User talk:Jasynnash2/Archive7 - September 2008

Larry Kroon

You did notice that this man is Sarah Palin's pastor. She is the GOP nominee for Vice President because of her faith and the appeal it has for believing Christians. He is therefore the subject of legitimate national attention. I had not previously included the previous time he was interviewed by a number of newspapers, when his daughter needed a liver transplant. I thougth they might prefer privacy. However, since he was willing to discuss his faith with a number of reporters, it seemed reasonable to include it. You do realize that there is a long tradition of intense scrutiny of the pastors of Ameircan Presidential candidates.Elan26 (talk) 16:16, 3 September 2008 (UTC)Elan26

• I noticed. Unfortunately, being her pastor doesn't make him notable and that was what was in the article. Even the interviews you speak of may not be enough to verify his notability in accordance with the policies and guidelines of wikipedia. Jasynnash2 (talk) 16:18, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
• I think you should go back and look at the sourcing on both articles. The Wasilla Bible Church article has a reputable book and two news articles that predate the candicacy. This is a large, successful church with a large congragation. I put up articles on churches and , more often, synagogues regularly. This one would qualify even without Palin. With her, you risk lookig as though you are suggesting deletion for political purposes. I suggest that you take down both deletion suggesitons. But, if you insist on goign forward, switch the rapid delete on Koons to Articles for Deletion. I know that there is a campaign on, but please take a deep breath and look at the sourcing.Elan26 (talk) 16:37, 3 September 2008 (UTC)Elan26

I don't care whether I "risk lookig as though you are suggesting deletion for political purposes". The truth is substantially different than that and that is all that matters. I looked at the sourcing and it seems quite obvious to me that the articles in question don't meet our standards per the relevant policies and guidelines and until they do they don't belong (BTW that goes for all articles not just the one's around this subject).

"Sarah Palin's Pastor" disambiguation

Please check out Sarah Palin's Pastor, Which is being amiguously used to refer to both Larry Kroons and Ed Kalnins, as well as Wasilla Asembly of God. The disambiguation page for Sarah Palin's Pastor, was deleted, and all quotes of Kalnins, as well as links to verfy he made them, were deleted.

There is a political campaign to keep the quotes out of Wikipedia, and the Wasilla Asembly of God link on the Sarah Palin page is broken and no one will fix it.

Wasilla Assembly of God has come to national attention for controversial political remarks of its pastor regarding George Bush and John Kerry.

According to Robert Stern of The New Jersey Times of Trenton reports that “The Rev. Ed Kalnins had no way of knowing he'd become a controversial figure in this year's presidential race when he left his West Amwell congregation nine years ago to preach in a sister church in Alaska.” Stern also writes that “Since taking his sermons to Alaska, Kalnins has preached that critics of President George Bush will be banished to hell; questioned whether people who voted for Sen. John Kerry in 2004 would be accepted into heaven...” http://www.nj.com/news/times/index.ssf?/base/news-5/1220414733189230.xml&coll=5

Mark Silva, White House correspondent for The Chicago Tribune, writes that “Kalnins has preached that critics of Bush will be banished to Hell, questioned if people who voted for Sen. John Kerry in 2004 would be accepted to Heaven, charged that the 9/11 terrorist attacks and Iraq were part of a war ‘contending for your faith’; and that Jesus ‘operated from that position of war mode’.” http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/09/palins_past_pastor_bushfoes_he.html#more

As reported by Among the quotes from which these reports are summaries are: 1. “What you see in Iraq, basically, is a manifestation of what's going on in this unseen world called the spirit world. ... We need to think like Jesus thinks. We are in a time and a season of war, and we need to think like that. We need to develop that instinct.” 2. “I hate criticisms towards the President because it's like criticisms towards the pastor -- it's almost like, it's not going to get you anywhere, you know, except for hell. That's what it'll get you." 3. "I'm not going tell you who to vote for, but if you vote for this particular person, I question your salvation." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/02/palins-church-may-have-sh_n_123205.html

(2) http://www.wasillaag.net/all.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by EricDiesel (talk • contribs) 17:54, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Elan26"

• And? none of the above shows notability and or verifiability in accordance with the policies and guidelines of wikipedia. Jasynnash2 (talk) 08:03, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

This article is no longer needed since I was able to get Larry Kroon and Ed Kalnins on the Sarah Palin page during the brief time that edits were allowed again. Note that Associated Press reports “Her pastor for most of her time at Wasilla Assembly of God, Paul Riley”, so Paul Riley should be on the Sarah Palin article. EricDiesel (talk) 15:10, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

CSD and Disambig pages

CSD A3 doesn't apply to disambiguation pages at all; it says so right in the template. :) There are things that can be done with very small disambig pages. When there's only ONE term, the page can be redirected to the one term. When there are two, the disambig page could redirect to one, and each can mention the other. In this case, there was only one live article. Either the page could be redirected to the one live page, or a brief stub could be written in the other place, and then the disambiguation page could be left alone. Mangojuice^talk 21:11, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

