User talk:Dennis Brown/Archive 20

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Providing clarity

Hi Dennis, Do you remember Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive245#Request_to_lift_restriction? It looks like no one knew about [1] when they arrived at their decision. I was wondering if you can comment here and highlight if this was known? Cheers, IRWolfie- (talk) 12:37, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I've only notified you at the moment because I trust your opinion, if you want to notify anyone else, feel free, IRWolfie- (talk) 12:39, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

• Facepalm - I've commented there. That was a bad close, very ill conceived. I actually like the guy, but he has a habit of being his own worst enemy at times. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:45, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Cheers for the comment. Unfortunately he appears to have decided to retire; although I think that sort of spot decision is something someone does in the heat of the moment before reversing, IRWolfie- (talk) 15:29, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I hope he doesn't. He really is a good guy, he just makes mistakes (like the rest of us). Unfortunately for him, his mistakes tend to be very public ones and he has been taken to task. I don't think we need to flog him, just point out the mistake and move on. He has apologized and I take him at his word, very sincerely. The thread probably needs to be closed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:26, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

His message [2] is a little troubling as it appears he thinks we (the rest of the community) are the problem, IRWolfie- (talk) 01:40, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

The block was a mistake by Kim, who admitted as much. Kim didn't know he restrictions had been lifted. Obviously, the mistake started with the bad close, and it just went downhill from there, a series of rash but honest mistakes. I tried to email him, but he has email disabled :/ Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:42, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Whoops!

Sorry about that, I was browsing my watchlist on my phone and miss-clicked "rollback" apparently. grr, damn phone! — -dainomite   18:39, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

• I've done it plenty of times to others myself, no harm done. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:43, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Just curious but is there any way to see my watchlist if I made a separate account for viewing WP from my phone? — -dainomite   18:53, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Other than copy and pasting your raw watchlist to your alt account, not that I know of. Transcluding watchlists would be nice, but rather impractical. I use the raw watchlist solution for my alt account. Vacation9 19:00, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

+(edit conflict)Watchlists are private, ie: can only be seen when logged into that account. I can't see "Dennis Brown" watchlist when I am logged into User:Pharmboy. What you CAN do is log into your main account, go to your Watchlist, choose "Edit raw watchlist" at the top, copy it, then log into your alt. account, do the same and paste it. Of course, you will need to update it periodically. It won't be in sync, showing which pages you have already looked at with the other account, but the raw watchlist will still be there. Not perfect, but close enough and should be adequate for most uses. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:00, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much, looks like I will be making User:Dainophone in a minute. Cheers, — -dainomite   19:27, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I suggest putting tags on the user pages for both accounts, linking them. You can steal the template off my user page. I have Pharmboy and Farmer Brown as alts. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:00, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

The template route is one way to handle it; I took a different route and simply redirected User:Puppy to User:KillerChihuahua. Then there is User:Bishzilla, a full fledged (and scaled and flamebreathing) alt account with an active talk page etc. I couldn't keep up with that, myself. KillerChihuahua 22:00, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Yep yep, I did. On my alt account I wrote that it's my alt and why I made the account and on my Userpage I added the userbox "This user has an alternative account named Dainophone." Is there anything else I should do?— -dainomite   22:14, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Nope, just pay attention and don't accidentally !vote with both accounts on the same discussion. KillerChihuahua 22:25, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Roger dodger. Thanks for the help everyone.— -dainomite   22:37, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Like he said, now you are legit. I do redirect my user pages to this account, just to make it easier to get here. I really don't want different user and talk pages, although that is an acceptable option. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:15, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

@Dainomite: You do have two other options: You can remove the rollback link from your watchlist (instructions here) or you can monitor your watchlist using an RSS feed (instructions here). ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:17, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

I did not know about the RSS feed option, wow. KillerChihuahua 00:29, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm old and haven't used RSS for squat, so I didn't know about it either. Guess we old guys need to RTFM ;) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:32, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

I remembered reading about it some time ago, but I had to use Google to find it again. I've never tried it, as I hardly even know what a RSS feed is or how to use one. I think blog people use them? :-) ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:35, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

They are good for smart phones as well, although my phone is a dumb as a bag of hammers. As far as tablets, mine is 10", large enough I can use regular pages, so I don't get the feeds on it either. I do have to use the $5 Walmart reading glasses with it, though. He will still have to copy/paste the watchlist to get the feed, however, but it might be a better choice for a smart phone. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:39, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

I have RSS feeds for my favorite blogs, but didn't know you could add a feed for a Wikipedia Watchlist. KillerChihuahua 01:20, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

And now I find that Google Reader is going to be discontinued. What. The. Heck. How could they do that to me? Does anyone have an app they'd recommend as a replacement? KillerChihuahua 10:48, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Your close of a developing discussion at an Rfa talk page

May I register my dismay at your close of the discussion started by Collect at the Binksternet Rfa talk page? Yes, Collect had exploded, but a number of interesting points have been raised by Viriditas, which gives the impression, rightly or wrongly, that you wish to stifle discussion and save Collect from further meltdown. Coming from an admin, this creates a chilling effect, and to me that is inappropriate. An Rfa must be regarded as an area where freedom to speak should take precedence, and your action runs counter to that, in my view. Jusdafax 17:55, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

• Your opinion is noted, but a pissing match about what is and isn't canvassing isn't the same as a discussion on the merits of the candidate. If there is any evidence of improper action, WP:ANI is the venue, not the talk page of an RfA, as I pointed out in that discussion. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:10, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
• Fair enough, and I thank you for the reply. I will just add that in my view, the discussion, though heated, seemed on the verge of some interesting information, and moving it to a new venue disrupts the existing flow... so it goes. Thanks again. Jusdafax 01:02, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I do respect your opinion, and I hope you know my primary goal wasn't to censor anyone, it was to calm the situation down and just let the RfA continue in a fair manner. With all the other stuff I've said since, that is probably more obvious now than when you first voiced your concern. You are always welcome to voice an opinion or concern here on my talk page. Sometimes we will agree, sometimes not, but I will always listen to a sincere concern. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:10, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

give it up

re:WER ... you're fighting a losing battle. — Ched :  ?  06:13, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

• All too often, sadly. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:40, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
• Holy cow, I've been out of touch for a while now, and just now saw that Hersfold and Coren have both resigned Arb, Arb has gone bonkers over Malleus/George (and likely should have just adopted Worm's "do nothing public" approach), and I think dogs have been seen eating cat food in the land. I haven't said anything publicly, but I've been more than a little discouraged here as well, depressingly so, and this doesn't help. Fortunately, my work has consumed me, giving me an opportune time to take a partial break and hopefully recharge the batteries for Wikipedia, but this is most depressing. I don't have an answer or solution here. It is like the entire community has lost its way and forgotten we are here to build a free encyclopedia that anyone, anywhere can use for their own personal betterment. The politics are suffocating us all. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:03, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

• Hersfold did more - he gave up his tools. You should pay more attention to Drmies's talk page, where your name is plastered before every edit. :-) It is depressing, isn't it? Hope your real-life work is going well.--Bbb23 (talk) 12:13, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

• Actually, real life work sucks right now, there is just a lot of it. The economy is killing us, so I have to work twice as hard to just tread water. Hopefully next year will be better. I miss chatting with you both, I might add. What little time I do have here tends to get tied up with putting out fires, but thankfully, my stalkers do a great job and lessening the load for me. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:37, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I guess I should have mentioned something to you sooner Dennis but I was hoping you already knew and didn't want to mention anything that would just dredge things up again but...yeah freaking depressing.--Amadscientist (talk) 01:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

ANI

While not fully up to speed, I am not convinced that blocking Durneydiaz is the right approach. I posted at ANI, and would like your input, as I propose an unblock, followed by a stern waning, I am willing to write.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 17:40, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

• I've replied there. I am usually the first to recommend a warning rather than a block, but this editor has a history of ignoring others, and of being blocked, so it was my judgement that a block was required to insure future compliance. That said, as always, you are free to revert me without my permission. I always like a reason and a notification, as you have done here, and I don't take it personally. If there is a consensus that I was too quick to block, I will defer to the wisdom of the community. My agreeing isn't requisite to compliance. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:39, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I will do that.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 18:52, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Still open ANI

Hi Dennis, you were addressing an ANI regarding Till but it was left unresolved. User:Till has continued to edit despite a note from Status suggesting that Till had decided to leave Wikipedia. Do you have any final thoughts on how it should be closed as Till hadn't responded as to whether your advice would be an agreeable closure of the issue? Thanks, Mkdw^talk 23:28, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

• I think Till got the message. I've blocked Till before, but I actually get along with him fine. It wasn't personal, and he understands that. I am pretty sure he knows what the expectations are, the same as for anyone, so I wouldn't worry. Till gets in moods sometimes, but he is actually a good and productive editor most of the time. I would just leave well enough alone for now. If there is a repeat or issue, you can ping me. If I'm not around, I have faith a talk page stalker will notice it and talk with him, but at this point, I don't want to antagonize him by telling him what he already knows. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:20, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Stubs and ANI

I'm not getting anywhere on the talk page - a load of very hostile responses. I've half-typed a few replies but cancelled them as I'm sure someone will shoot them down. I'm feeling very disillusioned about Wikipedia, collegiality, etc and inclined to just abandon stub-sorting or even quit the encyclopedia.

I'm just asking someone to do things one of two ways, which are equally easy for him: the one which saves other editors time, or the way he chooses to do it. He won't explain, won't reply, and everyone else seems to side with him. (And that edit message of his depresses me every time I see it, as just a lousy hostile environment in which to try to communicate - in-joke for the film project it may be, but it's just b...y rude for everyone else.) PamD 23:30, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

• I've left a message on Lugnuts talk page. What bothered me was the claim that the ANI was in bad faith, which I saw no indication of. It was a pretty minor issue for ANI, but as I told him, if he would have replied to his talk page, it would have been helpful since you could have discussed it there. It is still early in the discussion, don't get discouraged just yet. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:27, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks.

