User talk:Dutchy85/Archive 3

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December 2012

Hello, Dutchy85! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. You may benefit from following some of the links below, which will help you get the most out of Wikipedia. If you have any questions you can ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or by typing four tildes "~~~~"; this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you are already excited about Wikipedia, you might want to consider being "adopted" by a more experienced editor or joining a WikiProject to collaborate with others in creating and improving articles of your interest. Click here for a directory of all the WikiProjects. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field when making edits to pages. Happy editing! 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:54, 17 December 2012 (UTC) Getting Started The five pillars of Wikipedia • Tutorial • Your first article How to: edit a page • upload an image Getting Help Frequently Asked Questions New contributors' help page Where to: ask questions • make requests Request administrator attention Policies and Guidelines Neutral point of view • Reliable sources Verifiability • Citing sources • No original research What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons Simplified Manual of Style • Three-revert rule Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism • Sock puppetry Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The Community Community Portal • Adopt-a-user program Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • Resolving disputes Build consensus • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Things to do Be bold in editing • Help develop an article Maintenance • Peer review • Requested articles Join a WikiProject • Translating articles Cleaning up: General • Spam • Vandalism Miscellaneous Categories • Disambiguity • Stubs User pages • Talk pages Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:54, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Season's tidings!

To you and yours, Have a Merry ______ (fill in the blank) and Happy New Year! FWiW Bzuk (talk) 03:52, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Rentals vs box office totals

Hi Dutchy85. I am concerned that using the term 'rentals' to refer to box office totals will confuse readers. I think people will misread this as referring to video/DVD rentals, whereas I believe the source you are using is referring to theatres renting film from studios (correct me if I'm wrong here). I think infobox additions like this would be clearer if it said "$2,350,000 (US/Canada)" rather than "$2,350,000 (US/Canada rentals)". Let me know what you think. Thanks, Gobōnobō ^{+ c} 09:20, 22 December 2012 (UTC) I'm happy to try it - I thought "rentals" was a reasonably understood term, but it's easily changedDutchy85 (talk) 09:50, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

If the figure is a "rental" gross as opposed to a "box office" gross it certainly needs to be clarified. Something like The Godfather earned $86 million in US rentals, which was about $135 million in box office gross, so they are distinct quantities. You can wikilink gross rental if you think readers will be confused by the terminology. Betty Logan (talk) 10:02, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for that link. I see that distributor rentals are somewhere in the range of 40% of the box office, so I agree that any rental amount listed should be labelled as such. I think there is still potential for confusion if it just says rentals, but a link such as that one would certainly help. I'm curious whether WikiProject Film has a set way to deal with this. The documentation for Template:Infobox film didn't have anything to say about rentals. Gobōnobō ^{+ c} 10:32, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any Film project guideline for dealing with this, although it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to raise the issue there. Comprehensive box-office tracking didn't really begin until the 1970s, so there are many films prior to the 70s where only the rentals are known. Betty Logan (talk) 10:43, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I've brought this up over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film. Gobōnobō ^{+ c} 10:55, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Variety's rental totals are an incredibly useful guide as to a film's success (and they are reasonably accurate too, far more accurate about older films that the website "The Numbers") - I think wikipedia users will find it useful I will just make sure from now on I clarify that it is rentals.Dutchy85 (talk) 10:45, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the totals are useful Dutchy85. I just want to be sure that readers don't think that we are referring to something else. I think Betty Logan's suggestion of linking the term like this: rentals could be a good solution. We'll see if anyone chimes in over at the WikiProject talk page. Thanks for all of your work by the way. Cheers, Gobōnobō ^{+ c} 10:55, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Why not say clearly "the distributor's share of box office grosses"? Better yet, why not just report box office grosses, which is the number that everyone is used to seeing? I think that "rentals" will make 99% of readers think you mean video/DVD rentals. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:45, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Box-office is a better and more familiar metric for assessing a film's public performance, and should be preferred if available, but the problem is that the switch to box office didn't come until the 1970s i.e. all the sources of the time published rental data, so gross data simply isn't available in many cases prior to the 70s. It's unfortunate that "rental" is confused with the home video, but there are ways around it. You can wikilink to the definition (gross rental) or use a hover box (rental) or alternatively you can add a footnote. It should be clear though, because it is historic terminology unfamiliar to most readers. Betty Logan (talk) 08:41, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Charles Villiers

I wonder if you have been able to find any biographical information on Charles Villiers?; or have any suggestions about finding it. I have looked at the State Library, Victoria, but have found only short references about his prolific career as an actor and as a producer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacky Smythe (talk • contribs) 09:39, 1 March 2013 (UTC) Hey Jackie - no, I don't unfortunately - there's not a lot. Have you tried searching old newspapers on "Trove"? The National Film and Sound Archive might also be good. For a reference book I ran recommend Andrew Pike and Ross Cooper's book on Australian film. There's a little bit on Alfred Rolfe out there - Villier's collaborator. I'd love to know more about Villier's career - he made a big contribution to early Australian film. If you've got any stuff please post it in the entry!Dutchy85 (talk) 00:02, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

