Jusherman

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Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Eurovision Song Contest

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Thanks and have a nice day! Grk1011 (talk) 13:18, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Song links in Eurovision participation overviews

Hi, I'm just wondering what are you trying to do with the participation overview sections? You keep changing it to interlanguage links and then to something else again. I personally don't really care whether or not there are interlanguage links; they may be useful to some people but to most people they won't be. But I do try to make sure the tables are properly formatted to be user friendly and compliant with Wikipedia guidelines, but every time I fix things you change it again. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 22:57, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I thought it would be more interesting looking into the song links that aren’t in English, but in the country’s native language. If you’d like, I’ll get rid of the inter language links. Jusherman (talk) 01:12, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

If I do, I’ll remove the inter language links from the songs, but not from the artists because I don’t want viewers to believe they participated under a different name (the links for returning artists are only present once, and sometimes only the first name shows up.) Jusherman (talk) 01:21, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

I would also revert the links back to their participation from the contest (I.e. format it like this [[[xcountry] in the Eurovision Song Contest xxxx|[xcountry]]]), since 1: Viewers would care more about what that country did at the contest, and 2: think the “redirected to” note makes people believe there’s something missing Jusherman (talk) 02:55, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

As I said, I don't mind the interlanguage links, and I'd be fine either way. I'm just trying to keep things consistent and properly formatted.

I don't think it makes sense though to link the title of the song to the country's participation in the contest, because anyone would expect the link to go to the song instead (see MOS:INTUITIVENESS). Many pages for songs redirect to the participation articles anyway, but it's still better to link to that redirect instead. As explained in MOS:RDR, if you want to create an article about the song, then you can just replace the redirect with the article and all other articles will automatically link to the new one. Additionally, the "Redirected from" message is actually helpful because it shows you why you landed on a page that you may not have expected to land on. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 22:35, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

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Your contributions: ESC 1964

Hi Jusherman! I appreciate your contributions. However, the contributions you made yesterday to the article ESC 1964 lack any sources. Please provide reliable sources. The statement that three rehearsals took place is not supported by the source I added to the original sentence a few weeks ago so please add an additional reference. The other statements about the lost recordings are completely without any source. Unsourced material may be removed. --EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 07:34, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I undid your contributions now. You are welcome to re-add them once you cite reliable published sources. For more information, see WP:V --EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 12:57, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

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MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 03:51, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Your edits of Netherlands in the Eurovision Song Contest 1956

Hello, I'm EurovisionLibrarian. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Netherlands in the Eurovision Song Contest 1956, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 19:25, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

My apologies for my lack of sourcing material. My source came from the Dutch website, Eurovision Artists. Unfortunately I’m not sure how to copy and paste the exact link to the 1956 Nationaal Songfestival page, since the link doesn’t change when under a new page. I’d like it if you could link the page on the article for me. Jusherman (talk) 06:55, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

eurovisionartists.nl is a fansite, and therefore has to be taken with caution. It could even be considered as UGC which would disqualify it from being used as a source, see WP:UGC / WP:RS. I have looked only a few times on their historical “database” to know what they write there. Unfortunately, the website (with its early 2000s design) seems to be down / have technical issues often. Much information, especially on old national finals, seems outdated or wrong, in my opinion. In rare cases, someone seems to base the information on newspaper articles and cites their sources. But in most cases, it’s as if it was information passed on from generation to generation without anyone ever fact-checking it and in the end, no-one knows where it came from. This is a general problem with a lot of fansites.

In my opinion, it is therefore vital to trust only reliable sources. What do I mean by that? Examples are contemporary sources i.e. sources from that time (in this case 1956): historical newspaper and TV listings magazine articles, press releases, archival documents and video recordings, if they exist. One can also look upon interviews done later with participants or persons involved in the national final, as well as biographies. In some cases, book publications on the history of national finals of a certain country exist, with the author giving evidence / citing their sources or being a clear expert from inside the broadcaster. Official web sites of broadcasters themselves can also help.

