User talk:Fandezamora/Zamora (pianist)

Zamora needs attention

Dear admins,

Please, I request the inclusion, disambiguation, and protection of Zamora because there is a Venezuelan pianist, composer and writer, called Alejandro Zamora (his artistic name is Zamora, and he is not known by his first name).

Another people with last name Zamora is known by both, his first and last name.

So, the Venezuelan artist should point to Zamora because his artistic name coincides exactly with this name, and the Zamora disambiguation page should point for the other people.

About his inclusion, there are an old debate about him that have 2 years old when he was not so notable like nowadays and nobody did nothing again to include him in Wikipedia. Actually he has succeded on the United States and you can find his works on notable online and retail music & book stores.

Note about the request of indefinite protection:

Some days ago the page was created by another fan of Zamora and it was vandalized by people coming constantly. Another admin probably saw the old debate and ended deleting and protecting the page.

So, please I request the revision of inclusion of this artist, his disambiguation & protection, and once created the page, please protect it at least during a time.

p.s. Sorry for my english, but its not my native language.

p.s.2 The Wikipedia entry is still showing in the google cache:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:I47c7Hkyt08J:en.wikipedia.org/%3Ftitle%3DZamora+zamora+oasis+instrumental&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1

Thanks. --Fandezamora (talk) 23:13, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

That's not the way it works. There is no article for Alejandro Zamora. If in the future there is one, it can be titled Zamora (pianist) and added to the disambiguation page. – ukexpat (talk) 22:06, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

He is not only a pianist, he is a composer and writer too. However, if disambiguation is not posibble, Zamora (New age pianist) or (pianist) should be ok only by the fact that he is known more for his piano music, than by his books?

--Fandezamora (talk) 22:24, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alejandro Zamora, for the reason there is no article currently. Kevin (talk) 22:09, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

OK. So please tell what is the right procedure in order to include him in Wikipedia.

Thanks. --Fandezamora (talk) 22:14, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

The best approach is to create the article as a sub page, something like User:Fandezamora/Zamora (pianist). You will be able to work on it in user space without fear of it being deleted. I have created that subpage for you. Please also read WP:YFA, WP:BIO and WP:RS. Once the page is ready for the mainspace, it can moved there.  – ukexpat (talk) 23:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

OK. I did copy & paste of the original Wikipedia entry, and fixed some grammatical errors.

So, please tell me now what is the second step for publishing it out of my user space, on the Zamora disambiguation page.

Thanks- --Fandezamora (talk) 23:32, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Just a very gentle point here: Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Alejandrozamora. I would hope that the episode won't be repeated and this is a different person who is here to contribute positively to the encyclopedia by following guidelines and creating valuable content that adheres to said guidelines. §FreeRangeFrog 23:48, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Sure, I am here to politely discuss where to place this artist on the enciclopedia and for this reason I am requesting admin assistance in order to do the right procedures. --Fandezamora (talk) 23:58, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Excellent. We do always try to assume good faith and welcome all contributions. §FreeRangeFrog 00:00, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

OK. fine.

How I said previously, I did copy & paste of the original Wikipedia entry and the article is ready now for the main space, so please tell me now what is the next step for publishing it out of my user space, on the Zamora disambiguation page (and for protecting it indefinetely against vandals).

Thanks again- --Fandezamora (talk) 00:06, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Sure. Before we do that though, have you addressed the issues for which the original article was deleted? I.e., if the subject did not meet the notability guidelines (I assume those would be WP:MUSIC), does he/she meet them now? §FreeRangeFrog 00:23, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Sure. You can read his references or search his albums or books on Amazon.com. --Fandezamora (talk) 00:57, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

The references in the draft do not establish notability as required by WP:BIO and WP:MUSIC - you need "significant coverage" in reliable sources. – ukexpat (talk) 01:19, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

There are a lot of reliable third party references:

1. Several references of cultural government agencies of Venezuela 2. The database of books and authors of Venezuela. 3. Newspapers, official biographies and blogs.

And finally the most reliable third party source: Amazon.com

What more he needs? There are a lot of other artist with less references published on Wikipedia. --Fandezamora (talk) 01:34, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

None of those sources you cite would be considered reliable or valid in any way. To start with, for example, if you're claiming that the subject has published books and you're providing a reference to that, you need to link to the publications, not to the website of the national library or to the CENAL. The other is a blog, a few don't even work and the rest are links to your own website. Go ahead and source everything correctly. Yo hablo Español perfectamente y puedo evaluar si tus citas y ligas a publicaciones u otros recursos en línea se considerarian válidos bajo los reglamentos de Wikipedia. §FreeRangeFrog 01:45, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

OK. no problem / no problema,

you can go to the book database and search the isbn of his book (please note that this is the book database, the music sheets books containing ismn's are not listed there. So you will need to contact the ismn agency for that because this agency does not have an online database. anyway the music sheet books are listed on amazon.com

