Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League

NFL.com

I know we removed the links from the infoboxes recently but people keep changing weight and stuff "per NFL.com". NBA infoboxes take the links from Wikidata. I'm wondering if we should do the same thing here. Just a thought if anyone wants to pursue this. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 01:32, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

To complicate matters, there was discussion before at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League/Archive 21 § Player's position that the team's website was the most accurate, not NFL.com. I'll leave it to regulars to gauge that. —Bagumba (talk) 06:18, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

NFL.com and PFR to a lesser extent have always lagged behind the team's website for updates to jersey numbers, height/weight, and positions. The only reason people argued for NFL.com as the primary database for these things was due to its infobox inclusion. I don't see any reason why we couldn't have replaced it with an autopopulated team profile page link based on the |current_team= parameter. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 14:23, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League/Archive 21 § Player's position discussion, I agree with a lot of what Dissident93 had to say. I know that Hunterb212 (talk) is one user that updates the height and weight in the infoboxes to show what the NFL website says at the time that he is updating them. There have been times when, after not very long, I see that the NFL website ends up changing that info, and I have to update the infoboxes to show the new changes; that's why I like to first have the infoboxes show the height and weight from the pre-draft measurables around the time that this information is first coming out, and then I wait until the regular season is close to starting or has already started before I use the NFL website or the team websites to update the infoboxes, as this information is more likely to change before then. I would say as far as the measurements in the infoboxes go, sometimes, I rely only on the NFL website, only the team pages, or a combination of them, with the pre-draft measurables being factored into the decision making. For example, with Brock Bowers, Georgia had him listed at 6'4 and 240 pounds. At the NFL Combine, he was measured at 6'3 and 243 pounds. The NFL website currently has him listed at the NFL Combine measurables (6'3 and 243 pounds). The Raiders website has him listed at 6'4 and 230 pounds. Since the Raiders website has a different weight listed than what Georgia listed him at or what he was weighed at during the NFL Combine, I would use the team website's weight listing (230 pounds) for his infobox, as it's more current. As for the height, it looks like the Raiders team page is likely relying on what Georgia listed him at, so I would go with the 6'3 listing that the NFL website got from the NFL Combine. Currently, his infobox only relies on the NFL Combine measurables (6'3 and 243 pounds). There are other times when the NFL website and the team websites pull both the height and exact weight from the old college listings, such as for Xavier Legette and Brenden Rice. In this situation, I personally would have the pre-draft height and weight listed in the infobox and would cite PFR if the PFR page still relies on the pre-draft measurables, as those listings should be more accurate and current. However, since the NFL website, the team websites, and practically every other source now show the listings that originally came from their colleges, I expect that eventually, someone will update their infoboxes to show these listings, as they're now considered "official"; this is why a lot of the times, in the "Professional Career" section, I will add the pre-draft measurables, even if I can't retrieve any other info except for the measured height and weight, because I want to show that the official listings aren't as accurate as many people believe them to be. It's also why I add that info to the "Professional Career" section for special teamers as well, even though people have told me that adding this information is irrelevant for kickers, punters, and long snappers. There are also instances, such as in Cooper Beebe's case, when the team website gets the height and weight from what Kansas State listed him at (6'4 and 335 pounds), while the NFL website lists him at 6'3 and 320 pounds. At the NFL Combine, he was measured at 6'3 and 322 pounds. Since the NFL website didn't get the weight from the Combine or an old college listing, and the NFL website got the height from the NFL Combine instead of the college listing, I would cite the NFL website for both the height and weight (6'3 and 320 pounds). Currently, his infobox says 6'3 and 335 pounds.

In situations when the NFL website, the team page, or both show the accurate height from a pre-draft measurement and the weight comes from either a pre-draft measurement or after the players were drafted, while PFR got the height from an old college listing and/or the weight from either a college listing or an outdated, pre-draft measurement, I would encourage anyone to leave feedback on the PFR website to change the info. It usually takes them at least a week before they update their listings based on feedback. They're more receptive to that kind of feedback after training camp and the preseason have concluded.

There were times during this year's draft when the positions of the players were listed differently between the NFL website, the team websites, and the draft profiles. The 2024 NFL draft page on Wikipedia sometimes showed a different position listed for a player than what the same player's Wikipedia page said. I agree with what Dissident93 said in the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League/Archive 21 § Player's position discussion that a more encompassing term, such as offensive lineman, defensive lineman, edge rusher, and defensive back, should be used during times of uncertainty. I would then update the positions once the NFL and team websites update the positions and are in agreement with each other. For example, currently, Darius Robinson is listed as a defensive lineman on the NFL website and the Arizona Cardinals team page. At the time of the draft, if I recall correctly, it was either the NFL website or the Arizona Cardinals website that listed him as a defensive end, while the other source said defensive lineman. Meanwhile, his NFL draft profile listed him as an edge rusher. During that time, I would have listed him as an edge rusher in the infobox, since two of the three sources considered him to be a pass rusher. Then, once the NFL website and the team page both listed him as a defensive lineman, I would have updated the infobox to say defensive lineman. As Sergio Skol (talk) said in the same discussion, the jersey number rules should also be considered a factor when it comes to deciding what position the player gets listed at in the infobox. I would have also left feedback on the PFR website to get the position updated if it needed to be. Currently, Darius Robinson is listed as a defensive end in his infobox and on the 2024 NFL draft page.

