User talk:Hawstom/Chalkboard

Tom, Great idea. Not too surprisingly, I already like this a whole lot better! That first paragraph is still a problem, as it's basically a revert to what we had a month or so ago.

Obviously the copyright issue needs to be addressed. --DannyMuse 15:34, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This Chalkboard has had a lot of material posted and commented on. How do we proceed from here? Some comments and observations:

First, much of this material is already included on the various pages related to JWs. This brings up a second issue.

As WP is not heirarchically organized, the related articles are not always linked. And they certainly are not organized for content as a result. For example, the pages

are very similar in purpose. They contain some of the same material, but not exactly. Some content is being reduplicated while other is being ignored. Currently, we're addressing questions on content that is already posted!!!

Some article pages have lots of related links, some have few. What I'm getting at is that at this point it seems that there needs to be an overview of WHAT should be included and WHERE it should be. Also, the issue of linking needs to be addressed. Comment are welcome and encouraged! --DannyMuse 03:42, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hey guys, just a heads-up: my schedule is about to get extremely hectic. In addition to working full-time, I'm also a full-time student working on my teaching credential. I'll be checking in from time to time, but I probably won't be participating as much in the editing for the next few weeks. But I've not abandoned the cause! Keep up the good work. Cheers. --DannyMuse 18:08, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, the Chalkboard is a mess. I propose some rules:

Let's please (if you agree) try to keep it presentable as if it were an actual article (perhaps not NPOV yet). Let's keep the discussion here. I am immediately pasting all the discussion below and trimming it from the page.
Let's edit the Chalkboard liberally (it after all has a history we can retrieve from) and not be afraid of a little back and forth.
Since it's my subpage, I'd like to reserve the right to request edits stop if I don't like the way things are going. The Chalkboard isn't going anywhere unless/until it is NPOV and a recognizable improvement over the real article, so there is no danger or urgency if it looks temporarily like a POV advocacy page. Only consensus will bring it out.
It is very, very, very important that this project be done totally free of adversarial tone. I am not interested in participating nor in sponsoring under my user page any effort that is a mere extension of the bickering behind the real article. My goal is to get Content and to make it NPOV policy compliant.

Is that OK :-D ? Tom - Talk 21:54, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

That's fine with me! We're you going to comment on any of my suggestions regarding organization and content? --DannyMuse 21:11, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes. Please forgive my lack of drive on this. I will be to it. And thanks for all you're doing. Tom - Talk 07:36, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

I have put together a PROPOSED DRAFT INTRO. I believe it incorporates all the points under discussion in a way that (hopefully) will present the facts in a NPOV way. FYI: The points about the Great Apostasy and "mutual non-acceptance" have recently been moved from the intro to the "Origins" section and the "Opposition ..." section by myself and other editors. The only other point in the current intro that needs addressing is that about Abel, etc. We addressed that before and I believe it should be moved to the "Origins" section. Comments? --DannyMuse 03:48, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I am sorry to be dwelling on this issue, but I really think it will help things move along if we try to keep (for the moment) a single version of the article on the chalk board. So if you want to edit or replace a section, I think it is best to simply re-write it instead of having both versions there. Do you see what I am saying? Do you agree? If we want to retrieve an old version that somebody else erased, we can always go back into history. I think it will help that way to have a uni-directional focus. Tom - Talk 14:46, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

That's fine, I just thought it might be easier to have what WAS there to compare. But it really doesn't matter that much anyway as it's always changing on the real page anyway! --DannyMuse 16:13, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Exactly. :-P Let's just clear our heads and start working towards the best article possible without all the peripheral flame breakouts. See my questions at the bottom. Tom - Talk 19:40, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