Thanks for the quick response at Sega Genesis. APL (talk) 03:51, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

• No problem. You did the right thing by raising your hand and admitting you got a little overboard in reverting. None of us is perfect, we all get carried a way every once in a while, so no harm, no foul. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:17, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Belchfire

I saw that you re-blocked Belchfire (talk · contribs) for 3 months after his most recent round of block-evading sockpuppetry. Is there any reason that this editor has not yet been indefinitely blocked? He's been a long-term ideological edit-warrior who racked up 5 blocks for politically motivated edit-warring even before the sockpuppetry kicked in. Now he's repeatedly evading his block. I've seriously considered simply extending the block to indefinite myself - which I think would be more than justified - but I've had enough editorial interaction with Belchfire that I'd rather run it by an outside admin like yourself. At his best, this editor was a highly combative, ideologically driven edit-warrior, and now he's also a block-evading sockpuppeteer. I'm putting in a plea, on behalf of people who might actually have to deal with him editorially in the future, to close the door on an editor who is obviously a poor fit with this site's goals and policies. MastCell ^Talk 22:28, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

• I considered an indef, but since the last block was a month, three months seemed the logical next step, and I decided to err on the conservative side. I expect the next block will certainly be indef. If an uninvolved admin thinks I've been too generous, I won't be offended if they want to modify the block term. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:45, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
  • May I suggest taking this to the community, perhaps at ANI? Like MastCell, I feel that Belchfire has worn out his welcome at Wikipedia, and the multiple socking is the last straw. I'd be surprised if there wasn't support for a community ban, which should be the proposal. This is one bad cookie. Jusdafax 00:52, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
    • From my experience, a ban wouldn't fly at this stage. ANI isn't the right venue, WP:AN is anyway, but I am pretty sure they will just maintain the 3 month block. Honestly, in a week or two, it will likely be an indef due to his own actions, but at the end of the day, we can say we treated him evenly and fairly, with escalating blocks and every opportunity to conform to community standards. It is irritating, but realistically, if I changed the block to one month or 1000 months, it isn't going to change what he does. In the larger scope of things, I think we are better by just treating him like anyone else, block wise, and the three month is pretty consistent with other socks. If you really feel strong about it, I would instead suggest going to a CU, like User:DeltaQuad or User:DoRD, since the block was made at SPI. I really don't mind and take no offense in the least. If they feel a longer block is the better solution, I will happily defer to their superior experience. It says so at the top of my user page, any admin is free to change any action I do, I don't claim to be the ultimate authority, I just do what I think is appropriate. Dragging it to AN or ANI is just going to cause drama and draw more attention to him, which is the last thing we really want to do here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:01, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
      • I totally agree, which is why I came here rather than WP:AN. Thanks for your response; I think I'll just let it go for now. MastCell ^Talk 03:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
        • In case you haven't noticed, Belchfire was just indef'ed [3] for continuing to sock. In reality, it is a shame since he has the communication and education skills to be an asset here, but chose to spend too much time pushing his political agenda, and compounded that will socking to continue to push that same agenda. It is an absolute waste. I'm not shocked, as politics (on both sides) can make some smart people do really dumb things, but I am disappointed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:23, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Out of pocket

I'm probably going to be scarce for the next few days, again. It was nice to be back for a couple of days, but I have to do some research on UV curing lamps, which means 1600 measurements, done manually, plus tons of other mind numbing tasks, and my regular job, at the same time. Days like that, I'm too tired to be effective by the evening, so its usually best I just go play SimCity 3000 or shoot ghouls in Fallout 3 for an hour and go to bed. I will check in case anything needs follow up that was started earlier. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:51, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) UV lamps? The kind dermatologists use? I'm a dermatologist, if I can be of any assistance... DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 02:32, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, actually the kind many dermatologists rail against, to be frank. We are working on some custom formulations for UV cure finishes. I have 100 customers out there using them for curing finishes on surf boards, fishing lures, pool cues and even a guy in Hawaii who makes hand crafted ukuleles. I'm testing different phosphor blends, different lamp diameters and lengths, even different ballasts and power levels. There are 1600 different measurements I have to make for just the preliminary tests. The testing rigs are fairly stone age in some ways, I had to custom build them to test all the different lamps, and using hand held meters instead of a real spectrometer, but for this purpose, they should work quite well since I'm shooting for a center frequency of 370-385nm, and the hand meters are most sensitive at 370nm. Most (but not all) dermatological lamps are centered around UVB where you get erythema, while UV curing is almost exclusively high UVA, and very close to the same frequencies that make melanin oxidize (tan). As this gets into my personal COI, it is a topic I generally avoid editing at enwp, except to donate images and such. I'm no doctor or scientist, I'm just the marketing/geek guy/wannabee engineer, although I've been around it 20 years and have a pretty round set of experiences with it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:24, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Interesting! I didn't know about that use for long-wave UV. The dermatology standard was broadband UVB (around 290-320nm) for many years -- then in the early '80s we switched to PUVA, which uses UVA in the 350-400 neighborhood. When that turned out to be more carcinogenic than predicted, we went to narrowband UVB (311-312nm), and that's where we remain at present. Sorry about the 1600 measurements -- that's the kind of stuff that persuaded me to abandon bench research for the real world. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 21:13, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

90-95% of the output is centered around 370nm +/- 5nm, with the 5%-10% of the output being UVB centered around 312-315nm. We also created a lamp that has a nice bump in the 285-287nm range, which requires 10x less since your skin is more sensitive at that frequency. To give you some stats, the test curing lamps I'm working on have an output of around 15 mW/cm² @370nm measured 1 inch from the lamp (it has a reflector inside the bulb), pretty similar to a high quality tanning lamp. They will be a F32 or F40, 48" bipin style, and price around $30 ea. and use a $20 fixture from Home Depot, a fraction of medical lamps (our F71/F72/F73 lamps are $10-20, you docs take a bath on the prices you have to pay for essentially the same thing) Next week, I get to saw a few dozen 1x3x6" pine boards and start coating them with UV resin to time the curing times. Exciting, huh? It's literally like watching paint dry, although the cure times should be around 5 minutes. Truth be told, I enjoy the research as long as I don't have to do it all day, every day. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:13, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

you docs take a bath on the prices you have to pay for essentially the same thing -- tell me about it! DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 00:29, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Quick question at ANI

It's probably easy to overlook so I wanted to let a message here about it, but I just left a quick question for you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#insults, since you're comment kind of confused me in regards to the edit summary given. Maybe it's just me misreading it or something, so I just wanted to ask. Thanks. - SudoGhost 04:50, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

• I saw that edit, and that was my first reply, that I didn't see anything in that summary that was worth getting upset about. He had also mentioned that "obscure" upset him somewhere else (forgive me for not looking it up, it is 1 a/m/, the pain meds are kicking in, had to get up because I couldn't sleep.) The overarching message is the same regardless, if someone upsets you, that doesn't justify getting rude back. Gixz's comments was an escalation, although looking back, I probably should have also recommended Noclador tone back his summaries as well. You could tell Noclador that using "BS" and exclamation marks in edit summaries is usually a bad idea and can cause problems like this (I try to not warn/educate people during the infrequent times I'm on pain meds, as it affects my communications skills). In my mind, Gixz's response was worse than the original summary, but of course, if you think I'm off base, I'm open to your input as always. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 05:11, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

question

How busy you going to be today (or perhaps tomorrow)? I'd be interested in your input/perspective on something; IP and WER related, but I also know your time here is limited. It's not an "open issue", so if you've got other things to look at, then that's fine too. Cheers. — Ched :  ?  11:38, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not sure how busy, but odds are good I will be pretty slammed for the next couple of days. Can't really tell because I just got to work 90 minutes ago (after being up most all last night) and started testing and finding very unexpected results on some research I'm doing, and having to rewrite some testing procedures from scratch, and my head is a bit in a fog with preoccupation and lack of sleep. Email me if you like, and I will do my best, but I can't make promises. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I'll throw a couple links in email this weekend. Good luck with the work. — Ched :  ?  12:38, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Barnstar

		Ye 'ole Broken Tuchusref Barnstar
		For your extended efforts, and breaking yon Gluteus maximus (your backside, behind, butt, rear-end - OK "Busting Ass") to maintain the drama levels of Wikipedia, Ched would like to award you (Dennis Brown) the Broken Tuchus Barnstar.

• I saw you already had that Admin. Barnstar thing, and I see what ya do at AN, AN/I, etc. and wanted to note that. — Ched :  ?  16:34, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

• • That is very kind of you. I didn't start keeping barnstars until 11 months ago, but now I keep them in the Barnstar Vault. You guys have been entirely more generous than I deserve. Each one really does bring a smile, however, so I appreciate. Your's has been added for safe keeping. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:38, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Me? Kind? ... Opinions may vary on that one. :-) — Ched :  ?  20:48, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Too kind for your own good some days. That is a good "flaw" to have around here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:55, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Regarding User:Deven94

Hi Dennis Brown,

Thanks for your assistance with User:Deven94 yesterday, it is appreciated that WP admins are able to assist when needed.

As you probably know, I created my account over a year ago at home, although I sometimes (as I am right now) log in at college to browse and sometimes edit - or if needed, revert vandalism by Deven94.

Am I correct in believing that I am free to revert vandalism and/or my own edits without falling foul of 3RR?

Anyway, thanks for reminding Deven94 about conduct on WP. I'll try to keep an eye on him when I can and I'll re-report at ANI if I notice any further unconstructive editing from his account.

By the way, I noticed that he was 'playing about' with my user and talk page yesterday after I notified him of the ANI report, though he doesn't appear to have made any changes is there any way you can prevent him from editing my userspace whilst still allowing other users (and myself) to contribute to my talk page and user page?

Thanks.

