Edencardim

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Flechette

I removed your edits to flechette. 1) Your YouTube citation is a wp:UGC / wp:Self-published source which does not fit wp:Reliable sources. 2) You stated that Ukraine used "fléchettes cluster munitions". The HRW citation does not mention "fléchettes". So that content should not be in the flechette article. Adakiko (talk) 09:12, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Here is an AFP source with explicit mention of the word flechette in the caption of the main image of the article.

https://news.yahoo.com/surgeons-ukraines-rebel-donetsk-confirm-cluster-bomb-usage-205747600.html Edencardim (talk) 11:17, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

It uses "flechette shell". A "shell" is an artillery round, not a cluster bomb munition. Adakiko (talk) 17:20, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

The caption, verbatim:

A Pro-Russian separatist fighter shows a DART from a FLECHETTE SHELL on October 21, 2014, in Donetsk, Ukraine.

The name flechette is french for DART as mentioned in the article itself: The name comes from French fléchette, "little arrow" or "dart"

The FLECHETTE is a metalic DART which is a submunition encapsuled in a SHELL munition for delivery to the target upon which the round explodes and the submunition is fired.

There are no grounds left to refuse the source. Edencardim (talk) 17:43, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Besides that, the captioned picture is a PHOTOGRAPH of the FLECHETTE itself, shot on the ground in Donetsk.

There are further references to the SUBMUNITION in the reference:

"The little darts cause grave injuries," he said. "There have been cases when we found up to 20 or 30 of them in one person." Edencardim (talk) 17:47, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

You are POV pushing, please see WP:NPOV Edencardim (talk) 17:53, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

A flechette SHELL is the encasing from artillery that fires cluster submunition on approaching the target. It is NOT fired from a gun. See Cluster_munition#Types

Here are other references of the term from other instances of this submunition use:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israel-using-flechette-shells-in-gaza - "The Israeli military is using flechette shells, which spray out thousands of tiny and potentially lethal metal darts, in its military operation in Gaza."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/04/18/flechette-projectile-ukraine-russia/ - "She combed her walled courtyard for them, she said, after a Russian artillery shell carrying them burst somewhere overhead days before the Russians withdrew late last month, seeding the area with thousands of potentially lethal darts ... These projectiles, called fléchettes, are rarely seen or used in modern conflict"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10732101/Putins-invading-troops-using-WW1-era-metal-DARTS-Russian-shell-packed-inch-long-arrows.html - "Putin's invading troops 'are using lethal WW1-era metal DARTS' in bombing raids: Russian shell that exploded over Bucha 'was packed with inch-long arrows'"

All of these articles are descriptions of Cluster_munition packed with flechette submunition, including the originally referenced article which reports their use by the forces of Ukraine. Edencardim (talk) 18:05, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Your statement on flechette shells is WRONG, they are NOT fired from a gun, they are fired by artillery weapons. There is no need for the word flechette and cluster being together. The words "cluster" and "shell" are interchangeable in this context. The other reference mentioned in the article also uses the "flechette shell" construct see https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/24/dozens-bucha-civilians-killed-flechettes-metal-darts-russian-artillery

Verbatim from reference:

Although human rights groups have long sought a ban on FLÉCHETTE SHELLS, the munitions are not prohibited under international law.

Again, citing Cluster_munition#types verbatim:

A basic CLUSTER BOMB CONSISTS OF A HOLLOW SHELL and then two to more than 2,000 SUBMUNITIONS or bomblets CONTAINED within it Edencardim (talk) 18:15, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

The photo caption does not tie the two together.

Cluster and shell are not interchangeable. The "shell" mentioned in Cluster munition refers to the enclosure; it's not the same thing as an artillery shell.

Cluster munitions bomblets don't have flechettes, they use fragments. The explosive needed to accelerate an object in a bomblet-sized device to lethal velocities would fragment a flechettes into bits. Flechettes often fragment when they hit a person. Cluster munitions bomblets use shrapnel, not flechettes.

Artillery rounds with flechettes use a small explosive charge to release/disperse the flechettes from the shell; the explosive does not impart any significant velocity to the flechette. Otherwise it would fragment the flechettes.

An artillery piece a gun. Military call rifles "rifles" and artillery pieces "guns". Naval cannons are refereed to as guns.

