User talk:Dudley Miles/sandbox2

Request for comments

Bazza 7 I have drafted this article in response to your complaint that the meaning of seneschal in the Eadwig article is unclear. Any comments from you, and from Mike Christie and Tim riley, gratefully received. I am keeping the article in the sandbox as I am not sure of the best title. Maybe Dish-bearers and butlers in Anglo-Saxon England, but I am open to other suggestions. Dudley Miles (talk) 23:26, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

This is not an area of AS history that I've read much about, but the article seems fine to me, and if you use "dish-bearer" instead of "seneschal" in the article on Eadwig I think it would resolve any confusion. Sources are all fine. Re the title: there's already a cup-bearer article. Maybe dish-bearer, and make cup-bearer (Anglo-Saxon) a redirect, and then do a {{main}} link from a summarizing section in cup-bearer? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:13, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks Mike. Just to clarify, are you suggesting that I make the article title just Dish-bearer? Dudley Miles (talk) 09:44, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, although that's based on my limited understanding of the topic, so I'd be fine with something else if you have another preference. I think it's not usual Wikipedia style to have "A or B" as the title of an article; we usually have "A" with "B" given in the first couple of sentences. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:50, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Mike I don't think your suggestion would work. There were dish-bearers in other societies such as ancient Persia, and the article does also cover butlers. There are plenty of other articles which use "and", such as Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I prefer Dish-bearers and butlers in Anglo-Saxon England, or perhaps Dish-bearers and butlers at Anglo-Saxon royal feasts, although I am still open to other suggestions. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:32, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Fair comment -- if the sources support combining the two roles in a single article then I agree. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:40, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

@Dudley Miles Thanks for going to considerable effort to explain all this. If the link in the Eadwig article to seneschal had shown this, my problem understanding what it meant (not really a complaint) would have evaporated.

It would be helpful, from my lay point of view, to have some of the "anglicised" words in the Etymology section added to the lead as "sometimes called" or similar, to reassure me that I'm reading what I ought to be; dish-thegn, seneschal for instance.

On a picky note: the first sentence is ambiguous: the and and or are difficult to place, and a comma or two might help. Is it Dish-bearers, and butlers or cup-bearers, were...?

Thanks, again, for demonstrating a true Wikipedia spirit of collaboration and consensus. Bazza (talk) 09:45, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

@Dudley Miles I have rudely forgotten to address your invitation regarding the article title. I am happy with whatever, as long as the first sentence makes clear exactly what the article is about (as I have indicated above). Bazza (talk) 09:48, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Bazza 7. I will look at how best to addrss your points. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:46, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I have just realised that I forgot to write the lead and I will deal with this. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:20, 6 December 2022 (UTC)