Freddyfritz

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Ian.thomson (talk) 16:03, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

June 2018

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, your addition of one or more external links to the page Creation–evolution controversy has been reverted.
Your edit here to Creation–evolution controversy was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to remove links which are discouraged per our external links guideline. The external link(s) you added or changed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCDgO_EZ3VY) is/are on my list of links to remove and probably shouldn't be included in Wikipedia. If the external link you inserted or changed was to a media file (e.g. a sound or video file) on an external server, then note that linking to such files may be subject to Wikipedia's copyright policy, as well as other parts of our external links guideline. If the information you linked to is indeed in violation of copyright, then such information should not be linked to. Please consider using our upload facility to upload a suitable media file, or consider linking to the original.
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See also WP:ELNO #11 and WP:NOTSOAPBOX. Wikipedia doesn't tell people what to believe, it just reports what is written about belief. The largest Christian denomination on the planet, the Catholic Church, doesn't "struggle" with evolution and the fall, so a self-published source arguing otherwise really isn't sufficient to present as fact the sweeping claim that Christians who accept Theistic Evolution simple cannot reconcile the fall with their views on science. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:50, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Also, Davids doesn't appear to be a Christian, so (if he was a reliable source) it's rather disingenuous to cite him as the representative for Theistic Evolution. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:55, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

The Catholic position is basically you may believe in evolution as long as you also believe in Adam and Eve and original sin. To say that smooshing these two worldviews together is not a struggle is disingenuous. I’d happily look at a source that you think has effectively done this in an uncontrived way.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Freddyfritz (talk • contribs)

(Cross posted from my page): The BioLogos Foundation has plenty of articles about the Fall and Original Sin. Looking over some of the articles, such as [1] and [2], it becomes pretty apparent that:

• While the idea of Atonement is a foundational belief for Christianity, theories explaining that Atonement post-date and attempt to explain the scriptural idea.
• The idea of original sin was an explanation in response to the idea of Atonement, even if the existence of sin was what necessitated Atonement. This is one of the reasons why original sin doesn't appear in Judaism.
• There were and still are multiple theories of Atonement that have appeared throughout history, and some of them are still taught side-by-side, even from the same pulpit.
• "The" "doctrine" of original sin as is commonly understood is really the Augustine's theory to explain the idea of original sin. It is not explicitly found in Genesis (or else it would also be a Jewish doctrine, which, again, it isn't). It is not spelled out in the writings of Paul, either.
• There is no adequate reason for why Augustine's particular theory should be held equal to scripture instead of equal to the post-scriptural theories of Atonement. This is not even questioning the idea of original sin, just one attempt to explain it, just as someone who teaches Penal substitution is not doubting Atonement for not teaching Satisfaction theory of atonement.
• Theistic evolution has no deadline. It is free to evolve.

Now, "take your time, weigh your options, we don't have to make a decision right now and we don't have to decide on just one thing" really cannot be called a struggle. A struggle implies a victor, but the articles on BioLogos pretty clearly advocate calm resolution. If anything, it suggests that it's those outside of Theistic evolution, especially those incapable of working outside of a single interpretation (like Davids or Ken Ham) are the ones struggling. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:46, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Basically, Davids doesn't struggle and fail to reconcile original sin with evolution, but rather struggles and fails to reconcile Young Earth Creationism with evolution. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:48, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Maybe you just don’t like the word “struggle.” Perhaps you’d admit that merging original sin with evolution is “challenging.” I think most Catholic theologians would readily admit that.

It's more that the material you're trying to add (whether it's "struggle" or "challenge") suggests that adherents of theistic evolution are worried over a problem that demands a singular and immediate answer, when it's not TE making the demand at all. It's like saying that Methodism struggles with reconciling Christian mortalism with the Unconscious mind, or Calvinism is challenged in reconciling Traducianism with Private property. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:38, 6 June 2018 (UTC)