Dharma for one

Hello, Dharma for one! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! Dlohcierekim Deleted? 01:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC) Getting started A tutorial • Our five pillars • Getting mentored How to: edit a page • upload and use images Getting help Frequently asked questions • Tips Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Policies and guidelines Neutral point of view • No original research Verifiability • Reliable sources • Citing sources What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons Manual of Style • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The community Build consensus • Resolve disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community Portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Writing articles Be bold in editing • Develop an article The perfect article • Manual of style Stubs • Categories • Disambiguation Pages needing attention • Peer review Miscellaneous User name • User pages • Talk pages Clean up: General - Spam - Vandalism Join a WikiProject • Translation Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

user name

I'm glad. You can still edit anonymously when you want to. Meanwhile, a user name has many advantages. Good luck and happy editing. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 01:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Re:White people

I would be more than happy to include not only reliable, but pertinent sources into solving any issue. However, this is not the case. Let me outline my comment:

• I did not erase your "source" that claims that Argentina's population is 97% White. It is still there, however it is contextualized.
• The UBA study has not been contradicted. The first link you provide is broken (you might have an account that lets you access it, but not us). The second one does not contradict it. It simply says that Whites are majority, and Amerindians a small minority. No mention whatsoever of Mestizos or admixtures. Let's not misuse our sources to claim they say what they do not say.
• The UBA study was accepted and endorsed by the Ministry of Education, Science and Technology of the Government of Argentina. Their presentation even states that several other genetic studies actually confirm what the UBA claims. They present it as a way to change the false historical conceptions and to end discrimination.
• This is not the place to discuss the intricacies of Statistics (I recommend a book on it), but a few highlights will help:

• This study is the first to include major urban centers of all regions. (All previous studies relied only on Buenos Aires).
• It is a random sample of 310 individuals not 100.
• The random was statistically chosen; most studies with over 90% accuracy require as little as 30 individuals if the sample is randomly or stochastically selected and Gaussian normality is assumed. That is the very core or foundation of Statistics: you don't need to test the entire population.

• I cannot say anything about admixture in the US or Canada, or how it compares (if at all) to Argentine. If you have sources of other genetic studies, we might discuss.
• Also, the study claims that 56% of Argentines has an Amerindian ancestor. It does not say anything on the "percentage" of Amerindian ancestry per individual. It can be 1% or it can be 100%. Do not confuse what the study claims.
• Last, but not least, Wikipedia does not work on "content socialism", but on continuous improvement. If you want to include genetic reserach in Demographics of the United States or Demographics of Canada, please feel free to include it there. This is not an "either-or" situation. In this particular case, the inclusion of this genetic study is fully compliant with Wikipedia's rules.

Thanks for registering at Wikipedia. I would recommend you to review the policies and guidelines that rule our community, and wish you a happy editing. --the Dúnadan 02:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Dharma, I have been looking towards the recients editions on the article white people and this particular user the Dúnadan who has been editing all the articles with the UBA study made surprisingly in all white and demographics articles about Argentina I personally think we should report it as vandalism because he cannot just appear and erase all our contributions just because he wants to put a racist study against Argentina and all ending up in a great discution because that's what he has created..well I wait your opinion

Fercho85 02:32 09 Feb 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 05:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

White People: Reply

It's good to see that we are both willing to resolve this dispute. Some objections:

• I did not erase your "source" that claims that Argentina's population is 97% White. It is still there, however it is contextualized.

My text was already "contextualized". All you did was reword it differently.

• The UBA study has not been contradicted. The first link you provide is broken (you might have an account that lets you access it, but not us). The second one does not contradict it. It simply says that Whites are majority, and Amerindians a small minority. No mention whatsoever of Mestizos or admixtures. Let's not misuse our sources to claim they say what they do not say.

The second study clearly states, and I quote: the minisatellite bin distribution of the metropolitan population is not significantly different from other Caucasian populations., which is quite significant considering Argentina's population is around 90% urban. As for the first study, it gives a 19.4% Amerindian contribution, using the Bayesian clustering algorithm structure.

• This is not the place to discuss the intricacies of Statistics

Agreed.

Additionally, you have failed to address my original point, which is that genetic studies have no bearing on an article about cultural and census definitions of white people. In case you didn't notice, the section you edited is titled: Census and social definitions in different regions. The UBA study may be suitable for an article like Demographics of Argentina, but certainly not where you placed it. You might want to read the original talk page of the article to see the previous debates that have already been held on the matter. --Dharma for one (talk) 02:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you don't understand what is meant by "contextualizing"; contextualizing is rewording to reflect the context in which a particular definition is being given. Like you pointed out the title of the section is "census and social definitions..." (no need to bold it, unless you intend something). Well, if you read the other sections, you will see... well... definitions of what "white" means for a certain country both in census and socially. [Please read the other sections]. Your text simply stated that Argentina has 97% Europeans and that they come from this and that country, and that the "most conservative" [btw not true] estimate is 85%. There is no "definition", but a statistical demographic description which happens to be incomplete. How do we contextualize it and make it actually give a definition of what White means for Argentina? Well first by:

• explaining that there is no description of White in the census, but simply self-ascription (i.e. they asked the population, what do you consider yourself to be? Not surprisingly, the great majority of Argentines say "White". (A similar survey reported that the great majority of Chileans also claim to be White or Europeans, again, not surprisingly).
• explaining that the Ministry of Education, Science and Technology supports the findings of UBA and other studies that confirm that the admixture has been significant, and that by acknowledging it, it would bring tear down discrimination in the country, as the link suggest. Maybe we should make this more clear in the section so that the reader doesn't have to click on the link to confirm it. For example, the section of US does speak of DNA and white admixture in blacks. So, I guess it is pertinent to talk about it on the Argentina subsection.

