Duduong

Vedant is biasing the Sino-Indian War article

If you are implying that I am biased in the article, then I suggest you look up these difference pages [1] [2]. Also pay attention to the fact that both times you made these unilateral changes to the article, they were almost immediately reverted because they did not adhere to a neutral point of view. I have no issue as to the People's Daily article being included if you can source it which you have consistently failed to do. If you have a source that claims this, please post it otherwise I will continue to remove it and may refer this issue to an administrator if necessary. Vedant (talk) 16:48, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

First of all, let me please refer you to WP:No Personal Attacks. Second, you must provide a reference through a either template or through use of the ref tags or one of the citation templates. Vedant (talk) 17:02, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I have provided all relevant information for the reference. What more do you want? As for the proper template, I could not save it because you kept reverting the article within minutes. You are using a ridiculous circular logic that goes like this: Others cannot reference the People's Daily article because you revert it very quickly, and you claim to be justified in the reverting because the referencing is not done properly.

Besides, your complaint about the ref template is obviously a lame excuse, because if it is true, why not just correct the format instead of deleting it?

Also, I finally managed to get the reference done right. That did not stop you from deleting it again. What is your excuse this time? Please tell the truth

Sigh, when you first inserted this comment, you didn't provide a proper citation which is why I removed it. Second, your contribution log and other edits on the article revolved around introducing subtle-POV into the article which is not tolerable on Wikipedia. Third, the comments you left here and on my talk page seem to indicate a litany of personal attacks. I'll reintroduce the claim into the article but I don't believe the writing style you used conforms to a neutral point of view. Last, out of curiosity, I was wondering if maybe you could provide a photograph or scan of this issue of the People's Daily or some sort of web-link affirming this. Vedant (talk) 07:00, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I did not include any subjective phrases in my addition, so it is impossible to understand what you mean by "writing style". No objective readers could object to the material of my addition. I got into trouble only because I am not a regular Wiki hack like you and therefore do not know what to do when faced with someone unreasonable. Everything I put in is straight quote and translation. Your ignorance of it (Not surprising since the Indian media has steadfastly managed to avoid mentioning it for 48 years.) was what clouded your mind with suspicion of prejudice.

You also just admitted that you killed a legitimate quote because you did not like my OTHER additions. This is a very questionable action that would not have been tolerated in a professional publishing organization.

As for subtle POV, they only seem so because most of the English editors of this page are Indians. They have infused this page with a not-too-subtle POV biased against the Chinese over the years. For example, in the initial combat, 50 lightly armed Indian troops WERE READY to attack and drive back 1000+ Chinese soldiers armed with artillery and entrenched in favorable terrain? This laughable propaganda was allowed to sit on Wikipedia for years! I changed it to they "claimed" to be ready, and you consider this a "subtle POV"? Who has lost touch with reality here?

You still have not justified how you could kill the quote even after it was put in the correct format. The only excuse is that you believe it to be biased and untrue. But this suspicion of yours is YOUR responsibility to verify or disprove. Just because official Indian history deleted this inconvenient fact does not mean that you have the right to reach a judgment without even a Google search.

This People's Daily article is famous. Just search the last phrase "勿谓言之不预 1962" in Google, and you will find hundreds of web pages quoting it. As I said, the Chinese government used the same phrase again just before declaring war against Vietnam in 1979 (Google "勿谓言之不预 1979"!). It is considered the standard Chinese code word of an ultimatum, equivalent to "Back off, or war in two weeks."

Of course, I may be wasting my breath here. After the debacle of the 1962 war, the Indian government and media, which were both culprits of the war, worked hard to rewrite history to cover their mistakes. Most Indians are raised thinking that the war was "unprovoked" and a "surprise attack". It was anything but. But this English version of Wiki page is dominated by Indian writers who have been brainwashed since birth. It is one of the most biased Wiki page I know. I am too old to hold delusions that a lifelong misconception shared by a large group can be challenged with reasons and facts, however solid they may be. But blatantly censuring such an important piece of history is just too much. Duduong (talk) 21:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Your talk page comments seem to indicate that you have difficulty maintaining your impartiality. The fact that you have accused me, and Indian editors and indeed India the country as a whole violate WP:No Personal Attacks. As such I'm skeptical as to what productive contributions you will make to the article and project as a whole. Also, it is not my responsibility to provide citations for claims that another user instates. On occasion I perform this action anyways but for the most part, if you insert a claim, it's your responsibility to back up that claim with a citation. Uncited material can be removed without warning or explicit permission from any author. Vedant (talk) 23:55, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Also Duduong, I'd like to point out that I did some research and looked at de-classified CIA documents and inserted the claim you were attempting to do. However, I did provide a credible source for this where third parties would have less difficulty verifying this claim. However, based on your arguably prejudiced personal opinions of India, Indian editors and me I would recommend you contribute in a different field as it appears to me that you are having difficulties maintaining neutrality in the matter. Vedant (talk) 13:49, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

