User talk:Kudpung/Archive Mar 2020

Wikimania 2020 in BANGKOK
has been postponed until 2021 which will mark 20 years of Wikipedia and 21 years of me living in this country. Health permitting, and if I am still around, I hope to see many of you here. If you want any genuine, accurate advance information of any kind, just email me!

Arbcom

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kudpung closed An arbitration case regarding Kudpung has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted: For his failure to meet the conduct standards expected of an administrator, Kudpung's administrative user rights are removed. He may regain them at any time via a successful request for adminship. Kudpung is admonished for failing to meet the conduct standards expected of an administrator. In future, he is urged to ensure that he remains civil in his interactions with both new and regular editors, and responds to feedback on his conduct objectively and with an assumption of good faith. Arbitration is supposed to be the final step in the dispute resolution process. The community is reminded that attempting to have a community-wide discussion of problematic behavior early on can prevent unnecessary escalations. For the Arbitration Committee, Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 22:51, 29 February 2020 (UTC) Regretfully it came to this Kudpung, your sysop flag was removed following a request by ArbCom at WP:BN. You may seek restoration via WP:RFA at any time. Best regards, — xaosflux Talk 00:29, 1 March 2020 (UTC) Regretful, Xaosflux? I heard the rounds of applause and the popping of champagne corks in the Arbcom office from here ;) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:52, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Kudpung on the ArbCom decision

Please note that the following is a personal statement, made solely to explain my thoughts in response to the ArbCom decision. It is not in any way an attempt to re-debate any of the issues raised though I am well aware it will be discussed in both positive and negative tones both on and off Wiki. Well, there isn't really going to be much of a statement, but as an editor to join the club of what may be some of the English Wikipedia's most prominent users to be desysopped in quick succession for reasons other than breaches of T&U and serious abuse of tools or trust, there are a couple of things that need to be said.

As expressed by a very large number of users, BrownHairedGirl's desysoping was a catastrophic misjudgment by the Arbitration Committee. I will not characterize on the Committee's final decision in my case - which I am forced to accept anyway - but the way they reached it was flawed. There are so many parallels to this statement that I do not have the energy to pick them out and list all the total errors in the so called FoF, or to analyse the spite, vengeance, personal attacks and disingenuous comments voiced by both involved and totally uninvolved users; those are the elements, far more than the outcome, that make the case hard to swallow and why I have campaigned for years to keep non-involved editors away from ANI and Arbcom cases and to clean up RfA.

I quite clearly made my commitment to the Arbcom case in the 1,000 or so words at Statement by Kudpung and with equal clarity misguidedly put my faith in the Committee - any later claims that I had not taken part and which were used by the drafters in their FoF, and which 'lack respect for the Committee' are either deliberate or unintentional untruths. But I take being removed of my tools for using my Miranda rights after the first indictment as almost an unintended compliment.

From this, 9 years ago to the day (a 100+ support was quite a big thing in those days) and this piece of incredible irony, to the news I woke up to this Sunday morning is a very big loss of altitude and demonstrates that the Committee will not only pass judgement, but will deliberately make harsh examples of those who have done a lot for the project and made a name for themselves for the good things, and will fall hardest.

The comments here: [1], [2] , [3] reiterate the comments following the BHG desysoping.

It's a shame that so many people, including those in elected office - even the Arbitration Committee - treat, or have treated, such a serious project as Wikipedia as a place to anonymously vent their real-live frustrations and inadequacies and play power games in Wikipedia, making it not much better than a MMORPG, or in the case of some, use it for financial gain with impunity, or as a platform for some socio-political movements. The page analysis shows a remarkable imbalance between involved and non involved participants and possibly even also reveals who has an axe to grind.

The remedy cited "conduct" concerns, not "trust" concerns, and the only tools I will miss are those concerned with the trust for viewing of deleted material for COI, UPE, SPI, and blocking blatant vandalism (I never worked at AIV) and especially spam, areas in which I have at times been very active and in which the hundreds of hours are not reflected in an edit count even a high as 100K. I can easily live with that as can other editors who for various reasons have voluntarily handed in their tools such as Boing! said Zebedee to mention just one.

I would like to thank Lourdes most sincerely who was the only person who had the courage to speak in my defence - which illustrates what ominous powers and influence the Committee exerts - and I hope that having done so will not reflect badly on her. My thanks also to GRuban whose short but hugely important observation went totally unheeded by the drafting and voting arbitrators. My greatest respect goes out to Buffs who in the face of a lot of thoroughly unwarranted criticism has valiantly, but unsuccessfully attempted to preserve the integrity of the Committee and its process. I hope he will continue to do so on future dubious cases and without the barracking from the sidelines.