That's cool. Thanks for the response. I probably should have done the redirect in this case. Thanks again and I'll try to remember to read the actual template and not just the descriptions here next time. Jasynnash2 (talk) 07:43, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Duplicate information in multiple articles, re Kalnins and Kroon

I agree with your post to me on this. I think the exact quotes should ONLY be in articles on the individuals who made the quote. In related articles, there could be a brief summary of the content of the quotes, but the related articles should not get bogged down with the detail, or tarred with the quotes. For example, the Sarah Palin artivle is already too big. And Wasilla Assembly of God under pastor John Riley should not be tarred with the comments of Ed Kalnins, who may NOT have made the controversial remarks AT the church. (He did in reality, but suppose he did not for the sake of this argument).

To tell you the truth, I am burned out and feel like giving up on helping with this stuff. For example, all of the references I collected, like the New Jersey Trenton Times as just one example, were wiped, then the article deleted, and it is not worth looking the links up again. This is especially true since there is currently no where to post controversial remarks of, say, Larry Kroon. Especially if the remarks were not even made in Wasilla.

I do appreciate your patience and time in trying to mentor me. If you look on my User:EricDiesel page, I am working on other stuff. I was researching for an artricle on my good friend Paul Fleiss when your message came, and then on Heidi Fleiss, Andrei Tarkovsky, then Koichi Tamano and [Temple of Rudra]]. I am also doing some stuff on indcutive logic. This political related stuff is too time consuming, but a good way to kill time (my girlfriend just move across the Atlantic to do NeuroScice, I hate blogs and programming, and this non-academic historic research for encuclopedia articles is relaxing. But someone named Elan26 talked me out of quitting on the two pastors yesterday, so I am open to your doing the same. I don't think I can contribute more than my last post on this, until the issues I raised are addressed and there is a page to post sourced information on withuot it getting wiped within hours. Thanks again for all the time. EricDiesel (talk) 17:52, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

RE - Your remark, "I can't seem to find a straight forward answer to in the above"

Okay I'm not making much sense of all that. I've seen your contribs page and whatnot. That was why I asked the question which I can't seem to find a straight forward answer to in the above. I'm wondering what you've been doing for the previous year (reading articles? making contribs that have been deleted? reading the various help and how to pages? Jasynnash2 (talk) 15:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Here is the "straight forward answer". Sorry, but I thought your said July 2008, not July 2007. I do not know how to look up when accounts are created. In answer to your questions regarding "wondering what [I've] been doing for the previous year (reading articles? making contribs that have been deleted? reading the various help and how to pages?", my activities went like this - My girlfriend died. - Then in July-August 2007 my mother was taken to the emergency hospital and diagnosed with horrifically painful and debilitating blood/bone cancer in summer of 2007, so I moved 400 miles from my home to be her caregiver. – In July 2007, knowing no one in my mothers city, to have a social life I started volunteering to read books to blind senior citizens in their 90's with macular generation/ I met my best friend, 95 year old Laura Huxley, through Dr. Paul Fleiss, who was advising Laura on her blindness via macular degeneration. I became best friends with Laura - In August of 2007, I was scammed out of hundreds of thousands of dollars in a malicious prosecution back home 400 miles from my mother, as I was not able to make the constant court appearance and care for my mother. - My mother was back and forth from the emergency department in excruciating pain many times. With bone/blood cancer, she was in excruciating pain all over her body. The lack of white cells caused her to catch any infection. The lack of red blood cells caused anemia similar to hemorrhaging, so I had to do everything for her. The lack of blood platelets caused her to bleed from her lips, gums and nose. She was hospitalized half the time, costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, and she had no health insurance. My bank was broken. - So I naturally became interested in the health insurance debate. - My best friend Laura Huxley died in December 2007. - I met someone when going to Laura's wake, who became my new girlfriend. - In January 2008, I had an arbitrary default judgment take away my 260 acre Santa Cruz redwood forest, based on a phony impossible “personal” legal service, as I was not at my home but 400 miles away in another city, taking care of my mother. This made my real estate assets almost nothing, in addition to the medical bills with no health insurance. – So my home was foreclosed on in March 2008, causing the cancellation of my fire insurance policy. - Then my mother died in May 2008… - I could not afford a funeral - Two weeks later, the Summit Rd. California Santa Cruz fires you heard about in the national news reports, blazed through my former redwood forest. - Everything I owned burned down, including my extensive library of antique science books and all my physical assets, my orchard, my backhoe and equipment, and my vehicles. – My possessions were stored in cargo boxes on my former redwood forest. My extended homeowner fire insurance claim was denied since my home had just been foreclosed on. - Then my new girlfriend got a Neuroscience research job offer all the way in England, and had to move there in the middle of the summer, I could not read all year due to the stresses, so I bought a television after my girlfriend left. I began to watch the health care debate and related foreclosure debate on cable news on TV all day to keep from boredom, not being able to read as I was used to. I saw on TV that Palin’s pastor had views affecting her public policy decisions (including positions on going to war and on Jews) and I went on Wikipedia to look up the pastors. I could not find anything about them in Wikipedia, even their names. MSNBC started reporting that Palin was refusing any interviews or press conferences with anyone in the mainstream media. Pat Buchanan passionately argued with Chris Matthews on MSNBC that Palin is not "required" to do ANY interviews or news conferences before the election, if she does not want to. This was a total information blackout. So I decided to research and post information. Writing articles for the past three days has been distraction from my thoughts of the events in my life in 2007-8. But the fighting and name calling (the admin who deleted the articles called me “lazy”, so fat chance of getting the articles back up., and I generally refuse to even look at blogs because of the fighting. The number of very quickly arriving, almost identical in content delete arguments was far in excess of what was on other articles. The volume of similar delete messages also far exceeded the rate of spam arrival on my email accounts for the past three days. Not knowing details on how Wiki works, I thought these delete arguments were computer generated Spam, they were arriving so fast and were so similar, and ignored the changes made on the article in response to the reasons. The meaningless five-day Wiki policy was ignored for my article, leaving no time to correct the articles and address the volume of deletion arguments. I then thought Wiki was working essentially like a blog. Strangely, I am now arguing FOR fairness for Palin and her churches, since she should not be tarred by guilt by association. I argued to keep the actual quotes off her article. They should be on the pages of the persons making the quotes, unless there is an association with her other than that she was sitting there when they were made (which is not even shown yet for Kalnins). If you want more details of “what [I've] been doing for the previous year (reading articles?... “, I suggest you try going to a cancer ward and make friends with a friendless elderly cancer patient and take care of them when they are forced to leave the hospital for financial reasons. For more go to User:EricDiesel EricDiesel (talk) 20:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