Regards, Usual people in life (talk) 09:57, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

• When it comes to 3RR and vandalism, you need to be 100% sure that everyone will agree that what you are reverting is vandalism. IE: it "this is teh sux!" type vandalism. Otherwise, you open yourself up. If it is vandalism, and clearly meets WP:VANDAL, then you are better to leave them a warning once or twice, then report it to WP:AIV if they keep it up. If it doesn't meet the criteria at WP:VANDAL, and is just something you disagree with, the normal dispute resolution system is in play. Any time you break 3RR, you risk drawing attention to yourself, and a block, even if you are sure you are in the right, so it is better to just avoid breaking 3RR if at all possible. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:06, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Understood, thanks for that.

I read about 3RR some time ago, but I have reason to believe that it's time for me to reread them. Usual people in life (talk) 12:06, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

High Rock Lake

Hello there. I have been thinking about trying to improve High Rock Lake to GA status. If you don't mind, would you be willing to join forces and give some helpful tips on how to improve it? Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:26, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

• I'm a bit tied on time for the next several weeks, but I would love to do what I can to get it to GA status. I own one house on the lake itself (the lead image is the view from my porch), and it is a 10 minute drive from where I'm living now, so getting local sourcing or images is trivial. The article is better now than before I started, but there is lots of room for updating and improvement, that is for sure. I'm supposed to be helping with Yadkin-Pee Dee river basin, to get to GA, but I think that is stalled at the moment. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:48, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

• Indeed, there is a lot of room for improvement on the article. I can understand why you're busy at the moment. Thanks for the timely response. Best wishes, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:55, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

• I still want to work on it, but it will have to be a slower pace. If you have some ideas on information that needs to be gathered, ping me and I will work on that, the background stuff. That article genuinely has the potential to be a solid GA with some help. With all the Alcoa issues, etc., there is a lot to write about. I'm better at sourcing and fact gathering than writing poetically, and my proximity makes it easier to get info that isn't on the web and would be hard to gather otherwise. So yes, if you can do so slowly, I'm very interested. I wouldn't want to start the GA process until we did a fairly significant rewrite. This means I need to firm up the Alcoa elements first, which are outdated and trust me, it is a complicated mess. I might even take a couple of hours and go fishing for crappie this weekend for, um, research ;)... Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

• I'll see what I can do, mate. Finding information the lake's history (even before the Alcoa issues) on the Internet can be complicating, though. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:58, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I know that a French company started the project, abandoned it and sold the thing to someone else about 100 years ago, etc. I've gone to a few meetings here, where there was protests/concerns about Alcoa, met a few people in the know, was a member of the HRL association for a while until they became overly pro-Alcoa, etc. It will take a bit, but I bet the local library has some books on it that a regular library wouldn't, by regional authors, and that you can't find on the internet. Our library is pretty good for such a small town, plus I have online access to resources the average editor doesn't, including a HighBeam account I just got but haven't used yet. Since it is a hydroelectric dam and a very old one, there is a lot of interesting history to it, and likely a great deal that I don't even know about yet. There are some documented quirks about it as well, such as it produces electricity more efficiently when the lake level is lower rather than higher, which is odd since that means it has lower head pressure and counter-intuitive as well as unusual. I'm not sure why, but can find out and get that sourced. There is a lot of available information that makes the lake unique, and of course, unique means interesting, if properly written. I think you have me a bit excited about the project. I don't like trying to do stuff this big alone, I really need someone else to help, to say "No, Dennis" every now and then, to give balance. I think that is why I worked so well with Malleus on 1950s American automobile culture, getting it to my first GA, as I do better with a strong personality who will forget I'm an admin and just work with me as a fellow editor. Well, that and the fact that he is an incredible wordsmith. I'm looking forward to this. Again, my strong suit is digging up facts and sources, while my prose is mediocre but improving. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 05:00, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Yep. I am also a member of the guild of copy-editors, so I can help do some copyediting some prose as well, so I hope my copyediting can come in handy. My main purpose of Wikipedia is, and will always be, to create, expand, and improve articles to the highest degree possible. ;-) Speaking of which, I'm working on a few other articles so we can feature them as TFAs on the Main Page to celebrate a few anniversaries of a couple of film releases as the births/deaths of famous classical composers too. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:26, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

My first and only GA was only a couple of months ago. I'm more of a communicator, mediator, which is why going admin made sense for me. I do a lot of commercial web copy, and have have written tons of radio ads, print ads, etc. for a few decades, but that is a very different skill set. In some ways, it handicaps me here as I've spent years learning the wrong things. Since I've become admin, I've spent more time trying to improve my writing. I've started more articles in the last year than I did in my first 5 years here. I expect to work towards a couple more GAs and at least one FA, simply to be a better admin, to be able to empathize with content focused editors, which are the lifeblood of the place. I'm glad you mentioned HRL, as now that I've thought about it, it is a really good idea for a project for a number of reasons. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 05:39, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, man. Having been an editor for over six years, nearly 50,000 edits, as well as worked on at least 12 good articles, 11 featured articles and created 25 articles, I am an expert when it comes to GAs and FAs. But I agree the HRL topic sounds good enough for a project. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:44, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Excellent, I wasn't aware of your credentials, and I'm confident that we will work together well then. I'm not very pushy when editing, and prefer to work with people who are more knowledgeable than I am, giving me a chance to learn. I'm going to try to start digging up dirt on the building of it this weekend, which I think is the best place to start since it is the hardest to find but will provide context for what follows. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:51, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:26, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

WER

Interesting article in Salon today: Will Wikipedia replace the academic thesis? Posits that that students would be better served writing their own WP content, rather than slaving over papers and dissertations that no one will read. Possibly useful in the WER campaign? Just a thought... DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 13:22, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

• Actually, User:Drmies is likely a good person to ask that question to. I think his work here has helped in his career and he does a lot of outreach to professors and such. He is probably more of an expert on this than most people realize. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:54, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Channel 4 programming

Hey Dennis, I ran across something strange today, but I don't know the board to post it on, and I don't want to be "that guy." You seem like a nice helpful fellow...could you take a moment to look at Channel 4 programming. I am getting these weird red outlines around any uncited information (it's always followed by a "citation needed" tag. The code is {{cn-span|text=}}so this is what it looks like on the page. Is this something new we're doing that I didn't hear about? I don't actually think it is a bad idea to signal (single?) out uncited info, but this is weird. Thanks! Ditch ∝ 19:35, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Nevermind. I found an explanation at Template:Citation needed. I suppose I'll take this opportunity to learn more about templates and how they work; a knowledge that is lacking from my wiki-folio. Sorry to bother. Ditch ∝ 20:52, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Glad you found the answer, because I wasn't sure. It doesn't sound right, but I don't mess with templates much. There is a whole crowd of people that do nothing but templates (same with Categories), and I usually defer to them as that will insure consistency. Above all, consistency is what matters, so the encyclopedia looks the same no matter what topic you search, but I'm just not sure here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:55, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Some cookies!

	Here's a plate full of cookies to share!
	Hi Dennis Brown/Archive 20, here are some delicious cookies to help brighten your day! However, there are too many cookies here for one person to eat all at once, so please share these cookies with at least two other editors by copying {{subst:Sharethecookies}} to their talk pages. Enjoy! AutomaticStrikeout (T • C • AAPT) 15:13, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks ASO. Right about now, some cookies sound good. Think I'm going to take a day off and work on that High Rock Lake article a friend and I are chatting about above. Work is so hectic, I probably should avoid jumping into too many disputes around here. I don't want to make a bad situation worse. Hope things are going well with you. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:57, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

• Well, I've got several things I'm working on right now. I wrote one essay and I'm thinking of doing a related one. I've also got another essay under construction and another project that I started is facing deletion. Last night, I started up this "sharethecookies" thing, which I hope will grow into something that reaches a lot of editors. So, I don't if things are going well, but they are interesting anyway. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C • AAPT) 17:38, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

A belated compliment

Dennis, I stopped paying attention to the ANI on Kwamikagami and Lake Michigan-Huron just before you got involved; but I happened to go back to it and noticed someone gave you flak for closing against consensus. I'd just like to tell you that you handled that dispute really well. Since then, the editors involved have worked well together and Lake Michigan–Huron is now a B-class article. RockMagnetist (talk) 17:58, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

• There are a couple of admin who still hold a grudge, but you can't please everyone. That is the only time I have closed a discussion against such a clear consensus, and not something I expect to do often. Then as now, I think it was the right choice. Kwami is a good guy, even if he bumps heads from time to time. Actually, most of your really talented people (editors, musicians, actors, etc.) will frustrate people from time to time, it seems to be a package deal. The price of excellence. I hadn't seen it was raised to a B article, but I'm very glad to see it improve so much. Thank you for taking the time to come here an update me, I really appreciate that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:49, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

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SPI involving Rollosmokes

Since you blocked Rollo's last sock, User:DreamMcQueen, I thought you'd want to be aware of this current SPI, possibly involving Rollo. I am notifying you as the SPI clerk is asking for admin assistance. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 21:13, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

• Looks like User:Courcelles peeked in and did a CU on him to boot, so I'm not needed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:57, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Personal page protection/block request

Hello, Dennis, I noticed that you're on Wikibreak and I apologize for bothering you, but I have a personal request which you may help me with... I am leaving Wikipedia and would really like my account to be either blocked (permanently - I have no intention returning again for multiple reasons, mostly because of being tired of people greatly abusing WP:SOURCE instead of spending 5 minutes themselves to find and add in all of the necessary references to an article, partially because of personal physical health issue) or fully protected (at least the user page and the "Talk" page). Since I will be leaving, I will not be able to "clean it up" from harassment/vandalism such as this and this or whatever other vandalism there might be, so some kind of permanent block/protection would be really appreciated... I've submitted the request to WP:RFP but I doubt that anything useful will come from it :-/ Rndomuser (talk) 00:36, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