Finally, again, I cannot confirm the first study: it is a broken link. Links and sources must be WP:Verifiable, yours isn't. The second source simply says that they "do not differ from other Caucasian population" in "metropolitan pops". Two things. "Caucasian population" like the US contain admixture (so there is no contradiction either), and secondly no definition of which urban populations are given. I think a further review of the actual content of the article is needed before claiming that "it contradicts" studies, confirmed by several other studies, and accepted by the Ministry of Education and Science.

--the Dúnadan 03:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I know exactly what the meaning of "contextualizing" is, and I believe my original text was properly contextualized, as it mentioned the fact that the Argentine census is based on self-identification, and it made a comparison with Argentina, and other "Areas of New Settlement", which is the geographic and economic term used to describe countries outside of Europe that obtained the bulk of their populations through European immigration in the XIX century, also known as "settler economies". (Canada, Australia, Argentina, South Africa, New Zealand and Uruguay)

Again, the problem with the UBA study is that it's the higher end of the spectrum. Most other studies put the number lower than that, with one putting as percentage of Amerindian contribution as low as 19.4%. I was able to access this study through two different proxies, as well as my usual internet connection, so I'm afraid your problems in accessing it are local. This does not make the study any less veryfiable, as anyone willing to make a google search can find it for free.

If you read through the 18 pages of the talk page archive, you will see that the consensus was to keep genetic studies out, and to try to focus on the social and census definitions instead.

Having followed this debate to its logical conclusion, I will now proceed to edit the article accordingly.

--Dharma for one (talk) 12:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I find it interesting that you decide when "the debate has reached a conclusion", instead of waiting for a more explicit agreement between parties. I have to insist that there is no verifiability for your first source, and I have tried to access it from different computers and locations. Two questions (1) was it a randomly selected sample of the entire population or just of BA (as it is usually the case); (2) can you prove that UBA is the higher end of the "spectrum", given that the report of the Ministry of Education says the results have been confirmed by other studies?

Secondly, I fail to see why you need to mention origin of immigrants. It is irrelevant to the "definition" of White? I don't think so. Moreover, you are automatically including Middle Easterns (with the weasel adjective "large" (how large?), which might not necessarily fall into the "White" category.

Thirdly, you say "more conservative estimates put it at 85%". Well, not according to the study by UBA. The conservative estimate would be 44%.

I will wait for you comments on this matter before doing any changes.

--the Dúnadan 14:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The Argentine population genetic structure: Large variance in Amerindian contribution study is based on sampling from the cities of Rosario, Santa Fe, Cordoba, Mar del Plata and Buenos Aires. These cities combined and their provinces, the central region of Argentina, represent around 60% of the total population of the country.

Secondly, yes, as far as I know the UBA study is the higher end of the spectrum. I may be wrong, however, I invite you to provide a study that shows a greater Amerindian contribution.

The origin of the immigrants is relevant to understand the origins of the social classification of "white" in Argentina, given that the article itself states that the term "white race" has its origins in Europe during the post-rennaissance era. Including this is relevant to understand how the social concept of "white" appeared in Argentine society. Middle Eastern immigration is also relevant, to show that ethnic groups such as the Lebanese or Syrians are also considered "white" in Argentine society.

Thirdly, "having Amerindian admixture" is not the same as not being white. A white argentine may have a non-visible admixture of 5% to 20%, and still be considered white, just like Spaniards with moorish ancestry, or New Zealanders of non-visible Maori heritage. The point is to show that, according to Argentine standards, at least 85% of the population is visibly white. Nobody is objecting to the Canadian "visible minority" definition of whiteness, yet both definitions use the exact same criteria.

If you can't access the study, I suggest using a web-proxy. I've been able to access it that way using two different US-based webproxies, as well as my regular internet connection. In any case, the study is also available in paper. Having an internet link to a document is not necessary for Verifiability, as long as the document is easily available in paper.

--Dharma for one (talk) 15:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I could finally access the study. However, you are comparing apples to oranges. The Study shows a large variance of Amerindian contribution within individual Argentines (94 to be precise), whereas the UBA study shows the percentage of Argentines with Amerindian contribution regardless of its weight (i.e. the variance within it can be large). In other words, UBA simply showed that 56% of Argentines had an Amerindian ancestor -based on the other study the Amerindian contribution of each individual in this category could be as low as, say 1% or 19%, or whatever other percentage). So, the study actually complements UBA findings. That was precisely the study I was talking about that some other user had presented a long time ago (probably in the archives). One thing is the Amerindian contribution in an individual's DNA and another the percentage of Argentine population with an Amerindian contribution of whatsoever size.

Just like DNA studies were presented in other subsections of the same article, I believe it is appropriate to do so here. "Visibly white" is as subjective as "visibly non-White", and probably biased.

Again, I fail to see the point of citing the countries of origin of Argentines. Obviously... all Whites come from Europe. No need to specify countries in order to define what a "White" is. Perhaps it could be useful like you pointed out, to say in the article that in Argentine demographics a Middle Eastern is considered White.

Cheers,

--the Dúnadan 15:44, 8 February 2008 (UTC)