User talk:Fenix down/Archive 19
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ASD Gradese
Hi, the page of ASD Gradese has been deleted, but you removed its name from Template:FVG teamlist. IMHO it's not right because Gradese played in Serie D: in 1955-56 season.Ame71 (talk) 19:31, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, I can't see that edit, if I removed a listing that should be 5her, I'm sorry, please add it back, if I removed it from a navbox then it probably best it stays out as not a useful and to navigation. Fenix down (talk) 20:01, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
AFD Close
I thought I'd give you the courtesy of at least asking for a more substantive explanation of your closure of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Luca Soccer Club (2nd nomination) before I take it to DRV. An out-of-process nomination in contravention of WP:RENOM and a discussion full of references to an inapplicable guideline and a source analysis that was comprehensively debunked, against multiple explanations that the subject meets WP:GNG, with sources that were uncontested. As S Marshall pointed out, it's probably going to DRV anyway. St★lwart111 23:50, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
- Clear consensus in the discussion to delete. Analysis of sources presented to support GNG was not in favour of keeping. Overwhelming votes and comments indicate this is nor a notable subject. If people present sources for GNG but other editors say they don't meet GNG, consensus is that they don't meet GNG. Whether you think the first AfD should have gone to DRV or not what is not in doubt is that this gng produced a clear consensus. Fenix down (talk) 19:58, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- Also a second thought would be that you might think the first afd should have gone to DRV. You may be right, I'd have relisted it if I had seen it. Bottom line though is that DRV would probably have resulted in a relisting and we seem to have had exactly that. I'm not sure what outcome you think might occur? Fenix down (talk) 20:10, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- Nfitz presented 5 sources in support of the subject meeting GNG, expressly in addition to the ones referenced in the first AFD. None of those were disputed. Henriklars presented an "analysis" of sources which was deeply flawed, and people said so, and he claimed the subject failed GNG on that basis. That analysis and conclusion was disputed by several contributors. A number of the delete contributions didn't reference policy or guidelines, in fact some referenced things expressly not in guidelines ("we don't know player names!"). There was no consensus for deletion, and the discussion should have been relisted or closed as no consensus, especially given the nature of the nomination in the first place. This was system-gaming at its worst. St★lwart111 00:02, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
- And I won't even go into the personal attacks, aspersions, bad faith, and WP:POINTY contributions. St★lwart111 00:02, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
- The problem is that 9 people commented that the subject was not notable and only 3 people argued that it should be kept. In such an instance, the consensus is clear that the subject is not thought to be notable. I can't wade in and start disregarding other people's opinions. There were repeated comments throughout the discussion that sources presented did not support GNG. The original AfD was taken DRV and closed by a separate admin as unnecessary because a properly developed discussion was taking place in this AfD. The exact process per guidelines may not have been followed, but the outcome is still good, namely that a more detailed deletion rational was presented in this discussion, a better analysis of sources was presented and a wider number of editors were involved. I'm sorry you feel that sources presented were sufficient for GNG, other contributors do not and clearly stated this throughout the discussion. There's nothing more to do here. Fenix down (talk) 10:09, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
- You beat me to it. Please relist this for further debate. It's not a good close - and in such a debate, where it went to AFD just days earlier, there should to be an extensive closing statement. Nfitz (talk) 21:04, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- No, this is not a controversial close. Yes the original AfD went to DRV but that was closed by a different individual on the reasonable grounds that this second AFD was already underway and generating a good discussion. The consensus was clear that editors feel the subject is not notable, sources were discussed in detail and rejected as meeting GNG. Even when this was challenged there were continuing delete arguments throughout the whole time the AfD was listed. Fenix down (talk) 21:31, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- I disagree with you and I feel that, taking into account all the circumstances and surrounding facts, this was a controversial close as well as a poor outcome. Like my fellow editors above, I too invite you to reconsider this.