General Discussion

As this is just a Chalkboard, I will just add some comments. I will do that in brackets, so that the Copyrighted text from the JW website and my remarks will be kept separate. Perhaps you can then understand why I think that these quotations of JWs are heavily biased. I have contrasted them with my POV, which (I have to admit) certainly is not NPOV. But this shows that a NPOV must still be worked out. I think that the current article is already quite neutral and informative. And I also think that the material below does not help very much. It might however point us to some topics that have not yet been discussed in the article. Kind regards, Heiko Evermann 19:47, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've added responses to some of Heiko's commentary. For the sake of visual clarity I've bulleted his comments and my response which immediately follow. --DannyMuse 17:01, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have added some answers for Danny. Heiko Evermann 20:12, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

My intent for this Chalkboard is that it resemble an article, not a talk page. Could you move the discussion to the Chalkboard's discussion page so we can make this look like an article? Unless, that is, you disagree with my intent. :-) Tom - Talk 04:10, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

Please see my comments on the Talk page for overall organization and the ToDo list I've added. Regarding this page, I suggest that before we add more content we take what we have currently and edit it as per the comments. Then when we've got agreeable content we can then paste it into the the appropriate articles. In the meantime the present commentary can be an aid to editing and fine-tuning. Comments, suggestions? --DannyMuse 05:54, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Jehovah's Witnesses

Draft Introduction to Main Article

Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) are members of a nontrinitarian Christian group. They believe that some time after the death of the last apostle the Church departed from the original faith in major points (Great Apostasy). This non-acceptance is mutual; quite a number of non-Jehovah's Witness Christians believe that it is the Jehovah's Witnesses who have departed from the original faith.

Copyrighted material pasted below

Who Are Jehovah's Witnesses?

From http://www.jw-media.org/people/who.htm

Jehovah's Witnesses are members of a worldwide Christian religion who actively share with others information about God, whose name is Jehovah, and about his Son, Jesus Christ. (Heiko: OK)

They base their beliefs solely on the principles found in the Holy Bible and view first-century Christianity as their model.

Heiko: I disagree
DannyMuse: You may disagree, but that doesn't make it untrue. We have to remember that WP articles MUST BE NPOV. That fact is that all JW beliefs are Bible based. You might disagree with their understanding, or interpretation, of what the scriptures mean. But it is still a true statement that JW's "base their beliefs solely on the ... Holy Bible". If you examine any of the Bible study publications JW's use you will find that ALL teachings are supported by scriptural citations and references. Also, there are extensive articles on first-century Christianity as the model for JW beliefs. To verify, since you apparently have access to a WT CD-ROM, I suggest you try a search in the Index with the Keyword phrase "Christians (Early)." That should prove the point. Again, you may have a different POV, but that is just that, your POV.

Heiko: Danny, as far as NPOV is concerned, one can say "JWs think/state/believe that their belief is solely based on the Bible." One cannot say "It is solely based on the Bible." When I read their literature, I do notice that they cite scripture as reference, but in a lot of cases I read something else in the Bible - sometimes in the passage they cite, sometimes elsewhere. So their belief is based on the Bible plus their interpretation. That can even be proved from their literature, as they have stated several times that one needs the guidance of the faithful and discrete slave to understand scripture in the right way. I do have access to the CD-ROM, which is surprisingly difficult for a non-JW to get. At least here in Germany, it is not possible for a non-JW to just order it from the Internet or to ask a JW to get one for you. I got the English 1999 edition from a JW who is on the way of leaving JWs, and he did not care for that restriction. And I got the German 1999 via ebay. (I think a non-JW sold lots of books he had inherited from a JW relative who had died.) Why is the CD such a secret? This is highly unusual in comparison to other churches. We Adventists have nothing to hide. Why do you? If you want to go into some of the doctrinal details, maybe this chalkboard is not the right place. If you like to, we could better do that by email.

DannyMuse: Interpretation is the very point of the argument, is it not? Many, if not most, churches claim to "base their beliefs on the Bible." Yet they disagree on myriad teachings. Do you find that controversial in those cases too? Or do you feel that JW's are a special case? If so, why?