In the case of Netherlands 1956, much historical newspapers and TV listings magazines are fortunately available online on Delpher, a platform with digitised material from the Dutch Royal Library (KB). They probably scanned almost all Dutch newspapers and TV magazines from 1956 so a search there gives a very good picture of what can be found out. The NF seems not to have been recorded so there is no video. If you can find anything on Delpher from 1956 about the last artist-song matches in the table or the running order, feel free to include these sources. I have done searches with keywords such as “eurovisie” and “songfestival” but it is possible that I haven’t found and read everything that is there about the NF. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 13:42, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I asked a Dutch researcher who I’ve been in contact for 2 years who knows a lot about Eurovision and the Dutch selections. He advised me to use Eurovision Artists as a source, since they sometimes use reliable sources themselves. He also works on the website.

If it helps, he also sent me photos of a book about Dutch Eurovision selections, and one of the pages had the same running order as the one in Eurovision Artists. Unfortunately I didn’t ask for the title or details on this book, but I hope it’s enough to be considered viable proof. Jusherman (talk) 04:23, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean by "they sometimes use reliable sources"? Sometimes they don’t and just copy things from the internet or try to guess? Don’t misunderstand me, I don’t want to devalorise the work of your friend or someone’s contributions to that fansite. In my opinion, Wikipedia’s policies are comparatively clear in respect to referencing and sources and I would like to raise the quality of articles. If someone tells me “I know the running order of Netherlands 56!”, I’m naturally suspicious because there is hardly any way to find out the running order with true historical sources since the running order was never published in a newspaper and there are no recordings. In other ways, information about 1956 which is only present on a fan website from the 2000s and with no sources mentioned has a high probability of being incorrect.

If the same information has been published in a book, that could be a better option depending on who is the author and whether there is any information in the book about how the information was compiled (which sources were used). It is also possible that the information which one can find on eurovisionartists.nl stems from that book, and then the original source (the book) is better to give as a reference. Could you find out a little bit more about that book (because obviously it is not enough to write “some book in Dutch but I don’t know the title” as reference ;-) ? If you have a photo/scan of the corresponding pages I can also take a look upon it. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 11:59, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

My claim about the “sometimes using reliable sources” mainly comes from the fact that they sometimes use the Eurovision Song Contest National Finals Homepage website for information on national finals that aren’t Dutch. I’ve noticed this website is planned to be relegated as an unreliable source due to it being a fan site. (Even though it gets its sources from official OGAE handbooks and feedback from people, so long as they provide reliable sources. Recently, I handed them photos and information I found about early Swiss selections, and they added them to the site.)

According to the researcher, Eurovision Artists have been around since 1977, and has been referred to as the press by NOS (Nederlandse Omroep Stichting). They also use borrowed information from the broadcaster, which encourages them.

When they do use sources reliable for Wikipedia, they get them from published books about the topics. He also told me Beeld en Geluid uses their database and have all editions documented on their magazine of archives. In the case it’s not enough, I’ll ask him about the title of the book and its author. I’m not sure how to send you the photos of the book. Jusherman (talk) 12:15, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

As to the book, you can send me an email by using Wikipedia’s function Emailing users:

Special:EmailUser/EurovisionLibrarian (or go to my user page > menu "Tools" > "Email this user")

For obvious reasons, I don’t want to post my email address here in public. In order to send me an email, you may need to enable the function if you haven’t done it yet. See WP:EMAIL for help.

As for eurovisionartists.nl: well, I was focusing more on that particular case of NL 1956 and the specific info on running order, for example, but I see that the potential scope in fact is much wider. Your message goes more in the direction of the general recognition as a reliable source. Since this is indeed complicated and based on statements that I cannot verify, I propose getting a third opinion and help from other Wikipedians. Please start a new discussion on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard about eurovisionartists.nl with the specific case of its database and NL 1956. This will help determine whether eurovisionartists.nl can or cannot be used in the future as a source for other national finals, too, and may be a more efficient and transparent way in the end than just us two debating. --EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 12:50, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

The book was published in 2005 and is called Wanneer wordt het weer een beetje net als toen? by author Ferry K. van der Zant, whose been a fan of the contest since 1959. The book covers all of the selections the Netherlands held for Eurovision up to 2005. By the looks of online mentions of the book, there appears to be two parts of the book; one covering 1956-80, and the other covering 1981-2005. Jusherman (talk) 06:44, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for that information. I will try to look whether the book is available in a library somewhere and try to look into it. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 18:57, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

P.S: Wikipedia:Emailing users is the help page I wanted to link but forgot to do so. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 12:51, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

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