversation with people without inciting anger among the listners. You yourself cannot speak as an intelligent adult when you take a question and reinterpret it to be a command. Children do that. You ask a child to do something and they get offended as if you are trying to attack them. That is YOUR bullying tactic. "Dont such and such brotha". You get a taste of your own tongue and you dont like it. Now what? I'm Blackman and guess what I made you first. No one in here is from a lesbian egg-egg union, so get real black woman. We can go all the way back to the protozoa, or the atom, or adam and eve, whichever you prefer. Every child, male AND female has a mother AND a father. And if you dont want me to bully you or insult you, then STOP INSULTING ME! You cant even be original, you say 70s after I said 80s. You caught me on the day hon. You forget, you came to me with attitude first. Oh wait I forget, you re so conceited, that your attitude is a given, its a default, doesent even count does it??? --Zaphnathpaaneah 01:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay. Now, this is beyond childish. (I didn't even read the reference to which you refer. I guess it got lost in all the profanity.) An' tell ya what. Next time you see a man pull a man- or woman-child from out his punani, u b sure an' let me know, ya hear? Finally, u shd know "we made you" is just shorthand for "we know where you come from; we raised ur black ass." Day-um.) Go 2 ur room, fool. You wanna show ur ass? Fine. We both know what went down here -- don't we, darlin'? I'm done. deeceevoice 01:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Next time you find a black woman who had a child without a mans sperm you let ME know. You showed your ass a million times. All your doing is telling me that yours is bigger than mine. Go ahead and erase my comment so you can LOOK succsesful. This was beyond childish after your first response. QUESTION MARK is not the same as a COMMAND. You're done? I'm done then. All this over a Question MARK! From now on I refer to you as "the riddler". --Zaphnathpaaneah 01:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Self-contradiction about what you knew and didn't. Self-righteous, foul-mouthed bluster. Crude, abusive language. Name calling. Mischaracterizing my words and my approach. Da-ang. Read to me like sumbahdy need Jeezus! :p deeceevoice 01:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I dont care if you are white, black, alien, I dont care if you are Queen Latifah. You come at me with an attitude of disrespect for no reason. You also being a hypocrite show more of your foolishness and this time I am sick of it. You can misspell all the words in the world "yasself, Jeezus" that don't do noTHING. What you can do is choose. You can choose to be a self-righteous self-centered doublestandard jerk or you can actually realize that you initiated this confrontation by over-reacting to something... a lack of seeing my comment for what it obvioulsy was and asserting ... no attempting and failing to assert your ego onto me. Or you can go back to your "cho chu" talking and continue past hour three. I will never stop. I will never end. If you recognize that were both in enemy territory then the smart thing to do is to stand down against me and stop responding to me with your dominatrix mentality everytime we chat with each other. You're triggre happy Deecee, and you expect everyone to avoid the confrontation, you think you can control others. It will not work with me. How much more childish bullshit do you want to see on our pages? I dont care either way. You only egg me on further. --Zaphnathpaaneah 02:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

You can mischaracterize my comments all you want. My point is the very obvious contradiction. After all, I'm not the one with with Jeezus this and Jeezus that plastered all over my page. I'm not the one claiming to be a Christian -- talkin' high an' stoopin'/crawlin' low.

What I see here is an example of the kind of venomous viciousness that comes out when a person is unable to draw a line between passionate argument/logical discourse and ego. IMO, you've been behaving like an ego-driven, venomous, little ... gee, what's that word?!! You know. That word? :p Sorry to disappoint, but the power struggle you perceive is all in your head, seemingly a mere projection of something you're dealing with onto me. And you know precisely what I'm saying. After all, I seriously doubt I'm the first person to tell you such a thing. You're shadowboxing like some punch-drunk prizefighter. And it's a pretty sad sight. Time to put down the gloves and get back to the real world where people can act a fool and defend their fragile egos behind closed doors and no one's the wiser. Me, I've got work to do. Go find something that brings you peace. If you must remain combative, then meander on off and find a better punching bag for your misguided jabs, 'cuz this one punches back, and I cannot and will not be goaded into tearing into a brutha -- and certainly not here. For me, bloodletting is not a spectator sport for the enemy's entertainment. And when I cut, it goes through the bone, past the marrow. Don't let the fact that I'm a woman fool you. I don't play; my blade's a fuckin' atom splitter. deeceevoice 02:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Deeceevoice you've lost credibility and respect with me. I no longer take your perspective seriously. Poof, begone! Report me please. I DEMAND YOU TO REPORT ME. DO IT NOW. You hypocrite, you are the LAST to speak these words. And for the provocative factor, you believe that I provoked you? I spoke clearly indicating the obverse is true, but of course, like many other arrogant people, you disregard that and instead assume you are by default "right" in your perspective. When you say things like:

• 'cuz this one punches back, and I cannot and will not be goaded into tearing into a brutha -- and certainly not here. For me, bloodletting is not a spectator sport for the enemy's entertainment. And when I cut, it goes through the bone, past the marrow. Don't let the fact that I'm a woman fool you. I don't play; my blade's a fuckin' atom splitter.

You only agitate more. So you want to suggest that I calm down while threatening me sideways? I double dare you. I insist, I demand. Do your worst DoubleStandardVoice. Take your fake, ego boosting advice with you. --Zaphnathpaaneah 05:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Throughout all of this, I've never lost my temper with you; you haven't made me angry. I don't take any of this personally. And, no. I haven't threatened you. And, yes, provocation. This all started because you did not respond to a request of mine regarding an article -- not even with a note saying you weren't interested/couldn't be bothered -- yet not two days later left me a note asking for my intervention on an article. You're the one bent out of shape and spewing obscenities. You're the one making demands. You're the one showin' ur ass. And I've repeatedly told you I have absolutely no intention of returning your vitrol in like manner.

And you demand? If you're one of those self-flagellating believers so hell-bent on going before the Arb Com, then I suggest you report yourself.

Oh. And one, last thing, my ranting, frothing-at-the-mouth "Christian" brutha. You might consider removing your name from the "Category:User Wikipedia/Nice users" page -- particularly given the nastiness on your user page. (As an aside, I find it particularly odd that, on a website such as this, your first order of business is attacking another black person. It seems to me like you've got some serious issues that need attention. Such conduct would seem to confirm to me your problem of projection, that you are the person concerned about being the big, black, badass dog around here. Don't you know that the king of a dunghill is still lord of a sh*tpile? :p) Anyway, yours was the first page I'd ever seen such a thing -- and I 'bout fell off my chair. Sum helluh funny stuff dat. :p

I wish you luck in finding equilibrium. Because you need it (still). Bad. deeceevoice 05:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

In fact, Let me report the both of us. Because I don't like chickenshits that use a computer to puff up their ego and expect me to be a willing participant in their egotistical establishment. Obviously you aren't going to fly to Chicago or LA to fuck with me, and I am not going to hunt you down in DC or wherver you think you are. So lets cut to the chase, you can't cut a damn slab of butter with a ginzu. You aren't the commander and you aren't doing anything other than agitating me with your threats that you try to half-ass imply. So let's legally resolve that end of it. I solemnly swear that I have no intention or interest in causing any physical harm to you in any way. Now, on the other end of this, you need to take your own advice and use it for yourself. You certainly want and sadly think you will get the last word (your punch) and your hoping that the whole "insecure black male" routine is going to do that for you. You like to fight men because you feel that proves you are superior in some way, so you seethe for a chance to do so at every turn. FIVE times in the past you have instigated battles with me over DUMB shit. Ok DumbAssVoice let me explain to you why your irritating me. It is not my ego that is bothered. Heck, you're a five out of ten on the richter scale, you'll see my ass on websites, forums, getting more flack than your " How dare you insult the Heavenly Black Female Isis" routine will ever generate. No what irritates me is that you by default, try to dominate discourse with me in ways that are way out of proportion to whatever it is you think has offeneded you. You go on and on about egos and insecurities, as if it's not obvious that those are the very things that are motivating YOU. It's like if I knew you in person you would be that woman that constantly flips her ghetto hand in someone's face if they don't agree to everything you say, or try to laugh in someones face if they make a mistake then tell them not to be so sensitive, telling them to not act like a punk or some BS. Youre the kind of woman that thinks it's equality and takes pride to get into a fist fight with a man, then knowing that the police will arrest the black man and send HIM to jail (not you) because of bias, you get an extra kick out of fucking someone's life up. "oooh look at what i did yall I suckered him into the fight, cuz I knew he would get arrested". Thats what you are trying to do here. Trying to incite me with your threats to violate the policy to such a degree that me, not you, gets banned. After all, you need someone to step on to validate your long Wiki-rap-sheet. So let me out flank you. This conversation has ended. Any and all messages on my talk page by you are deleted and any further communication from you to me on my talk page is automatically blocked (whether it is by automatic means or by me just highlighting and pressing the delete key). I'm sure you have a witty retort ready, but in the end, look at yourself. You've alienated yourself yet again from probably one of the people who was in your corner the most. Bravo big tough girl. Bravo. --Zaphnathpaaneah 05:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Enjoy yourself.. it's a celebration!!!!

[[1]]

I hope the both of us get the absolute worst possible sanctions they can conjure up. And if that does happen, and you don't ever forget about me. Don't ever forget how you kept trying to punk around someone who wasn't even an enemy, all so you can get your ego high. Was it worth it? I hope so. --Zaphnathpaaneah 05:54, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

You can dispense with the lenghty, abusive posts. I stopped reading them a very long time ago -- except for a sentence or two here or there that snagged my eye. And, no. I won't bother following the link, because I can guess where it leads. I haven't much patience for such matters. Sad. A phrase from a very talented poet acquaintance who committed suicide some decades ago comes to mind: "... tell me how willing slaves be." deeceevoice 06:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

As the one finger points to me, the other three point to thee. Your name is now "hypocrite", that's the noun that I use to refer you as forever. --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind, how devoted you are to getting the last word. There is nothing sincere in you bringing your friend and his suicide into this conversation. You disrespect his life and death by doing so. Nothing is sacred for you, and nothing sincere comes out of your mouth. You are a perspective, not a person, and it is your perspective, your attitude that I address. Whatever issues you think I personally have, my words ring true. You are far motivated by personal desire to look tough and to come across as a master than you are to listen to others and mutually learn from each other. That is YOUR problem. Next time you find yourself struggling to contribute to an article and you have to go it alone... no even worse, watch the black people article deterioriate. Watch the Egyptian articles deteriorate. You and EditingOprah certainly contributed to me leaving Wikipedia for an indefinite period in ways that no white Eurocentricst could. Get your last word, make sure it's worth it. --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I see you've recently amended your user page to include me in your personal attacks on Wikipedians. The most telling/interesting passage that I bothered to read? (It seems really appropriate here.)