Regarding the CD, there's nothing secret about the it. I can't imagine where you got that idea. Obviously you know about it and others have referenced here on WP so the "secret" (that never was) is out! But, like certain of our publications, the CD is produced primarily FOR us as a research tool, whereas many of our other publications, books and magazines are produced for public distribution. All you have to do is go to a Kingdom Hall and check it out for yourself! :) BTW, we don't sell our literature. It is offered free of charge to any who are sincerely interested. (We do accept voluntary contributions to cover the cost.) By now I would have expected you would know that a lot of our practices are different than other churches.

They believe that in addition to drawing one closer to God, living by Bible principles gives purpose to life, promotes strong family ties, and develops productive and honest citizens. International brotherhood (Heiko: OK)

This international brotherhood of people of all races is made up of about 6.4 million practicing members organized into more than 95,000 congregations in some 230 lands. (Heiko: OK)

They remain neutral in all political conflicts and believe that God will intervene in man's affairs to bring about a peaceful human society earth wide.

Heiko: this is misleading. They believe that God will destroy all current kingdoms to set up his reign, and he will destroy all the wicked. I share much of this belief, but talking about peace and harmony is not the right wording for this.

DannyMuse: How is this misleading? The statement says "They [JW's} remain neutral in all political conflicts ..." This is a well documented historical fact. What makes you believe otherwise? If you feel that the section needs to be expanded to explain exactly HOW it is that JW's believe "God will intervene in man's affairs to bring about a peaceful human society earth wide" then I can understand. What's stated here is what JW's believe will be the result following the battle of Armageddon. This is clearly explained in many of our publications. Remember you can't say everything at once. Also, we try to focus on what Jesus described as the "good news of the kingdom." - Matthew 24:14. Perhaps a section could follow describing JW beliefs on Armageddon.

Heiko: you misunderstood me. I disagreed with the phrase "that God will intervene..". Here it is ommitted that God will do this by destroying the majority of mankind. I do share that belief. After all your church (JW) and my church (SDA) share some of the same Millerite heritage, don't we? My point is that the phrase is using so positive words, while God's judgement will be very uncomfortable for quite a lot of people. And I do label that as misleading. I do not put into doubt that JWs abstain from politics. But again, that is something other Christians do think differently about.

DannyMuse: Actually I did not misunderstand you. That is why I stated, "Remember you can't say everything at once. Also, we try to focus on what Jesus described as the "good news of the kingdom." - Matthew 24:14." After reading your last response, I think that "misleading" is not the correct word, perhaps "incomplete" would be better. This is why I added, "Perhaps a section could follow describing JW beliefs on Armageddon."

The worldwide organization is directed by an unpaid, ecclesiastical governing body serving at the international offices in Brooklyn, New York. (Heiko: OK)

Promoting Bible education

Jehovah's Witnesses promote Bible education by publishing and distributing Bibles and Bible study aids, making personal visits to neighbors, and conducting free home Bible study courses.

Heiko: My view is that they spend much more time on their literature than on the Bible. They also explicitly state that reading the Bible is not sufficient to understand God's plans and that you need their literature and guiding to gain a proper understanding of God's word.

DannyMuse: Heiko, you need to attend a meeting of JW's for yourself and see that your statement that "they spend much more time on their literature than on the Bible" is just wrong. The whole purpose of all our literature is to study the Bible. Regarding your other statements, I would like to see a citation to back that up. It's not helpful to make dogmatic statements like that without supporting documentation.

Heiko: I have been 3 times to a Watchtower study session. The Watchtower was read. The study questions were asked and they were answered. But they were not answered with someones own words, but with quotations from the watchtower. To me that was a watchtower study, not a Bible study. I then mentioned that own interpretations from the Bible that differ from the watchtower interpretation are explicitly not welcome among JWs. Do you want me to back that up? Do you disagree with that statement? How about this proposal: I will look that up, citing 1) Russel and 2) a quotation from between 1980 and 2000. If I find that, I have your permission to add this information to the WP article about JW doctrine (and you will not delete it), if not, I will publicly excuse here. Just tell me, whether you really want me to do that.