To anyone who has, or claims to suffer from PTSD as an explanation for their curious mode of collaboration, they really have my sympathy, but perhaps they will take a moment to reflect how stressful a) going through RfA in the first place is, and b) being subject to an almost 2 month long online virtual-reality Arbcom case can be, particularly one that is a show trial and kangaroo court which accords less dignity to the the accused than a court of criminal law in a civilised democratic country. Try to imagine getting over the last ten minutes in a passenger plane that's definitely going to crash. I have. It's a lot worse than simply being fired for breaking the company's rules.

Finally, I will mention this quote from another admin which has been on my user page for a very long time: A personal attack is something that is personal. It has to target somebody specific, and it has to target their identity. Jehochman[4]. It's hardly surprising that by now I certainly have a much reduced respect for an Arbitration Committee that relies entirely on prima facie evidence and does not properly examine the evidence (despite whatever might be claimed), and where many of whom are absent at any one time or recusing themselves for various reasons best known to themselves.

It's also not astonishing that having been instrumental in successfully bringing about some of the most important changes on Wikipedia, having spent lots of money and time attending Wikimanias and meet ups, and my thorough disillusionment with the way the WMF 'manages' its projects, that while I am proud to have been part of it, I have no desire at my age to continue in these backroom charades which ironically, are behind what is still one of the most visited websites ever and the best source of traditional encyclopedic knowledge in the world. (So that concludes yet another pompous speech by Kudpung) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:49, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate the gratitude, but I think you may have misread my intent. I'm not saying that your actions were correct or that criticism wasn't warranted. I AM saying that the manner in which evidence was presented was unfair, highly biased, and (to be blunt) inappropriate. Reasonable people can look at the full context and may/may not come to the same conclusion; reasonable people can disagree. Obviously some from ArbCom agreed with me. Others did not. I wish you the best of luck in the future and I think a more conciliatory attitude would be more helpful as an admin.

As for ArbCom, I do not agree with your conclusions. "I'm offended" was WAY overused as a rationale. Likewise, I feel that WP:AN-venues were not utilized as much as necessary to even hear the case. While I disagree with your ultimate conclusion, I tip my hat to you and the difficult job you have. I challenge you to look a little deeper into context and not just what is presented. Buffs (talk) 19:24, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

It's all water under the bridge and I don't think I misread your intent, Buffs. I'm retiring and apart from a few odds and ends, and going to Wikimania on my doorstep this year to bid farewell to friends and encourage others, I won't be around much more. and whatever the conjecture, it's not entirely due to Arbcom or its participants. I do however feel quite refreshed without the adminship Sword of Damocles hanging over my head. As I said above, I'm not seeking to re-debate the outcome of the case, but I am deeply concerned about the way they reached it, and additionally they and their clerks openly permitted the near blockworthy hostility, incivility, and personal attacks by those commenting, many of whom don't actually have an axe to grind, and from those who think they have. I never knew that Arbcom cases could be such dirty affairs. I believe the Committee's composition, its electoral process, and its way of working, are what should be challenged and that they should look a little deeper into context and not just what is presented, especially when they took almost two months to reach a conclusion. Whatever anyone thinks of me, it's up to them, but for people like BrownHairedGirl the stigma of being desysoped and the way it was done is definitely something that should never happen again. It's time to take a long, deep look at the way Arbcom functions - and ANI which has been the subject of research - but it won't be in my lifetime. I look back and see the positive side of what I have contributed no Wikipedia, but I'm done with it now. I've cancelled this year's itinary of talks and editathons lined up for schools and colleges in Isan - it wouldn't be right for someone branded as a Wikicriminal like me to be organising and hosting such events! Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:31, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

(Semi) Retirement

I'm sorry too, Kudpung. I really enjoy working with you. --valereee (talk) 23:08, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm very sad to see this as well. I hope you'll still be involved. Many of us still appreciate all the work you've done for this project. I've also removed the LTA who was just trolling you. Ignore him, he has no life. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:59, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I never saw any problems in your conduct, Kudpung, but I'm that guy, too. I'm pondering cursing out the arbs that voted for this ridiculous slap in the face. This website is going downhill fast and you may as well bail now, as things won't get any better in the near term. Chris Troutman (talk) 00:31, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

• There seems to be little room here for old men with common sense and a singular goal of creating an accurate, relevant, and readable encyclopedia. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:38, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