added <s> to the beginning and </s>

Thanks. I have been deleting my incorrect comments, and no one told me how to write added <s> to the beginning and </s>

I made the strikes where you indicated. Thanks again. EricDiesel (talk) 21:18, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

MWNF

Hi! Re: your tagging here, mind having a look at my improvements? I think I addressed your issues and thus removed the tags. If not, let me know? Thanks! Have a good day TravellingCari 13:35, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Definitely needs to be prettier. I was just worried about content and sourcing because people have already tried to speedy and PROD it so I wanted to settle notability once and for all. We also need help from someone who can read German and/or Arabic as there are a lot of non-English sources to expand it from. I'll put it on my to-do list, but I'm not going to have time in the immediate future. TravellingCari 19:54, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Ben Hymers declined speedy

as it has references and asserts notability. Don't know if it would survive AFD. I hate it when anyone says someone "deserves" an article. GRR, I mean, Cheers, Dlohcierekim 14:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Please point out the "assertion" of importance/significance? Jasynnash2 (talk) 14:33, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Sherman, Texas bus accident

I added some information to Sherman, Texas bus accident. You may want to take a look at my comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sherman, Texas bus accident. --Eastmain (talk) 21:43, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll have a look. Jasynnash2 (talk) 07:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Howdy, Neighbor!

Just thought I'd drop by and say "Hi" :) Thanks for the backup on the Samwell Afd. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 02:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. The very idea they were spouting just pisses me off. It's like saying "everyone in the black community", "everyone in the asian community", etc. Utterly ridiculous. Jasynnash2 (talk) 07:44, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Switchboard as a service

FYI I have nominated this article for deletion. samj (talk) 07:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Uhhm. okay. Jasynnash2 (talk) 10:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Gillian Keith

Hi there. Excuse me for being a wikipedia beginner. I manage the careers of several opera singers. A handful of them already have wikpeida entries due, I suppose, to their high profiles. It occurred to me that another handful of them (by no means all of them, as I can completely understand that this is an encyclopedia and not an advertising vehicle) are probably worthy of inclusion. I started with Gillian Keith and created a page for her yesterday, as you know. You have deletions on that page and decsribed the link to more information about this very well known opera singer on my own website (details of her recrodings, reviews, forthcoming plans, etc) as Spam. Not knowing anything about who or what you are, I put it back. You then took it off again. I certainly don't have time to keep playing that game and suspect that my trying to include a little genuine information on Wikipeida will cease forthwith, but I'm intrigued to know, for instance, why Susan Gritton (as a very comparable and excellent singer with a very similar Wikipedia page) retains an unvandalised site, yet Gillian's is deemed invalid. I'd be really grateful to know what it is that I'm doing wrong and would be extremely grateful if you could spare a few minutes to reply and explain just where this all falls down- thanks for your time- peter Petermusichall (talk) 11:47, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