About The Chocolate Frog

Hi mate.
I recall seeing posters around Carlton advertising The Chocolate Frog and The Old Familiar Juice as a double bill at La Mama in 1989. Closest I can find is this. As you probably know, both the plays' names are taken from prison slang, but I can't find anything even coming near a reliable reference for that.
PS: you might want to have a look at The Pram Factory
Pete aka --Shirt58 (talk) 10:56, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of Faith McKinnon for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Faith McKinnon is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Faith McKinnon until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Uberaccount (talk) 03:41, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

May 2013

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Jason Herbison

Hi there. I'm kinda concerned that the only reference in this WP:BLP is from an unofficial/fan site. Do you plan on adding reliable sources to the article in the near future? I know he's been contributing to Inside Soap for a number of years and writes episodes of Neighbours, but can you prove that those things make him notable? - JuneGloom Talk 00:58, 5 June 2013 (UTC) He has quite extensive credits - I've beefed it up. Let me know what you think. AustLit is fairly reliable as is IMDB.Dutchy85 (talk) 01:11, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

He may do, but there are still no sources other than the one the article started out with. IMDb is not considered to be a reliable source since anyone can edit it, which is why it is only used as an external link. In fact, I can see a mistake with Herbison's profile straight away. It says he stopped working for Neighbours in 2011, but he is still writing episodes for the show. - JuneGloom Talk 22:34, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

June 2013

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• *''[[Whose Baby? (mini-series)|Whose Baby?]]'' (1986) (mini-series_

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High Country (1983 film)

IMDb lists High Country as a 1984 film. Could you please check that? =] Best regards, Bisbis (talk) 00:36, 16 July 2013 (UTC) I have conflicting sources on that - I decided to go with 1983.

The Humpty Dumpy Man & The Humpty Dumpty Man

Hi, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you tried to give The Humpty Dumpy Man a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into The Humpty Dumpty Man. This is known as a "cut and paste move", and it is undesirable because it splits the page history, which is legally required for attribution. Instead, the software used by Wikipedia has a feature that allows pages to be moved to a new title together with their edit history.

In most cases, once your account is four days old and has ten edits, you should be able to move an article yourself using the "Move" tab at the top of the page. This both preserves the page history intact and automatically creates a redirect from the old title to the new. If you cannot perform a particular page move yourself this way (e.g. because a page already exists at the target title), please follow the instructions at requested moves to have it moved by someone else. Also, if there are any other pages that you moved by copying and pasting, even if it was a long time ago, please list them at Wikipedia:Cut and paste move repair holding pen. Thank you. Bisbis (talk) 00:31, 16 July 2013 (UTC) Hey Bisbis thanks for that I didn't know it - cheers!Dutchy85 (talk) 02:16, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Australian film stubs

Hello! I admire the amount of work that you have done, in adding Australian films to Wikipedia. However, when adding articles that are stubs, could you please add {{Australia-film-stub}} or {{Australia-tv-film-stub}} to the article, rather than just {{film-stub}}? This will insure that the article is categorized properly, and that it is added to the Australian cinema wikiproject. Thanks! Fortdj33 (talk) 16:36, 25 July 2013 (UTC) No worries I will try and thanks for all your work tooDutchy85 (talk) 10:52, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of Skin Deep (1985 film) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Skin Deep (1985 film) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Skin Deep (1985 film) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. SL93 (talk) 16:13, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Siege of Constantinople (378)

The article Siege of Constantinople (378) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

There is no indication in any source of a Gothic siege of Constantinople, as opposed to raiding parties reaching up to its walls.

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Constantine ✍ 11:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/List of Australian history films concern

Hi there, I'm HasteurBot. I just wanted to let you know that Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/List of Australian history films, a page you created has not been edited in at least 180 days. The Articles for Creation space is not an indefinite storage location for content that is not appropriate for articlespace. If your submission is not edited soon, it could be nominated for deletion. If you would like to attempt to save it, you will need to improve it. You may request Userfication of the content if it meets requirements. If the deletion has already occured, instructions on how you may be able to retrieve it are available at WP:REFUND/G13. Thank you for your attention. HasteurBot (talk) 02:16, 16 August 2013 (UTC) Thanks i actually thought the page had been deleted already - I'm not attached to it.Dutchy85 (talk) 02:20, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

attachment or no attachment

Please - when creating new stubs and articles - consider the small effort in putting project tags on the talk pages - it is worth doing for a range of reasons... thanks sats 01:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

