Goamn

Hi,

I reverted your edits on Ahmad al-Hasan al-Yamani because of these reasons:

1. You didn't add his real name to the article
2. He is from Zubayr, near Basra, not Basra itself
3. He was Sunni, not Shia
4. You added an "interview" as a reference, but you can't really know if the person interviewed is really Ahmad al-Hasan
5. Mahdiwatch.org is just a website that criticizes people who claim to be the Mahdi and I don't think that's neutral

Ilikecod (talk) 08:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi ILikeCod, the reasons you have provided are insufficient, and they are based on your bias, I will list out the reasons for reverting back the deleted references and work:

1. The source from New York Times article is entirely concerned with the Battle of Najaf and nothing else.
2. The NY Times source names the figure at four different names, they will be listed in the order shown on the article: 1) Ahmad bin al-Hassan al-Basri, 2) Ahmed Ismail Katte, 3) Diyah Abdul Zahraa Khadom, 4) Ahmed Hassan al-Yamani
3. The NY Times source is labelled "Mystery Arises Over Identity of Militia Chief in Najaf Fight", it is saying "mystery" because there is confusion, and this is present because of different view points in the NY Times article and the presence of 4 different names linked to the same man.
4. The NY Times article does not say what is the "real name" neither has it found a consensus, and as shown previously it lists 4 different names. Furthermore the NY Times articles states Ahmad Al-Hassan twice and so do the other references that were added. Also the name "Ahmed Ismail Katte" was already present in the previous work, perhaps you didn't notice this.
5. Mahdiwatch.org is updated by an academic specialising in Islamic Mahdism.
6. The interview with Ahmad al-Hassan has been published in more than one source and does not contradict. Also the main website of Ahmad al-Hassan has the interview there which is http://www.the-savior.com if you would like to confirm this.
7. The mention to Zubayr is only found in the NY Times article which was labelled, as previously clarified, "Mystery Arises Over Identity of Militia Chief in Najaf Fight". Since the article is not sure itself of the name or the man, then Zubayr should not be used unless present in another source. The sources previously referenced all mention Basra and this is also on the website of Ahmad al-Hassan, thus there is no ambiguity here.
8. Ahmad al-Hassan is known to accept and believe in the 12 Imams, and this is what has been reported also by the references, this information will be detailed and added later on.

Goamn (talk) 08:53, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

1. The NYT article talks about his true identity.
2. Dia Abdul Zahra Kadim is another person. Ahmad bin al-Hassan al Basri and Ahmad Hassan al-Yamani are mistranscribtions of Al-Qati's title.
3. NYT is a reliable source.
4. Gen. Qais Hamza al-Mamouri says Ahmad al-"Hasan" is a Sunni from Zubayr and that his real name is Ahmad Ismail al-Qati'.
5. the-savior.com isn't reliable. I can make a website and say that I interviewed Ahmad al-Qati' and c&p it to Internet forums, but did I really interview him? No, I didn't.

Ilikecod (talk)

Reply to your five numbered points as follows:

1. The NYT article clearly says "Myster about identity" and named 4 names for one person, including Dia Abdul Zahra Kadim, all of these names as the same person Ahmad al-Hassan.
2. As previously stated, Dia Abdul Zahra Kadim is named inside the NYT article as the Chief leader of Soldiers of Heaven, I will quote here for convenience from NYT: “I’m 100 percent sure that the group’s deputy” — Diyah Abdul Zahraa Khadom, also known as Ahmed Hassan al-Yamani — “was a security officer from the old regime,” Jalal Adin al-Sagheer, a Shiite member of Parliament, said Wednesday. “And he was killed in this operation.”
3. NYT is unsure as it has itself presented different possibilities as opposed to one set of facts, and it is conflicting with other reliable sources: Los Angeles Times and The Guardian.
4. That is the statement of General Qais, their are other statements conflicting with him. Also there is a scandal about him being involved with Mahdi Militia: "The summary states that Qais Hamza (Abud) Al-Mamouri, the police general of the Babil Governorate in 2006, was "receiving direct support from Muqtada al-Sadr and the Mahdi militia" in the form of "money and public support." The summary says that Qais was paid at least US$200,000 in February of 2006." Reference: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Former_Iraqi_police_commander_was_working_with_insurgents
5. It is not a matter of making a website, it is a matter of the interview from the-savior.com (the same one) being used in other websites, Dr. Timothy Furnish of mahdiwatch.org, Zeyad Qasim of Healing Iraq News (among other news sites he publishes on) and others not referenced yet like Dr. Reidar Visser of www.historiae.org and gulfanalysis.wordpress.com