• I'll chime in here, as I somewhat feel I belong in the old men group too...so thank you for your hard and dedicated work. Lectonar (talk) 09:23, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Dennis, No good deed goes unpunished. this was another example of your extraordinary wisdom, even if you, I, and others find ourselves on different sides of the fence - Without having had anything to do with him, I was a target for his PA and harassment for years and as an admin totally disallowed from doing anything about it. Ironically, when I did unwittingly call his sock a disruptive troll, it was used against me as a FoF by a short-sighted Arbcom. Whoever was right and whoever was wrong, Yngvadottir's bitstripping was an earlier example of total incompetency of what is supposed to be an Arbcom. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:26, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

• Sorry to see this happen. Puddleglum^2.0 03:17, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
• It actually should be Retirement but as I use Wikipedia daily for other reasons, I'm likely to edit the occasional typo I see, or add a source somewhere, or remove some blatant promo. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:53, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
• Despite some weird, snide, and irrelevant comment on the Arbcom case, health permitting I will be at Wikimania 2020 in Bangkok for all the days (pre and post) of the conference. Looking forward to meeting old friends who can make it there, and some new ones I haven't met face-to-face yet, and my enemies? Well don't let that put you off from coming - you will find that my 'bark is definitely worse than my bite' (if the non BE speakers among you can understand the expression). Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:42, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

JarrahTree I look forward to it. BKK is not to far from Perth. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:23, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

• My condolences, and thank you for staying to give as much as you feel able to give. --GRuban (talk) 13:46, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
• ❤️ 15:09, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
• Thank you for your work here. I still hope that I will see and hear from you on Wikipedia though! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 03:00, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
• You've done something invaluable by nominating so many candidates for adminship, and by voting thoughtfully at that venue consistently. Just some appreciation. Airbornemihir (talk) 05:15, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
• Just.. arrrrrgghhh! All the best: Rich Farmbrough (the apparently calm and reasonable) 19:32, 2 March 2020 (UTC).
  
• Wishing you all the best mate. Spend some quality time with those grandkids! — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)}_{(click me!)} 20:11, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
• I'm also sorry to see you go. All the best! – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 18:11, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
• Hope you come back soon as you will be greatly missed at New Page Patrol, couldn't have disagreed more with the decision of Arbcom, regards Atlantic306 (talk) 21:19, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words, Atlantic306, but after nearly a decade trying to get NPP where it is today, I actually relinquished my hold on it nearly two years ago already to a competent coordinator team which includes, among others, ICPH and Barkeep49. Ironically, an innocent comment I made at WT:NPP is 50% of what got me hung, drawn, quartered, pitchforked, tarred and feathered at Arbcom! Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:39, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks for everything you've done as a Wikipedia user and administrator. Best wishes, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:26, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
• Thank you for everything. ^Thanks,L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 14:47, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
• We only conversed briefly, but I was aware of the great work and legacy you had on Wikipedia. I felt the outcome of the case was harsh, and discarded a decade of work over your use of language/approach (which you mainly withdrew). There were better ways to handle this that would have been fairer to all. I could not see the logic in it, and how it would be a net benefit Wikipedia. Britishfinance (talk) 14:59, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
• Sad to see this, thank you for your work and contributions here, they are greatly appreciated, Take care and I wish you all the best. –Davey2010^Talk 10:27, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
• I am sorry to see this. You will always have my respect. I also hope, in this case, "semi retired" would mean/be equivalent of "very busy". See you around old friend. —usernamekiran (talk) 11:03, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Precious

schools

Thank you for service over 14 years, for quality articles about schools and places, such as Malvern College, Wellingborough and Milford Haven, for project Worcestershire, for help with German, including Myth of the clean Wehrmacht, for "I am not an ungeheures Ungeziefer", - piano-player living in Thailand, repeating (6 August 2010): you are an awesome Wikipedian!

You are recipient no. 2351 of Precious, a prize of QAI aka the cabal of the outcast. My response to an arbcom case was singing in defiance. I hope that you'll find a way that we don't have to miss you. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:58, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Danke Gerda. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:17, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Admin's Barnstar
	Disagreed with you many times at many AFD's, that said you were always a net positive to those discussions both in your personal and administrative approach. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 01:32, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Hell in a Bucket. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:34, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Flowers for you

	Flowers for you
	It saddens me to see you lose your admin rights in such a fashion. I somehow missed seeing the Arbcom case until it was almost over. I hope to still see you around the encyclopedia from time to time. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 19:54, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, ONUnicorn. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:32, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

All the best

There were many things I could have said in this situation.