If you can read Chinese, you will realize the Chinese and English versions of the story on the 1962 war are mutually contradicting even within the Wikipedia itself. I do assume that the Chinese version reflects the Chinese view while the English version reflects the Indian view. If you disagree with this assumption, I would love to know how and why. I also assume that at least one side (and probably both) is not telling the whole truth. Are you claiming that the English version of Wikipedia automatically trumps the Chinese version?

I am not from China, and have a healthy skepticism against the official Chinese history. Likewise, I am not from India, and definitely have a healthy skepticism against the popular Indian version of the history also. But actually I consider the most reliable source to be an Indian one, i.e. the Henderson Brooks report, which was classified by the Indian government but I had access to when I served in the Taiwanese military as an intelligence officer many years ago. The Wiki article as it stands now contradicts the Henderson Brooks report in many places. Are you claiming that General Brooks lied? Based on what expertise? All I am saying is that I believe General Brooks a lot more than I believe a group of laymen (in warfare and history, not in Wiki) who source their information from mass media and politicians.

As for the People's Daily article, it is available in all major libraries in China. If you live in the US, Library of Congress and the Yenching Library of Harvard's East Asia Study Department are the places to go. I graduated from Harvard long ago and no longer live near Boston. I am not going to be able to get a physical copy for you, but digital copies abound online. Feel free to search for it, if you know Chinese. I gave the publication, the date and the page. This is all that is required by Wikipedia. People's Daily is a lot better known than most of the citation sources and yet no one else provides a physical scan on other citations. It is hypocritical to insist on it on just this one case.

You have shown some willingness to debate the issue, so I am reciprocating that effort here. But I know it is hard to change one's fundamental belief when the person is not trained to think independently and cynically. Hell, even lots of Ph.D.s who supposedly have that training can still be pig-headed and dead-wrong. But the evidence of that People's Daily article is in plain sight. The only barrier is the language, but, well, it is not my duty to teach you Chinese.

Oh, by the way, the comment about the Indian government and media lied to the people to get them into an unnecessary war, that did not come from me. It comes from General Brooks. This is probably why the Indian Government is still trying to cover it up. See: http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncategorized/why-cant-sino-india-war-report-be-made-public-court-asks-government_100219018.html Duduong

(talk) 17:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Allow me to be frank, I don't wish to engage in any further discussion with you regarding the matter. This is primarily because your bias is apparent through your contributions. Attempting to sway me by claiming you distrust the PRC government equally doesn't convince me especially in light of your actions. I think the best solution for both of us would be to avoid the Sino-Indian war article altogether. If a similar issue ever goes before an administrator again, please expect that I will mention your controversial past additions, your personal attacks and your attacks on Indians as a whole. Vedant (talk) 01:26, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

This suits me perfectly. You want to live in your dream world; that is indeed not my business. I am just amazed that you have the thick skin to accuse me of bias while not addressing any of the factual arguments. What about the People's Daily's article? What about the Brooks report? In the meanwhile, you have no factual basis for your story. These facts are inconvenient to your prejudice, and you simply ignore and avoid them. How typical and laughable. Duduong (talk) 00:07, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

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April 2011

Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to contribute to the encyclopedia, but when you add or change content, as you did to the article Chengdu J-10, please cite a reliable source for the content of your edit. This helps maintain our policy of verifiability. See Wikipedia:Citing sources for how to cite sources, and the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Nem1yan (talk) 14:44, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your contributions. Please remember to mark your edits, such as your recent edits to Chengdu J-10, as "minor" only if they truly are minor edits. In accordance with Help:Minor edit, a minor edit is one that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute. Minor edits consist of things such as typographical corrections, formatting changes, or rearrangement of text without modification of content. Additionally, the reversion of clear-cut vandalism and test edits may be labeled "minor". Thank you. Nem1yan (talk) 14:06, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Shenyang WS-15

Hey can you tell me where you got the information for the edits you made. They conflict with many of my sources since the engine from the Yak-141 uses thrust vectoring technology more similar the that of the F-35. Also it's better to cite a source when adding new information to the page. -14:46, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

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ArbCom elections are now open!

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