Louisar

Your edits on Opus Dei

Hi Louisar, though you have deleted all your edits of today in Talk:Opus Dei, I want to answer to your suggestion that for the author of the Unofficial homepage "leftist is more appropriate". This may be true, as you seem to know him personally. But here we have to stick to the published knowledge, and User:Mond on his user page labels himself as "Member of the Communist Party". --Túrelio 20:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Not intentional

Thanks, Louisar! I was mistaken. I suppose it has something to do with my using Google and Firefox. I can assure you my mistake was not intentional. :) Thomas 01:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Opus Dei

Hi! Actually, the links are already in the bibliography. The bibliography was copied into the text of the article at some point. --Alecmconroy 15:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Youre wrong. I don't know if you are catholic, but it is obvious that no lay catholic may be under the juridiction of OD rather than of his diocesan bishop. I will refer to canon law and correct your mistake another time. I appreciate your "harmony" stuff but it's not enough and not precise: these are legal matters first, opinion matters second (that is, critics of OD are saying that the shared jusrisdiction ( in principle and in the law) is not in fact shared, or is not shared enough). But jurisdiction is not a fact, it's a legal concept. May I add that youre looking like the boss about this article and it seems to me that you take all the place. At the moment, my reference is OD site - Place in the church:

"The Opus Dei Prelature is a jurisdictional structure belonging to the pastoral and hierarchical organisation of the Church. Like dioceses, territorial prelatures, vicariates and military ordinariates, it has its own autonomy and ordinary jurisdiction to carry out its mission in the service of the whole Church. For that reason it is dependent immediately and directly on the Roman Pontiff, through the Congregation for Bishops.

The authority of the prelate has to do only with the specific mission of the Prelature, and is thus in harmony with the authority of the diocesan bishop in regards to the ordinary pastoral care of the faithful of the diocese:

a) The lay faithful of Opus Dei are subject to the authority of the Prelate in all that refers to the fulfillment of the ascetical, formational, and apostolic commitments which they take up by the formal declaration incorporating them into the Prelature. By virtue of their content, these commitments do not interfere with the authority of the diocesan bishop. At the same time, the lay faithful of Opus Dei continue to be faithful of the dioceses in which they reside, and thus remain under the authority of the diocesan bishop in exactly the same way and regarding the same matters as any other baptized person in the diocese."

I've just cut and paste so i let the "harmony" (perhaps a NPOV problem there) word; but harmony is not the point. The point is the sharing, or more precisely, the delimitations of jurisdictions according to the specific goals. We're not dealing with opinions or criticism here, but with the laws and functionnig of Catholic Church. I'm not sure you're the most competent person about that. Let the others contribute.

Yours Louisar 17:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Louisar-- obviously, you and some of the other editors here have a good deal of knowledge about this subject, so I don't rule out that there's there's a legal nuance that I'm missing. That said, the wording you added definitely didn't clarify the situation, it just introduced some tone problems. Help me to understand what I'm missing regarding shared jurisdiction. Do you have any sources that talk about a "shared" jurisdiction, or about Opus Dei numeraries, for example, being under the jurisdiction of both prelature and diocese simultaneously? As I understand it, a numerary in Opus Dei is strictly under the jurisdiction of the Prelate, rather than under the jurisdiction of a territorial diocese. As far as I can tell, all the journalistic sources use this "jurisdictional" definition of a personal prelature.

Now, I see lots of cites saying that this jurisdictional structure "does not interfere" with the authority of the diocese. I see cites that say the members of OD under the jurisdiction of OD should be in regular communication with the local diocese, and that they will secure permission of the Bishop before hat's a far cry from saying that jurisdiction is shared in any way. It's obvious that the existence of a personal prelature is not intended to conflict or supercede the territorial jurisdictions, but everything I've seen sugges that OD priests, numeraries, et al are "under the jurisdiction of the prelate", not "under the jurisdiction of the diocese".

There are some related questions which are for example, I'm a numerary. What is the probability that I generally celebrate mass within an OD-run center/at an OD-run church? What is the probability that my spiritual director is also a member of OD? What is the probability that my confessor is a member of OD? Everything I've heard has suggested that the answer is "nearly 100%", but if you can point me to sources (particularly journalistic ones) that clarify these points, I would be grateful.

As regards, your accusations against me-- I'm sorry you feel that way. I very strongly believe that no one owns an article, which is why I worked so hard to get the opinions of outside editors who were uninvolved with the article. The truth is, the rewrite I made wasn't really "mine", it was just a retoning/reorganization of what so many others had already created. Also, many editors have contributed to the end product since that time. I think the result has been a much better article.

In reality, people who are closely-involved in a subject and those who are now both work together to create a great article. People close to the subject (i.e. OD members for example) have the domain-specific insight that makes the article so useful. Outsiders with no strong feelings about a subject often have the sense of detachment that makes it easier for them to see how to make article comply with encyclopedic tone and NPOV. Even if I put the some of the finishing polishes on the article, it's really everyone working together that made it possible. --Alecmconroy 18:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. I just found this in the Ut Sit that looks pretty promising: "the laity incorporated in the Prelature Opus Dei continue to be faithful of the dioceses in which they have their domicile or quasi-domicile and are, therefore, under the jurisdiction of the diocesan bishop in what the law lays down for all the ordinary faithful." I think that would suffice enough to remove the words "rather than", because it admits that members of OD are, in at least some respect, under the jurisdiction of the dioceses. By and large, I really don't have any strong feelings one way or the other about OD, I just want to be sure of our facts and such. Based on this cite, I think I can remove "rather than" as you suggest. --Alecmconroy 18:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The reference to "specific spiritual mission"-- I don't know what that means in practice. Obviously, I know what Opus Dei's mission is, and I appreciate that Opus Dei's jurisdiction only extends to doing that mission-- it doesn't, for example, its jurisdiction doesn't cover running a for-profit lemonade stand, for example. I think this is obvious, but perhaps you're making a specific point I don't understand. In straightforward english, what exactly is it your trying to say with the "specific spiritual mission" statement? That OD doesn't conflict with diocese? that OD doesn't do things unrelated to spirituality? That OD is good, or that it has the sanction of the Holy See? If you tell me what point you want to make that you feel isn't being made in the article, maybe we can figure out a way to make it in ways that are verifiable, NPOV, and in encyclopedic tone. --Alecmconroy 11:13, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

3RR warning

Louisar, please don't edit war on Opus Dei. You have reverted the article three times in a couple of hours now. If you revert one more time within 24 hours, you will be in breach of the three-revert rule, and will be blocked from editing. Bishonen | talk 19:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

Opus Dei biography

Hello Louisar, I redirected that article because Wikipedia is not a place to store biographies. We create encyclopedia articles, with bibliographies on the end. We are not a DMOZ, or an academic indexer. Other sites would be far better at this than us! That is why it was redirected. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Louisar, see my answer here: [1]. You'll still find some bibliography in Opus Dei: Priestly Society of the Holy Cross. --Túrelio 22:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)