KKonstantin

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Cossacks

Ruthenian means historic term for a dweller of the Kievan Rus. Russian means dweller of the Russian empire and has been wrongly accredited to Great Ruthenians in the start of the 20th century. Cossacks are Russian, Ruthenian but neither Great Ruthenian (Russian) nor Little Ruthenian (Ukrainian). Also no need to put censos figures for the Kuban. In 2002 Cossacks appear as a destinct subgroup of Russians on it (along with Great Ruthenians and Pomorians). So the Ukrainian population that you quote is not even Cossack descent. --Kuban Cossack 15:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Russians (Russian: Русские - Russkiye) are an East Slavic ethnic group, primarily living in Russia and neighboring countries. Russian is not a dweller of the Russian Empire. Even if it is, the Russian Empire at the moment does not include Ukraine and Pereyaslavl as it part. So to disambiguate I offer to put "Cossacks in the Russian Empire" or just "cossacks" or "Ruthenian Cossacks". Regarding censuses, I think we need to mention these figures because it is said that Kuban Cossacks "do not identify themselves as Ukrainians". So I think it is proper to add "due to Russification policy of Imperial Russia and USSR (in mid XIX century Ukrainians accounted to 44% of the Kuban area population, according to 1926 census only to 30,5%, whereas in 1989 only to 2.5%)." or at least "However it must be noticed here that in mid XIX century Ukrainians accounted to 44% of the Kuban area population, according to 1926 census only to 30,5%, whereas in 1989 only to 2.5%)."--KKonstantin 20:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Cossacks in Russian Empire were all Russians because the Dnieper Cossacks, our ancestors, Zaporozhians never called themselves Ukrainians nor Great Russians. The mid (actually 1897) census that you quote did not distinguish nationalities but rather languages. And our Kuban dialect, balachka can be seen related to Ukrainian. 1926 census decided to split 50:50 simply because they did not know how to distinguish since it obvious that the dialect was related to Ukrainian, however none (and I repeat NONE) chose to identify themselves as Ukrainians. From the 1930s all Cossack descendents were listed under Russians. (The Ukrainian population would normally come from the minority of non-Cossack migrants and from the 1930s you can see clearely on censuses that the percentage of Ukrainians in the Kuban is not greater than other areas of Russia from Karelia to Yakutia) Finally after 1994 the Cossacks were seen as separate Russian subgooup. As for Russification...how can someone make us Cossacks more Russian? --Kuban Cossack 16:44, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

1. I did not try to persuade you that Kuban Cossacks are Ukrainians.

I only asked that you agree to put ‘Ruthenian’ instead of ‘Russian’ in subtopic ‘Russian Cossacks’.

You say “Cossacks are Russian, Ruthenian but neither Great Ruthenian (Russian) nor Little Ruthenian (Ukrainian)”. O.K., but if ‘Russian’ and ‘Ruthenian’ are interchangeable for you (you use Ruthenian several times above in the same manner as I mean), then why you do not agree to put “Ruthenian Cossacks” or just “Cossacks” at least in the first three paragraphs of the sub-article “Russian Cossacks” where it is said about those times when Russian Empire did not exist or did not include Zaporozhian Host and Don Host and therefore you cannot call these Cossacks Russian on the basis of being “dweller of the Russian empire” as you say? They were not dwellers of the Russian empire at that time.

Regarding the name of sub-article “Russian Cossacks”. If you wish to emphasize that this part is saying mostly about Russian Empire, then why you do not agree to name this sub-article “Cossacks in the Russian Empire” instead of “Russian Cossacks”?

Only you and I understand the difference between Great Ruthenians (Russains) and Little Ruthenians (Ukrainians), and only you and I know that term ‘Russian’ “has been wrongly accredited to Great Ruthenians in the start of the 20th century” as you say above and I agree absolutely. But when someone from Poland or USA reads the article ‘Russian Cossacks’, he certainly thinks of “Great Russian” Cossacks which is not fair because as you say Great Russians have nothing to do with Cossacks.

