User talk:Faustian/archive1

Welcome

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  --Irpen 18:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Kiev Offensive

I think you raise some very good points on the talk page. Please, don't hesitate to be bold and add more content into the artice itself. It is a godo idea to reference every single fact with the source (i.e. [Subtelny, 2001] or [Babel, year]), especially if there are disputed by some editors. Referenced addition is much harder to remove - as the other side has to prove it is either irrelevant or provide sources showing that other sources are doubtful.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:23, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

Any anon should be able to help, but the quickest way to get attention of somebody would probably be Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

3RR

You are in danger of violating the three-revert rule on a page. Please cease further reverts or you may be blocked from further editing.

I understand that edit-warring against different IP-users pushing strong POV edits can be frustrating, please obey the 3 revert rule. I have semiprotected Ukrainian Insurgent Army article, so there should be less sock-puppeting now abakharev 23:21, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the semi-protection. I would like to point out, however, that my reverts were made against a vandal to the article. regards Faustian 15:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Allow me

I, Irpen, hereby belatedly give you this Exceptional Newcomer Award for your clever edits and comments, particularly, for your contribution towards the Ukraine related articles. While we at times disagreed, and no doubt will again :), it is pleasant to deal with good faith and well-informed editors whose contributions are useful for the Wikipedia. --Irpen 07:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! Although my contributions were made during a lull at work and may be sparse for a while... Faustian 15:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I, Piotrus, hereby second Irpen and give you another Exceptional Newcomer Award for the very same reasons. Your contributions are appreciated by many and we hope it is just the begining of your adventure with Wikipedia.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:21, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Massacres of Poles in Volhynia

Hi, thanks for explanding on the background of the events in the article. One thing I find slightly disturbing, however, that is the sentence stating that "Ukrainian libraries and reading rooms were burned down by Polish mobs". Was it a common practice or was it incidental ? Also, regarding the Orthodox churches being destroyed, who did this ? Was it Polish administration ? or Catholic Church ? or just Polish people ? Thanks. --Lysy^talk 17:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how common the practice was. It was common enough that Subtelny in his book referred specifically to cultural institutions, while elsewhere I have heard of this happening to libraries and reading rooms. A book at home (I am now at work) contains specific figures on churches and schools and maybe libraries also. The local Polish adminsitration (often acting against the wishes of Pilsudski's central government) was trying to "Polonise" the place and encouraged local Polish hooligans to prevent Ukrainian teachers and activists from teaching peasants how to read and write in Ukrainian. From the Polish side, they may have felt with some justification that the reading rooms and libraries were sources of anti-Polish propaganda. Of course, there was a cycle there in which Polish oppression played a major role in increasing anti-Polish ideas. regards Faustian 17:47, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

You're right of course. I'd only appreciate if you could double check (when you have the time) whether destroying churches or libraries were just individual incidents or not. I susupect (or hope?) that there's not been a common practice of destroying Ukraininan libraries. Or maybe they were just closed down ? Anyway, it's good to have this explained, but we need to be careful not to generalise too easily. --Lysy^talk 17:58, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll check the other book tomorrow (I didn't bring my entire library to work). Subtelny's book, in front of me, states "...the Polish government insisted on the use of Polish in church services and began a campaign, accompanied by the widespread destruction of Orthodox churches, to convert the Orthodox to Catholicism." (pg. 441). "When Polish mobs destroyed Ukrainian cultural institutions, they often did so in secret collusion with local Polish officials" (pg. 432). The number of Ukrainian schools in Volhynia was reduced from 440 to 8 (pg. 439). Hmm..actually he includes the figures for the churches destroyed. I'll include it in the article. Faustian 18:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I recently got a book on the Ethnic cleansing that happened in Volhynia by Serhiychuk who is a historian publishing out of the Kyiv Unversity. It is not as clear cut as the article makes it out to be. The article needs to be rewritten in its entirety to give both sides of the picture.