—S Marshall T/C 09:33, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, there's clear consensus, 9 to 3 in favour of deleting with clear arguments presented. I can't simply ride roughshod over that sort of outcome. Had it 6 to 5 or something much closer then there would have been clear reason to relist, but there simply isn't here. Yes it was a mess that this was renominated so soon after the first nomination, but regardless of that, a much more detailed discussion was had here, as acknowledged in the failed DRV and a new consensus has been achieved. I'm not sure what alternative outcome you expect here? The idea that you can have an AfD where, like this, detailed discussion on both sides takes place, andthere is a 9 to 3 view to delete, but a closing admin somehow decides there either is not consensus or consensus is to keep is simply ridiculous. Fenix down (talk) 10:19, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- I join issue with you on all of those points. I'm totally unconcerned about the ratio of keeps to deletes, and I'm much more concerned about the abuse of procedure than you are. I find the discussion very poorly detailed, with a lot of credence given to (very new editor) Henriklars' analysis of the sources and a much too-abrupt dismissal of Nfitz'. It's striking how many of those "delete" !voters had a short or indeed very short contribution history. In my view, there's nothing ridiculous at all about a no consensus outcome there; but as I said during the discussion, this is very likely headed to DRV no matter which way it falls.—S Marshall T/C 11:51, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, there's clear consensus, 9 to 3 in favour of deleting with clear arguments presented. I can't simply ride roughshod over that sort of outcome. Had it 6 to 5 or something much closer then there would have been clear reason to relist, but there simply isn't here. Yes it was a mess that this was renominated so soon after the first nomination, but regardless of that, a much more detailed discussion was had here, as acknowledged in the failed DRV and a new consensus has been achieved. I'm not sure what alternative outcome you expect here? The idea that you can have an AfD where, like this, detailed discussion on both sides takes place, andthere is a 9 to 3 view to delete, but a closing admin somehow decides there either is not consensus or consensus is to keep is simply ridiculous. Fenix down (talk) 10:19, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- I disagree with you and I feel that, taking into account all the circumstances and surrounding facts, this was a controversial close as well as a poor outcome. Like my fellow editors above, I too invite you to reconsider this.—S Marshall T/C 09:33, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- Saying that it should be deleted on a 9-3 vote, suggests that you have a fundamental misunderstanding how AFD works. WP:GAFD is clear it's not a vote, but a discussion. Of your 9 "delete votes", 7 of them were right at the beginning, before any reasons to keep it were provided. Then there were 3 keep votes, followed by 2 more deletes, one of which seemed a bit pointy. And that ignores that the previous AFD a few days earlier, was almost a snow keep! I'm not saying the discussion is a keep - but it's clearly a relist. Please do so. Nfitz (talk) 22:30, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- No, this is not a controversial close. Yes the original AfD went to DRV but that was closed by a different individual on the reasonable grounds that this second AFD was already underway and generating a good discussion. The consensus was clear that editors feel the subject is not notable, sources were discussed in detail and rejected as meeting GNG. Even when this was challenged there were continuing delete arguments throughout the whole time the AfD was listed. Fenix down (talk) 21:31, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
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Can you please relist this one. None of the other participants weighed in after my keep - and I thought the link I provided was so overwhelming, that I didn't think that individual references were necessary - especially given some of the Delete votes, clearly did no Before, only spending seconds considering the article, after their previous edit! I'll add some references. Nfitz (talk) 21:07, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- No. Editors had 3 and a half days since your comment and none chipped in with support. The consensus is clear. If you had commented just before the week was up you'd have a point as it could be said that I hadn't allowed time for comment, but you had half the alloted time to seeing if you could get support and you didn't. There's no obligation for editors to respond, especially when they have already clearly said they feel the subject fails GNG. Fenix down (talk) 21:25, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, please relist - not one of the those that supported deletion spoke up. Only the nominator, who surely carries little weight as they indicated they checked 13,000 references in the 2 minutes since their previous Wikipedia comment, and who seems to see AFD as a battleground, rather than a discussion. Nfitz (talk) 22:34, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- Nfitz please could you share some sources that looked good from the Google search that you ran? Please could you also confirm what 'Ahmed Basil' is in Arabic? I don't believe, if memory serves me, that the Ahmed Basil article had an Arabic translation for his name so I was unable to participate in the AfD. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 15:57, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Spiderone I didn't dig too deep into them, as I felt it was pretty obvious from what I was seeing. The Google search] I used was: "أحمد باسل" "كرة القدم" (which I linked in the AFD). I translated his name as "حمد باسل", but that seems too common, so I also added in "كرة القدم" which translates as "football". If I have time later, I'll pull some specific references. I'm sure I could have spent more time providing details - but there was an overwhelming number of AFDs simultaneous created for Iraqi players - and personally, I never had a chance to review them all. (it's a lot easier if you just tag two a minute with Delete - I'm not sure how that's even allowed! I appreciate that you didn't comment without being able to check properly!) Nfitz (talk) 19:52, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Nfitz - the best source that I could find in a quick look was this magazine. Certainly, if something else with a similar level of coverage could be found then it meets the multiple sources requirement and we should look at seeing if the discussion should be reopened or if a draft space copy should be restored or something. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 20:03, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- SpideroneEither way, there should have been a relist to consider the sources - especially given the extreme amount of AFDs that had been listed, and the poor quality of many of the 'hit-and-run' delete votes. Worst case scenario - an article that's been there for a long time lasts an extra week or two. Nfitz (talk) 21:03, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Nfitz - the best source that I could find in a quick look was this magazine. Certainly, if something else with a similar level of coverage could be found then it meets the multiple sources requirement and we should look at seeing if the discussion should be reopened or if a draft space copy should be restored or something. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 20:03, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Spiderone I didn't dig too deep into them, as I felt it was pretty obvious from what I was seeing. The Google search] I used was: "أحمد باسل" "كرة القدم" (which I linked in the AFD). I translated his name as "حمد باسل", but that seems too common, so I also added in "كرة القدم" which translates as "football". If I have time later, I'll pull some specific references. I'm sure I could have spent more time providing details - but there was an overwhelming number of AFDs simultaneous created for Iraqi players - and personally, I never had a chance to review them all. (it's a lot easier if you just tag two a minute with Delete - I'm not sure how that's even allowed! I appreciate that you didn't comment without being able to check properly!) Nfitz (talk) 19:52, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Nfitz please could you share some sources that looked good from the Google search that you ran? Please could you also confirm what 'Ahmed Basil' is in Arabic? I don't believe, if memory serves me, that the Ahmed Basil article had an Arabic translation for his name so I was unable to participate in the AfD. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 15:57, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, please relist - not one of the those that supported deletion spoke up. Only the nominator, who surely carries little weight as they indicated they checked 13,000 references in the 2 minutes since their previous Wikipedia comment, and who seems to see AFD as a battleground, rather than a discussion. Nfitz (talk) 22:34, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
Deletion review for Luca Soccer Club
An editor has asked for a deletion review of Luca Soccer Club. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. —S Marshall T/C 12:14, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
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Edit and undelete a page.
You deleted one of my pages previously. I am currently working on updates for KC NWSL players (now KC Current NWSL) for the 2021-and 2022 seasons and would like to edit and have undeleted the article for Tristin Stuteville as she was signed to the team last month, making her a pro soccer player, adding additional work she has done in the community, additional history on her work as a pro coach at the Division 1 NCAA level, and her upcoming work as a talent scout for Major League soccer's (MLS) NXT program. She will become the first and only female talent scout for the MLS (notable and newsworthy). Coupled with her pro playing career this should meet any previous concerns brought up when discussing the previous deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Athleteskc (talk • contribs) 21:55, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
- Hi, I can see an AfD for this individual. However, I can't just undelete an article. To be honest, there's nothing in what you have said to indicate she is notable by any current guideline, simply being female in a post is not something that makes one notable, and the positions you are saying she will hold are not pnes that normally make someone notable.You are free to create an article in your own draft space however and I would recommend you take this through WP:AFC to get an independent view on your submission. Fenix down (talk) 00:30, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