If you have any other concerns please feel free to share them here. Thanks.

Goamn (talk) 10:58, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

No, Ahmad al-Qati' is Dia Abdul Zahra Kadim's deputy + blogs aren't reliable sources — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilikecod (talk • contribs) 11:48, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi ILikeCod, the NY Times article and the new reference you added both do not state that "Ahmad is Dia Abdul Zahra Kadim's deputy", please re check the articles. Furthermore I would just like to assure you about the legitimacy and validity of using the mahdiwatch.org blog, by quoting rules from the Wikipedia:Reliable_sources

From the Wikipedia:Reliable_sources, it says under "Wikipedia:Self-published Sources (Online and Paper) ...

"Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications."

Dr. Timothy Furnish has published many articles listed here (mahdiwatch.org Articles and they have been published by sources such as The Washington Times, The_Journal_of_International_Security_Affairs and History News Network (among others). He also has a P.h.D in Islamic eschatology.

Addressing your concern of using an interview for Ahmad al-Hassan, by Ahmad al-Hassan's website, this is allowed as per the wikipedia rules of Reliable Sources, I will quote from this particular section Wikipedia:Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves

"Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:

1. the material is not unduly self-serving;
2. the material does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities);
3. the material does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
4. there is no reasonable doubt as to the authenticity and source of the material;
5. the article is not based primarily on such sources."

On the next edit I will also incorporate your latest reference, thanks.

Goamn (talk) 10:43, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I seem to understand now. But I'm confused as whether or not Ahmad is Sunni or Shi'a because the NY Times source says he's Sunni. Thanks Ilikecod (talk) 14:55, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

It can not be concluded that Ahmad is Sunni, because his stance has always been that he is the envoy/messenger of the 12th Imam (Imam Mahdi). Sunni religious doctrine does not believe in the 12th Imam who is called Imam Mahdi, some believe the earlier Imams like Imam Ja'far (6th Imam), however they mainly portray this Shia ideology as a "fabrication spread by Shia scholars".

Also the Sunni stance is very fixed, the Mahdi will be born at the end of times, and so their doctrine does not allow for Imam Mahdi (12th Imam) to have been born more than 1000 years ago and in occultation, they say this is "not the description of the Mahdi".

Thus it can not be except that Ahmad al-Hassan is not a Sunni, he must be a Shia (because of the doctrine of the 12th Imam, Imam Mahdi), and if not "twelver Shia", then a faith of the Shia belief.

I understand that General Qays has stated he is Sunni, but his statement had many inconsistencies and is not present from other Iraqi figures.

Lastly, it is unthinkable that a Sunni would enrol into the Hawza of Najaf. Hope this was convincing enough.

Goamn (talk) 10:05, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Dear Goamn, I think I was unclear about the addition that I made to the page. Now I have made it clearer. The controversy is not in regards to certain aspects of corruption in the Hawza, as the wiki page suggests, the controversy is in regards to Ahmad al-Hassan's claims in regards to being the heir of Imam Mahdi and how his obedience is directly proportional to God's! In the new edit, I quote his claim from his own book, and then give a couple of examples of well known Shia Muslim scholars who refute that. Hope it is clear now. Regards, Mehdi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mehdi313a (talk • contribs) 10:53, 9 June 2012 (UTC)