DannyMuse: Well, Heiko, what can I say. That's not how we do things in my congregation nor in any of the ones I've attended. Here we are encouraged to express ourselves in our own words. If you're ever in Moorpark, California, USA, I'd be happy to have you join us!!! Regarding the quotation, you don't need my permission for anything. I would certainly like to see assertions such as the one you made documented. Whether or not is should be posted here is another question. Is it relevant? Helpful? Why do you want to post such things?

Local congregations meet at places of worship called Kingdom Halls. The public is invited to their meetings, and no collections are taken.

Heiko: OK. But they do emphasize in their literature that donations are welcome and that Jehovah really, really likes that. To me that is so close to taking collections that I do not see much difference. Hence I consider this sentence to be misleading.

DannyMuse: No plates are passed. There are contribution boxes in discreet locations for those that wish to VOLUNTARILY contribute. Have you ever actually been to a Kingdom Hall? It would be a good research activity.

Heiko: What is the difference between plates and contribution boxes? We do pass plates among the SDA, but still nobody forces me to put anything in them.

DannyMuse: It's not a collection if you're not asked. That's the meaning of the word in English. I don't intend any disrespect, but I know that English is not your first language. It should be obvious that things cost money: rental of meeting places, utilities, printing, etc. Congregation members generally want to contribute voluntarily. If they want then they can do so discreetly by placing their contribution in a box for that. They are usually placed in convenient, but not prominent locations in Kingdom Halls. However, no plates are passed because WE feel that puts people on the spot and might make someone feel obligated or embarrassed if they cannot. A plate being passed it put in your face; a contribution box is something an individual has to seek out.

Members come from all social, economic, racial, and religious backgrounds. Last year, they devoted more than one billion volunteer hours to Bible education worldwide.

Heiko: OK. But one could also mention that they gained 250.000 baptisms through that. So they spent 4000 hours of preaching on one baptism. My own church (SDA) gains 1.000.000 baptisms per year, and we preach a lot less. So the question is: why are JWs so proud of the huge number of hours spent preaching? The first sermon recorded in the book of Acts led 2000 people to baptism. So where is God's Spirit moving?

DannyMuse: I didn't realize it was a competition. Irregardless, there is nothing in your comment that challenges the veracity of the qouted statement. I suggest that your commentary would fit nicely in the SDA article. BTW, to answer your question, the reason that we are "so proud of the huge number of hours spent preaching" is because we believe that this is evidence of:

1. The fulfillment of Bible prophecy. - Mt 24:14;

2. It shows our obedience to Jesus' command to preach. - Mt 28:19, 20.

--DannyMuse 16:59, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

History

The modern-day organization of Jehovah's Witnesses began toward the end of the 19th century with a small group of Bible students near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Heiko: this implies that the early Christians were JWs. That statement is heavily biased.

Dannymuse: How does this statement imply that early Christians were JWs? There is no reference to any other religious group at all in this blurb. The fact is that we do believe that there have been servants/worshippers of Jehovah throughout all history. This includes the first century Christians. But as the very next statement says (and as I think you already knew) the name "Jehovah's Witnesses" was adopted by us in 1931. Perhaps you're thinking of the previous references made in the JW main article to Abel as the "first witness."

In 1879 they began publishing the Bible journal now called The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom. It is published in more than 140 languages and is the world's most widely circulated religious magazine. The name Jehovah's Witnesses was adopted in 1931. Previously, they were known as International Bible Students. (Heiko: OK)

Beliefs—Membership and Organization

From http://www.jw-media.org/beliefs/membership.htm

Baptism - This act symbolizes one's dedication to God and is taken by those of responsible age who have made an informed decision. Baptism is by complete water immersion.

Heiko: please explain the non-recognition of infant baptisms and of believers' baptisms from all other churches.

DannyMuse: I thought we already solved this issue in the Doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses article!