And about your worries with the official governmment links, there is the procedure to search in the national agency of venezuelan books and authors:

go to: http://www.cenal.gob.ve/

click the "isbn en linea" logo

click now "registered books" at the bottom of the page

you can be now redirected to the search engine:

i thought that its not possible a direct link with the results, for this reason i published like reference the database url only.

however you can try this link:

http://isbnvzla.no-ip.info/site_isbn/buscador.php?mode=buscar&code=&tit_nombre=thoughts&col_nombre=zamora&tit_IDmateria=&t_idiomas=&tit_date_apar=&D_sigP=%3D --Fandezamora (talk) 02:15, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

This should probably be continued at User_talk:Fandezamora/Zamora. Kevin (talk) 02:34, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Im copying & pasting all the discussion again for reference. --Fandezamora (talk) 02:38, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

And I moved it to the talk page of the relevant subpage. – ukexpat (talk) 03:27, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that we should to focus now this discussion about the disambiguation page, because I think that it is not correct to list him like Zamora (pianist) when he is not only a pianist. --Fandezamora (talk) 03:38, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing to discuss on that - I can guarantee that you will never get consensus to change the disam page into an article page about Zamora. As I explained above, the way to handle this, assuming the draft article is ever moved to article space, is with a disambiguating title as described in WP:DISAMBIGUATION with a link to it on the disam page. So for the moment I suggest you expend your efforts on improving the draft article, because in its current form, it will not survive in mainspace. – ukexpat (talk) 04:50, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Please, don't worry about that.

I am happy to know that we are having a high-class discussion here between polite persons and admins-

However I would like to listen another opinions because like I said previously, Zamora is not only a pianist and I think that publish him like "Zamora (pianist)" is not very correct.

In my opinion a page called "Zamora (disambiguation)" should have all the articles making reference to the term "Zamora", including to "Zamora" himself.

About your worries with the draft, I am going to review and update some Venezuelan government office links like the official database of books and authors of Venezuela (C.E.N.A.L.) with a direct link to the search results (and thank you to the sysops for updating the references of my original draft, and for doing some grammar check :)

However, I think that the article is almost ready to main space, and how I said previously, I have saw a LOT of another artists with less or poor references published on this enciclopedia...

Anyway I will continue to collaborate in order to put this article on the main space where it must be published, following your policies and guidelines.

Thanks again for your help- --Fandezamora (talk) 22:50, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

We can come up with a suitable disambiguating title, but it has to be short and does not have to describe all his facets, so it could be Zamora (musician) or something else similar. When it is moved to the mainspace, we can add a link to it on the Zamora page. That's what a disambiguation page is for. – ukexpat (talk) 23:07, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer.

In my opinion this term (musician) is very generic and how I said in my previous worry about (pianist) it does not show that he is a writer and/or composer too. It is not about his multiple facets and to use only one like reference, it is about following the official guidelines. So, I will like to read this with detail:

Naming the disambiguation page

See also: WP:Naming conventions

The title of a disambiguation page is the ambiguous term itself, provided there is no primary topic for that term. If there is a primary topic, then the tag "(disambiguation)" is added to the name of the disambiguation page, as in Jupiter (disambiguation).

Source: Wikipedia:DISAMBIGUATION

Lets to take this example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_(disambiguation).

There are several persons/things called Jupiter, including the main topic, the planet Jupiter itself.

So, there are several persons/things with the term Zamora, and there is only one person/thing that is known by this exact name equal to the planet Jupiter (I am speaking about Zamora, the pianist), and anothers known by his first and last name, or by any other addendum, so my question is: if it is the same case, it is not wise to create a page called Zamora (disambiguation)?

Thanks- --Fandezamora (talk) 01:23, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

IMHO that's not necessary but feel free to discuss it on Talk:Zamora. – ukexpat (talk) 04:36, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that it is redundant to have to attend 2 discussions of the same thing on different pages, so I would like to know if we can solve all about Zamora here or I have to copy & paste this on Talk:Zamora too?

Btw, I finished updating the C.E.N.A.L. link with a direct link to the results. However I liked the old reference link with the url pointing to www.cenal.gob.ve because the database is hosted in a dynamic ip service called no-ip.info, and it is no very hard to reach the database from the main page of the C.E.N.A.L.

--Fandezamora (talk) 05:11, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Fandezamora is a sock puppet of Alejandrozamora, who has also created Zfans and Luisadelvalle, all of them already blocked in eswiki. Locos ~ epraix Beastepraix 18:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Zamorafan too Locos ~ epraix Beastepraix 19:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

This comment is false. I come here to discuss politely his publication in the main space following the policies and guidelines, because it is impossible to have a polite discussion in the eswiki.

The page was moved here by the same admins to a secure editing place by fear of being deleted, and it is being updated and maintained for the same admins of enwiki.

Additionally, how I've said previously, I come here to discuss politely his publication in the main space following the right policies and guidelines, and I am asking for constructive comments and for polite treatments.

Thanks- --Fandezamora (talk) 21:16, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I have been as constructive as I can, but you appear to be ignoring my advice. – ukexpat (talk) 03:41, 3 March 2009 (UTC)