Obviously there was a lot of lead up. Post 1923 Polish administration did an about face regarding its promises to the Ukrainian population. Ukrainians could only get a 3 grades of eductaion. Poles could get 8. The Ukrainian courses at the University were closed. Prosvitas (reading rooms and libraries) were detroyed particularly during the pacifications of the 30's. There was a gradual esculation in hundreds of things - like the census figures which were altered. Siwicki was born in Volyn during the war was interned in Siberia by the Soviets and then released to fight in the Polish army where he lost a leg (his son sings in my choir) in his book gives an analysis of the census where 99% of the village is marked as being Polish yet 84% were orthodox - an indication of some inaccuracy because the Orthodox were considered Ukrainian and not Polish. There has been alos of esculation by inaccurate photos (I remember the photos which were ascribed to the actions of UPA of children wrapped in barbed wire which later turned out to have been gypsy children murdered by their mother in 1926. The ascribed barbed wire was bends in the photo. - This was made into monument which now stands in Przmysl). An article like this needs to be meticulously documented and carefully written. There are so many interested parties willing to enflame both sides that it needs to be done casrefully, but it needs to be done well. Bandurist 18:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Предлагаю мировую

I think we got of on the wrong foot with each other on Zaporozhian Host. Anyway I wanted to thank you for your NPOVing of History of Christianity in Ukraine. I think this article has great potential to reach FA status. It needs a few more sections on Russian Empire times, as well as Second World War times. Also the Old Believers and Roman Catholic sections need to be expanded. Finally all of this needs to be imaged and consicely referenced, and then have a preview. Seeing your enthusiasm there I think we WILL be able to achieve this. Btw what is your status on Metro? (I am asking because...) --Kuban Cossack 23:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

The metro article looks wonderful. I am not an expert on that , of course, though I know Moscow's downtown system - the best metro system in the world - like the back of my hand. I apologize if my tone ever sounded harsh and respect the fact that although our points of views differ (significantly) you have a lot of knowledge to offer. regards Faustian 13:18, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Well basically me and User:DDima are to build a whole portal (hopefully) on all ex-USSR transport systems, feel free to join in. If you have a digital camera...and happen to be passing one of those cities, don't waste time and get shooting. --Kuban Cossack 14:33, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Petliura and elections, revisited

Could you comment at Talk:Kiev_Offensive#Ukrainian_loyalties? You know much more about this issue then me.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 21:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I've made the comments in the discussion section. Regards, Faustian 13:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Tnx for your continuing efforts to NPOV the KO article. Perhaps you could try your hand at PSW article too, where we have another set of controversies involving Ukrainian participation?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:00, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

History of Christianity in Ukraine

You have an e-mail, I want to send you something. --Kuban Cossack 11:03, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is my e-mail address: faustian17@hotmail.com. Looking forward to receiving the e-mail. regards Faustian 13:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Faustian,

dlaczego ty jesteś zainteresowany tym żeby z bandytów i siepaczy z UPA robić bohaterów ? 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I am interested primarily for purposes of historical accuracy - I have been quite clear and open about the evil acts committed by some UPA units but this does not excuse exagerations or innacuracies. During the war, most of my relatives who fought were officers in the Polish, German or Soviet militaries. The only exception was my father's cousin, the daughter of a Lwow university professor and member of the Polish noble family de Nalecz, who died while serving in the ranks of UPA.Faustian 13:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Numbers

Re: [1]. Army numbers of Petlura: [2] - but I cannot find the 2000 number for the man joining Bolsheviks.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You're right - 2,000 was Petlioura's, 4,000 were Galicians, some of whom then joined the Red Galician Army in order to sace themselves. My mistake. Faustian 03:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Please do provide full citations. If books, page numbers, if Encyclopedia's, the article's name. TIA, --Irpen 20:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I try to do that, in that case I was only a bit sloppy because Subtelny mentioned the 4,000 Galician soldiers in the same or next sentence as 2,000 Petliura's soldiers. Faustian 20:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

That one is settled. I mean when you refer to the Enc. Ukr., give the article name every time. Also, Petrushevych did not just go to exile. Petlyura dismissed him from Directoria first. You removed that info. --Irpen 20:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I removed the info stating that he was expelled. My sources all indicated that he left voluntarily.