• I can possibly do any one of the above, but blocking is a very permanent thing, so I won't until I have discussed it with you and I'm convinced you understand all the ramifications, and that this is what you really want. I recommend you email me and we discuss this in private over the next day or two. I won't release the content of the discussion to anyone, and this way you can talk freely, and we can discuss your options freely. I hate to see any editor leave, but I do respect that there are times when it is appropriate or best for that person. Before I would do anything, I would want to have a better understanding, in as far as you are willing to explain, so I can at least offer some guidance and options. I am busy, but I will gladly take the time to assist you fully in this. You can use the "email this user" function here at Wikipedia to contact me. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:44, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I'd rather not engage into long discussions (even if they are completely private) right now... If you're unwilling to put a permanent account block - could you at least apply a full page protection to the "Talk" and User pages? That would be also fine, at least until I might have time to e-mail you in some time in future. Rndomuser (talk) 00:54, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Full protection is potentially problematic, particularly for the talk page, so I will need to research the policy on that in the morning to make sure I'm not exceeding my authority in doing that. I respect your desire to avoid a long conversation, but ethically, I can't block without it. Instead, we will look at putting the maximum amount of protection that policy will allow on those two pages. I will follow up. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:09, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

@Rndomuser, if you'd like to block yourself, why don't you just use the WikiBreak Enforcer? Otherwise, see Category:Wikipedia administrators willing to consider placing self-requested blocks. ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:20, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Um, if you look at that list, I'm one of those admin willing to consider self-blocks ;) My criteria is at User:Dennis Brown/Blockme I assumed that is why he is here. All of them have the same basic criteria, needing to discuss it first. I think his main concern is making sure no one vandalizes his pages, which is what I will research in the morning, to make sure I get it right and provide the highest level of protection that policy allows. It is just an unusual (but valid) request and I expect to have it complete well before lunch tomorrow. I've already warned the last person who vandalized his page, and they have blanked their own talk page, indicating they have read it. I have already watchlisted his page as well. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER

Yeap, that's why I contacted Dennis ;-) And "full block" request was not because I can't prevent myself from returning to Wiki (I actually can... unlike one of the poor souls who have recently attempted to do so by scrambling the password ;-))... In any case, full protection or not - thanks for your efforts! Also, I've sent you an e-mail, Dennis - it's not really about a "block request" (you shouldn't treat it as such) but more of a general explanation for my reasons. If you have time - you should probably read it ;-) Rndomuser (talk) 02:34, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, well I feel kinda silly. I had never read the list, I just knew it existed. @Rndomuser, I also watchlisted your talk page when I commented here yesterday. Good luck, in whatever future endeavors you decide to pursue. ~Adjwilley (talk) 17:17, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

No reason to feel silly. I think most people that are familiar with me wouldn't expect I would be on the list of "Admin willing to do self-blocks", but to me, it is a part of editor retention. Some people do need to get away from here, for their own health. Others, need someone to talk to before they do something rash. I need to check up on the policy on that, I've been mega-swamped today, just popped in to answer my talk page, so folks won't think I'm ignoring them. Think I will semi-protect for now, at least. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:52, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

• I've full protected the redirected user page, and semi-protected the user talk page. That is about as far as I can go at this time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:45, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Rndomuser (talk) 23:56, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

crap

Dennis. Try not to drink too much . And always remember to have a ```Buster Seven Talk 21:47, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

RfC/U

Having been involved in a recent RFC/U on Niemti regarding his behavior which you probably might not be aware of, I have a question regarding RFC/Us in general if they are closed. While I sincerely apologize for providing inconclusive evidence if I did so in the past or present and note that I have always moved on from previous disputes, I can understand that anyone can find other ways involving a dispute between a user over their conduct is not resolved after an RFC/U closes, but what do you think would be the next step if an RFC/U closes in general? Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:02, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

I remember the unban discussion here [4] where Ched was very, very bold in unblocking him. I opposed that unblock on purely technical grounds, although I supported the idea of finding a way to allow him back to try to contribute properly. He was technically socking when we unblocked him. Really, it was an improper unblock as far as the strict letter of policy is concerned (sorry Ched) but Ched has earned enough respect that the community let it slide via WP:IAR, essentially. I've done similar (see the discussion about Kwami above on this very page), so I understand the risk and the reasons he did what he did. Ched and I are similar in that respect, willing to extend a little more rope than average if a user has the potential to make a positive difference. In this case, I really don't know how I feel, I would have to explore deeper, although considering his recent blocks and very ugly past, I can see why others may think he has reached the end of his rope.

Realistically, if his behavior is problematic (and I haven't looked close enough to have an opinion) then a ban would be in order. Since Ched made the unblock but didn't participate in the RFC/U, I would recommend getting him in the loop. If a ban is needed, I think it would be stronger if it came from the admin that unblocked him to begin with. If it does go to WP:AN or WP:Arb, I would request (but not require) you notify me as I've been previously involved. That doesn't mean I will support a ban, but at that time I will take a long, hard look at the situation and participate in an honest way. User:JamesBWatson made the first block on this new account for socking, and I would recommend getting him in the loop. If you haven't crossed paths with him, he is truly a great guy, firm but fair, and easily make my top 10 admin list. He is out of pocket for a couple more days.

On an unrelated note, I've spent a couple of hours trying to source the very start of High Rock and have come up empty. That is a very important part of the story, however, so I haven't given up on that one aspect. I may jump over and dig up all the current Alcoa elements, which are somewhat easier to find, although we will have to be careful with NPOV since that is a very heated topic with HRL. I will likely start working on a rough draft of "facts" and sources soon, which is how I work, then we can weed out the trivial stuff. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

I completely understand the situation quite clearly now, and thanks. Also, just to clarify, being a constructive editor is not an excuse for uncivil behavior. And yes, I have known JamesBWatson very well, so I will notify him in this case, as well as other users who were previously involved in dealing with Niemti about the RFC/U. As for HRL, I've started a discussion on the talk page. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:02, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Just curious - what does "out of pocket" mean to an American? To a Brit it means "has spent some money" -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 01:28, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

By out of pocket, it means that the user is out for a couple of days, lad. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:31, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks - what a curious usage! -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 01:36, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, I don't think that's entirely widespread. Where I come from it tends to mean an individual purchasing something that they could have reasonably expected someone else to pay for (i.e. a teacher needs books, but the school won't provide them, so the teacher purchases them out of pocket). Sometimes the item might still be reimbursed (i.e. my dad needed softballs for the tournament so he purchased them out of pocket and sent the bill to the school). Ryan Vesey 01:55, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Yep, that's pretty much what it means here in the UK - someone has been hit by unexpected or unfair expenses. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:05, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

It means either here in the US, but "out of pocket expense" is the most common usage here, just as in the UK. I forget that using it as "will be away" isn't very widespread, even in the US. It is a curious expression. Perhaps a mangling of "out of reach" or "not within my grasp" is the basis, or maybe a billiards expression is the root, but I have no clue. It is just one of those things you grow up hearing and just use from time to time, like "Well, I swan" or "mayonnaise" as in "mayonnaise a lot of people here right now" ;-) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:05, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

My dad and grandfather tend to make up a lot of their own expressions, so I'll go around using them in the understanding that it is a regular phrase. Then I'll use it in the real world and people look at me like I'm crazy. A similar thing happens because of my little brother and sister. A number of years back, they watched Finding Nemo every day, but they always called it "Fish", so in my house we tended to refer to it as fish. A couple of times I'd end up referring to it as fish outside of the house. Ryan Vesey 15:59, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

I did a little research, and found I'm not the only one using the expression, although it is somewhat rare. It is mentioned in the book "Word Court" and there are several discussion to be found were people are trying to determine the source of the expression. Some tracing it to the 70s and 80s, some to the east coast (I learned it in Texas, however), but no one seeming to know the real source. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:33, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

In Texas, every expression has a slightly different meaning. I did a residency for 3 years in Houston about 100 years ago, and had to relearn English when I left! DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 19:41, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

I finally broke (mainly) the habit of "fixin' to", a Texasism that is ingrained at birth. I'm quite articulate in person, even if my redneck heritage shows through from time to time. Well, I'm fixin' to go work on these curing lamps, so will check back later ;-) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:43, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Aha, so this ain't your first rodeo; obviously you ex-caped without gettin' broke too bad. I do miss the kickers every now and again...but I'll never forget the look on the waitress's face when my wife (unaware as yet that Coke and sweet tea were her only drink options) ordered cranberry juice in a restaurant. I'm sure you can guess the response: "Hun, you ain't from around here, are you?" DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 14:05, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

SPI closed only to admins?

Hi Dennis - I had a SPI case, but the SPI board only says Admins can make ones - is this correct? Patriot1010 (talk) 16:48, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

That is incorrect. Where does it say that? I will fix it. --(ʞɿɐʇ) ɐuɐʞsǝp 16:49, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

• What deskana said. Only admin can block and take action in the "admin" section, and generally only clerks and checkusers should file the paperwork stuff (move/tag/etc), but anyone with a registered account can file an SPI. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:58, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Hunnic Empire

I noticed you protected the articles which had been disrupted by an IP sock. Could you protect Hunnic Empire which is being disrupted by the same sock? Thanks. --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:32, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

•  Done. Any more might need to go to WP:RFPP, so they don't sit around waiting for me to log in. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:37, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Ok. Thank you sir. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:32, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Socks and ANI

Okay, so you've closed it, and everyone seems happy apart from the fact that I'm still under suspicion of running socks, no retraction of the claim has been made, nor any apology. It may be a satisfactory result for the instigator of all this, but it's not for me. I want this to be fixed one way or another, if that's (a) retracting the statements and apologising or (b) running a checkuser and publishing the results to all concerned, either way I don't mind. But I don't want this matter closed as it stands. Right now the instigator has made unfounded accusation without evidence and left it hanging. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:24, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

• And I do understand. I've been chatting with him on his talk page some, I didn't just close and walk away. I already noted that an apology is due (twice, actually), but right now, him walking away for a day and then coming back to apologize would likely be the better solution because: 1. he is more likely to understand his mistake once the emotion has died down and 2. he is more likely to be sincere. As a bonus, it would mean a higher likelihood of you two finding common ground. I've had the same claims made against me, and I reacted the same way you are now, so again, I really do understand. If someone feels I've made a mistake, they know they can undo anything I've done with no hard feelings, but I think a breather is the right answer for the next 24 hours. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:35, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Cool. We'll see what happens in the next day or two. Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:37, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
    • Thank you for the trust. Ping me if you need to. I did give him an admonishment in the close, btw, and fortunately he is open to hearing my perspective on the matter. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:47, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
      • Ok. I'd like to keep this all on-wiki, part of various lengthy accusations implied certain off-wiki collaborations (as well as the sock puppetry), none of which is true, so I'd prefer to keep it visible to all. Thanks again. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:49, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
        • Completely understandable. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:21, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
        • I see has clarified the situation on his talk page and your. We seldom get the exact apology we were looking for, and there is still some antagonism between the two of you that I don't need to get involved in, I do think he was sincere in addressing the sockpuppeting issue. For what it is worth, as an SPI Clerk Trainee®, I find no evidence of sockpuppeting and likely would have closed the case with prejudice had it come to SPI, and think any other admin would conclude the same. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:54, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Sega Genesis

Quick question : Did you intend to full-protect this article indefinitely?