In my opinion, the infobox should have links to the NFL website, the team website, and PFR, regardless of how that gets implemented. Then, all three sources can be used interchangeably or in conjunction for the infobox info, depending on how each source decided to list the info. RevMSWIE500 (talk) 22:54, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Move of John Jefferson to John Jefferson (American football player)

Daask recently moved John Jefferson to John Jefferson (American football player). Notwithstanding the fact that "player" should very dropped either way, I'm not sure I support the move. Looking at page views, it appears the football player is pretty clearly the primary topic here. Thoughts? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 05:59, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:RMUM says:

If you disagree with a prior bold move, and the new title has not been in place for a long time, you may revert the move yourself.

—Bagumba (talk) 06:36, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I've undid the move per your WP:RMUM concern, and because WP:POSTMOVE wasn't followed to update all the links to John Jefferson that were pointing to a dab page instead of to the football player. No prejudice if this is formally proposed at WP:RM. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 06:48, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Conversation continued at Talk:John Jefferson § Requested move 20 August 2024. Daask (talk) 12:30, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Roster templates - player positions - depth charts or roster?

Now that the depth charts for some teams have come out, I've been running into an issue with IPs changing player positions and justifying it by pointing to a depth chart (which are often stated as unofficial). I see this as problematic for the following reasons:

• 14 teams explicitly state on the webpage for their depth charts that what's listed is unofficial
• Another depth chart hasn't been updated since July 26, per the info on the page
• Several teams state that their depth charts are compiled by their PR department on the page
• When there's a position listed on a depth chart that is different from that of the team's roster, it has led to edit warring

Proposal:

• A player's position will default to what is listed on the team's roster/website, which will have priority over depth charts
• If this position is ambiguous (such as listing "DL", which at least 14 rosters regularly do), then the depth chart may be used to designate their position
• Consider whether Pro Football Reference should be used as the second option
• Do not use NFL.com for player positions, this is widely recognized as not up to date on this type of information.

Please provide any feedback you may have on how best to handle player positions for the relevant rosters listed in Category:National Football League roster templates. I believe this is important to get ironed out once and I'd appreciate everyone's help in doing so. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:31, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Is this more of a preseason issue, or regular season also? —Bagumba (talk) 12:15, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba: Sorry for the delayed response. It is a larger issues during the preseason, but it does also come up during the regular season sometimes as well, just much less often. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:16, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

The fact that some depth charts explicit say "unofficial"[1] and others might not even provide a date[2] makes me inclined to discount them. Esp. in the preseason, where from a long-term encyclopedic perspecive, it's more important what they actually end up playing, and how reliable sources generally describe the player. —Bagumba (talk) 05:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Bagumba, I agree, and it's been very frustrating to deal with, especially from the IP range of 68.234.69.0/24. Repeatedly making changes based on depth charts and not listening to warnings and ignoring the fact that they explicitly state "unofficial" in a number of cases. It's been rough. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with what's been proposed. One more thing I'd like to see done (for consistency reasons) is specific OL positions, which are almost always noted in depth charts and only change on the field due to injury. We already allow this for the more dynamic DL, LB, and DB positions. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 15:46, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd support that and I think it makes sense, especially for those non-starters. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:46, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Honestly @Dissident93, I think the biggest problem that we struggle with, something that @Rockchalk717, myself, and you often struggle with is that people make guesses at player positions. They routinely make a buttload of unsourced changes based on what they see on a few plays or based on what they're guessing, or based on what one site reports. I wish they were all protected but I'm way too involved to implement something like that. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:49, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

@Hey man im josh: An issue that I see, that is touched on at #NFL.com (above), is that if this project is using the teams' website as the primary resource, it is unclear to a drive-by editor, as it's not linked in the infobox and almost assuredly isnt sourced in the body. The roster templates linking to depth charts also opens it up for unregulated use as a reference for those not aware of these proposed project guidelines. —Bagumba (talk) 16:16, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba: I was thinking the same thing about the depth charts in the templates... It's troublesome and I'm not really sure how to combat it, but it's an issue I've been dealing with since I started here. I hadn't actually considered the positions on the player pages, since I felt those are usually grabbed from PFR or the team site anyways. Whatever the case may be, I'm strongly of the opinion that we shouldn't be using the depth charts for player positions, given that 14 of them explicitly state they're unofficially and a number of them state that they were put together by the media team. This leads me to believe the NFL doesn't actually require that teams put out any type of official depth chart, but does instruct teams to list one on their site (all of the sites are pretty identical in a number of structured components).