You are the proverbial sellout, the 21st century field nigga that runs to master's house to report when the "other" slaves are trying to escape. You're the one massa gives the gun to watch over the rest of us, and the one that dances for him.

And I'm the "hypocrite"? :p deeceevoice 14:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Peace in ur life. deeceevoice 06:57, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Tol' ya

Hmph. Tried tuh pull yo' coat, but u kep' it up -- 'n' ran tuh yo' massuh instead. Now u gon'. deeceevoice 06:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Afrophobia

This article could use some in-text citations for its claims. Gazpacho 23:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I really haven't done much work on that piece. Nor have I even really read it. Perhaps you should leave a note on the page(s) of the editor(s) responsible for the article or, more specifically, those who contributed the unsourced information you're concerned about. Peace. deeceevoice 04:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

All the other significant editors on that article appear to be inactive. I have removed all the material that didn't discuss cited uses of the term, and you can see what's left. Gazpacho 18:04, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

If most of the editors were black, then that doesn't surprise me. I doubt I'll get around to taking a look, either. deeceevoice 19:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I have a question....

I was browsing through the discussion history on Afrocentrism and I couldn't help but notice your rant on the Olmecs. What evidence do you have that they were immigrants from Africa? Why couldn't they be simply just full-lipped and broad nosed Indians, due to them being in a tropical wet climate? I will lose all respect for you if you defend the long disproven theoreis of hyperdiffusionists like Ivan van Sertima and Clyde Winters. Get back to me ASAP. Peace. Teth22 02:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

And just where have I engaged in a "rant" on the Olmecs? (Furthermore, I'm not here to gain -- or lose -- the respect of anyone.) Peace. deeceevoice 04:01, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

M'kay, sorry for my lack of better wording, but what evidence do you have of Olmecs being immigrants from Africa? That's the central focus of my question. Peace.Teth22 06:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Again, where did I engage in a "rant" of any kind? What about a near rant? What the hell is the problem with people around here? I'm fed up with mischaracterizations of my work. What don't you understand? It's not about what evidence I have or what I personally believe. Nor is it about what you personally believe. Whatever little I may have contributed to the article was probably centered around Van Sertima's work and, if I recall, some disinformation repeatedly inserted by certain editor(s?) regarding the purported lack of epicanthic eyefolds in African people -- which is patently false. They Came Before Columbus involves some interesting theories that deserve to be properly and accurately represented. Period. Peace.deeceevoice 11:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey Deecevoice, sorry to bother you, but can you forward me a copy of Susan Anton's e-mail (s) to me? My e-mail address is sicilyties@hotmail.com. I need it for the sake of revision of the article, yes I'm working on the article yet again. Peace. Teth22 01:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

The e-mails cannot be used in the article; they are considered original research. deeceevoice 05:17, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

But could you just send it to me anyways? I remember you saying "you'd be more than happy to forward anyone a copy of Anton's e-mail", I e-mailed Anton several days ago, and she hasn't responed back. Thanks. Peace. Teth22 11:37, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Certainly. Use the link to the left to e-mail me your addy. deeceevoice 11:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Will that e-mail work for ya. Get back ot me. Peace. Teth22 17:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Controversy over racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians

Please don't post unsourced negative material about living people, according to WP:BLP. Talk pages come up on search engines. Thanks. Tyrenius 01:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

You gotta be kiddin' me. My, my. Slow day, huh? deeceevoice 01:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Nope. I assure you, no kidding. WP isn't the place to post insults. Not a free speech zone and all that. Posted on AN/I, FYI. Tyrenius 01:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course you're not, dear. deeceevoice 07:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

"African American" and "black" in Minstrel show

Hey, Deeceevoice. A user who may or may not be trolling is complaining on Talk:Minstrel show that we shouldn't use the term African American to describe people of African descent in America for that article. He argues that they could not own land and were therefore not "Americans". I find that pretty silly reasoning, but it did give me pause re. the correct terminology to use. In your opinion, what term is best for the article vis-a-vis enslaved blacks pre-Civil War, free blacks pre-Civil War, and free blacks post-Civil War? The sources used tend to mix and match "African American" and "black" with no apparant rhyme or reason, and I notice that the blackface article uses both terms. And apologies from this ignorant white guy. :) — BrianSmithson 11:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with being "ignorant"; we're all ignorant about at least something. (Besides, you seem a hell of a lot more knowledgeable of black subject matter than a lot of white folks on this website. Gee. That's not saying much is it? Well, you know what I mean.) I've responded on the article talk page. I haven't read the article, but I'm sure your work has improved it. Will take a look when I have more time, though. Peace. :) deeceevoice 16:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Just saying hello

Glad to see you are still putting up a fight.. Hope all is well with you! --Aika 22:00, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Deeceevoice I agree with you!

Millions of people believe that South Asians are distant members of African diasporas. I personally don't believe this, but it's a fascinating theory that should be given equal weight in the article. Zaph is trying to marginalize this view, but I feel more comfortable mentioning it in the article because it a provides a coherent theme that links all the grousp being discussed. Editingoprah 02:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, I don't have a problem with mentioning the African diaspora. That's why when I revisited the article for the first time in several months a few days ago I included the link to African diaspora in my comments on the talk page. It is a relevant, interesting notion -- but one that is not critical to the discussion; it is documentation of the application of the term to the populations in question, but not an explanation/justification. The peoples mentioned have been considered black, or have considered themselves black, before and beyond the postulations of Afrocentrist scholars or pan-Africanist ideologues. They have been considered black historically and referred to as such by explorers, casual observers, their countrymen, by colonizers, etc., and themselves. See my comments and the link provided for one example of such a mainstream application of the word black to a non-African ethnic group -- the Tamils of Sri Lanka. You will recall that you removed a photo of Sri Lankan children, incorrectly and rather uncivilly asserting that its inclusion "undermined" and made "absurd" the statements made in the article. deeceevoice 10:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

African American

I tried doing what I thought was some pretty basic stuff in African American recently and discovered (I guess I shouldn't be surprised) that I had stepped into a minefield. The first one who came in after me I had no compunctions about just reverting. Anyway, I'd appreciate if you would take a look and see if you disagree with the direction I was trying to take some of this; certainly I value your thoughts in this area enormously. - Jmabel | Talk 23:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, Wikipedia. No good deed goes unpunished. :p Will do -- but if it's really complicated, don't look for much from me until probably the middle of next week. Hope you and yours are well. Bless. :) deeceevoice 06:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

beauty

Yeah, it's lovely up here -- I wish we could spend more time here, but at the moment we need to be spending about 3/4 of our time in Las Vegas, which has its own charms, but not like this lovely land. I'm slowly realizing that I'm really meant to be a rural rather than an urban person.

You can keep an eye on our chunk of paradise here. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 14:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

• I've just been getting to know the desert in the last few years. For me it was a matter of learning to understand the subtlety of it. The big views in the Basin and Range world are just the indicators; the way the flora and fauna vary with every few hundred feet in elevation; the slopes and curves that the water shapes; everything is either alluvial fan or will be in a few hundred thousand years; the creatures brilliantly adapted to live in their particular niches...Yeah, Vegas is a blight. But it's an interesting blight. And we're just twenty minutes from open desert; we can turn our backs to the casinos and we're here. Kernville is kinda the exact opposite of Las Vegas; we're surrounded by beauty -- one has to travel an hour through a narrow winding canyon to get to anyplace remotely urban, and that's Bakersfield, which really isn't much to write home about unless you like country music. My wife was born and has spent most of her life in Kernville, and when I first came here I discovered a social structure I could slide right into. A highly educated social structure, too -- a lot of deliberate underachievers, people who choose to be underemployed so they can enjoy the benefits of the river and the mountain. (The Kern River, our back yard, is the primary watershed of Mt. Whitney, and is perhaps the top whitewater sports river in the country.) There's a lot to be said for small town life -- if you don't need the everyday stimulation of urban hubbub. It's an interesting tradeoff. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 14:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Re:Gandhi

Hi - I'm afraid you are persisting in repeatedly making edits that violate WP:NPOV, WP:POINT, WP:RS and WP:NOT. You are requested to stop and discuss the issue with other editors at Talk:Mahatma Gandhi. If you continue reverting, you may be blocked for disruptive editing. Thanks, Rama's arrow 15:59, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

(from article talk page)

The charges of racism are well known and completely valid. Don't quote wiki policy to me when you are clearly in violation of it. You oblitered accurate, relevant, adequately sourced information with a completely meaningless and dismissive (uncivil) edit note that in no way justified the edit. You have yet to offer any justification for removing the information. Why is it not relevant? And how is it "nonsense"? Finally, absolutely none of your nice, little links has any relevance whatsoever to the edits I've made. If anything, they apply to your behavior -- and not mine. Unless and until you can justify your deletion of the material, I will continue to insert it. deeceevoice 16:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Khalistan.com is a POV source. Please see WP:RS. Also I request you to see the talkpage archives here as I think this issue has been previously discussed numerous times. Rama's arrow 16:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah! A mere technicality. That's all you had to say, that the Khalitsan website is considered a POV source. Your unhelpful, disrespectful edit note gave no indication of the nature of your objection and -- again -- clearly is a violation of wiki policy. And that business about "disruption" is just bluster -- to use your word -- utter "nonsense." I'll be happy to provide the same information from a NPOV source, then, so you will have no credible objection -- because the historical record is clear: Gandhi was an anti-black bigot. deeceevoice 16:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Racists in Black People discussion

Dear Deeceevoice,

I am the anonymous user you encountered on the "Black People" article.

I have the impression that a lot of racists try to infiltrate that page. For instance "Whatdoyou" has quoted a racist wesbiste for some of his explanations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Whatdoyou

http://www.sitesled.com/members/racialreality/ethiopians.html

http://www.sitesled.com/members/racialreality/

Others are persistently quoting Michael Levin who is known to be a racist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Levin

Finally, I truly believe that you Americans (Black&White) are very influenced by the strong racism of you society. And therefore you have a tendency to split the world in white-black-yellow and brown.

