Jamesroseman
List of pirates
editI know that you are passionate about stripping Grace O'Malley of her name but we follow the sources, not your POV. Both given sources name her as Grace O'Malley, so we use Grace O'Malley. The Banner talk 14:07, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
Sorry for undoing your edits, I didn't realize there was a User Talk page. Specific to the "List of Pirates" article, the other pirates are referred to by birth name. Her name *isn't* Grace, it's Gráinne. It's not even a translation of the name. I understand the English have used and popularized an Anglicized name, but that's not proper justification in this context. A separate argument is around the title of her dedicated page, and that conversation is being carried out appropriately. Can you explain to me why on this page you're advocating breaking convention? Also, "stripping Grace O'Malley of her name" is a hilarious phrase -- you know that's not her name, right? Not even a Padraig Pearse situation, where he referred to himself as Patrick, she spent her life fighting the English and they popularized their version of her name. Jamesroseman (talk) 14:57, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
"We follow the sources, not your POV". Have a look at this Google Trends search. It's actually more justifiable to be calling her "Gráinne Mhaol". It's amazing when you look at the NGrams search as well if you haven't, they're are ridiculously low. Grace O'Malley is predictably more visible through literature due to historical bias. Jamesroseman (talk) 15:04, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thank for confirming your POV. The Banner talk 15:06, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- You're not giving any reasoning to your position, you're just ignoring the data I'm providing. After looking at your page, I can see now a history of belligerence and baseless contrarianism. Jamesroseman (talk) 15:08, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, I did explain why. And I still think that we should follow the sources. And in fact, your Google trends is supporting the use of Grace O'Malley. The Banner talk 15:20, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- It's important to use neutral language, because it's hard to read your comments in any other way than antagonistic. Is your point that the 2 works referenced in the "List of Pirates" article both have "Grace O'Malley" in their titles? Have you read the books? The content of both of those books make it quite clear that her name was Gráinne Mhaol. Jamesroseman (talk) 17:13, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, I did explain why. And I still think that we should follow the sources. And in fact, your Google trends is supporting the use of Grace O'Malley. The Banner talk 15:20, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- You're not giving any reasoning to your position, you're just ignoring the data I'm providing. After looking at your page, I can see now a history of belligerence and baseless contrarianism. Jamesroseman (talk) 15:08, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- "stripping Grace O'Malley of her name" - a tad pointy, The Banner, perhaps? We all know - regardless of current use - her name was never Grace O'Malley. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:16, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, I have seen that you objected against the prior move and now try it again. The Banner talk 17:31, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Why are you so antagonistic?Jamesroseman (talk) 18:44, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Because I copied your style.
The Banner talk 21:33, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Because I copied your style.
- Why are you so antagonistic?Jamesroseman (talk) 18:44, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, I have seen that you objected against the prior move and now try it again. The Banner talk 17:31, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps this is an issue of English-language fluency? Jamesroseman (talk) 08:01, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- "Historical bias" is not an argument that can be used to repudiate the common name used for this figure in English sources, which is Grace O'Malley. The article details straight after what her Irish name was as well as her Irish nickname. All three names are accomodated for, nothing is being air-brished out of history or denied. For now according to the sheer weight of usage, Grace O'Malley is the name used most frequently in English language sources for her. Maybe at some point in future literary and academic works use her Irish name far more often than the English one in which case there will be better grounds for changing the article name. If such a time occurs I will back a name change on the grounds of WP:WEIGHT and WP:COMMONNAME, however until then I oppose it as those that are arguing for it tend to simply be Irish Gaelic cultural-nationalists who are offended by it and/or decide to feel offended for the figure involved, which is just silly as no-one truly knows what they would have thought of it unless they explicitly stated so.
- The argument that her name was never Grace O'Malley is also a dud for the sheer weight of literary evidence gives it as the English form for her name whether she or contemporary sources used it or not. St. Malachy did not call himself Malachy. That is the English form of his Latin name Malachus, which itself was not the proper translation or transliteration or whatever it is of his actual Irish name which was Máel Máedóc Ua Morgair. Malachus is the Latin for Máelechlainn. Did he ever use the English form? Most likely not. Is his name even found as Malachy in contemporary English sources? I don't know, though English church documents would have been written in Latin anyways I believe. Though sheer weight of evidence since those times gives Malachy as the most common English form but no-one seems to care enough to argue about it, so what makes Grace O'Malley so special? Mabuska (talk) 13:21, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
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