A "Flechette shell" is fired from a gun and is not a cluster munition. The words "flechette" and "cluster" need to be together. Otherwise it's wp:SYNTHESIS which is not acceptable on Wikipedia. See wp:BRD before restoring. (forgot to sign) Adakiko (talk) 19:09, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

There is no combination of articles to present a new thesis, the connection is in the single source that was presented. See WP:What_SYNTH_is_not#SYNTH_is_not_explanation Edencardim (talk) 19:56, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

You are claiming that the artillery shells and flechette shells are not the same thing. However, the guardian source cited in the flechette article contains this (cited verbatim):

Dozens of civilians who died during the Russian occupation of the Ukrainian city of Bucha were killed by TINY METAL ARROWS FROM SHELLS of a type fired by Russian ARTILLERY, forensic doctors have said.

These small metal darts are contained in tank or field gun shells. Each shell can contain up to 8,000 fléchettes. Once fired, SHELLS burst when a timed fuse detonates and EXPLODES above the ground.

FLÉCHETTES, typically between 3cm and 4cm in length, release from the SHELL and disperse in a conical arch about 300m wide and 100m long. Edencardim (talk) 20:03, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Notice of edit warring

You need to discuss this, get wp:consensus, then make the change. See wp:BRD
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Flechette. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Adakiko (talk) 19:11, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

I have not reverted the change, I have changed the text. Edencardim (talk) 19:14, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

You are implying that the Ukrainians are using "flechette shells". The article makes no such connection. Making such a connection is wp:SYNTHESIS. The photo's caption states "dart from a flechette shell". It does not state that the Ukrainians are using them; nor that flechettes are in cluster munitions. It does state that the Ukrainians are using cluster munitions. Again. cluster munitions don't use flechettes. A bomblet's explosive charge would fragment the flechettes, turning them into shrapnel. Maybe add this to the cluster munition article, but it doesn't belong in the flechette article.

It appears to me that the photo is unrelated to the article.

Please wp:BRD. This conversation should go in talk:flechette, not here. Adakiko (talk) 19:27, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

You are standing by an incorrect claim that the term "flechette shell" can only be used in the context of a hand gun and not as the description of a cluster munition. I have presented many articles which use the term "flechette shell" as a specialization of "cluster munition" and "cluster bomb". I fail to see why the same scrutiny is not applid to the guardian source which is cited in the same article and makes use of the same term in the context of a "cluster bomb".

The AFP source does mention flechettes (which are literaly french for "little darts"), here is the verbatim text:

"These arms are not for destroying buildings, they are uniquely for killing people," the surgeon working in the Kalinin hospital said, refusing to give his name.

"The little darts cause grave injuries," he said. "There have been cases when we found up to 20 or 30 of them in one person."

And another mention in the source clearly cites Ukrainian forces as the wielders of these weapons. It also uses the term "shells" as artillery munition and not as handgun rounds:

Several kilometres from the Kalinin hospital, a local pro-Russian rebel leader at a checkpoint to the next city of Makiyivka showed UNEXEPLODED SHELLS filled with sharp two-centimetre-long fragments to AFP. "This shell hit Makiyivka. Other similar ones have been falling on neighbourhoods near the Donetsk airport in almost daily artillery attacks," said the 40-year-old rebel named Alexei.

He said that Ukrainian forces have pounded the city from outlying positions with cluster munitions "since the beginning of the war," launching them with Grad and Uragan truck-mounted systems.

Given all of the above, this information DOES belong under the flechette article. And it was you who started the edit war and the talk on my page which is the incorrect place for such a discussion. I will not allow your incorrect information to polute my page indiscriminately. Edencardim (talk) 19:45, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Discuss on talk:Flechette. Also, see gun for what can be called a gun. Adakiko (talk) 20:19, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much for discussing this on talk:flechette! I need to read this more wp:Wikipedia is not about winning. I do wp:RCP and was presented your edit. That's how I got involved. Please take such things to the talk pages sooner. You can use {{ping}} to alert the person(s) who should be involved in the discussion. ping is rather problematic, so make sure you get an alert telling you that the notification was sent.

BTW: Warning messages may be removed. WP:BLANKING Cheers Adakiko (talk) 21:31, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

It appears after your last edits that someone had clear POV views on flechette! Adakiko (talk) 21:34, 26 April 2022 (UTC)