• Right. let's start at the beginning. I didn't mark the article for deletion. I simply noted that she may not be notable enough for inclusion. The award may make her notable enough or it may not depending on how significant that particular award actually is. Next, you need to read the policy on conflict of interest and understand that you shouldn't be writing articles about people you have a close relationship (not that you can't just that you shouldn't). The website which says that she is represented by so and so doesn't go towards her notability and only serves to make the article look like an advertisement for her agent (you apparently). By being a weblink that appears to exist strictly for advertising purposes it is spam (or at a minimum appears to be). If Ms Keith is truly notable enough for inclusion than this only goes towards hurting the case for inclusion by making the whole article look like an excuse to drum up business (whether it is or not). As for Susan Gritton's page, I can't answer as I haven't been there to see it. I'd suggest having a look at the following things for a start and perhaps posting on the editors assistance page which can be found at "recent changes" to get more help. Go to WP:N, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:COI, WP:SPAM, WP:MUSIC for a beginning. Jasynnash2 (talk) 12:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Suril Shah

Hi, this article has been modified and improved after it was nominated for AfD and few concerns were raised by the nominator and you. It seems to be in good shape now, I'd just like to know your views, if now it is good enough to "Keep" it. Or does it need any further editing/tailoring. Thanks for your inputs. Whizsurfer (talk) 15:09, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Santos F.C.

I have no strong views on the deletion of this page from what I remember of it, but was suprised to find it gone so quickly and it looks like I was the only person who received any notice even though I was not the original author. Is there anyway I could review the page now to see if I would have wanted to 'hang on' Bevo74 (talk) 17:00, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Best to check the deletion log to see which admin deleted it and contact them. I notified simply because you were the one that made the most changes so I figured you were the most important to notify. Jasynnash2 (talk) 07:55, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Joe Sernio

Hello. Im having some issues with my Wikipedia page Joe Sernio. I believe that it is all within good nature that friends, and family are trying to help by updating these articles, but it looks like some are thinking that things may be false or untrue and maybe even misleading due to them not obeying Wikipediad guidelines. Much information was deleted on my page, and i would like to try to help myself and wikipedia to keep this up. I can assure that it has all been referencd and is true. How can i fix this?

Thank you for your time, and help in this matter....... Joe Sernio —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.80.91 (talk) 13:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

• I believe I've answered this question for you before. I'm quite loathe to repeat myself yet again. Jasynnash2 (talk) 13:24, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

• My apologies for you having to repeat yourself, but some of my major credits are not good enough; I know they are referenced as they should be and as I studied the Wikipedia guide. I’m trying my best to make sure that anyone who shouldn’t be editing this, and has wrong information is not. As a performer, and hard worker I feel it is unfair that these issues are being created, and pointed at me with my career. Again I apologize for you having to deal with this but I’m just looking for some help to keep this up and going. It has been a very valuable source for others to keep updated, and a great source for information on my career. I just would like some guidance and help to keep this page active, and remove the deletion. Thank you again for your time and you cooperation on this. --71.250.127.26 (talk) 14:09, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Have you read Wikipedia's conflict of interest guidelines? Gwen Gale (talk) 13:28, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes i have, i thought it was going well, and everything was referenced as it should be. There is a lot missing now. How can i save this from being deleted. If it happens i guess it happens, but i can assure all of my work is true, and can be referenced.--71.250.127.26 (talk) 18:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The topic doesn't meet Wikipedia's notability standards. Either way, you or those you work with shouldn't be editing an article about you. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:10, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Doug Marks/Hawk

[1] This should give info on the noteability of the Hawk article. Gringo300 (talk) 15:59, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks. That is the same page as you have in the external links section at the article. I'm not saying it isn't notable just that the article should quite planely show why and reference accordingly within the body of the article. Jasynnash2 (talk) 16:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Animax

There is a need to have a Animax India and Animax Asia pages because these page have been watched by many people and also you are right about some points but still in the other hand Cartoon Network has also different pages country wise, which is important because there is a need to know more about the channels to the people who uses Wikipedia so it is very important to have these pages and also you cannot provide Information about 65 countries in just one page. It is a channel with the name is one but in every country is different.If it is a matter of way of writing so I will improve it but please not to delete these pages and there is the references and I will going to add more references if it is necessary--Sumit (talk) 08:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

• So why is the content virtually identical? And why do they make up the bulk of your contributions? The Animax Korea stub although in my opinion unneeded at least doesn't use the same material from the other Animax pages to possibly make itself look more important. We need to provide reliable 3rd party sourcing which covers the subject(s) in a significant manner and at the moment none of the articles seem to have this. I just think starting with one really good article and then spinning of stubs (with reliable sourcing) is the better way to go. You also may want to make yourself familiar with the conflict of interest policies as it appears at the moment (at least to me and I'm thinking probably to others) that it may be a problem. I have no control over whether they get deleted as I'm not an admin. You are allowed within the policies and guidelines of the project to remove the tags I placed on those articles but, I beg you to please really think about what I've said before you do and present your case for why they should stay on their individual talk pages using the policies and guidelines of the project to do so. Or better yet stubbify them to the same level as the Animax Korea article and provide some decent 3rd party sourcing which covers the subject in a significant manner in accordance with the notability, verifiability, and reliable sources policies. For what it is worth I'm having a look at present as well. Jasynnash2 (talk) 08:40, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

• • It is a Animax Indian part and also it is as different from other Animax part as comparable to Cartoon Network pages.So I again request you to not to delete this article or do not nominate Animax India in AfD I request you . let Animax Asia and Animax India.