Honestly, I don't have any burning desire to edit the article, but it seems like an overkill to me, so I thought I'd bring it up in case it was an accident. APL (talk) 15:06, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

• My mistake, I meant to do semi protection for a month, but Twinkle hasn't worked for me to do protection in some time, and I haven't had the time to debug it. I see no one else is reporting problems, so I assume it is something wrong on my end. Fixed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:39, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Adoption

When you have time/are back, I was wondering if you would consider adopting me. I'm not the typical adoptee, as I have a few months' experience fighting vandalism and performing other maintenance tasks, however I feel I would benefit from reinforcing the policies and dealing with special situations. To be honest, I'm feeling a bit down after my failed RfA and feel a bit more practice and help from an experienced admin like you, who expressed trust in me, would help me get going again. If/when you have the time, please consider adopting me, or let me know if you know anybody else who would be able to help me. Many thanks, Vacation9 13:01, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

• I thought about this today, and twice started crafting a reply but had to stop due to work butting in, which is the problem right now. Sometimes I get a few days break, but my work is a major bear right now. It is a seasonal career, and this just so happens to be the peak of the busy time. I'm afraid I would do more harm than good right now, as there are sometimes days in a row where I'm barely able to even log in and answer basic questions. As for the RfA, be forewarned that being an admin is really overrated anyway. I waited over five years and sought it with some reluctance. By the time I did seek it, I was already pretty familiar with all the regular situations, which is the core of administrative work. The special circumstances aren't really a rule book, they are just deep understanding of the basics + experience + common sense, with a dash of compassion thrown in. This is why it takes time, and why most successful RfAs are from users who have been here at least two years. I don't use two years as a minute to support at RfA, just saying that history has shown that the odds are much more in your favor. Maybe one of my stalkers will chip in and help, and of course, I will when I can, but don't get in a hurry. I think you will find that you give up more than you gain when you become an admin, particularly in freedom. I will say that I appreciate the hard work you do, and think you have the right attitude and willingness to help others that are needed, it just takes time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:47, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I completely understand. To be honest, I'm bored of routine tasks around here, so I thought introduction to some more advanced areas would help with that, and help me get active again. Thank you for writing this, and I'll certainly take this to heart. Vacation9 21:38, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
    • The English Wikipedia admin flag is one of the hardest flags to get on any Wikimedia site. If you're looking for new things to try, other Wikimedia projects might be something of interest, and I'm sure there's areas of this very large site that you haven't put time into - I know there's a lot that I've never done here. --Rschen7754 22:44, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

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AN discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is "RfC proposal for community sanctions against Niemti". Thank you. I am notifying you per your request above. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:52, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

March 2013

This is your last warning. The next time you make personal attacks on other people, as you did at User talk:Drmies, you may be burned at the stake without further notice. Comment on content, not on fellow editors. It's hard to imagine a greater insult than wishing an Old Milwaukee on a fellow editor. Except maybe Bud Lite. NE Ent 12:31, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• I hated to take it so far, but in order to demonstrate that we don't favor admin over non-admin, I felt I needed to let Drmies serve as an example. I stand by my actions, consequences be damned. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:33, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Stand on Zanzibar

Dennis: Could you please take a look at the recent history of editing on this article, as well as the "Predictions" section on the talk page? Ding me for edit warring if you must, but I'm only trying to keep heavily fringe material out of the article. Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:18, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I'm not asking you to take sides in a content dispute, but to comment on the application of policies and guidelines such as BRD, FRINGE, RS and VANDALISM and, of course, EW. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:41, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• I've offered a way forward that explains the expectations for all articles. I'm not familiar with the subject matter, but how we deal with disputes is pretty clear. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks for giving this your attention. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:02, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Happy Easter

	Easter Eggs
	You have been given some Easter Eggs. Have a very Happy Easter! Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:41, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• Happy Easter, DB. ```Buster Seven Talk 01:30, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
• Although down here we're always in eastern, I know you don't, so Happy Eastern and enjoy the amazing climate :) — ΛΧΣ²¹ 05:33, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Your suspicion

You voiced a suspicion here. It appears to be confirmed -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:42, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for the pointer. I try to always assume good faith, and some "you aren't new here" editors are either clean starts or former IPs, I understand that. Then there are others, like this guy, that are obviously socks of someone. It is hard to describe how you know, it is just a gut feeling. There are several that I watch but never say anything until I see something to substantiate those gut feelings. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:43, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

grave dancing

[5] seems likely in poor taste IMO (re: User:R-41) Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:41, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• I agree. I've left a msg. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:51, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
  • He's removed it. I don't think he was intentionally trying to cause distress to anyone, that isn't his style. He's pretty active in editor retention, but we all err from time to time. I certainly do. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Had I known Collect was behind your request I may have declined. He has been sniffing my excrement for 4 years or more. I don't bother myself with him unless he shows up where I am working. Then I have to consider what is more important: dealing with Collect's dribble or continuing to talk and work with other editors. I detest him so much I usually just leave and go do something else in WikiLand. ```Buster Seven Talk 07:06, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Wow -- B7 does seem to be a quite good stalker, I guess. Dennis - I avoid B7 like the plague as a rule, and he seems not to follow the same rule. The fact is that R-41 is a staunch socialist who has been literally wiki-hounded a bunch of times now, and I suspect anyone who faced some of the posts he has faced would also quite lose temper - I find R-41 to be sincerely interested in improving articles, and is not one who goes around posting how nasty any editor is. My overlap with B7 is de minimis (12 articles total ever, or under 1/2 of 1% of articles I editted). Thanks for noting the odd post which I found to be beyond the pale. Collect (talk) 13:02, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

For the record, I am a friendly stalker of Dennis' page. Have been for quite some time. It would be impossible for me to be a friendly stalker at Collect's page...or to care anything about what he does. This litte episode comes down to Collect "snitching" on me. Why he chooses to snitch at your page, Dennis, rather than one of his Administrator cronies, might be ample evidence of who stalks who. I only deal w/ certain editors when nip at my heals. Usually a sharp kick will keep them away for months. ```Buster Seven Talk 20:51, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

• It isn't about who follows who, honestly, it was about R-41 who has indicated a real amount of distress from editing here. There is a small minority of people who this becomes a bad habit, and I mean that very literally. All squabbles aside, that is and was my concern. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:39, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Pandeism done, I think

Exhaustively overhauled; nothing left on the page except what's sourced to books and other publications where I personally verified and saw context. Took out a few of those, too, where seemingly unimportant or adding nothing to the whole. Won't satisfy everyone, as if anything ever does. Please review and opine on whether this fixes what was complained of. Please also merge in edit history of Talk:Pandeism/Pandeism- as you've been involved enough to see that lion's share of the whole history of my work on this page was done there, and merging in won't confuse overall edit history, but will preserve the record of my work, and make clear what cuts and trims were made, step by step. Thank you. LCS check (talk) 00:54, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

• I will check it out later for merging today in more detail after I've had coffee, so I don't mess anything up and there may be some buggering it causes that will have to be cleaned up. I expected that it would require major trimming and that it would take some people smarter than I am to do it. Pandeism is a lesser known philosophy, and as such, I figured sourcing would be a little scarce, but we are always better to strip an article down to the best sourced information then build it back. It looks like you have put a lot of effort in it, an amazing amount to be sure, and if no one else appreciates it, I certainly do and know that the reader is more likely to get a better learning experience from the efforts. Articles on religion and philosophy are always tricky, both from a technical standpoint, and obviously from the human standpoint as there are often people with differing ideas on what should and shouldn't be included, which is why we are best served by sticking close to the sources. Again, I need coffee, but at first glance it looks like a much better and more trustworthy article. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 09:06, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Merge was performed. Thanks for your kind review. LCS check (talk) 18:53, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Screw up

Hi Dennis (or passing lurker with admin bit), I screwed up a page move and wonder if you might consider cleaning up after me? I intended to move A Narrative of the Captivity and Restoration of Mrs. Mary Rowlandson (1682) to A Narrative of the Captivity and Restoration of Mrs. Mary Rowlandson but found it was a redirect page (to the author). Without thinking ahead, I replaced the redirect with the text from the original and then made the original a redirect (to new title) instead. Of course, too late I realised that the page history from the original is now not recorded on the new article. Is there a way to fix? Thanks in advance and sorry for adding to the workload. Keri (talk) 12:15, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Sorted - full history and article now at A Narrative of the Captivity and Restoration of Mrs. Mary Rowlandson, with A Narrative of the Captivity and Restoration of Mrs. Mary Rowlandson (1682) now a redirect. Yunshui 雲‍水 13:21, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your help Yunshui! Keri (talk) 14:17, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Yunshui, I always appreciate your stalking and helping the kind folks that stop by. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Neitmi !vote AN

Question - was your !vote on the last section in the WP:AN discussion on Neitmi sanctions an "Oppose" to both an interaction ban and civility parole, or just civility parole? I'm trying to close as accurately as possible.

Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:54, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

• I would always be against anything that is remotely affiliated with a civility patrol. As a community, we can't even agree on what "civility" means, no less agree to patrolling it. Something needs to be done in this case, but civility patrols do not work and only cause more problems. I'm open to any other solution, although my comment wasn't a vote as much as participating in the discussion. Good luck closing, I don't envy you. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:10, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

User talk:Sir Gawain McGarson

Hi Dennis, I don't know if this is actually something you need to pay attention to, but since you were the blocking admin, and it's been so long that I doubt the talk page is still on your watchlist, I figured I should let you know that he's flirting in his way with the idea of trying to come back.  davidiad { t } 22:19, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

• After briefly reading his appeal, I am comfortable leaving the decision in the hands of an uninvolved admin, and I will happily live with whatever action they determine is appropriate. Thank you for the pointer. They haven't actually done a proper unblock request, perhaps not knowing how, so if any passing admin sees this notice, perhaps they can help him. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:31, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

In general, I think editors should feel free to use their talk pages at times to blow off steam, whether that results in silliness or saying stuff that would be inappropriate or uncivil on any other page. But dumping toxins into the environment (as in, attacking editors by name) is another matter. I'm not sure Wikipedia needs to provide a platform for |this. Cynwolfe (talk) 11:58, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I googled it, and he has printed a version of this on Wikipediocracy as well. Obviously, it is a personal attack against me, but I'm not going to dignify it with an overreaction. If someone wants to blank it or remove talk page, it doesn't really matter to me, I'm not asking them to or it would likely already be done. Honestly, I'm an old fart who is pretty comfortable in his own skin, so personal attacks like this really do not affect me. I'm not defined by the words of a sockpuppet I've previously blocked. As to whether or not it affects the rest of the encyclopedia, I would let someone else uninvolved determine that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:00, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I doubt many people watch his page. In another instance, a disgruntled former editor left a criticism of Wikipedia editors in general on his user page; users have deleted it a couple of times, but I reverted because I feel he should have his say. He doesn't attack individuals in describing his bad experiences, and he isn't just posturing as some kind of martyr. It's authentic indignation. Since this editor, however, is all about self-dramatization and getting attention, you're no doubt right that ignoring it is best. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:30, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

No, but 278 people watch mine [6], including many admin, and I invite them to look and leave it to their discretion on how to proceed. I agree with you that someone expressing their frustration about Wikipedia on their talk page should be allowed to do so. We should never suppress honest and reasonable criticisms of Wikipedia, even if it is harsh. Personal attacks are a different matter, however. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Only 278? You've got a way to go yet.[7] What amuses me is that this page has 45 watchers, Malleus Fatuorum 16:47, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Make that 46 — Ched :  ?  17:56, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

You're watching the wrong page, should be Malleus Fatuorum, not Malleus Fatuarum. But don't tell the others. Malleus Fatuorum 18:11, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, I'm certainly no Malleus. God broke the mold when he made you, friend. I will leave it to others to determine if he did so before or after creating you ;-) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure it'll be no surprise to you to learn that I don't believe in the idea of God, any more than I do AGF. Both require you to shut down your brain before proceeding. Malleus Fatuorum 20:45, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I disagree on both those points, but that's just IMO. — Ched :  ?  20:48, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

As usual, I'm between the two of you, being a deist. Plus, I'm always hopeful when it comes to others. Being surrounded by Christians in the real world, I'm just used to using the language. Not to deceive anyone, as I am gentle but outspoken in my philosophy, but as to not always call attention to the differences between us. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:56, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I describe myself as an antitheist, but I'm no evangelist for logical positivism. I leave evangelism to the American kids who periodically knock on the door asking if I believe in Christ. My wife's usual put down, if they're unlikely enough to find her answering the door, goes something like "When you've been civilised for as long as we have, come back and ask me again". I can understand why early humans developed the idea of a god, but in these days of self-assembling molecules the idea seems faintly absurd to me. Malleus Fatuorum 21:11, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Deistic thought makes sense to me, the idea that we are all god dust. I never saw the point of an all knowing god creating a universe if he already knew what the outcome of every event was. What is the point? And where is free will? But the idea that god would want to experience everything possible without omniscience makes sense to me, we are like echos, or memories to a larger non-personal god. Everything had to come from somewhere ("nothing is created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another"), so why not deism? It is human nature to ascribe to the supernatural that which we do not understand, but I'm betting those are natural processes we are just yet to understand. After all, we don't really understand gravity or electricity, even if we can measure or harness them. We have no idea what they really are. Yet. But I can't claim to know any more than anyone else, that is just what makes sense to me, so I'm certainly not in a position to judge anyone else's philosophy. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:03, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I just don't see the need for a god. To me, "god" is synonymous with "something I don't understand". And of course from a socio-political viewpoint it's very convenient to promote a world view that encourages sacrifice in this life with the promise of rewards in the next. Should there actually be a next of course. I sometimes wonder where all those virgins who are supposed to welcome Islamic martyrs are coming from, and whether female martyrs are offered the same deal. Malleus Fatuorum 22:21, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

If karma holds true, the 72 virgins will all be men, wearing various homemade Star Trek costumes. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:49, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

In the immortal words (as it were) of Woody Allen, "If God exists, I hope he has a good excuse." DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 22:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Nice :) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:49, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

He also said, "To you, I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition." DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 02:39, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

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If you have the time...

you've been mentioned at ANI - see WP:ANI#User:Wondering55. --Rschen7754 09:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for the pointer. I've responded there. I am not sure what the best course of action would be in this particular case, unfortunately. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:50, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I see you're online and I'm going to send you an email in a few minutes. --Rschen7754 22:25, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Reading now. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:30, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

SPI (now closed)

I see that Orlady has fixed the userpage. And thank you for the clarification. SPI something I know very little about, so I figured a notice would do the trick. – S. Rich (talk) 22:34, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

• I appreciate the way you handled that on the user's page. Struck the right parts, explained the action, made a kind gesture in your words. Thank you, that was exactly the right way to deal with that, giving the benefit of the doubt and moving on. Good show. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:44, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
  • You're quite welcome. And thank you so very much for the compliments. – S. Rich (talk) 23:02, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Invitation to WikiProject Breakfast

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April 2013

I'm writing to you in regards to my warnings to Drmies in regards to Binsar Wildlife Sanctuary. The thing is, all of the other sources on the page are a site that look like this (right):

File:Link..JPG

link,

How is that not spam? How is that okay and a non-commercialized website not? Please explain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MNdude11 (talk • contribs) 21:57, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I haven't looked at all the sources, but from experience (internet marketing is what I do) when you see a website like that, it means the original website died, and someone is now squatting on the domain name. Archive.com is a good way to find the old material (and why we have accessdate info on sources). Also note, the fact that another article is screwed up isn't a reason to not fix sources in that one. The simple fact is, there are many more people adding bad stuff to Wikipedia than there are trying to fix it. WP:OTHERSTUFF covers that.

Most importantly is throwing a warning on Drmies page because you were pissed off at him. This is just silly. He hadn't even edited that article. You did it to prove a point, but honestly, it only made you look petty. I don't say that to be mean, it isn't my nature to try to hurt someone's feelings, but it is the truth. In the end, you were basically ignored, and nothing of value came of the exchange.

We have some exceptional authors at Wikipedia, truly world class, and Drmies is one of them. He makes mistakes, but they are rare and he is the first to admit when he makes a mistake, and the first to explain to someone if they simply politely ask. Even if you don't agree, you will learn something if you allow yourself.

You are new here, and if you want to be here a long time, you need to stop taking things personally, doing tit for tat warnings on experienced users talk pages, and don't just look at Wikipedia as a way to teach the world what you know, but as a way to learn yourself.

Of course, you are free to ignore my advice, I won't take it personally. I just know that getting along with others, slowing down and not being too quick to judge others, this is how you actually enjoy being a part of Wikipedia. So, my advice is to just ask him, politely. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:32, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

USS Scorpion (SSN-589)

Hello Denis, I know you are cuurently busy, but could I please ask you to look at the edits to the above article and in particular to Brandywines Talk page? I have tried to help and to be constructive, but appear to be getting abuse. Would be glad of your opinion/action. Many thanks, David, David J Johnson (talk) 23:35, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

• I've left a rather long welcome and tip sheet. I think everyone has been a little more gruff than is needed, and that it probably needs to move to the talk page of the article and not his personal talk page, but I am betting that this can be worked out. Often with new users, they have the best of intentions and some good information, but they simply lack the experience to fully understand the difference between a general purpose website and an actual encyclopedia, where we only only want to summarize verified facts. The solution is often a little patience and some education. Hopefully, he will be receptive and you all can work on that article, which really does have some verification issues. That is a common problem with military articles, almost all the citations will be in books, not in web sources, so it takes a lot more time to properly cite. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:26, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Dennis, Many thanks for your help and advice. Best regards, David, David J Johnson (talk) 08:31, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

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Congratulations

Hi Dennis Brown! You're nomination, Anna, for the Editor of The Week has just been awarded. Congratulations! The Wikimon (talk) 13:01, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

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AN

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. The thread is Unblocking Colton Cosmic. Yunshui 雲‍水 18:33, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Khwarazmian dynasty

I saw what happened in the Khwarazmian dynasty article, but may i ask when it's going to be unprotected again so other people can edit it?--HistoryofIran (talk) 12:56, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

• Actually, I should have just semi-protected it for registered users only. I've changed it to that now, for a month. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:22, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Request

Hi Dennis. Not sure if we've formally met, but I certainly know your name around town. Nice to finally have this opportunity. I've been looking at your User:Dennis Brown/RfA page and would like to submit my name forward as someone who would like you to review. I have read through you recommendations of criteria an editor should meet prior to requesting and I do fall short of your 200 edits per month in 12 of the 18 previous months. That said, I am hopeful that you still consider my request. I am available for any preliminary questions you would like to ask me before making a decision. If you are busy or would like to decline, I fully understand. Thanks for your time, Mkdw^talk 06:24, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

• Right now, I'm kind of pulling back from admin reviews as my time is short (even today, Saturday, I'm working all day) and they require a great deal of time to do properly. I don't want to do a half way job, so I would have to decline right now. Sorry.