So I ask you to agree to amend the article as I offer.

You contradict yourself, its fact that for most Americans and Polish see the dwellers of Russia as Russians. In that case the topic on Russian Cossacks is translated as Rossiyskiye Kazaki not Russkiye Kazaki.

2. As for Kuban Cossacks being not Ukrainians (this offtop certainly, but we talk about it if you wish).

It is no wonder that Kuban Cossacks did not identify themselves as Ukrainian since the Ukrainians living in the modern-day Ukraine identified themselves as Ukrainians only starting from 1830s (see article “Name of Ukraine” on Wikipedia). And the Western part of Ukraine identified themselves as Ukrainians only in 1920s. Before that Ukrainians called themselves Rus’ki. And even now in the most western part of Ukraine people call themselves Rus’ki and Rusyn.

Therefore calling themselves Rus’ki for a Ukrainian is normal thing. Rus’ki and Ukrainian are interchangeable, especially in the remote (from the center) parts of Ukrainian ethnos where people did not know that Mykola Kostomarov offerred (and the rest agreed) to call themselves Ukrainians to differentiate from Great Russians.

Kuban is the most remote part of Ukrainian ethnos which was separated from the rest of Ukraine for a longest time (first due to geographical reasons and then due to non-inclusion in the Ukrainian SSR).

You can find a lot of examples when some Empire supports that part of a suppressed nation does not identify itself with the rest of it. For instance Valencians do not identify themselves to be Catalonians however the rest of the world does view them as part of Catalonian nation (there is no difference between Valancian and Catalan language).

Also it does not matter whether some of Ukrainian population is or is not of Cossack descent. This is a racial question, not ethnographic. Each nation is formed by assimilation of some previous population. Remnants of Scythians, Sarmatians, Goths etc. were assimilated by the Slavic tribes leading to formation of Ukrainians (see article “Ukrainians” on the Wikipedia). So if you go to the West of Ukraine, you will see that people are shorter there compared to people in the Center of Ukraine, where they are taller because in the West they almost purely Slavic, while in the east they had a lot of blood blending with different nations. It does not make some of them non-Ukrainians.

By the way term Ukraine (Ukrajina) is “an old word for the Cossack motherland” as you can read from article “Ukrainian language” on Wikipedia.KKonstantin 15:35, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

We are Cossacks, but we are still Russikiye. To us Ukrainets = citizen of Ukraine. Ethnically the East Slavic ethnos consist of Ruthenians: Great, Small, White and Carpathian Rusins, Pomorians (live in the North mostely Arkhangelsk and Karelia) and Cossacks.

As for Cossacks, nationality we are Russkiye. Ok, we are not Ukraintsy (I know its painful to svidomy ears, but that is truth). Ethnically we are a big Kasha - In my blood there is Circassian, Greek, Serb, Bulgarian probably Turkish and who knows what else from all the war brides that my great grandfathers brought back during the Imperial times. Have a read of this article. It clearely shows that on the Kuban there is no higher abundancy of people with Ukrainian surnames than elsewhere in Russia. (In our whole stanitsa there is not a single -enko or -chuk). What it does not say that practically everybody will have Kuban Cossack lineage amongst the Rural population, and that right now about 25 000 of them are in active Cossack service, none of whom call themselves Ukrainians. As for our political stand. Well, Galicia (Spanish Galicia that is) will swear eternal loyalty to Moscow before we do to Kiev.:) Finally not being 100% slavic means NOTHING to me, Pushkin was a Russian poet for that fact.

The only last thing that remains of our Zaporozhian heritage is our balachka dialect. However there are Ukrainians in Ukraine that speak Russian (or Surzhik) as their native language, so why can't there be a mirror situation? Conclusion - Kuban was NEVER part of the Ukrainian ethnos altogether. As for the origin of the word then actually you will find that it dates much much older back to ancient Kievan Rus chronicles, calling the southern borderland. Cossacks would only come a few centuries later.