But the world is much more complicated. And for instance, just because Mexicans might look brown, it doesn't mean that they have anything in common with "Brown" Indians, "Brown" Iraqis or "Brown" Afghans.

So you should be very careful not to take the reality of Harlem as the reality of the rest of the world("Put him in FUBU and set him down in Harlem in a Black Panther Party rally, and no one would bat an eye"=> It made me laugh! ;-) ). We still have to do a lot of work to unite Blacks against racism.

Greetings and please stay engaged! (another unsigned post)

I appreciate your sentiments about racism, but your cautionary note has landed with a thud. Whatever I've contributed to the article has little to do with my personal viewpoint. All of the peoples mentioned in the article have been considered black by various peoples around the globe, or who consider themselves black. Truth be told, the reality of much of Harlem (which today is being gentrified out of existence as a black community) is that many of the black folks there would have an extremely provincial notion of what "black" means. The fact is, the world of black folks is an international and multicultural/multi-ethnic one. It is the critics of the article who have displayed not only racism, but an unreasoning, deliberate obtuseness in their refusal to accept -- or a dismal ability to grasp -- the breadth and scope of the term. deeceevoice 20:06, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

=> Dear Deeceevoice, I think that "Black conscience" is very important in that topic. Because Prince Bandar is obviously of African Origin. But "Black conscience" is not strong in many Arabic countries, because other cultural things(Religion, Family, etc.) are much more important. Therefore I doubt that Prince Bandar will be considered as a member of the "Black People" Group in Saudi Arabia, as many Saudis probably don't know what that means(For them he is "A Prince"). While in countries where "Black conscience" is important, you will have Blacks from different origins considering themselves to belong to one group(Even Sri Lankans in the Britain, Germany, etc.). (Unsigned post.)

Your point has no point. I raised the matter of Bandar in talk because the writer (you?) claimed very few Arabs were mixed -- when that is patently false. And I provided the reference regarding the obviously "Negroid" presence in Libya. The centuries-long Arab trade in Africa, including its despicable trafficking in black human beings, has produced a population shot-through with black African-bloodlines. And before Arab hegemony in the region, there was black hegemony. Virtually the entirety of northern Egypt is comprised in predominant part of a mongrelized population of Semitic people (Arabs) and black Africans. And Bandar is but one example of many I cited because of his prominence. If someone like him, with his brown skin and nappy hair, can rise to a position of prominence in a culture known for its anti-black racism, then that should provide at least an inkling of just how common Africoid/Negroid blood is among Arabs as a whole.

"Blackness" as an individual or group identity may or may not be a function of "consciousness." After all, the British constantly during their colonial reign referred to Australian Aborigines, Indians and others of the subcontinent disdainfully as "blacks" and "kaffirs". The article is not exclusively about who self-identifies as "black"; it is also about people anywhere who have been called, are called/considered "black."

Finally, kindly do not post to my talk page again without identifying yourself. deeceevoice 18:08, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandal?

Please stop vandalising the black people article. It's finally starting to look good after months of chaos. Your recent edits have been impeding the process. Timelist 06:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, you are the vandal. You've repeatedly deleted text without justification. The lead of any article is meant to present the subject under discussion and summarize the information in the article. There is absolutely nothing "redundant" about the information provided. The article is not a dictionary entry; definitions do not suffice. deeceevoice 07:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks?

I am an African American currently residing outside of the States. I just wanted to write and say "Thanks DeeCee", for your work over at the Black Supremacist page. I surfed there by accident. I was shocked to find that Wikipedia has even chosen to include this article. It is far too long in view of the insignificance of so-called "Black Supremacy" when compared to the massive White Supremacist Movement which is once again taking the entire White World by storm. (Are you a Black Supremacist, if you are only trying to survive in a nation that overtly practices and tolerates Racist practices such a lynching or segregation?) Until I read our courageous comments, I was truly daunted by the sheer malevolence that appears to be at work in that article, especially the insidious denigrations of Marcus Garvey. So many considered him to be a hero for addressing Black suffering in the Post Slavery Occident. Yet, that article slanders him viciously, referring to him as an errand boy of the Klu Klux Klan and a friend of White Supremacists. I have not been able to find any truth in any of these statements, so I deleted them. So much of the material there appears to be merely conjectured or anecdotal designed to tell ugly tales about African people in general rather than focus on the purported subject at hand. Yet, on the White Supremacist page, there are no such juicy tidbits to further incite anger and outrage. There are no tales told period, just the bare bones concerning this virulent hate-inspired movement. In fact, much has been left out. The White Supremacist article could have included a number of recent and not so reccent events that would have turned any reader's stomach but the writer keeps it very cut and dry. Not so on the Black Supremaciy page where, the author goes out of his way to assasinate the character of any Black person who remotely expresses any racial pride or hope for his people. I guess, he is just two fingers from calling Martin Luther King a Black Supremacist, since he incited Black people to protest white brutality and segregation.

I want to complain to Wikipedia about the unhealthy tone in which the Black Supremacist page has been written. The assaults on Rappers and other musicians such as Lauren Hill is shocking. I have no doubt that the article is motived by racial hate. It is so apt that you have identified the problems as systemic. Wikipedia is a true menace in the sense that people of African descent are often assaulted but may lack the resources, time or orientations necessary to defend themselves against those who use Wikipedia to commit what amounts to racial assault. Refutations are highly resented and a general ambiance of White supremacist aggression reigns on many pages. I haven't read all that you've written, I imagine that you spend a lot of time, fighting the good fight. Again thanks. I hope you get this message.Sincerely Vani --VaniNY 20:17, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for stopping by and taking the time to register your comments.

CoYep is an edit warrior with a history of following me around the site. He's inserted deliberately slanted information into the article and used legitimate information in blatantly misleading ways.

I've taken another quick look/cut at the article and reorganized it into something more coherent and excised the most objectionable material I've referred to above. It probably deserves another look. It would be helpful if you would take a look and make any fixes or changes you deem appropriate. And keep an eye on it. No doubt, CoYep will be back to twist/contort the article again. deeceevoice 07:14, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank DeeCee

Thank you for the warm words. I believe that I have already expressed that I'm happy that you have been available to work so hard on this site. I have only been at it a few days, and already I have had enough. I am sorry that we have had cross words, but, even though it may reoccur, it means nothing. Your views nearly mirror my own (concerning the subject at hand) and that is really gratifying. It disturbs me that I may not have the time to keep up with this nutty site. As my mother used to say "No rest for the weary". Peace to you too. VaniNY

African American

Thanks for your work on this. I'll try to get a look at it again today. It's often a mess, and there simply aren't enough people watching it. Apparently, we have a few "contributors" who think the title of the page is The Negro Problem. Then again, I guess the title of much of the talk page could be The Clueless White Boy Problem.

Same thing happens to Roma people. On Jew, it's a little better, because there seems to be more of a "diligence squad" watching it through an RSS feed. I tend to hit things as they come up on my watchlist, and that means I'm usually lagging by a few days, so if a page is churning, I rarely see it unless someone calls my attention. Still, it's amazing the vandalism I sometimes find that has been sitting for days. - Jmabel | Talk 17:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

User notice: temporary 3RR block

Regarding reversions[2] made on October 17 2006 to Great Sphinx of Giza

You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three-revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future.

The duration of the block is 24 hours. William M. Connolley 18:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Unblock request

I e-mailed the admin who blocked me to get the link to the documentation supporting the action, stating I didn't believe I violated the 3RR. He responded: "Sadly, an all too common response. See WP:AN3 -W}}"

I checked the information.[3] It does not support the 3RR. I responded with a follow-up e-mail:

"Yep. It probably IS a common response. However, did you really read the fourth edit?"

"First, the wording is changed in the second edit, because I realized that someone had played with the Schoch quote to make Schoch say something he may not have said. I changed it in the second edit."

"Most importantly, one of the main points of contention with this segment of the article was the placement of this information. I deleted the "Ethnicity" subhead, deleted the ancillary quotations from the writers (DeVolney, DuBois, etc.) and, I thought, worked the information in very effectively to a previous paragraph where it fit seamlessly regarding the controversy about Khafre. Domingo's observations provide another example of a dissenting opinion regarding the Sphinx's identity. The result is quite different." (edited for clarity)

"I think you're in error, and I request that the block be reversed."

I don't think the admin even bothered to read my fourth entry. It's obvious it's in a completely different location, and the resultant language is quite different.

I find the fact that I have been blocked ironic. User:Stbalbach repeatedly reverted my edits without explaining why and using what I consider uncivil language. And he ended his third block with the following edit note, a blatant and open invitation for people to engage in tag-team edit warring: "There is no consensus for this - my 3rd revert of the day so someone else can take it from here." So much for following wiki procedure. deeceevoice 13:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Response: bulls***. deeceevoice 20:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

"Just take a break...."

Just take a break from the black people article for a while. Your edits aren't helping. Kobrakid 21:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you take a break? I think my edits, which have not only added information, but corrected numerous typos and capitalization errors, have been an improvement. What's more, IMO, my edits have been objective, balanced and informative. In many cases, my edits aren't even controversial -- but they've been reverted -- wholesale -- anyway. Now, that's not helping; that's simply edit warring. And you're one of the main culprits in that regard. You've got some nerve coming to my page and telling me to "take a break." deeceevoice 21:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Black people

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert a single page more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you.SecurID 05:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Another unjust block

I've blocked you for 24 hours so you can calm down a bit. Remember WP:CIVIL. — Matt Crypto 11:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I honestly couldn't care less about your block. I will continue to speak my mind as long as mind-sets such as those exhibited at Black people continue to censor/expunge, wholesale, legitimate edits by engaging in tag-team edit warring. The fact that you chose to block me and not take action against others speaks volumes -- and is just another example of the tacky manner in which you choose to exercise your authority. deeceevoice 17:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Continuing to "speak your mind" in an uncivil matter will lead to further and longer blocks. Whether you care about it or not is irrelevant. — Matt Crypto 17:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