Organization - Following the model of first-century Christianity, Jehovah's Witnesses have no clergy-laity division. All baptized members are ordained ministers and share in the preaching and teaching work. Witnesses are organized into congregations of up to 200 members. Spiritually mature men in each congregation serve as elders. A body of elders supervises each congregation. About 20 congregations form a circuit, and about 10 circuits are grouped into a district. Congregations receive periodic visits from traveling elders. Guidance and instructions are provided by a multinational governing body made up of longtime Witnesses who currently serve at the international offices of Jehovah's Witnesses in Brooklyn, New York.—Acts 15:23-29; 1 Timothy 3:1-7.

Heiko: they do have a clergy-laity division: it is the difference between the 144.000 and the "other sheep". The "other sheep" need to be part of the organisation to enjoy God's blessing. To me this is so close to having priests, just with another name, that I do have to disagree.

DannyMuse: There are a few problems I have with your response. First, it must be admitted that not all churches have the exact same definitions of “clergy” and “laity.” However, I do believe that they are similar enough for the point here. Still, for the sake of clarity, I’ll reference Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:

CLERGY

1 : a group ordained to perform pastoral or sacerdotal functions in a Christian church

2 : the official or sacerdotal class of a non-Christian religion

LAITY

1 : the people of a religious faith as distinguished from its clergy

According to these definitions, it is absolutely true that there is no “clergy-laity” distinction among JW’s . As we view it, we are imitating the apostolic example, and ALL who qualify as ministers can teach "publicly and from house to house." (Matthew 28:19, 20; Acts 20:20) This includes men and women, young and old. The key here is to who does or does not have a responsibility to minister.

Note these two secular references on this point regarding JW’s:

Some churches have the traditional clergy-laity division, but "there is not the slightest justification . . . for that 'split-level' distinction," says Theology Today. Similarly, as the Encyclopedia Canadiana observes: "The work of Jehovah's Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practised by Jesus and his disciples during the first and second centuries. . . . All are brothers."

Finally, the way JW's understand the difference between the "anointed" (144,000) and the "other sheep" is also not analogous to the concept of the "clergy-laity” division. The "anointed," according to our understanding, do not rule as priests and kings until after their death and ascension to heaven. (Rev. 5:9, 10). That is clearly different from other church's definitions of "clergy." Also, from a purely practical view, none in JW congregations wear any special distinguishing garb or clothing. This is yet another distinction from the clergy of other religions, particulary of Christian denominations. I'm sure you've observed this at the meetings of ours which you have attended.

Regarding the role of Elders and Ministerial Servants in congregations of JW's, please see the Organizational structure of Jehovah's Witnesses article. --DannyMuse 03:32, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Conscience - Jehovah's Witnesses avoid making rules and regulations beyond those provided in the Scriptures, and they do not follow traditions that contradict Bible teachings. Emphasis is placed on personal application of Bible principles and the value of a sound, Bible-based conscience.—Matthew 15:9; 2 Corinthians 1:24.

Heiko: there is no other Christian church that has so detailed rules about what is right and wrong and who strictly enforce this. Please mention shunning of e.g. smokers and those who decide they want to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ.

DannyMuse: That's an interesting comment that "no other Christian church ... has so detailed rules about what is right and wrong and who strictly enforce [it]." I'd be interested in knowing how you came to this conclusion. Did someone do a study? At any rate, I'll take it as a compliment. Nevertheless, THIS statement is about "Conscience" and how JW's believe the scriptures should help an individual develop their own conscience. The subject of "Shunning" is in fact already addressed in the Practices of Jehovah's Witnesses article under the Heading "Disfellowshipping."

Beliefs—God, Man, and the Future

From http://www.jw-media.org/beliefs/trueworship.htm

The Bible - It is God's infallible, inspired Word, upon which Jehovah's Witnesses base all their beliefs. Some portions of the Bible are to be understood figuratively, or symbolically.—2 Timothy 3:16, 17; Revelation 1:1. (Heiko: ok)

God - Jehovah is the name of the only true God, the Creator of all things. As such, he is worthy of our worship and devotion. His outstanding qualities are love, justice, wisdom, and power.—Psalm 83:18; 1 John 4:8; Revelation 4:11.