Aren't there game books usually created that list positions in some sense? I feel like I saw that at some point and if they exist I think those might actually be the best thing to take as "official". Hey man im josh (talk) 16:28, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

This gamebook shows the starting lineup by position and at the end shows a position for everyone who got in the game. I'm not an active editor for player positions, but it seems unwieldy to verify if someone shoves a one-off position in an infobox. It also might be undue if other sources dont update their position accordingly. —Bagumba (talk) 02:50, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree it would be undue to label a player as a center if they shifted there for a single game as an example. For active players we should only be listing their current position but for retired players we should be listing the position(s) they played for a significant amount of time, not just as one offs. Same reason we wouldn't label Vrabel as a tight end, despite his 10 touchdowns. I'm just not sure what to do about the roster templates at this point given the long term issues. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:17, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Team profile link being dynamically added/removed from the infobox based on |current_team= could mitigate this issue at least. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 00:13, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Jrooster49, who hasn't chimed in but is probably our most active editor when it comes to roster templates. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:18, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Template:Infobox American football game

Can I get some clarity on the intent of {{Infobox American football game}}, specifically the |visitor= and |home= parameters. The template's documentation page says that these parameters should be The club that was designated as the visiting team and The club that was designated as the home team. The expectation, per this documentation and WP:EASTEREGG, is that these fields would contain just the linked name of each team. However, there seems to be this prevailing desire to have a hidden link to the teams' season page. So for example, in Fail Mary the parameters have | visitor = [[2012 Green Bay Packers season|Green Bay Packers]] instead of just | visitor = [[Green Bay Packers]]. Other than the documentation page, I don't see anything else discussing this (i.e. WP:NFL doesn't seem to have a Style Guide on NFL game pages. I personally prefer just the team link, because that's what I expect when clicking in the infobox and otherwise it comes across as an easter egg link, but I truly don't care. I just want to update the documentation page so there are no more content disputes on it. Can we establish consensus one way or the other? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:27, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

If you look at indiv Super Bowl pages (e.g. Super Bowl LVIII), the teams' specific season page is linked. This seems in the spirit of MOS:SPECIFICLINK. EGG seems a bit misplaced, as it's not totally unexpected, so it's more a matter of project principles and style being consistent. The main downside is that some totally unfamiliar with the NFL would find the general team page more useful, but the assumption is that those are a smaller group of readers, and the general links are at the season-specific team page.—Bagumba (talk) 16:16, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Bagumba, ya Super Bowls are covered under {{Infobox American football game}}, so this would cover those games as well. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:14, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Editing war

OK I am not really sure how this works and if I am in the wrong place, however I am wondering about the page Brayden Narveson. I personally do think that my edits are correct, however User:135.131.153.248 and User:2404:4404:442F:2100:11B9:83:1305:D2B3 have reverted my edits such as Narveson losing the kicking job to Nick Folk, his weight being 6 foot instead of 5 foot 11, or Greg Joseph being released hours after signing Narveson (if you check the logs). I did not want to get into an editing war so I wanted to check with you higher-ups. Anyway thanks for dealing with me and please let me know if I am in the wrong place. WhyIsThisSoHard575483838 (talk) 03:57, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

It was a different user who edited your additions. Generally, follow Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. In this case though, since their edit summary "Info Update" didn't seem to match their actual edit to remove content, you might try to reinsert it with an explanation like "unexplained removal of sourced content". Hopefully that resolves it, or they discuss it, but yeah, good to be aware of potential edit wars. Good luck.—Bagumba (talk) 04:15, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ah, looks like you added the other IP while I was editing.—Bagumba (talk) 04:17, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for helping. WhyIsThisSoHard575483838 (talk) 04:22, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I believe IP 135. is going with the team link: https://www.packers.com/team/players-roster/, which many editors do when there's no pfr link. The team has him listed at 6'0" - 215 lbs. The article has pre-draft numbers. I would have went with the team link, I'm going out on a limb, but the Packers might have the final current say in the matter. Bringingthewood (talk) 04:30, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

OK I can put it back at 6 foot. Thanks. WhyIsThisSoHard575483838 (talk) 04:43, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't. Looks like Green Bay rounded it off. Keeping it at 5'11" seems accurate. That might be the way a team site lists players. A stupid 1/8th of an inch could lead to this. It's just tough to point fingers at a team site at times. I just went through this with pfr and teams. Bringingthewood (talk) 04:47, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Ohhhhhhhh, OK so I will revert my revert of my other revert LOL WhyIsThisSoHard575483838 (talk) 04:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Glad you got that, lol. I think you're correct, not sure how to fight one of those team site editors though. :/ Bringingthewood (talk) 04:57, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Just a note: Take T. J. Watt for example. The Steelers team site and pfr are correct. His pre-draft is 6'4 1/2". But they both list him at 6'4".... and 1/2 is more than 1/8. Go figure. Bringingthewood (talk) 05:03, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Alrighty Airtighty thanks. Good night (for me), one last question, do you guys ever sleep? It seems like the majority of people that work on this WikiProject never sleep, I am sure you guys do, but I would like some secret insight from you. WhyIsThisSoHard575483838 (talk) 05:04, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Does Merlot or Cabernet count? Ooops .. I didn't say that. Good night. Bringingthewood (talk) 05:07, 30 August 2024 (UTC)