On a separate account, when using sources we should keep in mind their strengths and weaknesses. Usually, sources like Subtelny and Margosci are of high regard. The Kubiyovych's EU is a somewhat different story due to the complications with the neutrallity of its main editor (see the talk page of his article for more). We can generally trust the hard facts he cites, such as dates and numbers, because he is unquestionably a serious academic. At the same time, his interpretations should be taken with a grain of salt as he was not exactly an unbiased figure in Ukrainian history. I am not suggesting that his works are unusable. Even the Soviet Encyclopedias are usable to a some degree. All I am saying that we should be more careful when using Kubiyovych, comparing to using modern respected western scholars who write on Ukrainian history such as Subtelny, Magosci and Wilson. --Irpen 20:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. However your comparison in the discussuion section of the 14th Waffen SS Galicia Division to NKVD battalions is unfair (if Kubiyovych was involved in organizing police battalions or such, it would have been a different story). I am aware of how the 14th Waffen-SS is perceived among ex-Soviet people. The reality is that it was not much different than Polish or Ukrainian legions within the German or Austrian militaries prior to World War I, Polish volunteers in Napoleon's army, etc. His involvement proves that he was a historical player rather than a detached observer, which is an important consideration as you rightly observe, and his opinions should be viewed carefully. But any controversy is about his actions during the war seem to be more about his detractors' falling prey to false information.Faustian 23:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

That "any controversy is about his actions during the war seem to be more about his detractors' falling prey to false information" is just your POV to which you are entitled of course. The problem, howver, is more global than Kubiyovych not being neutral to the WW2 events because he was involved in them. It is important to remember Kubiyovych's personal views were strongly anti-Soviet and, likely, anti-Russian as well. He always was and remains an iconic figure of the Ukrainian Nationalist community. At the same time, his instincts of a real academic, were strong enough so that we should not disqualify his work. We should just use it carefully. Dates and numbers are 100% usable. Opinions and conclusions should be separated from them. This does not apply to Subtelny and Magosci who are western mainstream scholars with none of personal involvement in the anti-Soviet and anti-Russian movement, also professor of respected universities.

I will leave the discussion about SS-Galicia aside for now.

Please add article names when you cite Kubiyobych's encyclopedia. --Irpen 23:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

In terms of Kubiyovych's anti-Sovietism - it should no more disqualify him as a scholar's anti-Nazism shoyuld disqualify him for scholarship involving Nazis. Certainly, if the scholar in question was personally involved in the struggle than one must be careful, but not because of his distaste for the enemy. On the other hand, his personal involvement in the Ukrainian Galician Army and later also make him a rich source of information, having witnessed those events first-hand. There frankly appeared to be more bias in for example the citations from Debo (in particualr, labelling the Ukrainian participation in the Kiev offensive as insignifiant contradicts facts provided by numerous other historians such as Subtleny) than in Kubiyovych's work.

About the hostility towards SS-Galician, I was referring to your correct statement about the general ex-Soviet Ukrainian population's hostile attitude towards the Divison, which is rooted in the ignorance about it learned when growing up in the USSR. Just as most Americans now have a different judgment of Native Americans who resisted European settlement and killed Custer, hiopefully eventually people from Eastern Ukraine will have a more realistic attitude towards UPA or SS-Galician. Faustian 03:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Honestely do you really think people will change their attitude towards those who were butchering their grandparents and collaborating with Nazis? Nothing can take away the pride of the young in their grandparents, those Red Army soldiers who did a holly deed in wiping fascism of the face of the earth, and all the filth that went with it. I doubt in 100 years the attitude will change at all. There is no such thing as a more "realistic" attitude towards murderers and killers. --Kuban Cossack 11:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The words above do not apply to either UPA or SS-Galizien. They are spoken from ignorance. Soviet people have no more reason to hate SS-Galizien or UPA than western Ukrainian people to hate regular Red Army soldiers. Poles have more gripes against UPA, but even there attitudes seem to be changing, just as most modern American think differently about the Indian "savages" who once wiped out settlers (jncluding children).Faustian

Ok, let's save this for relevant article's talk pages but for now please add the names of the articles in EncUkr to which your references point. --Irpen 04:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Could you provide citations for requests about Ukrainian numbers in PSW? Otherwise we'll have to remove the information.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:41, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Happy New Year!

