User talk:Louis P. Boog/sandbox/Jinn sandbox 4-20-2024

Ready for RfC?

@Louis P. Boog discussions at WP:RSN and WP:NORN notice boards are done. After taking those into account whether you have updated your intended highlighted changes in this sandbox and whether those are ready for taking to RfC? If so form and discuss neutral questions for the same. Bookku (talk) 10:17, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

@ Bookku . Do you see anything that I might logically add to this sandbox that I might have missed? Otherwise I'm ready. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 22:12, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

@Louis P. Boog

• 1) Please help yourself in updating Publisher and Author brief as I did in First subsection below.
• 2) As per feed back at WP:RSN (archive link) use Intercultural Press as publisher name (they being first publisher and RS instead of 'Hachette Livre' both at your sand box and also below RfC preparation.
• 3) Check for accuracy of following thoroughly and update as necessary.
• 4) Search and update any more Academic sources, if possible once again.
• 5) @TheEagle107 do you have any more academic ref or additional text additions suggestions? or following is enough for you? Bookku (talk) 11:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

@Louis P. Boog What I request you, is to fill in the blanks Publisher: and Author: for Ref2: and Ref3: ; below at User Proposed additions of text 2 regarding references for ".. preachers Abul A'la Maududi, and Fethullah Gülen .." Thanks Bookku (talk) 07:24, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

@talk Ref2: and Ref3? Do not see. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 21:54, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

@Louis P. Boog

Proposed additions of text 2 → (First collapse is present sentence) → See second collapse is (Ref-list and Author brief for Proposed additions of text 2) → Ref1 Tobias Nünlist, is for Fakhr al-Din al-Razi → Ref2 and Ref 3 for Abul A'la Maududi, and Fethullah Gülen publisher and author details are kept empty, You know it better how to mention and which reference for Abul A'la Maududi, and Fethullah Gülen.

@talk I sorry I am still unclear. Do you want me to delete the author and publisher details? I don't see anything wrong with them as they are. --15:10, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

No no don't delete. As of now following format has not mentioned any supportive references for 'Abul A'la Maududi, and Fethullah Gülen'.

WP:NORN link is mentioned but it's too long to read for first time visiting RfC participating users. Mention of supportive refs or books for 'Abul A'la Maududi, and Fethullah Gülen' will be helpful, I suppose. Bookku (talk) 16:16, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Let me know if you are not able to see collapse templates. Bookku (talk) 01:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

I suppose you would have taken note at Talk:Jinn#Next step fyi: Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment#Pl. suggest format for RfC, in case you missed the link Bookku (talk) 16:05, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Has this been taken note of?

@Louis P. Boog I was revisiting Talk:Jinn discussions up til now.

Can you crosscheck if you have taken note of VFF's 25th April's this reply and if you find any thing to take into consideration. Bookku (talk) 09:11, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@Bookku wrote a reply to his comments Louis P. Boog (talk) 02:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Primary preparation of RfC question

• Proposed additions of all text as presently shown @ User:Louis P. Boog/sandbox/Jinn sandbox 4-20-2024:

RfC: Proposed additions of text 1

• In section "Islam":
  • RfC Question: Should the following sentence be added to "Islam" section in the article?

Jinn have been called "an integral part" of the Muslim tradition or faith, "completely accepted" in official Islam; prominently featured in folklore, but also taken "quite seriously" by both medieval and modern Muslim scholars, who "worked out" the consequences implied by their existence -- legal status, the possible relations between them and mankind, especially in questions of marriage and property.

Ref-list and Author brief for Proposed additions of text 1

Reflist for Proposed additions of text 1 References Author brief for Proposed additions of text 1 Ref 1 Published by: Bloomsbury Publishing USA Author brief: Mark A. Caudill is a 15-year U.S. Foreign Service officer who served in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, from 1999 to 2002. Currently he is Vice Consul, U.S. Consulate General, Istanbul, Turkey. Ref 2 Published by:Bloomsbury Publishing USA Author brief: William E. Burns . Visiting and Part-Time Faculty, Department of History, Columbian College of Arts & Sciences William Burns is a historian who lives in the Washington, D.C. metro area with interests in the early modern world and the history of science. ref: columbian.gwu.edu Ref 3 Encyclopaedia of Islam Ref 4 Publisher: Bloomsbury Publishing USA Author brief: Richard Bonney :University of Leicester | LE · School of Historical Studies Ref 5 Publisher: Routledge Author brief: Ali A. Olomi is assistant professor of history at Penn State Abington and an affiliated scholar with the Rutgers Center for Security, Race and Rights. ... Olomi holds a Ph.D. from the University of California Irvine. [1]

• This is the first question in this series, for more info pl see discussion facilitator's brief in discussion sub-section.