Jesus - He is the Son of God. He came to earth from heaven and gave his perfect human life as a ransom sacrifice. His death and resurrection made salvation to eternal life possible for those exercising faith in him. He is now ruling as King of God's heavenly Kingdom, which will soon bring peace to the entire earth. Jesus never claimed equality with God and thus is not part of a Trinity.—John 3:16; 14:28; Revelation 11:15.

Heiko: the interesting point is "made possible". As a JW you just don't know whether you will really make it. And they explicitly stated that Jesus has not yet applied his blood for the sake of the other sheep.

DannyMuse: Heiko, that's not what the expression "made ... possible" means. Please reread the paragraph above and I think you will see that it is explaining that salvation is not possible apart from Jesus' ransom sacrifice. This is why John 3:16 is referenced.

Sin and Death - Death is a result of sin inherited from the first man, Adam, who chose to disobey God. The original sin was not sex relations but was the deliberate disobedient act of eating of "the tree of the knowledge of good and bad." The dead are conscious of nothing. In the future, God through Jesus will resurrect the dead.—Genesis 2:17; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; John 11:25; Romans 5:12.

Heiko: OK. I as an Adventist share their belief in soul sleep. But as the majority of Christians today does not, that needs to be explained.

DannyMuse: OK, how 'bout adding a phrase to the affect, "this is obviously different from (conflicts with, ...) the doctrine of the immortality of the soul as taught by many [other] religions."

Worship - True worship emphasizes, not ritual and outward show, but spirit and truth. It is characterized by genuine love for God, obedience to his commandments, and love for one's fellowman. Jehovah's Witnesses do not use religious symbols, such as the cross, in their worship.—Matthew 22:37-39; John 4:24; 1 Corinthians 10:14.

God's Kingdom - It is the heavenly Kingdom for which Jesus taught all his followers to pray. Soon it will become the one government over all the earth and will solve mankind's pressing problems. The Bible does not give a date for these events, but it provides evidence to show that we are living in "the last days" of this troubled world.—2 Timothy 3:1-5; Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10; 24:3-8, 36.

Judgment - Jesus is God's appointed Judge who determines what each one's future will be. Those judged righteous will be given everlasting life on a paradise earth. Those judged unrighteous will not be tormented but will die and cease to exist. Humans are not responsible for this judgment, nor will they be involved when God takes action to remove all wickedness from the earth.—Proverbs 2:21, 22; John 5:22; Acts 17:30, 31; Revelation 21:3, 4.

Earth - The earth will never be destroyed or depopulated but will become a peaceful paradise.—Psalm 37:29; Isaiah 45:18; Luke 23:43.

Membership

I have a question about membership. Suppose I want to become one of Jehovah's witnesses, or as I might say, a Jehovah's Witness. How do I become a member and what am I joining? Tom - Talk

Tom, you can't just "join" Jehovah's Witnesses. A person must qualify to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses. To do that requires certain steps. The changes a person would have to make would depend to a large extent on their former course of conduct. Simply put, an individual must begin by taking accurate knowledge of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ into their heart. Doing this causes us to exercise faith and to have profound love for God. (Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 10:17; Hebrews 11:6) Compliance with God's laws, principles, and standards should move us to repent, expressing godly sorrow over our past sins. This leads to conversion, that is, to a turning around and abandoning any wrong course we followed when we did not have the knowledge of God.

Conversion must take place prior to our baptism as Witnesses of Jehovah. Conversion is a voluntary act performed freely by one who has made a wholehearted decision to follow Christ Jesus. Such individuals reject their former wrong course and determine to do what is right in God's sight. In the Scriptures, Hebrew and Greek verbs pertaining to conversion have the sense of turning back, turning around. This action denotes a turning to God from a wrong way. (1 Kings 8:33, 34) Conversion calls for "works that befit repentance." (Acts 26:20) It requires that we abandon false worship, act in harmony with God's commandments, and render exclusive devotion to Jehovah. (Deuteronomy 30:2, 8-10; 1 Samuel 7:3) Conversion results in changes in our thinking, objectives, and disposition. (Ezekiel 18:31) We "turn around" as ungodly traits are replaced by the new personality.-Acts 3:19; Ephesians 4:20-24; Colossians 3:5-14.