File:1953 S Novym Godom.jpg

Happy New Year! (Ukrainian: З Новим Роком!, Russian: С Новым Годом!). I wish you in 2007 to be spared of the real life troubles so that you will continue to care about Wikipedia. We will all make it a better encyclopedia! I also wish things here run smoothly enough to have our involvement in Wikipedia space at minimum, so that we can spend more time at Main. --Irpen

Thank you Irpen! Z Novym Godom!!!Faustian 20:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Rusyns

Hi, what are your thoughts on this edit? Khoikhoi 09:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Provided that the original numbers are referenced, I have no objection to adding up already referenced numbers. regards, Faustian 17:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Христосъ Воскресе!

Ура! :) --Irpen

File:Eastereggs.jpg

Всього найкращого! --Irpen

Russophiles

Volhynia and Bessarabia were the parts of the Russian empire, and the article is about the movement in the Habsburgh empire. Can I delete irrelevant info about Volhynia and Bessarabia? --Russianname 10:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to be the right thing to do. regards Faustian 13:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Russians in Ukraine

I thought you'd want to look at this article :) -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh boy! Thanks for bringing it to my attention...Faustian 19:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind me adding a comment on your main page, its just the red-linking confuses people, and yeah, do please join the article. --Kuban Cossack 21:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I am rather busy (buying a house) for the next several weeks or months and therefore won't contribute much...Faustian 12:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Wiktor Poliszczuk

Wiktor Poliszczuk has been proposed for deletion. An editor felt this person might not be notable enough for an article. Please review Wikipedia:Notability (people) for the relevant guidelines. If you can improve the article to address these concerns, please do so.

If no one objects to the deletion within five days by removing the "prod" template, the article may be deleted without further discussion. If you remove the prod template, the article will not be deleted, but if an editor is still not satisfied that it meets Wikipedia guidelines, it may still be sent to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. NickelShoe (Talk) 13:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I've removed that tag, because Poliszczuk is actually an important, often referenced figure among anti-Ukrainian Poles. I think that his biography is important, at the very least for those coming across references of his work in other articles such as this one or [[14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Galizien (1st Ukrainian)

|this one]]. Faustian 13:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Kuban Kazak

For fixing my userpage...Faustian 18:06, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits to Russian language in Ukraine.

You claim that you have some sources. So please quote them. Then, do not add any irrelevant information 'Rus’ka mova', Ukrainian self-identity, Little Russia and all other dubious and strange things. --Russianname 16:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

• • Пожалуйста, ознакомьтесь с полным текстом Валуевского циркуляра и Эмского указа[3] [4]. Это поможет избежать набивших осномину толкований этих документов как запретов украинского языка. Кстати, легко заметить, что Валуев от своего имени глупостей про то, что украинского языка нет, нигде не говорит; а те, кто так его толкуют просто лгут, о чем надо специально сказать в соответствующей статье. Документы говорят именно о том, о чем они говорят. Валуевский указ запрещал печатанье книг научного и религиозного характера, этот запрет продлился год и не выполнялся, что я легко докажу. Эмский указ запрещал ввоз украиноязычной литературы из Австро-Венгерской империи, но не по причине ее украиноязычности, а как мера по борьбе с социалистическими веяниями. Далее, если этого не хватит, я вам приведу длинную библиографию украинских изданий, осуществленных в России в период действия указа, этот список составил Дмитрий Дорошенко (которому очень далеко до любой политкорректности и очень близко к патологической русофобии). Вообще, и украинский язык, и современный украинский народ, и современная украинская государственность - это все плод действия сначала Российской империи, в которой все понемного развивалось, затем Советского Союза, где, наконец, все украинское получило поддержку, включая и государственность в форме УССР. Поэтому все нападки на русских в этом плане просто странны. С уважением, --Russianname 16:54, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

My sources are from works by respected, established historians such as Orest Subtelny and Paul Magosci. While your claims, above, are interesting I would like to see references to them from legitimate historians rather than from original research.