- Having been signed to a professional team in the top women's league in the world does not qualify? How would that be any different than any other player on an NWSL roster? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Athleteskc (talk • contribs) 18:10, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
- Signing means nothing, all players have to play to be notable per NFOOTBALL. You'd need to provide a source indicate an appearance in a competitive game between two fully professional team. Has she played? If so I'm happy to restore the article to your draft space. Fenix down (talk) 18:15, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
- Having been signed to a professional team in the top women's league in the world does not qualify? How would that be any different than any other player on an NWSL roster? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Athleteskc (talk • contribs) 18:10, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
Perfect, that's the guidance I was looking for . I don't want to spin my wheels with this player and others, like Allie Hess , just to have the pages deleted. I am excited to do the work and contribute, but as I said I don't want to waste my time or anybody else's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Athleteskc (talk • contribs) 18:24, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
- No problem. I restored this thread as, since I'm an admin I think it is good practice for all my threads on my talk page to remain so they are properly archived for future reference. If she plays, let me know and I will restore to your draft page and you can work on the article complete with other people's history and move to mainspace. Fenix down (talk) 21:59, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
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few pages needed
https://int.soccerway.com/teams/bhutan/druk-lhayul/53488/
Like this in bpl (logo on club fb) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.140.236.228 (talk) 21:00, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for the heads up. Tbh I have not been paying much attention to Bhutanese football for a while but can see there have been a number of changes, I'll try to update logos when I can if no one gets in before me. Fenix down (talk) 20:37, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
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Arianna Criscione
Could you return the previously deleted article Arianna Criscione to draft? She's appeared for Italy NT so meets WP:NFOOTY. Seany91 (talk) 19:18, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- Sure, no problem, can you provide a link confirming this. If she has made a full internationall, then I would be happy restoring her straight to the mainspace. Fenix down (talk) 20:35, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- [1], [2] and others all refer to her as former Italy international with caps, and her page on Italian/French WP show her having won three caps for Italy NT between 2011 to 2014. So it appears her English WP article shouldn't have been deleted. Seany91 (talk) 23:25, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Seany91, sorry for the delay. Looking at her appearances the tournaments appear to be invitationals. Can you confirm that they were official sanctioned fifa matches? Happy to take your word for it but I'm not sure myself. I'm presuming so, but not certain. Fenix down (talk) 21:07, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- No worries, though I'm not sure why this matters because WP:NFOOTY doesn't distinguish between caps earned in friendlies or not. Also one of the sources above is directly from FIFA. Seany91 (talk) 07:21, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- It matters because all internationals, friendly or not have to be officially sanctioned Tier 1 matches, which not all invitational tournaments are. the fact that she is described on the FIFA website as an international doesn't confirm this. I'm sure they are but as they are clearly described as invitational tournaments, it would be good to confirm they are offcialt tier 1 matches. Fenix down (talk) 11:49, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- No worries, though I'm not sure why this matters because WP:NFOOTY doesn't distinguish between caps earned in friendlies or not. Also one of the sources above is directly from FIFA. Seany91 (talk) 07:21, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Seany91, sorry for the delay. Looking at her appearances the tournaments appear to be invitationals. Can you confirm that they were official sanctioned fifa matches? Happy to take your word for it but I'm not sure myself. I'm presuming so, but not certain. Fenix down (talk) 21:07, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- [1], [2] and others all refer to her as former Italy international with caps, and her page on Italian/French WP show her having won three caps for Italy NT between 2011 to 2014. So it appears her English WP article shouldn't have been deleted. Seany91 (talk) 23:25, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
Nomination of Bhutan national under-17 football team results for deletion
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Instead of the IP we will show a masked identity. You as an admin will still be able to access the IP. There will also be a new user right for those who need to see the full IPs of unregistered users to fight vandalism, harassment and spam without being admins. Patrollers will also see part of the IP even without this user right. We are also working on better tools to help.