Next an individual would make a personal dedication to Jehovah to serve him as a disciple of his Son. This would then be symbolized by water baptism. To become one of Jehovah's Witnesses a person must be one who exercises faith and gets baptized. Even before baptism, such faith manifests itself in godly conduct, trust in Jehovah, participation in the Kingdom-preaching work, and acceptance of Jesus' ransom sacrifice. Faith in the ransom is essential for baptismal candidates. Prior to their baptism they are asked: "On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?" Only if the individual answers in the affirmative and also understands that his dedication and baptism identify him as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization can he acceptably undergo water immersion. (Reference w89 1/15 13) --DannyMuse 05:05, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Related to that, who owns the Kingdom Hall and who owns the bank account where the contributions are deposited after meetings on Sunday? Tom - Talk

Are the elders and traveling elders members of or officers in an organization? Are there any other leadership positions besides those? Tom - Talk

Some of this is already address in the Organizational structure of Jehovah's Witnesses article. Additionally, some of the questions you proposed in the above two points are worded kind of oddly. I suppose that might be because you don't know the details of JWs and so aren't even sure how to formulate the question. Here is some info from the Require brochure, Lesson 14, "How Jehovah's Witnesses Are Organized" that might answer some of your questions. (Note, these excerpts are numbered as in the brochure. Also, I've highlighted some of the relevant points.)

2. Most congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses have meetings three times each week. You are invited to attend any of these. (Hebrews 10:24, 25) The Bible is the basis for what is taught. Meetings are opened and closed with prayer. Heartfelt "spiritual songs" are also sung at most meetings. (Ephesians 5:18, 19) Admission is free, and no collections are taken.-Matthew 10:8.

3. Most congregations hold meetings in a Kingdom Hall. These are usually simple structures built by Witness volunteers. You will not see any images, crucifixes, or things like these at the Kingdom Hall. Expenses are paid for by voluntary donations. For those who wish to make a donation, there is a contribution box.-2 Corinthians 9:7.

Note: Ownership of the funds donated would depend on the purpose for which they were donated. For example, funds donated for upkeep of the local Kingdom Hall would belong to the congregation.

4. In each congregation, there are elders, or overseers. They take the lead in teaching in the congregation. (1 Timothy 3:1-7; 5:17) They are assisted by ministerial servants. (1 Timothy 3:8-10, 12, 13) These men are not elevated above the rest of the congregation. (2 Corinthians 1:24) They are not given special titles. (Matthew 23:8-10) They do not dress differently from others. Neither are they paid for their work. The elders willingly look after the spiritual needs of the congregation. They can provide comfort and guidance in times of trouble.-James 5:14-16; 1 Peter 5:2, 3.

Where did the name "Kingdom Hall" come from? Tom - Talk 20:11, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

KINGDOM HALL: The name Kingdom Hall was suggested in 1935 by J. F. Rutherford, who was then president of the Watch Tower Society. In connection with the Society's branch facilities in Honolulu, Hawaii, he arranged for the brothers to construct a hall where meetings could be held. When James Harrub asked what Brother Rutherford was going to call the building, he replied: "Don't you think we should call it 'Kingdom Hall,' since that is what we are doing, preaching the good news of the Kingdom?" Thereafter, where possible, halls regularly being used by the Witnesses gradually began to be identified by signs that said "Kingdom Hall." - from the Proclaimers book, pages 318-19

Thank you for these wonderful answers. Don't hesitate simply to direct me to any information that is already on Wikipedia as I ask more questions. I simply want to be sure we get the basics here to put into articles.