The information on history and background is relevant and necessary. The history of the Russian language in Ukraine needs no justification to be included in the article. Historical phenomena, including the ban on the Ukrainian language, are a part of that history insofar as they explain part of the reason for the Russian language's historical dominance there. They are also necessary context for the discriminatory anti-Russian countermeasures adopted recently by Ukrainian authorities. Describing anti-Russian language legislation and actions without mentioning Ems and other historical restrictions on the Ukrainian language is, frankly, somewhat analogous writing about the Soviet conquest of Germany without mentioning Barbarrossa. It presents only half the truth, an innacurate portrait.Faustian 17:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

• • Orest Subtelny is not a source. He is author of a book for reading. He is not a historian researcher. And there wer no bans of Ukrainian language. During the "ban" the Ukrianian literature and theater flourished. So please do not add info about Ukrainian history here, this is not appropriate article:

• • • • Of course Subtelny is a historical researcher and a legitimate source. Please read about things more carefully before commenting on them. and hisotircal backgorund on this topic is important.Faustian 14:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• For much of the nineteenth century the Austrian authorities favoured Polish culture, but the Ukrainians were relatively free to partake in their own cultural pursuits in Galicia and Bukovyna, where Ukrainian was widely used in education and in official documents. The suppression by Russia retarded the literary development of the Ukrainian language in Dnieper Ukraine, but there was a constant exchange with Galicia, and many works were published under Austria and smuggled to the east.

The name 'Ukrajins’ka mova' Ukrainian language became accepted by much of the Ukrainian literary class during the late nineteenth century under Russia . By the time of the Russian Revolution of 1917 and the collapse of Austro-Hungary in 1918, the former 'Ruthenians' or 'Little Russians' were ready to openly develop a body of national literature, to institute a Ukrainian-language educational system, and to form an independent state, named Ukraine (the Ukrainian People's Republic, shortly joined by the West Ukrainian People's Republic). However, in the Russian Empire expressions of Ukrainian culture and especially language were repeatedly persecuted, for fear that a self-aware Ukrainian nation would threaten the unity of the Empire. In 1847 Taras Shevchenko was arrested and exiled, and banned from writing obceneties against the empress who redeemed him from serfdom and painting pornography, for political reasons. In 1863, tsarist interior minister Pyotr Valuyev proclaimed in his decree that "there never has been, is not, and never can be a separate Little Russian language". A following ban on Ukrainian books led up to Alexander II's secret Ems Ukaz, which prohibited the publication and importation of most Ukrainian-language books, public performances and lectures, and even the printing of Ukrainian texts accompanying musical scores. A period of leniency after 1905 was followed by another strict ban in 1914, which also affected Russian-occupied Galicia. --Russianname 09:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your interest in the Russian language in Ukraine. Last time we had a discussion at the talk page you noted that changes should be made not by way of exclusion but by way of addition, if I remember it correctly. However, since that time the biased slant increased and indeed through addition of one-sided pictures. It appears the authors of the article have a clear agenda and it is certainly not a well-balanced article. This article is being used by some to vent their political preferences. I am afraid it needs serious rewriting, and some images have to be deleted. The previous approach of balancing it through additon didn't work as some people keep flooding it with one-sided pictures and text. Hope we can work together on improving it. --Hillock65 18:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

RFC/USER Russianname

A Request for Comment on User:Russianname has been filed. As user, who had experience of dealing with this individual your comments on this RfC would be appreciated. Thank you. --Hillock65 14:35, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for responding so promptly to RfC. Your comment is very important and is very much appreciated, however, it seemes to be out of place. With your permission I will move into the part Other users who endorse this summary. Please let me know if you object to that move. I am just trying to organize the RfC properly. If you have anything more to add you can use section Outside view, where you can explain your dealings with this user, if you wish to. Thanks again. --Hillock65 14:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

No, I have nothing more to add. Faustian 15:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)