As for western Ukrainians - my wife is from Rivne, and what she lacks in height she makes up with gossiping (t.e. baltlivaya...uzhas, no ya vse ravno ee lyublyu). :) --Kuban Cossack 18:42, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I have looked into the article you give. First, it is again mostly racial, not ethno study: blood etc. I do not think that you consider yourselves a close relative of Mariytsy, etc., at least before you read this article. Be honest. (Also when you say about “big Kasha - In my blood there is Circassian, Greek, Serb, Bulgarian” it is also racial, not ethno). According to this article there is a big difference between western Ukrainians and eastern ones (much bigger than between estern Ukrainians and Russians). But both western and eastern consider themselves Ukrainians because ethno and racial are different things!

But what matters in ethno is language. (when you say about Russain language in Ukraine it is a different thing: all former colonies use the language of the former Empire for some time after the collapse of the Empire).

Second, this study says that there is almost no difference between eastern Ukrainian and Russains. So Kuban Cossack can be just eastern Ukrainians. And they are according to my opinion.

As for the surnames. This does not matter anything as surnames in the western and in the eastern Ukraine are different, but this does not make us different nation. Surnames depend on the country people live: western Ukrainians were living in Austria-Hungary for a long time, eastern - in Poland and Russia, Kuban Cossacks always in Russia and close to Caucasus. That’s why there are differences.

Last, this study was done by Russian scientists. Unfortunately in Russia there is always politically right interpretation (even if the study itself is good) of each thing (it is called “propaganda” – for normal non-Russian people it is disgusting to watch biased Russian TV news).

You consider yourselves Russian for political reasons as when growing up, you have never heard another opinion on Russian TV, radio etc. So you were MADE Russian. Have you ever seen anyone on Russian TV giving interview on "balachka"? Why not? Because it is politically not good.

Read these articles from “Ukrainians” references of Wikipedia

http://www.zerkalo-nedeli.com/ie/show/555/50610 http://www.zerkalo-nedeli.com/nn/show/328/29376 http://www.zerkalo-nedeli.com/nn/show/543/49862

where you can see that Ukrainians were called Rusyn etc. in the beginning. Kuban Cossacks name for itself was easily transformed by Soviet and Russian propaganda from Rusyn / Rus’ki to Russkiy.

Anyway we went to far from the topic I guess. Regarding “Russian Cossacks”. What about the first three paragraphs of the “Russian Cossacks” where it is said not about the dwellers of the Russian Empire. “Russian” should be deleted there. Do you agree?KKonstantin 00:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

1. But both western and eastern consider themselves Ukrainians because ethno and racial are different things!Yes, and based on some sources, it can be well said that Novorossiyans and Donbasians were MADE into Ukrainians in the 1920s Ukrainisation period. :)
2. all former colonies use the language of the former Empire for some time after the collapse of the Empire Russian Empire never had colonies in the western view of the word, also recentely Lugansk and Kharkov miska rada just raised Russian to official level...:)
3. So Kuban Cossack can be just eastern Ukrainians.;This does not matter anything as surnames in the western and in the eastern Ukraine are different However you will agree that most people in Eastern Ukraine are oddly enough -enko and -vicha and -chuk. Whilst in Kuban the dominant names are -ov and -in (and no -enkov twists mind you!)
4. Have you ever seen anyone on Russian TV giving interview on "balachka"? Yes, on Local Krasnodar TV is pretty much anchored in balachka, all nationwide channels use Muscovite dialect for consistency, however their reporters in Krasnodar Krai - always in local dialect. Have you seen BBC airing in Scottish accent?
5. Kuban Cossacks name for itself was easily transformed by Soviet and Russian propaganda from Rusyn / Rus’ki to Russkiy.;So you were MADE Russian.. Now that is just amusing and dowright silly. Well I am as much Russian as Pushkin was, even if I am not 100% ethnic Russian (which I will not deny) as the old saying goes one could only be more Russian if he is Obrussevshiy. Make it like that, but that is a theory. Finally I do not decide for eastern and southern Ukrainians to be "victims" of Ukrainisation, so please leave us Cossacks alone, if that makes you grieve I am sorry. Regardless of the case in Russia you can see so many examples like us that it is really amusing to assume who is who. I believe Gumelyov that it is irrelevant of your background, but who you are in reallity that makes the difference. Imagine this case Belarusian father, Tatar mother, born in Moscow lived his whole life there, never cared about his nationality, his children when asked who they are will answer what quarter this or quarter that...no they will say...RUSSIAN, Russkiye. That is what is important. I am proud to be Russian, and that we are still loyal to the Pereyaslav agreement made by our ancestors 352 years ago, and I thank Matushka for allowing us to settle on this beutiful land 200 years ago, and to keep it forever as part of our massive country. Now that bolno for a svidomy to hear. --Kuban Cossack 01:20, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