What kind of organization is formed to legally own each Kingdom Hall? I see that in Maricopa County something is owned (or was owned) by a "Jehovah's Witnesses East Unit Papago Park Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses...." Is each congregation legally separate from any central organization, and no legal organization actually functions worldwide? If there is a legal organization that functions worldwide (or multiple), what is it, or what are they? Tom - Talk 12:16, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

Tom, It's not possible to give a single answer for this. JWs follow whatever legal requirements are in place in their particular locale. This is obviously going to be very different in the various countries, states and local jurisdictions around the world. Also, the legal requirements relevant to a local congregation would be different than those that would a apply to say a Branch Office. As I mentioned before, some of this is already address in the Organizational structure of Jehovah's Witnesses article. You should also reference the Legal Instruments of Jehovah's Witnesses article. As it states,

"There are a number of corporations in use by Jehovah's Witnesses. They deal with legal issues and represent the interests of the religious organization."

I know that some congregations own the facilities they use while others rent. This is also true of Circuits, etc. All corporations operated by Jehovah's Witnesses are non-profit and are for the benefit of the organization's members and their associates. Why don't you go visit the East Unit Papago Park Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses and ask them some of these questions? I'm sure they'd be happy to answer your questions.

A caveat though. I'm sure it's unintentional, but some of your questions regarding the legal and financial details of JW activities (both of local congregations and worldwide) are private matters. Some might wonder why you want to know these things. Most of the activities of JWs are highly visible and very public. But just as I would not expect you to divulge to me the private details of your personal financial status (ie. your Net Worth, assets and liabilities, credit rating, etc.), it is not appropriate for you or anyone else not involved to inquire into things that do not concern you. However, be assured that these things are not secret among congregation members. In every congregation of JWs around the world there is a monthly review of the congregation accounts. This review is discussed at the Congregation Service meeting before the entire congregation. (You may find it noteworthy that this meeting is not closed to the public.) Similar discussions take place at our Circuit and District assemblies.

Simply put, private matters are private, public are public. FYI, in the state of California, all officers of any corporation are a matter of public record. I don't know how it works elsewhere. I hope this helps answer some of the things you feel you (and WP readers) need to know. --DannyMuse 18:00, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I want to clarify as I asked hypothetically above what I am joining. Is it a church? What do I become a member of? Tom - Talk 12:16, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

Tom, as the opening paragraph of our draft article says, "Jehovah's Witnesses are members of a worldwide religion ..." Anyone that becomes one of Jehovah's Witnesses belongs to that! Obviously, JW's associate with a particular congregation. It is generally the one closest to where they live. When individuals move they then attend the congregation in their new locale. Whenever we, my family and I, travel we always visit the local congregations if we can. We've attended meetings in many places in the US, as well as Canada, England and Ireland. Interestingly, in all English speaking countries (as well as most of the world) all congregations follow the same program of Bible study. In other words, when we visit another congregation we know what material will be considered as it is the same as what we would be covering in our home congregation. (The Public Talk is an exception in the regard that the particular subject is scheduled locally, however the material is selected from over a hundred outlines provided by the local Branch Office.)

The words "church" is interesting because in common usage in English people mean different things by it. Many mean the building where they attend religious services, others mean the organization or institution embodying a particular religion, (ie, the Catholic Church). The words "church" and "churches" occur over 110 times in the King James Version. Other translations also use these terms. The Greek word translated "church" literally means "a calling forth," or, in other words, a gathering of people. Therefore JW's believe that, the term "church" as used in the Bible designates, not a place of worship, but rather a group of worshipers. Acknowledging this, Clement of Alexandria, the second-century religious teacher, wrote: "Not the place, but the congregation of the elect, I call the Church." So in this sense, you could say that someone becoming one of JWs joins a church. But Witnesses would not use this expression. I hope that helps answer your question. If not please try to be more specific concerning what it is that you wish to know. --DannyMuse 17:27, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Intro to Main Article

Tom: I've tried putting our draft intro in to the main article. I believe we've addressed everything that was there, but in a much more effective way. Also, much of what was there is repeated below throughout the various subsections. The one exception is that we didn't address the subject of JW's view of Abel re their history:

"Jehovah's Witnesses believe that their .... the original faith in Jehovah God, which started with Abel, the first faithful witness of Jehovah, (Hebrews 11:4; 12:1). "

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