I could not understand the 3rd party sourcing,please give some proper explanation, so I can provide 3rd party source.--Sumit (talk) 09:36, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe the 3rd party reliable sourcing which covers the subject in a significant manner is explained at both the verifiability, and reliable sources policies which I'm sure you are aware you can get to by clicking on the links provided. Jasynnash2 (talk) 10:06, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Animax Korea can merge with Animax Asia because there is Animax Korea wiki Korean page butAnimax India should not be merge with Animax Asia because Animax India (South Asia)'s programming differs from Animax Asia and the channels in East Asia, and is not a separate feed of Animax Asia, its broadcast by and is a sister channel of SONY TV India based in India. Animax Japan and Animax India while based in Asia are different from Animax Asia, Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong, in programming, management and broadcasting and there are many more reasons in it----Sumit (talk) 13:41, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

So basically, the one you aren't involved in can be merged but, the others can't? Than I suggest you find me the reliable 3rd party sources which cover the subject in a significant manner that I've asked for and you correct the article content so it isn't duplicated so much. Jasynnash2 (talk) 14:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I will provide reliable 3rd party sources and also cover the subject in a significant manner,give me some time for that----Sumit (talk) 02:30, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Regarding your speedy delete tag on Central 1 Credit Union

Hello! Sorry to bother, I wanted to let you know that I took your Speedy Delete tag off the article Central 1 Credit Union because it is actually a rather prominent financial institution -- a quick Google News search confirmed that. The article, however, is lacking references and I tagged it accordingly. I also informed its creator that it needs to be fixed up. I should state that your call was not a bad call -- the article, as it stands, is somewhat below par and the lack of references can easily create the impression that it doesn't belong here. I wanted to alert you about why I did what I did, since you obviously took the time to help improve the project, which I appreciate. Be well. Ecoleetage (talk) 15:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. My google search can find lots of quotes by staff but, I'm having real trouble trying to find significant coverage of the institution. With this search and this one anyway. I thought I was being nice but, not calling it spam. Guess I was wrong. Jasynnash2 (talk) 15:36, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

This might help some more: [2]. Thanks! Ecoleetage (talk) 01:01, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

"errant actions"

Jaynnash2, you referred something you called my "errant actions" on ANI. I was hoping you would return and explain what you meant by that. What do you think I have done wrong??? miniluv (talk) 16:07, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not going to get into too many specifics because it would probably just start an argument. All I'm saying is you made mistakes (removing the multiple PROD tags in the way you did maybe) and should be willing to admit at least to the possibility. I have no doubt you have the best of intentions but, I also have no doubt the other users also has the best of intentions and isn't stalking you or singling you out or bullying you or anything like that. Jasynnash2 (talk) 16:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

It's been made clear to me that I did nothing wrong by removing those notices. I understand that you're not looking for an argument so I'll leave it there. miniluv (talk) 16:24, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

okay again I think it might be a wording problem. removing the tags wasn't wrong but, maybe addressing why you removed them on the article talk pages would have helped stave off the confusion that seems to have erupted. Jasynnash2 (talk) 16:28, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

You're right. It probably would. But I haven't ever seen anyone else do that. miniluv (talk) 16:35, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

It takes time and experience. I just tend to think of it as a courtesy. Now you know and can spread the word. Maybe with enough of us doing so it will catch on. Jasynnash2 (talk) 16:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

CADO Systems

In the 1970s, there were quite a few small and medium size computer companies serving obscure vertical markets with their own hardware/OS/application brews. (In the interview linked, you'll read that CADO "dominated" in ... word processors for congressional offices.) The public hardly ever heard about them. Some of them were real pioneers. There's no article Four Phase Systems, but check out Four Phase Systems AL1 -- perhaps the first commercial use of a microprocessor?! Microcomputer local area networking arguably started with Datapoint and its ARCNET, which you never hear about these days. Maybe CADO pioneered something as well?

I go back far enough to have memories of CADO, and was already programming minicomputer systems in the early 1970s, but CADO didn't ring a bell. Still, a Google News Archive search does reveal some press notices. Nobody's making this company up.

Admittedly, these press mentions are brief. So there might be a notability issue here, for some people.