O.K. No more attempts to pursuade each other regarding Kuban Cossacks.

(Just last remark. The article you quoted says that Zaporozhians may have never been to Kuban. Do you agree? If not (you say "our ancestors Zaporozhians"), why do you agree with one part of this 'study' and not agree with the other? That's the way propaganda works: take what you like and do not see what you do not like)

No the article says Ukrainians never been to Kuban, which is true, but not Zaporozhians, which questions just how Ukrainian our ancestors were. --Kuban Cossack 14:32, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

That's not true: "фамилий потомков запорожских казаков, выселенных сюда Екатериной II"KKonstantin 14:50, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, and everybody in our stanitsa can trace some of their roots to Zaporozhians. Bottom line Zaporozhians were only part of the people that over a 200 year period came to the Kuban. We modern Cossacks have only iherited their spirit and will, blood is irrelevant. As a matter of fact the Kuban has one of the highest rates of orphanage adoptions in Russia. Those people can be genetically anything, but what matters is the traditions in which they are rased. --Kuban Cossack 17:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Let's go back to the topic “Russian Cossacks”. "What about the first three paragraphs of the “Russian Cossacks” where it is said not about the dwellers of the Russian Empire. “Russian” should be deleted there. Do you agree?" You did not answer.KKonstantin 14:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

No, because the word Russian, as explained above, is an umbrella, and for 19th century Imperial Cossack hosts - were Russian. So I do not understand why we should delete the term. --Kuban Cossack 14:32, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

But in the three first paragraphs of "Russian Cossacks" it is said about year 1444 and then "In the sixteenth century". So there was no Russian Empire or it did not include the lands of Cossacks in 1444 or in the sixteenth century or earlier. Therefore the word "Russian" must be deleted from the first three paragraphs of "Russian Cossacks".KKonstantin 14:50, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

True, but does that really matter, after all the umbrella word Russian can be used to reffer to either ethnically Ruthenian or nationaly. To be fair I am not too concerned. Maybe just leave it as Cossacks? --Kuban Cossack 17:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

O.K., just 'Cossacks' is fine for me.KKonstantin 15:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, feel free to change it then. --Kuban Cossack 15:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Metro

Other topics: If you are in Kiev or in an any ex-Soviet city. Can I ask you to take some pictures for wikipedia of the Metro. (I am little Metro - crazy User:Kuban kazak/Metro

I am in Kiev. What exactly you need? However I do not promise to help as I have not got a digital camera so it's not easy to take pictures and scan it (my scanner is far away from me as I am in the process of moving from one place to the other).KKonstantin 14:50, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, a live saver, pretty much photos of all the stations. Pehaps you might be interested in Kiev Metro an article I make myself very proud of. I need to have photographs to continue writing articles about the stations (it's really pointless otherwise). I mean no need to rush off straight away, but that is GREAT news you just told me. Пасибо. --Kuban Cossack 18:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

At the moment I can send you some pictures of Beresteyska and Akademmistechko I just took by my phone camera. Give me your e-mail or specify how to send. This is all I can send at the moment. Or you need high resolution photos? If so, we plan to buy a digital camera, but I am not sure when: maybe in a month or two. My scanner will be away (in the garage) from me around 3 months as we are going to make a renovation of the apartment we will move while living at my wife's sister apartment.

Commons:Category:Kiev Metro. Click upload file, make a file name Make sure you select necessary license (otherwise прощай to photographs). Then click upload (make sure you name something sensible, but that can be changed). High res-well will see how those are, phone cameras are getting better day by day. (Of course I would prefer them to be high res). --Kuban Cossack 15:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not know how to get the photo to exactly Kiev Metro. How to do it?

Amateur (Любительская) photography is fully allowed in Kiev. Professional you have to pay, but then you get access to better places. For sake of wiki, your phone cam is great enough. Thanks a lot for that. --Kuban Cossack 16:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

See one of my photo samples at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Akademmistechko1.jpgKKonstantin 15:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes that is good enough quality. but make sure you license your work (I put PD-self on the image). Otherwise it will be deleted. Thanks a lot. --Kuban Cossack 16:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

You wrote English and Russian versions of the article?

You mean the one on ru-wiki? No way. I want to finish this one first and then go there. As for the rest yeah on main article about 75% is mine. Lines and station articles are 100%.--Kuban Cossack 15:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Currently I really hate Kiev Metro as I need to use it very often:( Maybe it will change soon as I have purhcased a car. So when I won't use Metro too often, I will like it again.KKonstantin 14:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I love metro, maybe because I am a rural person. So sad to hear that. Maybe you should look at it from a different perspective [1], [2] --Kuban Cossack 15:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not liking living in a city. I woul rather live in some rural area. but it is not easy to get some job out of Kiev.KKonstantin 15:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Well I spend my student years in Piter, I loved it there, but then I was a student then, that had different life priorities. Anyway remember this is something you are volunteering to do, don't make it a priority of yours. Also pehaps you'd like this Bridges of Kiev and my little project which I am developing User:Kuban kazak/Hotel Ukrayina --Kuban Cossack 16:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I downloaded the photoes of the stations I have been last two days:

• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Akademmistechko.jpg
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Akademmistechko2.jpg
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Akademmistechko3.jpg

• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Beresteyska.jpg
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Beresteyska1.jpg
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Beresteyska2.jpg
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Beresteyska3.jpg

• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Palats_Sportu.jpg
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Palats_Sportu1.jpg
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Palats_Sportu2.jpg

• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Ploshcha_Lva_Tolstoho.jpg
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Ploshcha_Lva_Tolstoho1.jpg
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Ploshcha_Lva_Tolstoho2.jpg

• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Zhytomyrska.jpg
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Zhytomyrska1.jpg
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Zhytomyrska2.jpg
• http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Zhytomyrska3.jpg

Now for that I do in all honestely sincerely thank you. --Kuban Cossack 15:58, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Some basic feedback.1) Make shots dynamic and full (like the first three shots of Zhitomirskaya - proffesional and excellent.2) Shoot Metro not people (very difficult and particulary hard to do, particulary on a transfer station, but possible nonetheless - try offpeak hours). 3) Hold the camera VERY steady (again I know how difficult that is) 3) I know you are not a professional photographer, and neither am I but do have a look at the rakurs of the shots in the links I gave you to give you idea. 4) Remember that this is your metro (like it or hate it) and it is going into an international wikipedia that is going to be viewed by potentially millions of people.

Но на первый раз, отлично. В воскресения будут готовы статьи о станциях котрые нащелкал. (What is your daily route?) --Kuban Cossack 16:11, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

They are not all so good (especially the color in some of them). So now I think more about digital camera, but I am not yet sure when I will buy it (my wife wishes that more than me). My daily is route is not constant now as I have not strict office hours, but flowing. And also due to the fact that we now moved to another location, but sometimes go back to the place we lived. Again going to bank which gave us a credit. And finally I just bought a car, so I needed to have some drive lessons. So there were many things to do last weeks. I work between Beresteyska and Lukyanivska. We lived near Minska. Now we temporarily live near Akadmmistechko, but I first tried to take shots of those stations that I seldom come.KKonstantin 16:19, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Well a digital camera is a nice investemnent, but chose carefully when buying. Anyway here is more different question. How is the hydroisolation on Lukyanovskaya? Is it still the same sorry sight? --Kuban Cossack 16:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure about that: hydroisolation on what part of the station?

Take a look of some other pictures I took before your question.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Lukyanivska4.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Lukyanivska5.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Lukyanivska6.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Lukyanivska7.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Lukyanivska8.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Lukyanivska9.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Lukyanivska9-1.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Lukyanivska9-3.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Lukyanivska9-4.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Palats_Sportu4.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Palats_Sportu5.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Palats_Sportu6.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Palats_Sportu7.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Ploshcha_Lva_Tolstoho4.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Ploshcha_Lva_Tolstoho5.jpg

Regarding the quality. First of all it is not possible to have a decent quality with the phone camera (the color is not good on many of the pictures and I can't do anything about it), at least the one I have. As for the people. People are always on our way:) I just do not have time for waiting.KKonstantin 20:00, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Privet

Hey, are you still operational? Any chance for a few more photos of different stations? How are you? --Kuban Cossack 13:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

What is PriveNt? Is it in Balachka? By the way how do you say 'Kuban Cossacks' in Balachka: 'Kubanskiye Kazaki' or 'Kubanski Kozaky'?

What Station do you need photo of? And what will I get for it? (not money, but some pro-Ukr. stance on wiki:)KKonstantin (talk) 14:53, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Nice to see you back online, I am operational, but very much stalled right now too much work on my hands. We say Kubanskii kazaki (with udareniye on the i in both words). As for stand, I am always pro-Ukr, but anti-Ukrnationalist. I could use pictures of all the stations if possible. Especially those which have no articles on yet. --Kuban Cossack 12:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I mean what Station do you need NEW photo of? I can take a picture, but I do not promise it fast. Just say in advance what Station, and I will remember it when there.

I saw in Balachka article that it is also a language of Don Cossacks. But in www.ethnology.ru/doc/narod/t1/gif/nrd-t1_0151z.gif Don Cossackdom is marked as purely Russian languague whereas Kuban Cossackdom is Ukr-Rus mix. Do all the Don Cossacks really call their language Balachka or only some part of them?

Finally do you know any word in Balachka of Circassian origin? and what it means (translation)? If possible, say several words - it's interesting to me.KKonstantin (talk) 10:47, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Like I said all of them. Try to get some detail on the decorations and vestibules.

Also Balachka is not a language but a dialect, and sometimes differences can not be only pinpointed to certain regions such as Don Kuban or Terek, but even to individual stanitsas and khutors. All the questions you asked will be answered on the talk page if you take time to read the discussion threads. Also have a read of this excellent source http://www.geocities.com/terek_kaz/pesni/peskub.htm ...

Cherkess: Lezginka, Cherkesska (incidentaly ever wondered where the names of cities such as Cherkassy and Novocherkask originated? Need I tell you that the name Cossack originates from ancient circassia?) Burka. Exclamation such as асса most common. Like I said I am from Varenikovskaya, which is the primary zone of the Chernomortsy zone, but if you go south to where the line cossacks live, or to those in Abkhazia (during the hunger of '33 several thousand Cossacks moved to Abkhazia, where they intermixed with the Abkhaz retaining their Cossack status, but entering the Abkhaz clans, thus simultaneously becoming a link between the two peoples... Any surpise that it was a Kuban Cossack unit which first burst into Sukhumi in '93?). So when they balak, it will be in a very much different from what you expect. The old saying is that поцарапай Русского -> Татарин, well поцарапай Кубанца -> Черкес. --Kuban Cossack 14:43, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Maps

I removed most of the maps you added to articles, because remember external links are not meant to carry a Undue weight and b) be there to make a point. I appreciate your interest in the subject but I also ask that you review WP:SOURCE and WP:NOR i.e. all statements in article space, and arguments in talk page that you want to be convincing must be sourced and refrenced. My text is, yours is not. --Kuban Cossack 20:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree to delete the following maps:

Map of territories inhabited by Ukrainian speakers before 1939 (however this link was added NOT by me to some article and I only copied it)

Peoples of Central & Eastern Europe between World Wars

Territory demanded as ethnic Ukrainian by 'Ukrainian Republic' at Paris Peace Conference of 1919

Demographic Status of Ukrainian lands in the Late Nineteenth and Early Twentieth CenturiesKKonstantin (talk) 10:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

On your side, please do not delete other links. This Dirk resembles you very much: is it your different IP?KKonstantin (talk) 10:51, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Also I agree to delete Dialect map of Russian languageKKonstantin (talk) 11:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

external links additions

May I ask you to review our Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines, especially 'What wikipedia is not', repository section, our external links guideline, and probably some others. You are constantly adding numerous external links to the external links section of Ukrainian language and some other pages, which can be regarded spamming. Please discuss link-additions on talkpages first, and consider adding content in stead of external links only. Thanks. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 10:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not add any spam which is demostrated by the facts that they are to non-commercial sites (.edu domain, etc.), to sites in different countries and to maps only. These External Link absolutely relate to the topic of the article: I add ONLY links to maps where Ukrainian ethnographic borders are seen. I add them ONLY to articles where Ukrainian is relevant: Ukrainians, Ukrainian language, Ukrainians in Kuban, etc. NO OTHER.

Kuban Kozak likes to delete them as they do not agree with Russian imperialistic bias KKonstantin (talk) 10:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec)I did not say that you were adding spam links, but that the way you are recently adding them can be considered spamming. Spam does not say anything about what gets linked to, it says about the way of adding: adding links where they may not be wanted. Remember, we are writing an encyclopedia here, NOT a linkfarm. Please reconsider your edits, I have cleaned three articles which contained huge linkfarms after your edits. Moreover, some of the links you are adding are questionable, e.g. adding links to imageshack. If the links are to reliable sources, consider using them as references. Thanks. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 10:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

(reply to second part of post)Deleted, just as I did. Another thing, if people disagree it is better to discuss on talkpages first, and achieve consensus there. Please do not readd the link before that consensus is reached. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 10:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Did you see that Galassi and Ostap R are against your removes? So we are three, and you are two (or one - if you are Kuban Kozak under different IP). So you are not interested in consensus as I see. Don't tell me about consensus please. I offered to Kuban Kozak above to delete 4 of my links. What is you contribution to consensus?KKonstantin (talk) 10:54, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

My contribution: WP:NOT#REPOSITORY, agreed upon by many editors, as are WP:EL. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 10:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I have reviewed the edits you mentioned. They did leave a message on a talkpage, which was not responded to. I have replied, and reminded one user there of assuming good faith. The same goes for you, seen one of your posts in the above section on this talkpage. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 11:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no problem with my good faith. The post to Kuban Kozak was a joke due to the fact that Russian users are in majority to Ukrainian internet user. Furthermore Russian security is also very much active in defending Russian view in the Internet including Wiki. So it is hard to make an unbiased information taking into account the above. The good exmaple is Ukrainian Insurgency Army article (I do not remember which language of Wiki was it)KKonstantin (talk) 11:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I know these articles are sometimes difficult in terms of unbiased editing. That is why I suggested in my first post that it is now better to discuss on talkpages first (especially since there are now at least two different people who have objections against the external links). I stil think that either the links are better used as references, or that suitable images are uploaded onto the server and used in the text to discuss. Furthermore, try to keep the external links sections small (as there are probably many, many images to link to, and large external links sections tend to invite more links, see Wikipedia:Spam Event Horizon). If this is really controversial, then there is also reason to write about it, not just link without explanation. Hope this helps, happy editing! --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 11:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Please consider this a warning, please obtain consensus on talkpages first, further disruptive edits may result in a block. Thanks. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 13:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

If I add some of the discussed links to References, why is it better: because it cannot be used for spam purposes? why? Images can be downloaded only through wikisourse, right? It takes too much timeKKonstantin (talk) 15:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

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