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Thank you. /Johan (WMF)
18:13, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
Notification of discussion at VP and indirect mention
A discussion you may be interested in has been opened regarding whether athletes meeting a sport-specific guideline must demonstrate GNG at AfD. You are also indirectly mentioned in this comment. JoelleJay (talk) 22:22, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the heads up. To be honest I don't think I will be getting involved in that discussion in any way. As an admin who, despite a significantly reduced level of activity, mainly is involved in closing afd, making much in the way of contribution could be seen as trying to shape future outcomes which I then enact, leading to potential conflicts of interest. That and NSPORT is crystal clear that it doesn't supercede gng, so it is editors behaviours not guidelines that need changing. E.g. even though nfooty is only a presumption of gng, if a player passes nfooty but has no third party coverage of significance, he can still be kept if fans weigh in and simply say "passes nfooty". Fenix down (talk) 00:14, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
- Understood, and I certainly didn't expect you to participate given how involved you are as an admin. I just figured if I'm citing some closes of yours as examples I ought to notify you. Regards, JoelleJay (talk) 05:51, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Deletion review for James Cook (footballer, born 1885)
An editor has asked for a deletion review of James Cook (footballer, born 1885). Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Natg 19 (talk) 01:01, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
The Signpost: 30 January 2022
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Orphaned non-free image File:New Radiant SC.png
Thanks for uploading File:New Radiant SC.png. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).
Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 18:48, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
Administrators' newsletter – February 2022
News and updates for administrators from the past month (January 2022).
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Guideline and policy news
- The Universal Code of Conduct enforcement guidelines have been published for consideration. Voting to ratify this guideline is planned to take place 7 March to 21 March. Comments can be made on the talk page.
Technical news
- The user group
oversightwill be renamedsuppressin around 3 weeks. This will not affect the name shown to users and is simply a change in the technical name of the user group. The change is being made for technical reasons. You can comment in Phabricator if you have objections. - The Reply Tool feature, which is a part of Discussion Tools, will be opt-out for everyone logged in or logged out starting 7 February 2022. Editors wishing to comment on this can do so in the relevant Village Pump discussion.
- The user group
Arbitration
- Community input is requested on several motions aimed at addressing discretionary sanctions that are no longer needed or overly broad.
- The Arbitration Committee has published a generalised comment regarding successful appeals of sanctions that it can review (such as checkuser blocks).
- A motion related to the Antisemitism in Poland case was passed following a declined case request.
Miscellaneous
- Voting in the 2022 Steward elections will begin on 07 February 2022, 14:00 (UTC) and end on 26 February 2022, 13:59 (UTC). The confirmation process of current stewards is being held in parallel. You can automatically check your eligibility to vote.
- Voting in the 2022 Community Wishlist Survey is open until 11 February 2022.
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Thanks for uploading File:Logo of Maardu FC Starbunker.png. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).
Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 18:47, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
Question about international caps?
Hey, since you know a lot about the NFOOTY guideline, I had a question about the Rewenig caps. It looks like he only has 4 that were FIFA-official, not 24, which seems like a big difference with regards to how "much" he meets that guideline? If Konter's excluded from the most-capped Luxembourgish players because 48 of his games were against B teams or in amateur tournaments, wouldn't that also exclude most of Rewenig's games? Plus the fact that obviously anyone playing in Luxembourg would have "international" playtime, for want of domestic opponents... Thanks! JoelleJay (talk) 19:03, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
- Hi. My understanding is that a players international caps only count when they are in official FIFA class A matches, Including friendlies, or similar matches arranged at a continental level in instances where the player plays for a FIFA nation but is playing a nation, e.g. Micronesia who are AFC members but not FIFA members. Quantity makes no difference here though, a single cap is sufficient.
- I am kind of following the discussion currently but I have not been involved yet because os simply don't have time to wade through the numerous tangents currently developing. To my mind though there is definitely scope for considerable tightening of NFOOTY with regards to club appearances, but in terms of international appearances, where a player has featured in a top level international match, we should be taking an approach similar to NACADEMIC and say that this individual, having appeared at the highest possible level is inherently notable because of that by definition. Fenix down (talk) 23:56, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
help needed
see my latest edits and try to keeppages trustworthy, sadly registered user goes against facts due own frustration, nothing tried works so far... this shouldnt be alowed here. kind regards! 93.143.105.184 (talk) 10:26, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- FYI see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Cross-wiki harassment from 93.143.73.189. Nehme1499 12:44, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
innocent users reading affected pages didnt deserve your vandalism revert so good luck, make all locked ill be back until alive ale — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.105.184 (talk) 18:01, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure there is anything for me to do here is there? Fenix down (talk) 23:58, 6 February 2022 (UTC)