===Survey=== ===Discussion===

The brief of main Talk:Jinn#Pre-RfC discussion

The brief of main Talk:Jinn#Pre-RfC discussion is, Both sides seem to maintain neutrality of the article, the main consideration before proposed RfC likely to be WP:DUE how much to cover.User:VenusFeuerFalle says (in the article-body Jinn) importance of jinn-belief (in Islam- and Muslim world) has been highlighted sufficiently already. User:Louis P. Boog says that is not sufficient enough and important scope exists to increase the weight, without it being undue. Similarly in case of rejection of Jinn, VFF feels present coverage is sufficient where as LPB finds some scope on that count too. Highlighted sentences in LPB's sandbox will be for consideration one by one, as advised at WT:RFC. LPB's sandbox talk page has multiple proposed additions. Bookku (talk) 11:41, 22 July 2024 (UTC) as discussion facilitator.

• Suggestions/ comments which help improve sentence, coverage or RfC question are welcome.

Proposed additions of text 2

• In section "Belief":

* Present sentence in the article for consideration here
Belief in jinn is not included among the six articles of Islamic faith, as belief in angels is. Nontheless, many Muslim scholars, including the Hanbalī scholar ibn Taymiyya and the Ẓāhirī scholar ibn Hazm, believe they are essential to the Islamic faith, since they are mentioned in the Quran.

This above present sentence is supported in the article by Ref: Nünlist, Tobias. Dämonenglaube Im Islam. Germany, Walter De Gruyter Incorporated, p.33.

Tobias Nünlist is independent RS acceptable to both side referring to two scholars Hanbalī, ibn Taymiyya in above sentence.There is no disagreement up til here.

• Proposed addition in above sentence A): "..the theologian Fakhr al-Din al-Razi,.."; Ref T. Nünlist (2015) Dämonenglaube im Islam
• Proposed addition in above sentence B): "..and more recently revivalist preachers Abul A'la Maududi, and Fethullah Gülen.."
• Inputs received from WP:NORN notice board: WP:NORN link

Ref-list and Author brief for Proposed additions of text 2
Reflist for Proposed additions of text 2 References Ref1 Publisher: Author:Tobias Nünlist, PD Dr. PD Islamic Studies and Temporary Teaching Fellow. Link opens at www.aoi.uzh.ch Ref2: Publisher: Author: Ref3: Publisher: Author:

Proposed additions of text 3

• In section "Belief":

Openly expressing of doubt about the existence of j̲inn was not common even amidst the Muʿtazila; and among the erstwhile philosophers, al-Fārābī also, tried to skip the question with vague definitions. Ibn Sīnā was an outlier-- he outrightly rejected their existence. In present-day Islam, only a "small number" believes that jinn in the Quran should be understood symbolically instead of literally.

(In 1995 a Professor Nasr Abu Zayd was accused of blaspheme and apostasy, in part for his alleged disbelief in Jinn. He left Egypt for exile after a joint statement calling for his killing was issued by a group of professors at al-Azhar University, the "theological centre of Egypt".)

• Inputs received from WP:RSN for one ref: WP:RSN archive link

Ref-list and Author brief for Proposed additions of text 3
Reflist for Proposed additions of text 3 References Ref 1: Encyclopaedia of Islam Ref 2: Publisher::Intercultural Press Author: Mark Sedgwick Ref 3: Publisher: Oxford University Press Author: Michael Cook (historian) Ref 4: Publisher: Oxford University Press Author: Navid Kermani Ref 5: Publisher: Simon and Schuster Caryle Murphy

Proposed additions of text 4

• In section "Prevalence of belief":

Authors and researchers of parts of the Muslim world have compared belief in jinn to that of belief in angels. Writing about Muslims in South Asia. Sarah E. Lamb and Diane P. Mines have called the belief a primary articles of faith in Islam — so that disbelief in them would be heretical; Philip Hermans writes that belief in jinn in Morocco is "very much alive" and part of Islamic dogma.

Ref-list and Author brief for Proposed additions of text 4
Reflist for Proposed additions of text 4 References Ref 1 Publisher:Indiana University Press Author: Naveeda Khan - Assistant Professor Anthropology, John Hopkins University (Contributing Author Introduction: Page 546) Ref 2 Publisher:Leuven University Press Author: Philip Hermans (Professor of anthropology at the IMMRC)

Proposed additions of text 5

• In lede
  • RfC Question: Should the following sentence be added to "Islam" section in the article?

Many Muslim scholars, believe that belief in Jinn is essential to the Islamic faith, since jinn are mentioned in the Quran.

Ref-list and Author brief for Proposed additions of text 5
Reflist for Proposed additions of text 5 References Author brief for Proposed additions of text 5 Ref 1 Published by: Walter de Gruyter GmbH & Co KG Author brief: Tobias Nünlist, PD Dr. PD Islamic Studies and Temporary Teaching Fellow. Link opens at www.aoi.uzh.ch See also: Proposed additions of text 2 above for "Nünlist-2015"

Bookku (talk) 07:37, 17 June 2024 (UTC) Louis P. Boog (talk) 16:32, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

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