And as far as I'm concerned, your continuing to block me unjustly is just as irrelevant. It means nothing to me personally. Your blocks are just classic, textbook examples of what is foul about this website. deeceevoice 17:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The blocks aren't for your benefit, Deeceevoice, so whether it means anything to you personally is not really something I'm interested in. As Hoary points out, you're quite capable of arguing your case civilly. — Matt Crypto 18:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Matt, Deecee certainly is capable of doing this. However, it seems to have little or no effect. She's forced to deal with the edits of a number of people. No doubt some of these rationally disagree; others obviously don't argue against or even read civil, rational arguments that don't happen to jibe with their own prejudices, instead dismissing these as "politically correct propoganda" (sic), etc. What should an editor do if her civil, rational arguments are dismissed without consideration? Uncivil eruptions don't seem the best solution. She could start an RfC, I suppose; but that rigmarole (searching for diffs, writing them up, etc etc) looks so time-consuming that I'd never want to start one myself, and I don't suppose my unenthusiasm is unusual. Or again she could just acquiesce and watch the entire article (and all its commercial scrapes) become the playground of earnest students of people like D'Souza, not to mention the unthinking followers of talk-radio blowhards. -- Hoary 03:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The issue is not just my block, but the abject (and repeated) failure on the part of Crypto and others of his ilk to deal with (or even acknowledge) the violations of others involved in the same matters in which I am involved. The edit warrior in this case clearly and blatantly incited others to essentially take over where he left off -- to engage in tag-team edit warring. And while the wiki definition clearly states that one can be cited for a 3RR violation for having violated even the spirit, and not necessarily the letter (four reverts), of the rule, no action was taken against him. Typical, classic Crypto. And that is why I (and others) hold him and the so-called wiki process in such contempt. deeceevoice 04:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Deecee. Welcome back after the 24 hour "break". I'm an admin and maybe that's because, or that's why, I'm a stuck-up jerk, but I view the eruption that won you the break as an understandable response to other editors' refusal to consider the explanations that you'd very civilly written the previous day.

I'm appalled by the stupidity and ignorance that often passes hereabouts as another, valid "point of view" on issues somehow involving skin color. I don't have much time, effort or inclination to flush this stuff away, but now and again I do try (recent example). I really hope you continue to stick around because you do much more of it than I do, and I'd prefer that the WP coverage of these issues weren't too horrible. All the best -- Hoary 15:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I didn't even notice the block until it was over -- or nearly over. (I didn't try to edit, so I don't know.) :p deeceevoice 17:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, yeah. Followed the link re AAVE. Your ongoing efforts are appreciated. deeceevoice 07:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Not at all, Deecee: my efforts are minor and sporadic. All the best with your work; stay cool. -- Hoary 11:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

a few criticisms

First off, I want to say I admire your devotion to your cause, and your voracious pursuit of knowledge on subjects that are important to you. However, I have the following questions, which are somewhat criticizing, but not meant to rant at you:

1. You present cool as an african aesthetic, and give the example of Miles Davis as the icon of cool. If he is the icon of cool-- a non-Western idea/invention/cultural trait, then why does he drive a Mazeradi that has costed him probably a million dollars? Is this not a huge investment of capital being put into a Western "synthetic" version of the cool you refer to?
2. You have at one point presented a dichotomy of European vs African, wherein the Africans "get low" with dances and being down to earth and the europeans "get high" on ballet classical music, etc. How would you respond to the claim that this dichotomy is contradicted by the fact that Europeans often found their inspiration in getting low, and africans in reaching for the heavens, before the two cultures came into contact.
3. One of your most edited pages in black supremacy. Do you believe in black supremacy?
4. You've admitted that you're prejudiced at one point because of bad experiences with racism. How does this effect your editing?

--Winatchess

I'm busy. Comments and inquiries by registered users are more likely to receive a response/faster response. deeceevoice 12:27, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Whenever you have a chance would be great. Secondly, I was wondering why you think that art with black people in it proves any historical fact about egypt. They drew whites and arabs then too. (Mix-raced society). Reply whenever you're not busy --Winatchess

A Response

*sigh* Frankly, I find responding to such flat-footed inquiries as yours tedious and annoying. I'm not here to provide answers to queries from the obviously not well-read (on a particular subject), yet opinionated, as a substitute for knowledge resulting from serious inquiry and scholarship born of interest rather than curiosity. I will say what I have to say here this time and no more.

• No doubt about it. Cool has been commodified and commercialized. It's changed over the centuries and become disconnected from its spiritual roots. That's what happens with cultural fragmentation and appropriation. Like much of African-American culture, it's been pimped and distorted/appropriated mercilessly by Western culture. Regardless, Miles Davis was and remains an icon of cool -- for any number of reasons. Google him, research him and find out why.
• The example of the "get down" posture in African culture is well known and widely documented. The fact that Africans brought this aesthetic with them to the New World is also well known and widely documented. My statement(s?)/contentions in this regard are not original research. They are widely disseminated throughout the literature. It might help if you did some reading/research.
• It doesn't matter whether I do or do not believe in black supremacy. And, frankly, it's none of your business. The information I've provided on the subject is accurate.
• I've "admitted" being "prejudice[d]? I don't know what you're referring to. Have I been formed in part by my experiences? Yes. Do I consider myself scarred or deformed somehow as a result of my experiences with racism? Not that it's any of your business, but no. I'm whole, healthy and at peace; I know who I am, who my people are and where I come from. My experience and knowledge base are those of an African-American, educated by mainstream American society, but also by generations of survivors of a black (and brown, as my ancestors are also Native American) holocaust, who have endured and persevered and thrived despite the odds. By natural circumstances, instinct, inclination and conscious choice, I am steeped in my culture and deeply aware and somewhat knowledgeable of my roots in Mother Africa. As such, I am multicultural and with a far broader knowledge base in certain subject matter than the average mainstream-educated, and often marginally literate, often intellectually lazy, American of any color. Just as the average white is, IMO, conditioned by racism, assumptions of white superiority/supremacy and white privilege, I have been influenced by the heritage of struggle, overcoming, humanity and spirituality of my people.
• When I write, I bring information, knowledge and insight to bear on the subjects I take on. I am objective.
• I've already addressed the subject of ancient dynastic Egypt. It was, first and foremost an African civilization, which had its roots to the South. The Oromo of Abyssinia, the Khoisan, Nuba, and other Nilotic peoples, as well as Equatorial Africans comprised ancient Egypt. The founders of Egypt traced their origins to Punt, located in Eritrea or Sudan -- lands of black, African peoples. There are no whites, or Arabs, or Semites indigenous to Africa (unless one counts some of the Maghreb Berbers on the other side of the continent). There are no Arabs indigenous to East Africa at all; they came from the East. The myth of a Semitic or Arab ancient Egypt is just that -- a myth. Did other populations -- Semites/Arabs/Jews and Asiatic blacks -- at some point live, work, and some even rule in dynastic Egypt? Without a doubt. But ancient dynastic Egypt began and remained a principally black civilization throughout the millennia. And not only is that my contention, it is supported by ample archaeological evidence and propounded by historians more learned than you or I.
• You obviously have a different opinion, and you're welcome to it. But I frankly don't care what you believe. Based on the way your questions have been phrased, I seriously doubt your opinions are learned ones or informed by any serious scholarly inquiry -- and that's tragic. But, hey, that's on you --isn't it? Again, the voluminous information I have brought to related articles (which likely has been mostly expunged at this point, because that's the nature of Wikipedia) is just that, factual information. That others with differing viewpoints on such matters obviously feel compelled to delete such factual, well-documented material wholesale (often without even reading it), IMO, is very telling -- and typical of the way mindless pap and patent falsehoods are substituted for true knowledge in the service of abysmal ignorance, white supremacy and the perservation of the Great Lie.
• Save your fingers. I'll not read your response. You've brought absolutely nothing to this discussion in your questions. Nothing personal, but I'm bored with you and the entire project. I suggest you address future questions elsewhere. Or, better yet, do some serious reading and open your mind. deeceevoice December 16, 2006

Just a note

Just so you know- I'm no admin, just a concerned outsider. :) johnpseudo 15:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep, I had you confused with someone else and realized it only after I'd posted the note. :) deeceevoice 18:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The "black people" article...

...strikes me as no longer awful. It is still not a great article, but I think it is no longer a serious embarrassment. You might want to look in on it some time and see if you can suggest some tweaks, or some references worth people following up. - Jmabel | Talk 04:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't have the inclination or the patience at the moment. I don't know when, if ever, I'll return to the article. User:deeceevoice 13:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Stormfront material

You are right about that material, it was racist, it was my mistake to have restored it without reading it more carefully. Wanted to admit my mistake on that single edit and clear up any misunderstanding that it was made intentionally. I did not defend it after you removed it the second time and I agree it should be removed. -- Stbalbach 18:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's the way you roll, isn't it? Wholesale deletion/reversion without bothering to read anything, exhorting others to do the same. Please, don't come here pretending to be acting in good faith. deeceevoice 09:25, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

Darwinek wishes you a Merry Christmas!

Hi DeeCee! I just want to say Merry Christmas and Kwanzaa to you! Have a nice holiday time. - Darwinek 19:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Get down

When you create stub articles such as Get down, please try to find the best specific stub tag(s) on the page WP:STUBS. This saves other editors work in categorizing the page, and makes it easier for editors with experise in the subject to find pages that need work. Thanks, — Swpb ^{talk contribs} 18:25, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not very interested in the project at the moment, so whatever I do I do what I have the tolerance/patience for. I don't have the patience for such matters such as stub categories, so I'm afraid you'll have to accept what I have to offer and no more. Not the best response, I'm sorry to say, but it's my response. deeceevoice 21:12, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

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Yawn. dee. 01/02/07

Thank you

Hi,

Thank you for your recent postings on Dravidian people. It has been frustrating with the number of people modifying the info on that page. Some have been turning it into a propganda page to make it look like we do not exist. Yes, we are related to the people of East Africa and the aboriginals of Australia. One can see that not only in our features, but in some of our martial arts, music, and dance.

Wiki Raja 06:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

It's funny, we were both sending each other a message at the same time without knowing. Wiki Raja 06:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The U.S.Wiki Raja 06:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Vanakkam and Greetings,

I see that the debate is getting pretty hot on Talk:Dravidian people. Asian2Duracell has been harassing a few people showing intolerance towards other people's ethnic backgrounds and vandalizing the talk pages. He is also in the habit of posting messages without signging them, like as though we are not going to know who it is. Today, he posted a very inapporiate message on my User talk:Wiki Raja page. Furthermore, I sense some sockpuppetry going on with this user, since his tone of language sounds almost the same as ARYAN818, who has been reported by none other than (me). ARYAN818's previous history of harassing otherusers, warnings, and blockings because of his name alone is the reason why he is being removed from Wikipedia by next week.

It seems that one of the few that is making noise here is Asian2Duracell. We must act accordingly and report this user at once to administration. I cannot believe the kind of language he is using here and getting away with it. Lastly, I have come up with an idea to start a WikiProject Dravidian Civilizations to counter these inappropriate activities and to promote the different Dravidian cultures, not only in India, but in Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Maldives, and Bangladesh. So far, the majority of articles relating to Dravidians are good to go. It seems that it is mainly the Dravidian people site which we need to tackle. So, I would like you to be on the WikiProject Dravidian Civilizations team. This group is open to anybody and everybody who is interested in participating. As you will notice Dravidians are not locked into on country, but are spread across borders too.

Anyways, here is the link: User:Wiki Raja/WikiProject Dravidian Civilizations

Take care.

Wiki Raja 00:04, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

If this guy hasn't been reported already for violating the 3RR on both Tamil people and Dravidian people, then he should be. It's amazing that, given his conduct, he actually called in someone else for assistance. (I'm not sure that person is an admin, though. They certainly don't appear to be acting, in their comments on Talk: Dravidian people with any degree of equanimity. Unfortunately, the next few days for me will be incredibly hectic, so you probably won't see much more of me 'til next week.

And, yes. I'll take you up on your invitation. Unsatisfied with his shenanigans at Dravidian people, this guy's taken to vandalizing the Tamil article, as well. If he's not put in check, he'll likely continue his activities to other related projects.

With regard to sock puppetry, there's no doubt in my mind this guy has other tags under which he edits on the project. deeceevoice 11:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I note that Asian2duracell has been reported for 3RR violation[4] at Tamil people. If you have a moment, you might wish to do the same for his antics at Dravidian people. Back-to-back blocks might discourage him from further such behavior. deeceevoice 13:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

haha ur talking about me, oh what an honour. I'm sorry I didnt signed the post, WikiRaja. It was ofcourse me. But that ARYAN818 guy is definitley not me. Hey Guys, or better deeceevoice, I think ur the last guy who should talk about "get blocked". (deleted message to another user.)Asian2duracell 00:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC) :-)

A2d, if you have a message for another user, I suggest you take it to their page. There is no reason to suspect that WR -- or any other user (other than me) -- would check my discussion page for messages intended for them. Yours here to WR has been deleted. deeceevoice 12:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

hey

Whats up? Two things, one related to Wikipedia and one just a general question.

1.Philip Emeagwali's article seems completely POV against him (I have my guesses why...). Even though he is kind of bullshittin' about being the father of the internet, I think it's some pretty awful treatment of him that you could easily counterbalance. 2. Just a general question. Does it piss you off that "Afrocentric" rappers like Nas have ignorant lyrics like:

Egypt was the place that Alexander the Great went

He was a'shocked at the mountains with black faces

Shot up they nose to impose what basically

Still goes on today, you see?

Or is your view of ignorance limited only to eurocentric prejudice? Anyways, peace, --Urthogie 01:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

My comments about that article were registered a very long time ago. I'm done with it. Don't come to my user page asking stupid and deliberately insulting/provocative questions about my view of "ignorance" or anything else. deeceevoice 12:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Tread lightly, Urthogie. El_C 13:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

You'd do well to heed your own advice. Don't come up in my space with smart-ass questions and expect me to play nice. deeceevoice 15:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC) Oops! deeceevoice 18:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

EL C does not = Urthogie.--Urthogie 16:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

You ain't nevvuh lied about that! Sorry, El C. I'm crunching deadlines and didn't read very carefully. Happy New Year, bwoi! :D deeceevoice 16:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

See, everyone makes mistakes! --Urthogie 03:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

And your record is a constant, never-ending string of them. You're an annoyance. Get lost. deeceevoice 12:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Invitation to join the Gospel Music Wikiproject

I noticed your earlier work on the Take 6 article. I would like to invite you to join the new Gospel Music Wikiproject.
Absolon S. Kent 22:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Great work!

I thought the changes you made to Black people were great. Get ready for a fight, though. There are some people here who take that guy seriously (!) Try to stay calm and cite a lot sources. I'll be around if you need any help.-- futurebird 00:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Black supremacy

We need to talk about the text you removed. Another user put it back, so I removed it again, but we need to hash this out. It's turning in to an edit war. Please see the talk page. futurebird 20:59, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Our communications are crossing. I just commented there. deeceevoice 21:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Black People

Although I have been banned from contributing, I have still been able to spread the word and it looks like it worked as I expected. The cat is already out of the bag and there is no way the Eurocentric view will ever remain in control of that article again. I am glad to see you've been sticking up for the best way to contribute to the Black People article. - Zaphnathpaaneah. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.60.55.162 (talk) 23:40, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

Black supremacy

deecee, don't delete the stuff on Black supremacy again. You see there is a rule that you should not revert any edit more than three times. Since what we've tried so far isn't working we might need some mediation for this... or if you know anyone who can help make a case on the talk page give them a call.

I just wanted to warn you so you don't get banned from editing. This whole thing is beyond annoying. If you ever need anything just let me know, Hit my talk page or email (me @ futurebird dot com )futurebird 05:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, but I'm aware of the 3RR, and I haven't violated it. If you'd like to call in someone to mediate, that's fine with me. deeceevoice 05:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Race and intelligence

I'd love to know your thoughts on this new outline I've proposed for this highly problematic page. Any ideas or feedback? Thanks! futurebird 20:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

• 0 Intro

• 1 History

1.1 Race

1.2 Intelligence testing

1.3 Origin of the idea of intelligence as a function of race

• 2 Contemporary questions

2.1 Race

2.1.1 Genetic hypothesis

2.1.2 Validity of "race"

2.2 Intelligence testing

2.2.1 The psychometric approach

2.2.2 Multiple forms of intelligence

2.2.3 Cultural variation

2.2.4 Developmental progressions

2.3 Average gaps among races

2.4 Explanations

2.4.1 Environmental factors

2.4.1.1 Test bias

2.4.1.2 Characteristics of tests

2.4.1.3 Socioeconomic factors

2.4.1.4 Culture factors

2.4.1.5 Public debate and policy implications

2.4.2 Genetic factors/Groups and intelligence

2.4.3 Intelligence as a function of race, contemporary views

2.4.3.1 Significance of group IQ differences

2.4.3.2 Public debate and policy implications

Get Down

I can't believe these two users think it's a "neologism." Maybe to them it seems that way. I never bought in to the complaints of the whole "systematic destruction of African culture" crowd. But, this is starting to make me change my mind, wow.... Three sources and a picture and it's still a "questionable neologism" I guess I need to get a certificate from the government certifying this word as legitimate and present my freedom papers too. Holy cat!futurebird 12:02, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

R & I "new intro"

Talk:Race and intelligence/new intro feb 07 I've written a new intro, I'd love your feedback-- the talk page over there has been quiet since I posted it. I'm worried! futurebird 01:07, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

No time for the next several days, but I'll get around to it. I won't be around much for probably a week or so. Deadlines! Good to see you're hanging in. You're a real asset to the project -- whether people know it or not. Peace. deeceevoice 19:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: Get Down AfD

Hehe, no problem. I like to cut out what doesn't deserve to be here, but that article clearly does. Best to you, Icemuon 18:48, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Ancient African Civilizations

If you look at the page civilization you'll see that there is not much listed there from Africa. (When I first looked at it Egypt was listed under "Eurasian" civilizations, so I created a section for "North Africa" and put it there!) I'd like to add some African civilizations, but being a 'math person' with scant knowledge of history I don't know where to start. What are the greatest BC African civilizations? Any suggestions? I might just work on adding more information on those civilizations' pages before adding them to the civilizations page. There was an awful lot of debate about even including the Olmec in the list, so I want this to be solid and well-sourced. I thought you might be able to help since you seem quite knowledgeable about African history. Thanks! futurebird 18:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I would change "North Africa" to "Nile Valley." "North Africa" to lots of people means Arabs, and they think of the Maghreb -- Morocco, Tunisia, etc. (Part of the way white folks have played with words to wipe out black history.) Nile Valley civilizations would include pre-dynastic Egypt as well and the Kush/Meroitic cultures. And then there's Abyssinia and its influence on Egypt. Nok culture/Ile-Ife, Timbuktu in present-day Mali, Songhay, Benin, Ashanti, Kanem-Bornu -- well, some of these are medieval, now that I think about it. But, yes. Another that came to my mind (before I completely read your post) was the Olmec civilization, as well. See the article Australoid, which addresses an ancient, black presence in the Americas and provides links. The civilizations of the Levant also were black (which is one of the reasons Arabs look the way they do; all that African blood didn't come from the slave trade). Martin Bernal, Runoko Rashidi, Chancellor Williams and others all have argued there was a substantial and significant black presence in the classical world. Furthermore, while some would argue some of the civilizations of these civilizations were not black per se, there is considerable evidence that they were heavily influenced by ancient Egypt, and African civilizations to the south; indeed, dynastic Egypt originated with black peoples to the South. Upper and Lower Egypt were unified by Menes/Narmer, who came from the South. In addition to being referred to as the Scorpion king, he also was known as "King Catfish." (You can't tell me dat bwoi wasn't black! :p) And then there is the ancient black presence in Asia. There's ample documentation for that, too. deeceevoice 19:28, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I knew you were the right person to ask about this! futurebird 14:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Wooly hair syndrome

Is this real? It looks suspect to me. futurebird 14:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it looked suspect to me, too -- so I googled it (something you should have done). It's legit. I corrected the spelling of "woolly," noted a few places where citations were necessary, made a few copyedits -- and moved the article to a properly spelled heading. I don't mind your messages and communications about stuff on the site; I welcome your comments. But, please, use your search engine! deeceevoice 16:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

For the record I did google it and I found a lot of silly things that claimed to be science. I still find it suspect... take a look at this: [5]

Not only is African hair wiry, it is also frequently coarse. So why is this?

African hair produces plenty of protective oils, called sebum. In fact, African hair actually produces more oils than Caucasian and Asian hair. However, due to the tight curls, the oil fails to spread evenly along the hair fiber.

Without lubrication, the fibers become very dry. This causes the brittle strands to flake and roughen, resulting in hair that is coarse to the touch. Very curly hair from all ethnic groups often lacks the silky smoothness of straight hair. This may due to the same reason, but to a lesser extent.

The brittleness of African hair adds to the illusion that it cannot be grown long. The tight curls create stresses at each turn in the hair fiber. The hair strands become weak and fragile, making them prone to breakage. As a result, tightly coiled hair tends to stay quite short.

Ummmm... maybe some of this is true, but it just sounds like she's making all of this up to me. I mean, with traditional African hair styles hair is quite soft and can grow quite long... at least as far as I know... but, I'm no expert. Am I paranoid? Maybe. I think it comes from trying to edit that race and intelligence article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Futurebird (talk • contribs) 00:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC).

The terms "coarse" and "fine" in the context of human hair refer to the thickness of the hair shaft. Coarseness has absolutely nothing to do with the way hair feels to the touch. Straight, fine hair can be wiry; black, coarse hair can be as soft as wool. And of course black hair grows long! It's all about how it's groomed. I mean if we didn't oil, braid and twist our hair, it probably would break. But -- news flash -- we do groom our hair. Finally, I don't know that business about black hair producing more oil. White folks got some oily hair (which is why they have to wash it so frequently)! Furthermore, it's the flattened, elliptical shape of the hair shaft that gives black hair reduced tensile strength. I don'to think it has anything to do with oil (or the lack thereof), given that we oil our hair. The editor is partially correct on some points. On others, looks like they pullin' it out they a**. Peace & hair grease! :p deeceevoice 11:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

And I know what you're saying when you say you read a lot of stuff that sounds like pseudo-science. Yeah. Like white archaeologists speculating that Akenathen had Marfan's syndrome, which is why he had elongated limbs. (Gee, could it have been that he was a normal, healthy, Nilotic blackman?) Or that King Tut had a genetic disorder which is why his head was so freakin' long. (Gee, could it have been that he was a normal, healthy, black kid with a peanut head?) Or, that the Queen of Punt on that famous wall mural had lipodystrophy? Or, even more ridiculous, that she had some made-up "Queen of Punt" syndrome that hadn't/hasn't been recorded before or since in human history. (Gee, could it simply have been that she was an obese Khoisan woman? I mean look at dat Bantu booty of hers. Lipodystrophy is characterized by wasting of the buttocks. Gimme a break!) Any kind of stupid sh*t to try to rob us of our history. deeceevoice 17:03, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: the failed Get down AfD[6] -- a sore loser?

The "Enough is enough" comment (below) was posted after this exchange onUser:Thomas.macmillan's talk page about his failed attempt to have the article deleted -- without discussing it with anyone beforehand.

Since the debate seems to be doing rather well, despite its good-faith AfD nomination, I think I shall steer clear of the discussion without offering an opinion, in order to not disrupt the flow of dialogue. Parts of the debate are slightly tenderer than your average. Bobo. 21:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

(Bobo192 was responding to MacMillan's request that he take a look at his AfD.[7] -- and, as you can see, he declined. I responded to Bobo's comment -- something which happens all the time on talk pages. It's called talk/discussion.)

Au contraire. The AfD, IMO, was not in good faith. This guy made no attempt at all to discuss his concerns about the subject matter before initiating it; the talk page is completely empty. That is not acting in good faith. His was a wasted effort -- and he took up a lot of other people's time unnecessarily. The article is a stub (which I started because there are a lot of inconsequential "get down" songs with separate articles -- but absolutely no explanation of the African cultural phenomenon that gave rise to the term, or to the phenomenon in African-American and American popular culture) -- anywhere. MacMillan jumped on the piece without consulting anyone and tried to obliterate it based solely on his ignorance of the subject. Not acceptable! deeceevoice 12:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Let me rephrase that. MacMillan's AfD may have been initiated in good faith, but the precipitous, unilateral manner in which he went about it raises doubts in that regard. deeceevoice 13:02, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Enough is enough

Please stop badgering me over Get down. Every editor has a right to do what they believe is best for the encyclopedia and I certainly did not nominate it with "bad faith". However, I will stop responding to every and all comments from you on this matter here forth because the situation is closed and you do not need to keep repeating your point, as have you done on several talk pages, the Get down AfD and even my talk page, which your last entry will be deleted from because of its pointless addition and the fact that it is not even directed towards me. In conclusion, please refrain responding to this and stop being a dick.--Thomas.macmillan 15:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Such hyperbole and pettiness! Not quite true, TM. And, furthermore, unlike you, I didn't approach anyone and ask them to weigh in on the topic. You didn't do what you should have done and got soundly spanked for it. What? Your ego bruised? Not my problem. Don't compound your inappropriate behavior by being a schmuck/ass and a sore loser. Kindly refrain from leaving messages on my talk page in the future. I'll simply delete them -- unread. *x* See ya around the project. :)deeceevoice 15:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Touchy, touchy! What's that thing that black folks say? "Don't start nun, won't b nun." Yeah. Dat. deeceevoice 15:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, this is precious!

Just found this on the talk page of User:Grutness. Not content to come here and tell me to "stop being a dick," MacMillan (this guy's a trip w/o a suitcase) has the gall to complain to an admin that I and others are "harassing" and "badgering" him. And -- get this -- that I have exercised "very bad faith." lol:

Hello there Grutness,

Recently, I nominated an article for deletion which I believed was a neologism. After vigorous debate on the topic and improvements to the article, I withdrew the nomination. However, one user, the creator of the article, continues to badger me about the nomination. He and another user have exercised very bad faith, comparing me to a colonizer and writing on my talk page many times after I withdrew the nomination saying that I am a "sore loser" among many other things. I reverted the discussion on my talk page because of how utterly pointless it is, but read User talk:Deeceevoice if you want to see. The AfD name was Get down, and you can read the AfD discussion here. I tried to be polite with the user and have a reasonable discussion, but I saw this was not possible. I then asked for him to refrain from commenting on the situation anymore, which he replied with 4 posts and an addendum. Your help would be much appreaciated.--Thomas.macmillan 16:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The admin doesn't get involved, so MacMillan replies.

Thank you for the reply. I have decided to just unwatch the page and the users involved and ignore any comments left elsewhere. It is not worth the hassle of getting back into it. Thank you for the referral and, as always, keep up the good work!--Thomas.macmillan 06:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Good thing, TM. I notice your exaggeration/misrepresentation about the number of posts I made to your page. I also note you didn't mention your "stop being a dick" comment. What? You thought it was somehow not relevant? Had you gone to the Administrators' notice board, I'd simply have thrown your own words right back atcha. Don't start nun, won't b nun. Words to live by. And if you're going to invite someone in, you'd better make sure your house is in order first. deeceevoice 18:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Get down

No problem. It was the right thing to do, IMNSHO. Jerry lavoie 16:35, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Filing a complaint against Asian2duracell

I am sending you this message in regards to a report I am filing against Asian2duracell to the Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. He has been found guilty of racial intollerance, name calling, trolling, sock puppetry, and vandalism. All other methods of conflict resolution have been tried and failed. Please let me know that you are aware of this request and if you would like to participate in this. Regards. Wiki Raja 01:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely. I'll weigh in on is incivility and edit warring. deeceevoice 02:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

African-American template

I agree the flag makes more sense. Thanks for helping to keep an eye on this. Have you signed up for WP:AFRO ? futurebird 17:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. I just did. :) deeceevoice 19:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Your Userpage

Hi. Can I suggest you make your userpage pic a bit smaller? It's very big just, and slightly annoying to have to scroll down to see most of the page comment. If you choose not to do so, please don't bother yourself to reply to this message.martianlostinspace 18:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm in favor of leaving the picture as large as it is. I've never seen it like that on any other page and believe it adds character. Plus it's as perfectly "in your face" as the user it belongs to. I don't mind scrolling down and neither should you. As a recommendation, why not inform the uninformed to stop making unnecessary posts on the talk page. That cuts down on scrolling too.

--Docjay8406 01:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

p.s. Na na na na na :p

I wasn't even going to respond to martianlostinspace, though I took no offense at his/her request. You, Docjay, get a gold star. You get it. *wink* Peace 2 both of you. deeceevoice 07:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Sheila Jackson Lee

I fixed your cut and paste move of Sheila Jackson Lee. As you'd left it the entire editing history of the article would have been lost. It was an easy fix, but try to avoid "cut and paste" moves in the future. -Will Beback · † · 19:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Yep, I know. Had intended to deal with this when I had more time, so thanks for doing so. It was necessitated by a typo error/double post that wouldn't allow me to simply move the page. deeceevoice 07:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Another editor recently moved the article back to the hyphenated version. I did some research and presented what I found, but I really don't have a preference, or even a clear appreciation for which is more correct. Would you mind giving your viewpoint on the talk page? Cheers, -Will Beback · † · 07:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I recently called Lee's office about the divestment legislation before the Virginia Assembly. (Since she's an AKA, I wanted her to send an e-mail to the Greek-letter organizations on the campus of Virginia Union, requesting their involvement in helping to get the legislation over the hump in the house of delegates.) Her legislative aide told me her name is not hyphenated, even though the web says otherwise. deeceevoice 08:03, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

If you care about the issue then please add your comments to the talk page. -Will Beback · † · 20:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I know, thanks. But in the scheme of things -- really -- who cares? deeceevoice 17:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Paper Bag Test

Hi deeceevoice. I was wondering if the PBT or ideas of division among African Americans based on lightness of skin color should be a separate article. Or is that sufficiently covered elsewhere? I'm checking wiki pages to see what i can add, and i was wondering if you thought such an addition would be helpful. Elefuntboy 18:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Jeeze. I hardly think it merits an article of its own! Maybe a redirect to another article where it's mentioned. Don't know where. But it's definitely not worthy of a separate entry. It would seem it could be covered under, say, an article on self-loathing (maybe titled "self hatred" here?), or something about skin-color bias or something.... deeceevoice 23:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I wrote the paper bag article, by the way (FYI.) Is there an article on "ideas of division among African Americans based on lightness of skin color"??? I agree that could be covered under "internalized racism" <-- I wonder what's there? futurebird 23:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Someone did a redirect to Colorism. You might want to check it out to see if your text is covered or has been incorporated into that article. "Colorism" needs help. See my edit note. deeceevoice 00:05, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, now I get it. Paper Bag Party is the stub I made a year ago or so... I changed the redirect-- do you think it should be merged? futurebird 00:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. deeceevoice 01:11, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Excellent work on the PBP article, futurebird! I hadn't seen it. I think that it should also be under internalized racism perhaps, cuz that is one sad article. Elefuntboy 20:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

This Banjo nonsense...

