Krɪt̮ɪkl feɪjəɹ

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September 2023

Hello, I'm LR0725. I wanted to let you know that I removed one or more external links you added to Post-irony because they seemed inappropriate for an encyclopedia. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page or take a look at our guidelines about links. Thank you. LR0725 [ Talk | Contribs ] 00:27, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Henry Darger

Hi Krɪt̮ɪkl feɪjəɹ,

I just wanted to let you know that I undid your recent edit to Henry Darger, but I wanted to reach out because I was a bit confused by your edit summary. Could you ellaborate on how listing outsider art as an art movement isn't helpful? It's commonly listed as an art movement in the {{Infobox artist}} template.

--u9000 (talk) 00:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I made this edit in a way that started from the leaves of the problem instead of the root.

My three issues with Wikipedia’s usage of outsider art

1. Not a movement. (Probably the most relevant)
2. It’s sort of a marketing term
3. It’s othering.

I don’t know if you know what Outsider Art is. Outsider art is art made by artists who are outside of the central art world. The category is mostly made up of disabled, uneducated, and child artists. Wikipedia often says it is an Art movement. But by definition it is not an Art movement. An art movement is according to Wikipedia “An art movement is a tendency or style in art with a specific art philosophy or goal, followed by a group of artists during a specific period of time, (usually a few months, years or decades) or, at least, with the heyday of the movement defined within a number of years.”

Outsider art refers to the phenomenon of artists existing outside of the mainstream, not to any specific stylistic trend. It is therefore not a movement. If the idea of an art movement is all about philosophy and style. Even if an outsider artist is a part of an art movement this movement would not be Outsider Art. Outsider artists are not only separate from society but also one another, how could they influence one another.

One may argue that “outsider art is technically not a movement. But it is helpful to put it in the same ballpark as a movement. Because when someone looks for say surrealist artists they are looking for artists who are talked about by scholars in the same breath of air. And likewise the adjective Outsider is considered a term of great interest, much like how movements are of great interesting ”

I think is this argument is bad for two reasons.

1. Wikipedia is not supposed to help people sort out the type of artists or type of things they want to see. If this was the case then it would not have it’s reputation for being bloated. Wikipedia is supposed to be factual, not streamlined and oversimplified.
2. The label Outsider Art has been criticized for being a marketing term to differentiate disabled artists from non-disabled artists. A talented mentally disabled artist, who is outside of mainstream art is seen as authentic, pure, and necessarily an idiot savant. Shouldn’t all Art be judged on the same grounds? Calling someone principally an artistic outsider is exoticising and strange. No Outsider artist has ever called themself Outsider. Not that I don't think Henry Darger is an Outsider, but I changed the page because using the term the same way people use movement is only useful for leading readers to a very particular biased view on his work. Incorrectly Stuffing outsider art in the box of “movement” isn’t helpful, it's a form of exoticism. I would prefer that the term outsider art be avoided although together but this isn’t possible since its such a common term. The least Wikipedia could do is avoid pretending Outsider Art is a movement.

Outsider art is an idea many art dealers to make their products more attractive. Wikipedia doesn’t shouldn’t unwittingly be advertising Henry Darger’s work, which he likely didn’t care for anyone else but himself to see. Shortly before he died, he told his landlord to dispose of his works, but his landlord instead chose to claim copyright of the works and make lots of money from them.

I think that Wikipedia labeling Outsider Art as a movement is misleading. I was rereading one of Darger’s Wikipedia’s thinking about going and trying to track down my pdf of his novel again, when I saw that the Wikipedia page called Outsider Art a movement. This is of course very silly. It’s like calling a pornstar a “MILF” right on their Wikipedia page (this is an exaggerated comparison).

I need to change more pages to say this or make some discussion about this on Wikipedia. Maybe changing one Article on a whim is not the best way to go about things, even if they are justified edits. Krɪt̮ɪkl feɪjəɹ (talk) 03:49, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I think a leaf-down approach is definately not the way to go. I'd reccommend starting a topic on Category talk:Outsider artists and notices on relevant wikiprojects pointing to it.

I have some disagreements with your points, but per WP:LOCALCONCENSUS I'll wait for the category talk discussion. Please {{Ping}} me when you make it

Thank you, u9000 (they/them • talk) 04:08, 16 July 2024 (UTC)