On the other hand, Wikipedia is increasingly a collection of specialized encyclopedias, and CADO has apparently been mentioned in one such (print) encyclopedia, according to the article about the company. OK, yeah, I'm a computer geek going way back. Perhaps I'm biased. But I think articles like these are a good antidote to the misconception that everything pre-PC or pre-Apple was "pre-computer", or even "pre-personal computer". Word processing, databases, spreadsheets, even desktop publishing and CAD were available in various combinations on various vertical market platforms, both standalone and timeshared. Apple and IBM just made the platforms increasingly generic and affordable.

So I think CADO Systems is legit, though perhaps only as a brief article. The CADO "Technical Information" article is another issue. Some of that info could be folded into CADO Systems, other parts of it into some article on the language CADOL. I don't see any case for it as a freestanding article. But I have to give the author credit for turning this stuff up, and maybe you should too.

Hope this helps. 60.42.122.78 (talk) 15:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Credit granted. The existance of the thing was never in question. I was just looking for some people that knew what the article was going on about to help fix the content issues. Trying to avoid any WP:OWN issues in the process. The more reliable people making decent edits to articles the better as far as I'm concerned. Jasynnash2 (talk) 08:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Steel workers

I'm having a hard time following it too, it's a bit tl;dr. What exactly is the problem? Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 16:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

That's part of the problem. Basic history as I understand it was the article had only one reference when I came across it (in my opinion not a great one.. and note I'm saying opinion) so I tagged it for notability and refimprove. The admin removed the notability tag with what seemed to be an "we don't need to prove its notable because it is thing". I replaced the tag pointing out that it specifically says the issues should be addressed by adding references to reliable 3rd party sources and it spiraled from there. I think it may in fact boil down to a personality thing or just me wording things badly but, needed somesort of other input to make sure cause I keep trying to explain my thinking (which boils down to notability should be made as obvious as possible to any user that happens by and referenced as fully as possible whereas the other contributor seems to be saying that only the minimum needs to be down in accordance with the policies/guidelines). I think we are both probably correct in our own ways but, that "my way" is more helpful to users that aren't admins and such. The problem is either the "debate" in session and trying to get a 3rd opinion, the way I seem to inadequately express myself, or both depending on how you look at it. Jasynnash2 (talk) 07:54, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

David Winters

Thank you for the heads up. I hope I can keep this article running. I am not sure of his notability. I tried very hard to find substantive proof of the claims. The page definitely needs to be redesigned. But the fact that another user added a lot of stuff, within hours, suggested to me, I am not the only person that considers this man notable. Anyone viewing his sequence in the 1967 TV special Movin with nancy, should want to start a new church. LOL. Ok, I am a bit enthusiastic. I will work to get the page to conform to other pages within the minor star genre. I will probably ape another of my pet minors, Joan Alexander, she and I share a birth city.  :-) --K3vin (talk) 00:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I suppose one of my concerns with whether this David Winters is the same person as the other redlink at the dab page? Additionally, making sure we have proper significant coverage from reliable 3rd party sources and separating real from fake, notable from non-notable, etc. Jasynnash2 (talk) 07:56, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of Z Corporation Page

Hi, you deleted the Z Corporation page I created yesterday, even though the page met all the article requirements, and included a third-party reference that is used on another article's page. The Z Corporation article contained only factual, instructional information, rather than any promotional information. The Stratasys article however is highly promotional, contains no third-party references, yet remains live. This seems to be an unfair implementation on the site. Please advise. I request to have the Z Corporation page reinstated, or at a minimum, please advise what needs to be done to that page in order to have it reinstated.Asarkof (talk) 14:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually I didn't delete it Though if you check the deletion logs you will be able to see who did. If the other article you speak of is indeed inappropriate than you are within your rights to bring that to the attention of an admin in the same way I did with the spam Z Corporation artilce. Jasynnash2 (talk) 08:20, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

David Winters (choreographer)‎

If you think the account has been compromised, you can ask an admin with checkuser authority to look into it. Corvus cornix_talk 18:39, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I did not know how to confirm or eliminate whether David Winters (director) is the David Winters (choreographer) but since it was a red link, I felt no need to it to remain on the DAP. I am feverishly working on citing all claims of notability for Mr Winters, and am searching for freely distributable images.--K3vin (talk) 10:42, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

This man was a star of a major motion picture, much less notability is present in slews of pages of minor characters in pop culture. I understand Notability and notoriety are not the same. But given the transcient qualities of notability, I see the concern raised. Does WP strive to be the source for info that someone saw on a DVD of a Raquel Welch TV special? I am striving to document every single allegation in the article. This is not the case of a wiki pedia article on one of the doublemint twins. But take into consideration my ancestor's sky scraper in New York. In its day, it produced Pianos that were the rival of Steinway, yet the company closed with the death of one of the brothers, and now the building is notable for being the location of Andy Warhol's Factory. Quite interesting anecdote, considering I was going to be quoting the 15 minutes of fame argument. I feel Winters should be notable.

ps if you check my edits, you will note I tend to lean toward the obscure, and unusual. Tiny townships or obscure redlight histories of national landmarks.  :-) I am not notable, but am enthusiastic of what Wikipedia can be. I have wiki software on my home computer, just for my own use :-)

--K3vin (talk) 04:07, 25 September 2008 (UTC)--K3vin (talk) 05:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch

• Thank you for your recent participation in the AFD which closed with a snow result of Keep. Unfortunately, the nominator is not content with this consensus and is now proposing that the article be merged. Please see discussion. Colonel Warden (talk) 21:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Blood Circus

Why would you write a critique of someone adding citations to an article, and then delete it under the comment "reverting myself as it may be construed as bitey"? (See here and here) I think it should be left up.

Talk pages are an archive of what actually occurred behind the scenes during the process of making an article, and should IMHO not be edited to change what was written (I think they should be delete protected somehow). Perhaps leaving it on the talk page would give the reader a more telling view of the editors and what they had in mind while they were composing (or asking to delete) the article.

I do have a link to the text of the cited article if you'd care to read it. It's just no longer available on line for free from a credible source like the Washington Post (The text of the Washington Post article). You may not know this but there was a whole lot of information available before the advent of the internet that you still cannot get for free online. I'm sorry that it may not meet "your" notability guidelines, but I'm pretty sure it falls within WP:Sources#Sources

In the future should you feel your statement about something will embarrass you or put you in an unfavorable light, please refrain from writing it at all. Then no one will know what you're really thinking.--Feddx (talk) 17:25, 25 September 2008 (UTC) I've added some further references to it. Bearcat (talk) 01:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Blood Circus

I have known The Rigatuso Family for over 60 years. Please read the real Biography of Santo Rigatuso (SANTO GOLD.) Much of this information can be found in Archives that Preceded the Internet.

BIOGRAPHY:

Santo Gold is a Living Legend since 1983. He is known and respected Worldwide by millions. His songs and performances have aired on National TV hundreds of thousands of times. He spent close to Fifty million dollars promoting his name Santo Gold. If you are over 36, You got to know Santo Gold. He was spending as much as a million dollars on National TV each month. All of his commercials had him singing and performing in them. The Santo Gold (30 minute) Show out rated "I Love Lucy." If the public did not see him during the day or on weekends, they would wait up all night to see him. His infomercial's and TV ads., ran 7 days a week 24 hours a day. He was USA Networks best customer. Every Saturday for nearly ten years in a row, his TV Commercials would air, on over 400 TV stations and most all of the National Cable Stations. SANTO GOLD sung and danced in each one of his commercials, especially in Vince McMahons Wrestling shows. Santo Gold also hosted and produced "The Auction on the Air TV Shopping Network" which he founded in the mid 80s. He was dressed in character, sung and danced. It was like a continuous 24/7 New Years Party. His Network was live 24 hours a day and 7 days a week. Then he aired and performed on the entire ABC Network at around 8PM Pacific time. He hired 3 inbound telemarketing Centers and thousands of operators to take the phone calls. He had 3 800 numbers on the TV screen. He received so many calls that it blew out all of the phone circuits and they were down for hours. He got into some sort of trouble with his catalogue project and over 3500 of his customers wrote in with their letters of support for him stating that they received everything that they expected and were happy with their orders. On Feb., 9, 1985 he hired an entire film crew and rented millions of dollars worth of film equipment from NY. Then he leased the Baltimore Civic Centre. Tractors and trailers full of movie equipment rolled in. He had 9 35 mm motion picture cameras, a train track surrounding the wrestling ring. They shot over 400,000 ft. of film. That is enough film to make 8 full length motion pictures. All of the cameras were remote control and were connected to moniters, even the one above the ring. The Golden Wrestling mat had his Name on it, SANTO GOLD. He hired a 40 piece orchestra, dancers, acrobats, cycle acts, and clowns and built a large stage at the opposite side of the wrestling ring. People were dancing and singing non stop for nearly 9 hours straight. Each attendent was handed a scream bag, had to pay to get in and sign a waiver that they were going to be in his movie. It was a long day, many wrestling fans were irritated that the show stopped and started to load up the cameras and prepare for the next scenes. They expected continuous non stop wrestling. There were thousands of people there. Right before Santo Gold performed, thousands of people were chanting "We want Santo Gold," We want SANTO GOLD." The place was roaring. Santo Gold pulls up in a chauffeur driven stretched white Lemo with several Guards and everyone was trying to touch his shiny attire. He throws hugs and kisses to everyone and was followed by the crowd to the very crowded stage. He was announced with an opening that Elvis Himself would have been proud of. When he presented the finished movie, Blood Circus at The Cannes Film Festival in France. He had nearly a dozen offers from several Countries and he turned them all down. He was fully dressed in the Santo Gold character and travelled with an actual armed guard (an off duty Police officer.) He then took the film to Hollywood and screened it at all of the major studios. 