... is getting a little silly. How about an RFC? Do you think that could settle the question? futurebird 23:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. I'm trying to see the last poster's point. I added in what I saw were appropriate, related articles in the AA template box that were missing. We'll see how the editor responds now. deeceevoice 23:52, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Feedback

I'd love to have your feedback on these proposed changes:

1. Change Media section- change to match sub-article
2. Change Utility of research- change to match sub-article
3. Possible revision of text about race as a proxy-I've proposed two revisions here, if they don't work... why?
4. New Intro Sentence

futurebird 19:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Dang, girl! Don't you do anything besides Wikipedia? I'm busy working on Sudan divestment right now -- and I've got deadlines. Will take a look when I have time, probably sometime next week. Peace. deeceevoice 01:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks futurebird 00:24, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

OH MY GOD

Deecee, I'm gonna lose it any second now. I start adding info about how the Irish were once not considered white and this guy counters with some IQ figures that I guess he intends to mean that it is true that the Irish are just a bunch of dumb paddies. I don't even know where to start criticizing this. I'm just very ANGRY. I'm going to change my username to ANGRYbird... AHHHH!! futurebird 00:24, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

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Black people

Every opinion in the black people artilce gona piss someone off. If everyone remove opinions just cause the person might be racist or a hack, no article will be left. Black supremacists. Afrocentrics piss me off but I don't remove them from the article Christmasgirl

Warning

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly, as you are doing in Black people. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you.--Strothra 14:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Ur kidding. U come out of retirement to warn me and say nothing to the instigator of all this, Xmasgirl? Check the edit summaries and the talk page. Puhleeze. *x* deeceevoice 14:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I warned her as well. I just found this edit war particularly annoying when I went back to edit my account. --Strothra 14:55, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I see. Your warning to her posted after I made my post here. You found/find it annoying? Well, that makes two of us! deeceevoice 19:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Image:Two Curve Bell.jpg

Please weigh in on this IfD [8] futurebird 07:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you!

Thank you so much for your help with that IfD, It's nice to see things going the right way... for once. You know, it's string to feel like there is a real community here, and I'm starting to think that the wikipedia can be the kind of place that, with some work, people will be able to trust for real information... even on controversial topics. So, thank you. You comments got me to smile at a time that I needed to. This stuff can get me very depressed, you been such a big help, in so many ways. I can't even count 'em... and I'm a math teacher. futurebird 20:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't get all warm and fuzzy and rosy about this place, bird. It's still a racist dungheap. deeceevoice 22:39, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Black people

Hi Deeceevoice. I just feel that in your attempt to discredit a definition (which is only 1 out of dozens in the article), you are adding stuff to the article that is far more offensive than the quote you are trying to discredit. The quote is not saying anything bad about black people, it's simply identifying a segment of the population that the source uses the term to refer to. But in trying to discrecit the definition, you are adding negative stereotypes of black people to the article that will peak reader curiosity and cause them to read the source's theories. I also worry that if you try too hard to discredit the source, others will add information to defend the source, and then pretty soon the article will get off topic. I also worry you might start a trend where people who disagree with every controversial statement in the article will feel the need to discredit the source in the black people article itself instead of in the source's article. For example there are several on the talk page who disagree with Cheikh Anta Diop. I worry that people will follow your lead and feel the need to discredit him in the article on the grounds that the reader has the right to know his Afrocentric attitudes etc. It could cause a very well organized article to spiral into disorder. Iseebias

My point is to get the editors who want to include such information to do so from a credible source. This guy is not a credible source. And if you can't see that after all that information, then I don't know what to tell you. Getting publised (particularly in this age of endless media outlets, sensationalism and incivility) or occupying a university position hardly makes one a credible, authoritative source. "Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one." In this case, this guy is an opinion -- if you get my meaning. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, for God's sake. We should strive for a higher standard when utilizing people as sources. This guy doesn't pass muster; his biases are grotesquely evident. I am going to continue to insist that this guy's pedigree be evident to the reader. If they're going to consider his opinion, then they're entitled to know just what kind of a racist sleazebag he is. Frankly, I think it's pathetic that anyone would even consider using him as a source for anything in an encyclopedia. IMO, it seriously calls into question the judgment of some of the editors at work on the article -- not to mention the integrity of the entire project.deeceevoice 21:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

His ideas are nutty, but he's a credible source in the sense that he's a scholary source. He's published his ideas in peer reviewed academic journals. He has a very distinguished academic career. Even if he represents academic racism, acadeic racism has historically and even today played a huge role in how black identity has been socially constructed, so the article is not complete unless we explain how an allegedly academic racist decides who is black, and since we need to cite at least 1 allegedly racist academic, Rushton is the one to cite since he's the most scholarly of this group, and since his ideas have been so influential in creating stereotypes about black and Asian penis size etc Iseebias

His ideas haven't been influential about creating stereotypes about black and Asian penis size. Such stereotypes, though obviously not universally applicable, are based in objective fact. It's his extrapolations that are in question here. Reads like a mean, little man with intellect, but little real intelligence -- and a very small one. Reads like penis envy to me. :p deeceevoice 22:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

LOL! I have no idea whether his penis size data is correct or not but he is responsible for getting people to assume that men of sub-Saharan descent have larger penises and that East Asian men are penis challenged. The earliest explorers of sub-Saharan Africa had observed the large penises but these observations had mostly been forgoten until Rushton brought it back using modern statistics and related it to AIDS. Essentially what Rushton is claiming is that less evolved organisms such as bacteria, snakes, salmon, can only survive by reproducing as much as possible as quickly as possible, and he argues that since the first humans were Africans, they're less evolved (compared to other humans) and thus are superior in all the traits that allow one to reproduce as much as possible(genitalia size, breast size, buttox size, extraverted personality, muscle mass, speed of physical, motor and sexual maturation, gestitation speed, orgasm frequency, number of sexual partners, frequency of twinning, number of sexual fantasies, more testosterone) but he argues that since East Asians came most recently in evolution and had to survive in a cold winter environment, they survive by having fewer children but invest more in parental care and thus are superior in traits like brain size and intelligence, mental stability, law abidingness, social organization, higher birth weight babies with less infant mortatlity etc. On all of these traits he claims whites are in the middle with blacks and East Asians at opposite extremes. It's an extremely strange theory Iseebias

Forgotten by whom? It's common knowledge out here that white men and Asians have relatively/generally smaller penises than black men. I don't know where you've been! Still, I really couldn't care less about Rushton's theories in that regard, though. He's a jackass. deeceevoice 00:19, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

It's been common knowledge since 1989, when Rushton went public with his theory Iseebias

You don't have a clue what you're talking about. That's like saying the fact that the sun comes up in the morning has been common knowledge since 1989. What? You've got to be joking! I've known it practically all my life. It's simply common knowledge, and it's got absolutely nothing to do with Rushton -- whatsoever. It's always been an undercurrent in tensions between black men and white men -- particular with regard to black men and white women, and also with regard to the relative disdain with which many black women historically have regarded the notion of relationships with white men (that and other reasons). Hell, when southern crackkkahs lynched black men, they particularly enjoyed castrating them and making souvenirs of their genitalia. Sum sick sh*t that. You must be a youngun not to know something as basic -- and pervasive -- as this. I haven't read this, but just so you know.[9] deeceevoice 00:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

You might be right. I was still a kid when Rushton's theory came out so it was the first time I heard about it, but perhaps I'm generalizing too much from my personal experience. As for the stereotype that East Asians have small penises, I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but that might have been discovered/popularized by Rushton Iseebias

No "might" about it. That's a definite. And wrong again. Asians -- common knowledge for God knows how long, too. deeceevoice 00:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Rolling on floor, laughing

I was literally off the chair after reading your words at the bell curve discussion. ---Sluzzelin 21:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

- Just stating facts. That old heiffer's name was Wilhelmina Smithy, if memory serves. A real Germanic- (maybe Russian-) -lookin', arm wrestlin', cow-milkin', two-fisted-beer-drinkin', steroid-takin'-lookin' broad. If there's any justice, she's long gone now and moulderin' in the ground. deeceevoice 21:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey not all math teacers are evil! futurebird :P

User notice: temporary 3RR block

futurebird 15:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Regarding reversions[10] made on February 18 2007 to Black people

You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three-revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future.

The duration of the block is 24 hours. William M. Connolley 21:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Like I give a sh*t. I'm crunching deadlines -- three of 'em, ad seriatim, so 24 hours suits me just fine. deeceevoice 21:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Cool source?

"A Cameroonian painter and guitar player he befriended "was into James Brown and Joni Mitchell." There seemed to be no limit to cultural connections. Take the word "cool": "In West Africa when they want to say they are doing well, they'll use the image of coolness. In pidgin English, you refer to the woman you love as 'my cool heart.' As opposed to the Western world where the image of love is hot. Women wear fiery red lipstick. But 'cool' has come to be used here too. One of the first jazz records I owned was Miles Davis's 'The Birth of the Cool" -Corey Harris

Reaching Deftly Beyond the Blues By Mike Zwerin International Herald Tribune Wednesday, August 23, 2000 http://www.iht.com/articles/2000/08/23/harris.2.t.php

futurebird 15:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

hey

Did you see the sources I added for African aesthetic? When I started looking in to this topic it was not clear to me if this topic was a branch of African philosophy (that is, African aesthetics) of if it was something else. I'm really bogged down with "Race and intelligence" right now. It's under mediation-- I'm starting to think that, though the article is still filled with a good amount of nonsense, it is looking more balanced. If you ever have a chance please take a look. I'd love any feedback you have on things that seem to be missing. I've worked so hard on this I'm thinking about it in my sleep and woke up with this little poem stuck in my head:

no school for harlem
ain't harlem home?
bisecting reason till it quivers
what was once words and lines
at last came out of me
laughing idiotic poetry

I'll fly on over to check out Black supremacy in the next few days. I'm just hoping that things will cool down. Don't want to get caught in the crossfire. futurebird 02:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey back. :)

Maybe I'll have the patience over the weekend. That particular subject really pisses me off. My I.Q. is at genius level -- and I know so many others of us who are at least as intelligent as I. The numbers don't mean squat as far as I'm concerned. Too many people trip off that sh*t: white folks on a racist tip; insecure/narcissistic (flip sides of the same coin), black folks on a "I ain't a dumb (n-word) tip." How dare white folks still try to uphold that tired, hackneyed bullsh*t in this day and age. Honestly, I hate to even dignify that page with my presence! But since you've asked, I will....