August 2013

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• *adaptation of ''Redheap]] by [[Norman Lindsay]]

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• | network = ABC (Australia_

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• 2 April 1935 |accessdate=24 August 2013 |page=17 |publisher=National Library of Australia}}</ref> (He may have been billed as "Fitzgerald"<ref name="strutter"/>

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• production due to the formation of [[The Combine (Australian film industry)|"the Combine"]] (which absorbed Spencer's old company(, Longford found it increasingly difficult to secure funding for a time. He went to work for the [[
• over making ''[[The Silence of Dean Maitland (1914 film)|The Silence of Dean Maitland]]'' (1914) (which Longford claimed the Combine refused to screen( and ''[[The Church and the Woman]]'' (1917).

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Speedy deletion nomination of Empire Builders

Hello Dutchy85,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged Empire Builders for deletion, because it seems to be promotional, rather than an encyclopedia article.

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to work on it, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. Jay 13:10, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Fighter's Paradise

Hello Dutchy85,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged Fighter's Paradise for deletion, because it seems to be inappropriate for a variety of reasons.

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to work on it, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. Jay 13:11, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of The Sword of Valor

Hello Dutchy85,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged The Sword of Valor for deletion, because it seems to be inappropriate for a variety of reasons.

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to work on it, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. Jay 13:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of His Last Race

Hello Dutchy85,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged His Last Race for deletion, because it seems to be promotional, rather than an encyclopedia article.

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to work on it, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. Jay 13:23, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of The White Panther

Hello Dutchy85,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged The White Panther for deletion, because it seems to be promotional, rather than an encyclopedia article.

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to work on it, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. Jay 13:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Sleeping Acres

Hello Dutchy85,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged Sleeping Acres for deletion, because it seems to be promotional, rather than an encyclopedia article.

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to work on it, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. Jay 13:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of The Kid from Texas (1939 film)

Hello Dutchy85,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged The Kid from Texas (1939 film) for deletion, because the article doesn't clearly say why the subject is important enough to be included in an encyclopedia.

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to work on it, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. Jay 13:28, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Fighter's Paradise

Hello Dutchy85,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged Fighter's Paradise for deletion, because the article doesn't clearly say why the subject is important enough to be included in an encyclopedia.

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to work on it, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. Jay 13:33, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

September 2013

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• The films ''Dan Morgan (1911)|Dan Morgan]]'' (1911) and ''[[Mad Dog Morgan]]'' (1976) are based on his life and death. Dan Morgan also

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• *[http://www.silentera.com/PSFL/data/S/SweetNellOfOldDrury1911.html ''Sweet Nell of Old Drury' at

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• earned only £2,200 at the Australian box office with the possibility of this going up to £3,000 ("although it's doubtful"<ref name="everyone"/> and the reported sale to England giving it a chance

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• |date=20 May 1924 |accessdate=29 September 2013 |page=4 |publisher=National Library of Australia}}</ref>

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Regarding File:The Loyal Rebel.jpg licensing

Hello there I see that you have uploaded File:The Loyal Rebel.jpg in WP, I have a suggestion since this film is from Silent Film era, and its studio is now defunct, you could well apply Public Domain license on this file, seek further reference to see if this is possible, regards. Eduemoni^↑talk↓ 14:23, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

November 2013

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• station, the Secretariat, the Education Office and the installations behind Wolseley barracks (this attack was led by [[Markos Drakos]];

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Posters sourced to the Internet

Hi Dutchy85. I see you have recently uploaded quite a few old movie posters. Most of them are sourced to "the Internet". This is not really specific enough to meet the needs of verifiability, as a full url to the website where you found each image will help us determine their copyright status with more accuracy. Without a verifiable source, the images could be nominated for deletion. Could you please go back through all your uploads for October 2013 and add more specific source information? Please note that a generic url that links directly to the image is not very helpful; please link to the webpage where you found the material. In order to determine the copyright status of each image, it's also important to provide proof of the date each poster was originally published. Thank you, -- Diannaa (talk) 17:25, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

The Man from Snowy River advertisement you have uploaded to the article for the original 1920 Australian film appears to be public domain and can be uploaded to commons, but even an upload there will require the exact source. I have been pleasantly surprised to see many reliable sources to show the film did come out in 1920 but none of the sources (many are incomplete Google book previews) do not show a poster, artwork or advertisement that I can view. Please look back in your memory for the exact location you found that particular image as it can be rescued with just the accurate source on the internet or in a published book perhaps?--Mark Miller (talk) 00:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I have found sources for a few of the images, but the rest are now tagged for deletion. You have one more week to add verifiable sources to these files, or they will be deleted. A complete list of your uploads can be found here. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:32, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi Dutchy85. I notice you have added sources for the images, but for the most part what you have put is inadequate. I have added urls for images available at www.ozmovies.com.au. But I was unable to find online the images you sourced to the Trove - National Library of Australia and the National Film and Sound Archive. Please add a url for each of these images, like I did for the Oz Movies images. If they came from a book, please give full publication information, like I did for the Pike and Cooper book. It is not okay for you to remove speedy deletion templates; an administrator has to do that step. Please don't do that any more. The following images still need more details on their source. Please add additional source information immediately:

• File:The Fatal Wedding still.jpg
• File:Captain Midnight still.jpg
• File:The Bushwhackers.jpg
• File:Poster for the Man from Kangaroo.jpg
• File:Shadow of Lightning Ridge.jpg
• File:Midnight Wedding.jpg
• File:Moondyne Poster.jpg
• File:Within the Law.jpg
• File:The Loyal Rebel.jpg
• File:Secret of the Skies.jpg
• File:Our Friends the Hayseeds.jpg
• File:Hayseeds Sydney.jpg
• File:Hayseeds Backblocks.jpg
• File:Hayseeds Melbourne.jpg
• File:Satan in Sydney.jpg
• File:Desert Gold.jpg
• File:Barry Butts In.jpg
• File:The Man from Snowy River poster.jpg
• File:The Betrayer.jpg
• File:While the Billy Boils.jpg
• File:Townies and Hayseeds.png
• File:Thunderbolt 1910.jpg
• File:Thunderbolt rocks.jpg
• File:Thunderbolt grave.jpg
• File:Moonlite film.jpg
• File:The Assigned Servant.jpg
• File:Nurse Cavell.jpg
• File:Captain Midnight horses.jpg
• File:Captain midnight family.jpg
• File:The Murder of Captain Fryatt.jpg
• File:Trooper O'Brien.jpg

-- Diannaa (talk) 23:18, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Hey Diannaa sorry I thought once I provided a source I had to delete the template - apologiesDutchy85 (talk) 11:33, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I am going to go over the above list again and mark as public domain any that qualify. Thanks for getting this looked after. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:18, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

In the future please ensure that all your uploads have a checkable, verifiable source. Whether you got the image from a book, the Internet, or scanned the image at an archive, please give full information so that the copyright status of the image can be accurately determined. Wikipedia takes copyright law very seriously, and you risk having your images deleted if these details are not present. It's also important that you add the correct license template to any images that you upload. You can use the information on template {{PD-Australia}} to determine the Australian copyright status of images. On this wiki and on Commons, however, it is equally important to determine the copyright status in the United States; since the servers are housed in the United States we are also subject to American copyright law. Please see the Hirtle Chart to determine copyright status in the US. Please don't place fair use rationales on items that are public domain in the United States, and please don't upload any images to the Commons unless you are absolutely sure that they are public domain in both the source country and the United States. -- Diannaa (talk) 15:32, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

@Dutchy85 - You might want to look at the Movie Poster Database (just Google it) and see what they have there. It's rare that I can't find a poster there when I'm looking for one. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:41, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Movie trailers in external llinks

Hello. I've seen you around various movie articles, improving them with information about budgets and grosses, but I don't think we've ever "spoken". I just removed your link to YouTube for movie trailers for Blazing Saddles, and I wanted to explain why.

Generally, movie trailers are copyrighted. There are exceptions that date from the 30s and 40s when copyright owners forgot to file to renew the copyrights, and those trailers are in the public domain, but for the most part, you should assume that any movie trailer is copyrighted unless you have specific and well-supported information that says otherwise.

Now, of course, putting a link in the external links isn't exactly like putting copyright violating material directly into Wikipedia, but our policy on external links is pretty clear that links to violating material should not be added to EL sections. Also, because so much material on YouTube is in violation of copyright, links to YouTube are strongly discouraged.

So, the upshot is that unless you know for certain that the movie trailer you're linking to is not copyrighted (in which case it can be uploaded to Commons), it's best not to add links in the EL section to movie trailers. Best, Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:49, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of File:Captain Midnight horses.jpg

A tag has been placed on File:Captain Midnight horses.jpg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section F1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the image is an unused redundant copy (all pixels the same or scaled down) of an image in the same file format, which is on Wikipedia (not on Commons), and all inward links have been updated.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Stefan2 (talk) 15:58, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Ways to improve Childish Things (film)

Hi, I'm Deejawwad. Dutchy85, thanks for creating Childish Things (film)!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. Please improve this article by adding reliable sources.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse. Jawwad Durrani Talk to me 14:30, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Ways to improve Sea of Lost Ships

Hi, I'm Deejawwad. Dutchy85, thanks for creating Sea of Lost Ships!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. Please improve this article by adding reliable sources.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse. Jawwad Durrani Talk to me 14:38, 15 November 2013 (UTC)