• No problem Dennis. Thanks for considering it. Mkdw^talk 04:26, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

More to Revdel

The silk road has many embedded links to the URL in its history. A lot, even spaced so as to not catch the filter. As this one shows. [8] Including other fake and false ones as seen here. [9] It probably isn't recommended, but is it possible to REVDEL them all or the entire thing? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:39, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

• RevDel isn't a tool I use often enough to be expert at, so I am not sure what the right answer is here. Might need an Oversighter or admin who does a lot of RevDel so we don't break anything. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:57, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

IRC?

Are you able to go on IRC for a few minutes for some questions unrelated to Wikipedia? Ryan Vesey 19:04, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar
	Thanks man. That dude is persistent! Drmies (talk) 17:11, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

No problem, friend. And thanks for the sparkly, I've not been around to earn many of these lately. Stored safely in the Ronco Barnstar Vault. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:14, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

• You're a good man, Dennis Brown. I hope you have a great week. Drmies (talk) 17:18, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	For keeping the talk page at Talk:2013 Boston Marathon bombings sensible, and answering questions there of the new users. Thankyou! Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (Message me) 23:20, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! It is always nice to hear from someone I remember from way in the day and looked up to. I'm quite flattered by your kindness here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:22, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Came here to pass along similar congratulations, but Chase me... has already said it better. Thanks, Dennis. --j⚛e decker^talk 00:38, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Joe. I'm out for the evening. I had to cancel my plans to be here tonight, but figured I might actually be of use on that talk page tonight. Good luck, and thank you for helping there as well, friend. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:01, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Seconded, or thirded or something. Anyway, nice work keeping everything on track under some pretty awful circumstances. Stalwart111 04:07, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

As is usual, the wikipedia talk page is a wonderful source for an ever-changing snapshot of an on-going event. Your monitoring of the many conversations and editors is a credit to the Administrative Corps. Preventing threads from drifting off into the cornfields is not an easy task. Your (as well as other editors) leadership is commendable. ```Buster Seven Talk 05:11, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of a company page

Hello,

Our company's page, Passat Ltd., has been deleted and we would like to revert this decision, if possible.

I believe that our company is notable. For instance, the laser that we made has been sent to Mars and used to discover water there (Phoenix Martian Mission: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(spacecraft)#Robotic_arm_and_camera). We will also participate in OSIRIS mission: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSIRIS-REx. We are a small company and there might not be enough references about us online but we could provide some offline references as well.

Please let us know what is required in order to get our page reinstated?

Thank you, Vladimir Yavelsky 116D Viceroy Rd. Unit 1-4 Concord, Ontario L4K 2M4, Canada tel: 905-695-1088 fax: 888-635-0657 email: vlad@passatltd.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Passatltd (talk • contribs) 21:07, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

• Couple of problems here. First, the article was deleted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Passat Ltd. because it was created by a serial problem child, User:CastleKing1440, who has created tons of accounts for the purpose of evading the policies here. Next, your user name is a violation of policy. We do NOT allow companies to have accounts, only individuals, and it looks like your username is being used as a company account. One person per account, no sharing (see WP:User name). This is the only way we can hold persons accountable for their actions. The person who wrote the previous article owns the copyright, and we don't generally publish articles by persons who have been blocked or banned from editing (allowing them to only encourages them to continue violation our WP:sockpuppet policy), so I can't restore the article in any shape or form. What I suggest is that you first abandon that account, get an individual account that will be limited to one person's use (others can create their own accounts, that is fine) and begin the article at WP:AFC. The fact that you are a small company with few sources is going to make it difficult to pass the criteria, however. Please note, only sources that quality as reliable sources (per WP:Reliable sources should be used. Once the article is up to criteria, someone will happily move it to main space. Without boring you with details, there are very good reasons we have these steps, as we are flooded with lots of problem articles and problem users, so we ask everyone to comply with the same rules. As for calling or emailing, I prefer to handle this issue here at Wikipedia, as it is a purely Wikipedia issue. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:30, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)I'm going to provide different advice. I suggest you just leave it alone and let it remain deleted. If you paid an editor to write the article, ask for a refund. As a PR person, it bothers me when editors string someone like you along by implying that there is any way to create an article about an organization that does not meet Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion. If you follow Brown's advice above by creating a new account and going through AfC, you will invest many hours just to be rejected over and over, because Wikipedia just doesn't want an article on this topic, which is not famous enough. Just leave it - it's a waste of everybody's time and providing advice to someone to keep trying when it's doomed to fail is just bad advice.

Hopefully I'm not being a jerk Brown, but just saying ;-) CorporateM (Talk) 14:17, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Not at all, I see some wisdom. I have a habit of offering hope, and sometimes there is no hope. This may likely be one of those cases. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:11, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

A note about Talk:2013 Boston Marathon bombings

It is now early morning US time and the comment rate seems to be slowing somewhat. I've tried to keep up with the pace by archiving manually through the evening/night (the advantage of being on Australian time). I've tried to keep the page to around 50 threads, max. This has meant archiving a couple of threads that were mostly (but perhaps not entirely) resolved. But the alternate was to accumulate threads (there are 76 between the talk page and Archive 1 and counting) which would have been impossible to navigate, especially for mobile users. I've also closed/archived some threads to which I contributed - your stalkers should feel free to trout away if they are concerned but I saw no other option. Anyway, thought I'd note all that here for transparency/clarity and for the sake of some admin oversight. Stalwart111 07:42, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

• Its a tough thing. I think if it is really still unresolved, we err to keep and understand it might not be readable with a smart phone for a day. Someone was kind enough to setup a bot with a 24 hours archive, which will help. Considering the event, I'm shocked we haven't had more problems there. I've only had to block one IP who was impersonating a registered user, and spewing hate. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:48, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

• Yeah, fair enough. I tried hard not to archive anything that anyone had contributed to within the previous couple of hours at least. Hopefully the bot can cope with the pace from now on. And yeah, I was surprised by the relative lack of vandalism/disruption - I thought there would be more. Anyway, thanks for you help and advice. Stalwart111 11:10, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

• Hope I didn't come across grumpy there, I hadn't had any coffee yet, came here first, so wasn't meaning to come across as critical. It is just damn tough to find a balance there. Even if we leave discussions, half the people don't bother to read stuff (as the recent posts prove) and they just jump in and drop off their message without thinking that someone else has already discussed the exact same thing. Human nature I expect. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:10, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

• No, not at all. And given what has happened, I wouldn't expect my US colleagues to be all sunshine and rainbows anyway. Will be tough to find a balance even in 6 months, I imagine. Anyway, enjoy that coffee and keep up the good work! Stalwart111 12:47, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

• After 9/11 (and the Oklahoma City Bombing, etc.) I think most of my fellow Americans are better equipped to put this in perspective. Even the stock market futures are up right now. It sucks, but I don't think it will cause much modification in our behavior, collectively. We've always known that stuff like this is going to happen. While it is a terrible event, I'm gratified that it wasn't worse than it was. Oddly, the fact that this happened during the marathon insured there would be lots of first responders on the scene, which may have made a difference in the death toll. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

• I'm sure that's true - the whole area was full of high-vis and uniforms. Some media reports talked about surgery/triage at the scene. I'm sure it saved lives. Stalwart111 13:08, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure on-the scene meds did their best but they were only prepared for spains/exhaustion/running related etc. ```Buster Seven Talk 16:02, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Considering the number of limbs that were separated, I would imagine that just the act of stopping people from bleeding out was enough to save several lives. It wasn't the gear that made the difference as much as having so many people with solid, basic skills there. They set up a triage in the tents there, prioritized, etc. It would have been very different if not for them. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:38, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Your input

Hi Dennis. I've been working on an essay How WP:COI would read if I wrote it. It's intended to stay in user-space permanently, being that we have way too many forks already and I've lost any hope at improving WP:COI, but I figured I needed something more useful to link people to than anything that exists. If you have time, I would love any input you may have. CorporateM (Talk) 14:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

• I've got to go pick up a dump truck load of riprap for landscaping, but will try to look at it later today. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:18, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	Thanks for keeping an eye on the Boston Marathon bombings article. It's getting a ton of hits, and I'm glad that diligent editors are there to answer questions and maintain quality. – Quadell (talk) 17:43, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you for the kindness, I do appreciate each and every barnstar I receive, and appreciate the thought that goes into them. I store the originals in my Barnstar Vault for safe keeping. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:03, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Hi Dennis. I know you said you were busy with work so I hope this doesn't find you at a bad time. :) I wanted to notify you that I continued the discussion on an AN/I that you were involved in.[10] Thanks for your assistance! Justiciero1811 (talk) 21:12, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for the heads up. I'm just as confused now as before, but hopefully things will just work out, or can be settled at WP:DRN, if needed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:26, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Boston Marathon bombings

If I'm slow to answer here, it is because I'm trying to patrol the talk page on this article (not editing the actual article, so I can clerk the talk page a bit). If anyone calm, cool and collected would like to help, it would be appreciated. Lots of new users all excited about adding material, and much of that isn't within policy, so it take some patience to explain this to them. If you can calmly do this, please consider helping out there. Thanks in advance. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:02, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia is hopeless at handling that sort of situation, and anyone who tries to intervene ends up being threatened with a 3RR report. You just have to wait until the whole thing fizzles out and then fix what you can. Malleus Fatuorum 01:46, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