The SNCC thing at BS (appropriate acronym :p) really pissed me off. Stokely was in no way a supremacist. I can't stand those who come to a subject with an axe to grind, determined to lie and lie and lie about a subject, twist sources and edit war ad nauseam. It's one of the things I really hate about this place. They and their sock puppets make a mockery of the project.

"Don't want to get caught in the crossfire." Gurl, u shouldn't 've come then, 'cause if u stand up for us, u eventually become a target. Believe me, ur warm, fuzzy optimism about this place won't last long. Peace. deeceevoice 02:27, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Just saw the stuff at African aesthetic. Cool. Thanks. :) Don't know if/when I'll get around to that one, but maybe someone with some common sense will attempt to tackle it. If I do, it'll probably be piecemeal, maybe dealing with cool first. (An edit warrior at cool (aesthetic) keeps deleting the stuff I added. I finally got around to inserting the documentation for what I've contended all along. The edit warring is just sour grapes. Oh, no-oo-oooo. Something else they adore that they didn't invent/can't legitimately lay claim to! lol As annoying as this place is, sometimes u just gotta laugh. deeceevoice 02:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

fyi

[11]

Do you have anything to add to this? futurebird 05:43, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I've added a few comments, but they're probably more appropriate to an RfC against Rabaish, with his constant edit-warring and taking black supremacy to an outside party for mediation/outside review (or whatever they call it). Clearly, the ongoing campaign by Rabaish to twist sources and edit-war a racist/paleocon agenda in the articles he edits needs to be addressed head-on. Honestly, I've never really paid much attention to this aspect of wiki operations. This place is infested with sock puppets.

Also, have you checked out edits by this guy? 84.178.243.138 deeceevoice 08:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

re: 'cool', seeing red

Is it really so painful to simply admit that one of the major aesthetic achievements of american culture has african origins? My... god... futurebird 07:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

black people

I think we're very close to a compromise on this. I'm willing to accomodate you as much as possible as long as you acknowledge my concerns Iseebias

I'm reading your responses and responding as best I can. (I feel like we're negotiating a treaty or something....) deeceevoice 12:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

please see talk page

please see the "cool" talk page for explanation of changes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.112.7.212 (talk) 08:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

hmm. I don't know how to do that

RFC? You can do that for a user? futurebird 14:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Ethiopians

Hopefully my views on Ethiopians don't offend you. Hallaqah was offended by my latest post but you and I have made such great progress cooperating in spite of our disagreement that I would hate to see this minor disagreement (which we've now solved) get in the way of the great work you and I have done on the article. I don't think it will because you've always expressed your disagreement in a civil and intelligent way. Iseebias

I'm just now seeing this -- and I don't know when it was posted. (I suppose I could check the edit history.) Anyway, I haven't paid much attention to the text lately. Maybe I'll get back to it next week. Peace. :) deeceevoice 17:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

2005

Was a long time ago. I really couldn't care less about the RFC 71.112.7.212 posted to my talk page on you. May I ask, though, was Rbaish involved in that process? If he/she was then it's just more evidence that 71.112.7.212 is a puppet. 22:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Race and health

Rather than pull my hair out of the stupid Race and intelligence article, I've started working on a brand new article on Race and health everything there is new as of yesterday. I hope that you'll take a look at this and point out anything you think I ought to add. futurebird 17:33, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Race and intelligence (explanations)‎

I really need some help with this article. I've added a ton of evidence against the genetic explanation, but now WRN is trying to frame the whole thing in terms of "well you never know it might be genetics!" --It's the idea that no matter what you do, I mean, even if there was no test score gap, until you have proven there is NO genetic link you ought to assume that there is one. He's invoking Occam's razor and I think that's ABSURD. Occam's razor says choose the obvious cause: RACISM. duh duh duh. I've just about had it with this article. How many years will it be before people simply realise that (a) Jensen is a nut (b) we ought to have been spending all this time and research money trying to help people live better lives rather than trying to prove that people are inferior because of some 19th century vendetta in some circles of the academic community against africa.

I'm just really angry and sick of going in circles. I need some help. I don't want to just give up and watch as all of my hard work is slowly obliterated. futurebird 05:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand your frustration. What you're experiencing is exactly the kind of crap that has happened to my contributions here: e.g., the article on the "race" of the ancient Egyptians and on the Great Sphinx of Giza article. I'll be busy crunching deadlines all tonight, tomorrow and, likely, part of Monday, but I'll see what I can do sometime Monday -- in between working on DC Sudan divestment. (I've got calls to some city council folks to make.) Cool? deeceevoice 08:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I haven't even read the article yet, but I noticed that Rushton is dealt with a lot. So, I added the information about his background and criticism of his bullsh*t "studies." Also, I'm wondering if there's any information included in the article about language development and I.Q. It's another element that flat-out debunks the "black folks are inferior" crap racist POV pushers love to insert in articles such as this. deeceevoice 10:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

There is a section on the barriers presented by unrecognized dialects (as opposed to recognized languages) but it is quite short and could use some expansion. There's some BS in it to about "why do the Chinese do so well if they don't know english??" It totally fails to recognizes that no teacher would come up to a new kid who speaks Chinese and say that the way they speak is "Wrong" and no teachers are getting frustrated with young people because they don't come to school speaking SE or acting like learning AAVE so they can teach SE is some kind of awful indignity.

Nobody assumes that person speaking Chinese or even speaking English with a heavy Chinese accent is "dumb" we just think "oh they don't know english yet."

But if a kid say "These normal curves ain't got no base in science, yo!" suddenly most teachers are thinking "oh my, this kid's stupid" That isn't clear the way it's written now. I'm just starting to look at all the info in AAVE. Maybe you are more familiar with some sources to use?

Also, some researches say that writing a test in AAVE hasn't helped to reduce the gap, so that means AAVE isn't a cause of the gap. I'd love to look at those tests. I really doubt these people could write in AAVE even if they tried. futurebird 18:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh and thanks for the help. It matters where there are a few editors there working. It helps show that the article is being watched. As soon as I try to take a break the BS starts creeping in. Quotes are copped to change their meaning and some of the changes are plain dishonest. Like saying that "Flynn supports Jensen's rejection of Factor X" when Jensen was talking about factor X for differences between races and Flynn was talking about factor X for differences between generations! I think the idea is that one can get away with this kind of thing if the material is technical. Most people can't be bothered to notice these kinds of errors. There are probably many others. The more I look at it the more I see that so much of this article is justa big house of cards. futurebird 18:58, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

"The more I look at it the more I see that so much of this article is justa big house of cards."

Sorry. I'm still snowed under with deadlines, so I haven't been much help. But, hey, welcome to Wikipedia. The truth is often a casualty here. deeceevoice 20:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

"fanonite"

I barely glazed over the Israel-South Africa relations link you sent me before, but I just happened to go back to his blog later while researching the Palestinian Israeli conflict. The "fanonite" is not a black nationalist (as I presumed by the link), but rather an Islamist apologist. Note, I am not criticizing him for being anti-Israel, or pro-palestinian. I'm criticizing him for being an Islamist. Considering the havoc that Islamism has already reaked on Africa, you might as well have linked me to a guy who supported the Arab slave trade.--Urthogie 00:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

So, you object to the source? Just google the info. There are multiple links from multiple sources that will provide essentially the same information. You doubt the extent to which neo-fascist elements of the Zionist movement collaborated to shore up racist Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa? You also might try googling the ADL spy case, where it spied on a variety of perfectly legitimate, leftist organizations, etc. -- like anti-apartheid groups in the U.S. and the ANC -- and turned the information over to not only the U.S. government, but to the apartheid South African government as well.

Time for a reality check. That is, of course, if you're ready to read the whole truth instead of just the warm-and-fuzzy side of the role of Jews in the struggle for African independence. deeceevoice 20:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I love reality checks. Please just supply me with a good link that expresses your view. I've already read the Jewish side of the issue and I've read the mainstream side of the issue. I'd like to hear the black or African side too, if you could link me to a reliable source.--Urthogie 20:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The www is available to you, just as it is to me. deeceevoice 22:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

As a sidenote, my class in school is currently doing a huge project based on your blackface article in relation to Mark Twain's Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.--Urthogie 21:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

How are they relating the blackface to Huck Finn? deeceevoice 23:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The question is if Jim is a character with depth or merely a one-sided (racist) caricature, and also the influence of minstrel shows on Twain's portrayal of him. There's also this PBS video we watched on the controversy and bannings of the book.--Urthogie 00:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Sounds a hell of a lot more interesting than when my high school class read the book. As usual, I was the only black person in the room, and I wasn't exactly jazzed about it. Back then, in the Dark Ages, there was no black literature in the curriculum -- just the usual -- Johnny Tremaine, Faulkner's pervasive racism, John Steinbeck's gratuitous racism, etc. I complained about how we had to read about Nigger Jim, then asked defiantly where were the stories about "Honky Huck." (The teacher wasn't amused -- but, then, neither was I.) deeceevoice 05:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

cornrows and bo derek

Hey, I just deleted that Bo Derek picture from Cornrow, and made a comment regarding the picture on the talk page. Looking at the edit history, it seems that you've deleted the picture several times yourself. I'd appreciate a comment lending your support, if you feel comfortable giving it. Cheers!70.231.253.59 21:15, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

race and ancient egypt

hey, this might amaze you, but I've worked out complete consensus with an Afrocentrist on this page. take a look and tell me what you think, --Urthogie 04:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned fair use image (Image:African_Ceremonies_bookcover.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:African_Ceremonies_bookcover.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable under fair use (see our fair use policy).

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Kwame Ture / Carmichael & A-APRP

With reference to Kwame Ture / Stokely Carmichael and the All-African People's Revolutionary Party: I tried to look into it, but I suspect that you may do a better job of sorting it out. There seem to be a lot of gray-zone sites (Geocities and the like), and I'm not sure what is real & reliable. - Jmabel | Talk 03:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

By the way, Dave Garrow, who is cited in that article, lived directly over me one year in college (he had the dullest musical tastes of any young person I ever knew), and undoubtedly first heard Carmichael speak in person on exactly the same occasion I did, when Carmichael visited Wesleyan, I think in '73. - Jmabel | Talk 04:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)