20 Century Fox exclaimed that it had the best sound track that they have ever heard. Then He screened it in NYC. During the 80s., over 20 of his TV commercials were running all at the same time with him singing and performing in each one. Each TV station ran his spots at least 10 times a day. He aired on over 440 TV stations at the same time for nearly 10 years. That's 4400 times a week, 30,800 times a month and 369,600 times a year for nearly 10 years. Millions of people had seen him sing and perform millions of times in the 80s. He was a household word and still is. People would call their friends, SANTO GOLD, or make statements like "Now don't be a Santo Gold." He has stayed active in the industry for over 23 years. At the age of 14, he worked in a small store that his Father opened for him. His Father and Grand Father had a Barbershop within viewing distance of the now Baltimore Stadiums. His Grand Father started the Barbershop fifty years earlier. They both passed away within 8 months apart. Santo became the second youngest State Licensed Barber In Baltimore at the age of 16. It wasn't long before he turned the back room of the barber shop into a music store. He advertised the store with full column ads., in the Baltimore News American Newspapers. During Christmas time he sold more drum sets then Montgomery Wards was selling. He advertised himself as "The Drum King of Baltimore." He would cut hair for 0.75 a head, earning $40.00 to $60.00 a day. He would close up the barber shop 6:30 pm., with dozens of people waiting in lineed up all the way around the corner waiting to get into the music store. He was the soul support for his Mom and younger brother. His broyher joined the Marines. Santo was born within blocks of the B&O Railroad, Babe Ruth's home, Edgar Allen Poe's burial place, The Headquarters for Montgomery Wards and the Baltimore Harbour. He is a devout Catholic and is very caring. He was an alter boy, a lector, and collected for many worthwhile charities. He would do anything for you. In the early eighty's, Santo created the name "Santo Gold." He had a special tuxedo made with golden chains sewn to it. He wore pounds of chains around his neck, a Gold Bullion and mirrored glasses. He created a character and became Santo Gold. He hired several manufactures to develop jewelry with a thin layer of actual 24k Gold. The items were not suppose to tarnish but many did. He would always make good and send his customers more from other factories or gave them refunds. He started his own National delivery service called "Happy Delivery Service" and hired people Nationwide to deliver the jewelry and collect the COD (cash on delivery)funds. It worked for awhile but many of his delivery people kept the cash for themselves. He created a catalogue with thousands of items in it. He gave everyone credit to purchase items from the catalogue. He sold millions of items including millions of pieces of jewelry. Many of his customers tried to pawn the bracelets, only to learn that they were not solid Gold. He never claimed that they were. He always stated that it was gold over metal. He lived 2 blocks from The B&O (Baltimore and Ohio Railroad) The Railroad offices had a Major 5 to 8 alarm fire. A Fireman was trapped in the basement, begging for help. The building was burning out of control. The Fireman was pleading for his life. There were many boilers in the basement ready to explode. Santo risked his own life and rescued the Fireman, saving his own and the Fireman's life. Tragically within minutes, the boilers exploded and the entire building including the basement was engulfed in flames. In the early eighty's Santo founded a pen pal club and had thousands of his customers correspond with thousands of seniors in Nursing homes all over America. During Easter he would place an Easter Bunny at the downtown McCoreys. During Christmas, he would send children Records from Santa Claus. One day Santo decided to attend business classes. He signed up for an evening schedule. One of the teachers was a CPA. He handed Santo his business card. Santo hired the CPA to do his taxes which were always current. The CPA had a nervous breakdown and lost all of Santo,s paperwork. Santo did not understand how to prepare taxes. Several years went by and he received a call from someone and said that his tax papers were found in a bottom of a barrel. He sent $18,000 to IRS but did not give them his social security number. IRS returned the funds and requested a social. More years went by and IRS sent him a letter. His attorney said, "Don't respond, "I will take care of it for you.", and never did" Santo had around 60 employees, many of them were stealing from him and throwing the orders in the trash and keeping the cash for themself. This led to a Postal Inspector visit. He called his Attorney and he was advised not to let the Inspector perform a search without a warrant. Santo wanted the Inspector to do the search and believed that there was nothing he was hiding. The next day two Postal trucks came with 8 more Inspectors and all of his files were taken. His notoriety caught the attention of the Press, we was now being attacked on TV and made front page headlines. A Prosecutor told him that they could not get him on mail fraud charges, since only 2 people showed up to complain, but insisted that they would get him on tax evasion and they did. On his last promotion that he did. He took a check to the Post Office for 1.5 million dollars. It was reported to have brought in over 4 million dollars. It was all ceased by The Post Office and it was also reported that postal employees stole thousands of dollars in cash from the envelopes. Please keep his History alive, this is what Wikipedia is all about. This is why you get Contributions, to keep the truth in History. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.94.106.244 (talk) 10:54, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Competition Cams Article

• Comment - The Competition Cams article has been completely rewritten and re-cited with new, more credible sources. I urge each of the editors that has previously voted against the articles notability, neutrality, etc. to please reconsider.

--Jabarke1 (talk) 19:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)