I didn't. Because none of them actually matter.

Be well, take care, and remember that wikipedia doesn't actually matter. At all.

-- Begoon 11:17, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Kudpung, you banned me from your talk page but I am afraid I am going to violate that just this one time, and I quite understand if you or a friend removes this post. I'm sorry to see you lose your bit, because I know that despite our many differences you have always had the interests of the encyclopaedia at heart, and you have worked long and hard for it. I hope to see you around again, and stay safe. Yngvadottir (talk) 15:34, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Yngvadottir I won't be back. I lost my tools based on prima facie evidence and an Arbcom who were exited at the thought of desysoping yet another dedicated, long-term hard worker who has done more than most to get new policies and systems rolled out. At over 70 it's not losing the tools that matters - that doesn't bother me in the slightest, but it's the vile emphasis they made, and allowed to be made, on the deliberate character assasination, and pretending it needed two long drawn out months to reach a decision. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:16, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Yngvadottir I don't actually recall telling you to stay off my talk page, but you mentioning it has caused me to do some research - admittedly reluctantly, because the only memories I have of Wikipedia already, are what a nasty cesspit it can become, despite the good intentions one may have. I think it goes back to this interesting thread started by Britishfinance, and in which Xeno, Isaacl, Iridescent, Atsme, and Nosebagbear participated. There then followed this thread in which it seems that you had not fully understood what it was all about, and I asked you, also politely, not to continue the issue. I did not in any way express banning you from my talk page, indeed , for someone with your intellect I was rather taken aback by your interpretation of the situation. However, such misunderstandings and ones like them, especially issues disingenuously taken out of context like they constantly were on my Arbcom case, are what serve to encourage Arbcom to take them at face value and and desysop useful editors because they can. I would hope that some members of the new arbcom are literally cringing in retrospect at some of the decisions they have made - while others of course, are probably rubbing their hands in glee at the outcomes. . Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:12, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Seeing as I've been pinged… I never engage in "please come back"; whether or not someone increases, reduces, or abandons altogether their activity is the one decision that should be entirely down to the editor in question since "would I rather be doing something else with my time?" is a complex calculus of how upset/happy various Wikipedia interactions make you feel and of what other things you could be doing with your time, all of which are entirely subjective to the editor in question. What I would say—speaking as a member of the highly exclusive club (I believe only four members) of people who've been formally expelled from Arbcom—is not to feel you're somehow tainted by having been stripped of a permission, no matter what the circumstances were.

The Wikipedia hivemind may have many faults, but one trait whicb is genuinely admirable is the fact that it tends to judge editors on what they do, not on what their past history was (which is in large part why any admin trying variations on "given the length of your past block log I'm giving you a harsher punishment than I normally would despite the fact that you haven't done anything else problematic for a long time" tends to become unstuck). Unless you're someone like Essjay who lost the bit owing to major abuse with serious potential consequences, within a couple of weeks nobody is looking at you as "that editor who got stripped of permissions" (as Yngvadottir can testify, having been herself the subject of a rarer-than-hen's-teeth WP:LEVEL2 lèse-majesté desysop which managed to unite pretty much everyone, regardless of their stance on the underlying issue, in disgust at its ineptitude). Even Fram—probably the highest-profile desysop of them all—hasn't suffered any lasting damage to his reputation or to his ability to edit Wikipedia; the admin toolset really isn't that important. ‑ Iridescent 09:32, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

As customary, Iridescent made some good points; however, I am one of "those" please come back editors, especially when I believe a remedy was overkill in a situation that could have been handled without such drastic measures. It makes me sad to see an editor/admin who has devoted 20 years of his life to WP and has done so much for the project to end-up semi-retired in this manner. The WMF should be sending you a large heaping of THANKS and a Rolex President for all you've done. Well, you certainly have my sincerest thanks and gratitude. Wishing you only the best, Kudz!! Hopefully next year I'll be able to raise a glass of brewski in your honor provided I'm still around and can make it to Bangkok. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 14:32, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Count me among those who will miss your presence here. I'm glad we had a chance to collaborate at the revival of The Signpost. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:35, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Sorry to see you go. Thanks for the good times. All the best. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 02:14, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Bailing out

@Kudpung: Your not bailing out, are you? scope_creep^Talk 14:45, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Bailing out

@Kudpung: I think you should come back in another role for yourself. I really think you should drink your milk, get back on your horse, and come back and create another 100k edits. scope_creep^Talk 19:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC)