User talk:Donald Trung/Archive 101

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Tech News: 2022-49

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Tech News: 2022-50

MediaWiki message delivery 23:32, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Archive box

Hello @Fayenatic london:, after my indefinite block not too long ago (a few years ago) I honestly don't want to see an "{{archive box}}" here as then the block and discussion would be "one (1) click away" and I still haven't processed the negative emotions related to it yet. I will restore it in the future, but I'm still not over it now. --Donald Trung (talk) 12:00, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Belated (and hidden on old page) reply: how about using it with a start number? – Fayenatic London 17:11, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

{{archives|start=100}}

Vietnamese royal banner

Hi, you might remember me from our discussions surrounding the old flags of Vietnam before.
But recently there are big gaps I want to fill that I feel would should not be hard... The "dragon star flag" was/is a bit of a mystery, although feels "solved", but aside from that, it is known that the yellow-red-yellow flag was introduced in the 1920's as the royal banner and became a "national flag" during WW2, but what was the royal banner before this?
Surely the emperor must have had some sort of banner to accompany him, what was it when the French colonized the country in the 1850's/1880's, and what was it during the protectorate period before the 1920's?
I get the impression it was a plain yellow (the royal colour), usually with some jagged decorative edges? (the origin to the often misrepresented "Cochinchina flag". As well as the later protectorate flag which added a French canton to a plain yellow flag in Imperial territory. Does this not also correspond to the claims of the "Flag of Minh Mạng" etc?)
Such high-ranking symbols from such modern times as even the 1900's, especially when documented under French rule, feel should not be hard to find some reference too? Especially when considering the information of the adoption of the flags (royal banners) of Cambodia and Luang Prabang (Laos) in the same period.
Do you know anything?
Regards, Havsjö (talk) 07:59, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Havsjö, the thing about imperial banners is that Chinese-style monarchies typically had more than one. A lot of flags were ceremonial and a lot of them had specific (and ceremonial) functions. Regarding the Dragon Star Flag, I'm not sure if it only became the national flag during World War II, I've seen works describe it as "the national flag" during the 1930's, I'm planning on writing an article on it in the future, but the French only started describing it as the Nguyễn Dynasty's national flag in 1941, but in Vietnamese-language works it was already described as "the flag of the south" earlier.
There is also an interesting fake "flag of Cochinchina", namely this one that had been circulating in the West since the Nguyễn Lords period. These types of flags were common in China and Vietnam to mean authority, but I've not been able to find a direct example of a pre-1885 imperial banner of the Nguyễn Dynasty.
Also, the Đại Nam (大南) Traditional Chinese characters flag is legitimate and backed up by historical sources, though this is the earliest actual imperial banner that I've been able to find and some sources will list it as "the national flag" of the Nguyễn Dynasty.
The main flag used by Vietnamese Emperors seemed to have been the five-elements flag, even in 1945 it seemed to have been the flag mostly used in ceremonies. -- — Donald Trung (talk) 09:57, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Hmm, thanks for the info. (By dragon star flag I meant the yellow with red circle and blue edge, btw.
But do you know what the original for the plain-yellow flag meant? It really do seem like the prevalence of the reports of the plain-yellow so-called "Cochinchina flag" and later plain-yellow french-canton'ed protectorate flag, as well as yellow flags (with various red defacements) being the main type of Vietnamese flag in royal times, indicates a yellow banners use as some sort of more "general" flag... Nguyen royal-yellow banner or ensign of some type? Are there really no French or Vietnamese sources from either back then or now describing the flags used at the time? --Havsjö (talk) 10:33, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
The yellow + red "大南" was even a plain-yellow flag defaced with letters since a flag was need to represent Vietnam that was not the royal banner (as the monarch was not present etc) (or so Ive read...) But then even there the "template" on the Vietnamese ambassadors ship used to make it was a plain yellow flag... Btw, was the yellow + 大南 flag used outside of its provisional role on that diplomatic visit to France? --Havsjö (talk) 10:35, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Havsjö, I know how you used it, but the yellow-red-yellow flag was the actual one, the people pushing for it are using the official name for the later flag to make the fake one "more legitimate".
The yellow flag most likely was the official one, I've seen plain yellow flags in a number of paintings and the protectorate flag is well-documented. In fact, it wasn't just used in Annam and Tonkin, it (or a variant of it) was also used as a merchant flag in French Cochinchina during this period. At least according to a number of contemporary sources.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any sources directly describing the plain yellow flag. In Imperial China (and Vietnam) yellow was the colour of the Emperor and imperial Chinese and Vietnamese flags tend to use a lot of yellow to indicate imperial authority. So, while Chinese and Vietnamese Emperors used the plain yellow flag as a symbol of their imperial authority, I haven't been able to find any French or Vietnamese sources directly describing its usage.
I remember coming across an ancient Chinese book on imperial flag culture at the Wikimedia Commons which could work as a handy guide (as Vietnam and Korea had identical flag cultures), but I've been unable to find it as I can't remember the file name or where the book was. -- — Donald Trung (talk) 10:41, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Havsjö, The yellow + 大南 flag is mostly attributed in contemporary flag charts, I think that you are confusing it with this flag, but it could be that they repeated it later after 1885. But there's a reason why it has been incorrectly illustrated abroad several times. -- — Donald Trung (talk) 10:51, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

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Tech News: 2022-51

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