You are right if you are talking about making it a good article. As I've explained to others on that talk page, I will not be enforcing 3RR myself as long as the edits are in good faith and not sequential warring. I think the other admin there understand that as well. Really, all I can do is help new, excited users understand why some edits aren't proper, and help settle some disputes. This is why I don't mind staying off the actual article page. We do have a chance to gain new editors who were brought here solely because of this story, or we could lose editors if they are pounded unfairly and blocked for trying to do the right thing by removing questionable material. To me, this is the core of what adminship is supposed to be, just mopping up, help educate people, and blocking the occasional warrior. I've only had to block one person so far, so I'm pretty happy that it has gone fairly smooth. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:53, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Teamwork Barnstar
	If we had a Tireless Contributor Teamwork barnstar, I would award that to you, but I am not that technically inclined, so you'll have to settle for one that doesn't spin. In any case, you have been terrific on Talk:Boston Marathon bombings and I don't know what the rest of us monitoring would do without you. Thank you very much. Go Phightins! 02:10, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you GP, I appreciate the kind words. I appreciate your work there as well. Having calm and sane people just participating and explaining "why" in valid and concise ways really makes it much easier to keep the page flowing constructively, and you're always a great contributor in that. As I explained above, these articles bring us lots of new editors, and how we treat them can make a big difference, particularly when they want to put things in that don't fit with policy. Thanks again :) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:16, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

That's true regarding new contributors. I hadn't really thought about that, but you would be correct, good sir. Go Phightins! 02:18, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

It could be worse

For all the problems that occur here, at least we're not the Chechen Wikipedia, where every administrator and bureaucrat just had their tools removed. Ryan Vesey 14:54, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Blimey. Talk about en masse. Basket _Feudalist 15:02, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Holy cow. That is a very small wiki, and I imagine the smaller the wiki, the larger the chances are that this can happen. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:15, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, and it took at least a month before the stewards finally did something about it. There were admins deleting their own rights removal requests and blocking the filers with no talk page access. --Rschen7754 04:14, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, there can be one thing in mind for some of those Wikipedias, especially those that have problematic issues: corruption. Not to mention that on an irrelevant note, I have some very bad news: Dreadstar, a good editor and administrator, has retired over a certain recent issue involving Will Beback's appeal at BASC and it appears that he was driven off of Wikipedia by an abusive editor who has been involved in the WBB appeal. Very sad news for the project... Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 04:29, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Discussion at Template talk:Bullying#This reversion

You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:Bullying#This reversion. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:29, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

• I will observe, but I think it is going pretty well without me and not sure I can add any more to the discussion. This appears to be a good example of how to have a discussion, actually. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:45, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Okay, thanks. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:47, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Also, I really hate to ask, but can you please take a look at Talk:Abuse#Problems as well? Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 15:55, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Re-protect Boston Marathon bombings?

Hey, Dennis, if you're around, can you look into re-protecting this page for a while? We're getting an IP-hopper inserting utterly unsourced claims about North Korea being behind it (yet disguised with a citation to an article that doesn't even mention North Korea), as well as some other things. Drmies and I both feel too involved at this point (we've been editing the article in an editorial capacity over an issue about one of the victims' name), so if you're still uninvolved yourself, take a look. If not, though, or if you're not around, no biggie: I'll just make a request at RFPP. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:32, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

• I can't. The problem is that User:Zzuuzz unprotected it at WP:RFPP. He didn't attempt to discuss with me or any of the other admin who were involved in protecting it the first time, and no one notified any of us of the RFPP discussion. I'm not particularly thrilled with that fact alone. If I go back and re-reprotect, it will look like wheel warring. I agree that it should be protected, and I provided links with previous cases, etc. when I explained it on the talk page. You need to ask Zzuuzz, who has said he will be baby sitting the article today when he unprotected it [11], although I haven't seen any edits by him on the talk page. Or take it to WP:AN. History has been that they will likely support a longer amount of semi-protection. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:50, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

• Drmies made a post on ANI asking for general assistance, so I think that will suffice. That wheel-warring thing's a bear, ain't it? :/ Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:53, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
• (talk page stalker) I've just given it a 12-hour semi, without knowing there was any possible dispute over protection - so I don't think that can be regarded as wheel-warring. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:55, 17 April 2013 (UTC) (I'll go leave a message for Zzuuzz too -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:57, 17 April 2013 (UTC))

• (edit conflict)I don't mind someone reversing me, but this wasn't done properly. He should have at least notified me with a reason afterwards. This isn't 2005 anymore, we usually demand a greater degree of admin cooperation than we did back then. Same with SilkTork moving the page, which I might agree with his logic, but not the way he unilaterally did it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:56, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks, Boing. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:59, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

• I've started a proposal for two weeks of semi there, that should fix any reversions if it reaches consensus. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:00, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

• Ridiculous. There has been very little vandalism since the page was unprotected. Now, as soon as one vandal does pop up, you want to protect the page for two weeks. You're admins, for goodness' sake. Spend half an hour blocking the ip 'till he goes away and keep the article open for all to edit. That's what you're supposed to do. 80.174.78.102 (talk) 16:11, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

• Don't be mad at us, be mad at the IPs that are going in and screwing it up for the rest of the IPs. I don't want to see it protected any longer than it needs to be, and I'm actively on the talk page (along with other experienced editors) to help sort edit requests, so it isn't like we are wanting to protect it and waltz away. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:14, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

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I'd like your opinion

Regarding the Boston Marathon bombings article, is there a good reason not to include a particularly graphic image. One in particular has been cited numerous times in wp:rs as "iconic", and other sources mention the Associated Press in critical commentary for their editorial decision to publish the image. My76Strat (talk) 12:02, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

• I probably need more info, you didn't link a discussion or image, but will do the best to answer. As far as the image being graphic, that isn't a particular problem if the image is clearly within the scope of the article and conveys information that words can't (ie: it isn't gratuitous in nature). That can be a gray area, so more than one opinion is needed, depending on the content. If it isn't a Free image, then I would say not to include since there are plenty of Free images available. If it is a free-license photo and you think there might be controversy, then a discussion on the talk page is best. The problem now is too many images, so it is better to get consensus before adding yet more. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:36, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

  Thank you for sharing that insight. I tend to agree with your counsel in whole. There's no discussion because I wanted your opinion first. Most sources cropped the image in this fashion [12] The un-cropped version is rather dramatic [13] Because it is mentioned, and described in numerous sources, I think a valid fair use rationale is possible. I am considering starting a discussion but am still meditating on the pros and cons myself. Thanks for your help. My76Strat (talk) 13:03, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

  I'm not sure what the end result of that discussion on Fair Use would be, but if the actual photo itself has gotten a lot of mention, and not just use, then I agree it may be worth discussing with the community and that you would at least have a rational basis for inclusion. The image is rather graphic, but I don't think it is gratuitously so, and arguably provides information that prose can't. I'm not sure which side of the argument I would fall on, and would have to think carefully on it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:12, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I have a little list ...

Did I really oppose you at RfA?[14] You're obviously much more forgiving than I am. I have a list of all those who opposed me, and I never miss an opportunity to get my own back on every single one of the bastards. Malleus Fatuorum 17:55, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

If I didn't read certain talk pages once in a while, I'd never know anything. You ran for admin twice. At least you've curbed your masochistic tendencies in the last five years. I got a kick out of reading your pithy responses to some of the opposes in your second RfA.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:16, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I was naive enough in those days to believe that RfA was an offer to help. It was only later I came to understand that it was really just a ritualised hazing, the equivalent of standing in the stocks for a week having everyone chuck rotting fruit at you. Malleus Fatuorum 18:47, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

You certainly did oppose, friend :-) [15]. It was an ugly RfA, but not by your doing. A large part of the reason that I went out of my way to complete this task in a way that obviously in good faith was because of your !vote: "It's ridiculous to promote someone on the basis of an unenforceable promise to stay away from one area or another for some vague period of time." In your case, the vote was serious, non-personal, and a valid concern. I took the CSD mentoring serious, not to prove you wrong, but to prove to the community that I took their concerns seriously. You just got to set the bar.

Being a good admin is a goal, not a given, and soon as you stop trying to be one, you aren't. That is why I think demeanor is more important than GAs for admin. Of course, you have to have respect and understanding for the prolific content creator, but I don't think it requires that you are one. This is why I swallowed my pride and did the CSD mentoring as well. You were right, it was unenforceable and I could have blown it off without much being said, but then I would have become the very thing I detested, the arrogant admin that thinks he is right by virtue of having the bit. And I still tread very lightly around CSDs to this day. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:43, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I also opposed, I think over concerns with CSD tagging. I've often regretted that since, as I think you're generally a great admin. Maybe sometimes we set our sights too high in RfA but so much of it is about trust. I'm sorry anyway. I trust you now and I was in retrospect wrong to oppose you. --John (talk) 19:57, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

No need to apologize, but I appreciate the thought and the kind words. Like Malleus's, your vote was sincere, that is all I could have asked. Honestly, I think the process made me a better Wikipedian, and dare I say, a better person. I'm fast approaching 50 years old, but the RfA process and the last year have made me much more thoughtful in my actions, cautious in my criticisms, and more willing to boldly go out on a limb when I feel it is the right thing to do. I have no regrets and no hard feelings towards anyone. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:04, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Time goes much faster once you're past 50 ;-) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:07, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I can't wait. It seems to be an accelerating process. --John (talk) 20:08, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

quick question regarding BLP1E

Heya Dennis, quick question for you. I saw your comment on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tamerlan Tsarnaev and Dzhokar Tsarnaev and I was just wondering how WP:BLP1E works when BLP1E also says "It is not the case that the event is significant and the individual's role within it is substantial and well-documented – as in the case of John Hinckley, Jr., who shot President Ronald Reagan in 1981." It seems like BLP1E could be contraticting itself, or maybe I'm just interpreting this wrong Anywho, thanks for your help good sir! — -dainomite   18:39, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

• Of course it is contradicting itself. All our policies are designed to contradict themselves, that way we can just do what we want ;-) Basically, it depends on the event and history behind it. Right now, we don't have enough information to split off the perps for the Boston bombing into a separate article. A separate article for someone who commits a crime is the exception to the rule, and the rule being to not do that if that is the only thing they are known for. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:12, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the explanation Dennis, I had a good chuckle regarding the first lines too — -dainomite   21:11, 20 April 2013 (UTC)