Luizdl

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• Before October 2015

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IPA for Portuguese

Hey Luiz I just made a little improvement at Help:IPA for Portuguese, and I have some suggestions for you:

1. Do you think it would help English-speaking users to understand Portuguese better if we separate stressed and reduced vowels?
2. Do you think it's relevant to use [ɫ] in EP? Would you replace it with /l/ as in Catalan or Russian?
3. Do you think nasalization should be moved to suprasegmentals and add a note with all the examples?

Regards — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 01:07, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

I have no opposition to any of your suggestions, but I think we should move this talk to

Help talk:IPA for Portuguese for other users give their opinion.--Luizdl ^Talk 23:55, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you're right, I'll move my suggestions to the talk page. I have other questions to ask you about Portuguese, can also /x/ and /θ/ be found in loanwords? And does stress /a/ in Portuguese sound close to [ɑ] or between [ɑ] and [a ~ æ]? If it does, I think we should represent this with a retracted /a/ in explanatory articles like the palatal approximant, even if it's generally transcribed as /a/. For example, on those articles we only use the alveolo-palatal symbols for Catalan. Regards, — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 22:41, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

About /x/ and /θ/, at least in Brazil, are not common loanwords sounds. /x/ is associated with R sounds, for example, there are persons which name where registered as Ruan, and I've read some sources that it's a dialectal relization of R. English /h/ can also be associated with R, I personally think [h] is much more common realization for R than [x], and it was input in that help page as "Marginal consonants", perhaps some speakers distinguish loanword /h/ from R. In dictionaries (our dictionaries generally do not use IPA) generally transcribe it as R as in hardware (/rárduer/) at Aulete, or as /h/ ('harduér) in a Dicionário Aurélio that I have here at home, or, in Portugal, it just not pronounced (àrduére) as at Priberam

About /θ/ it is worse, I am not sure about Portugal, but in Brazil it's generally considered to be the one of most difficult sound to learn when learning English, and we do not have much contact with Spanish here, the few contact we have is from neighbor countries such as Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay, those do not distinguish /θ/ from /s/ as well as Portuguese does not distinguish. Will Smith is generally pronounced [wiw ˈsmitʃ] and bluetooth is generally pronounced [bluˈtufi̥].

About stressed open /a/ it is central [ä], I not sure if it can vary in some dialects or phonetic environment, except the close a, generally considered to be allophone of /a/ in stressed pre-nasal position.--Luizdl ^Talk 01:19, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your explanation. Do you know how tv reporters pronounce bluetooth, Will Smith, theta (Greek letter), mojito (drink), Bach or Mikhail? Do you know if Brazilian TV channels use a pronunciation manual, like this one ([1])

In my opinion, if Italian uses /h/ and other sounds, Portuguese could also use /θ/ and /x/. Many EP speakers are familiar with these sounds, especially cultivated and young speakers

If /a/ is central in both EP and BP we could transcribe it as such in the explanatory pages I mentioned. What do you think? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 17:05, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know if there are such guide, I tried to Google it and I couldn't find any information about it. Also, I've never listened any reporter saying Bluetooth, so I tried Olhar Digital that is a television program specialized in technology, and I found this video, and to my ears they say [bluˈtuf], perhaps you have a better trained ears to this sound than me, would be nice if you check it. About Will Smith, I also have never listened it in a news program, he became famous due to the old television series The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air (Um Maluco no Pedaço), where the character has the same name of the actor, and it was dubbed as [wiw ˈsmitʃ].--Luizdl ^Talk 23:00, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Why does the diminutive cafezinho has secondary stress, I understand àquele could have some sort of secondary stress (although my analysis is different), but I don't get why cafezinho is [kaˌfɛˈziɲu] in BP. And another question, is this the standard pronunciation everywhere? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 00:28, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, and in a former orthography they were marked with grave accent if open or circumflex if closed. It's not only in Brazil, read O Acento de Palavra no Português - Os Acentos Secundários.--Luizdl ^Talk 01:10, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Then these type of words should be transcribed with the secondary stress, do you think we should add a note to explain stressed and unstressed vowels? and what should we do with the nasal vowels, shall we add more examples to the note, perhaps we could add like a mini-chart, what do you think? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 01:27, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

My point of vision is neutral on these issues. If you want to do so it is ok in my opinion.--Luizdl ^Talk 01:56, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Portuguese /u/

Hello. Can you change the Portuguese example on close back rounded vowel to one that is pronounced the same in both Portugal and Brazil? Peter238 (talk) 17:40, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Sure.--Luizdl ^Talk 19:53, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Peter238 (talk) 22:03, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Thiago Cionek

Hi. Could you add Brazilian Portuguese IPA to that article? Mr KEBAB (talk) 14:36, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Sure, I'm just looking for some videos to check how "Cionek" is being pronounced in Brazilian media.--Luizdl ^Talk 17:32, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I couldn't find a video in Brazilian media to check the pronunciation of "Cionek", then I will insert a transcription based on Polish pronunciation, is that ok?--Luizdl ^Talk 17:47, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

That's your call really. If it sounds acceptable to you, then that's good enough. Thanks. Mr KEBAB (talk) 18:07, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

One more thing: could you check the references on the talk pages of voiceless alveolo-palatal sibilant, voiced alveolo-palatal sibilant, voiceless alveolo-palatal affricate and voiced alveolo-palatal affricate? The Portuguese entries looked like OR, so I moved them to the relevant talk pages. Mr KEBAB (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I prefer do not touch those articles because I was in an edit war with another editor, User:Srtª PiriLimPomPom on those articles. I was trying to remove those same entries as well as you've removed too. At that time I haven't find any assertion inside those cited sources saying that they're palatalised postalveolar sounds. Some of those sources uses the term "palatalisation" to refer to the palatalisation (and assibilation) of /t/ and /d/ before /i, ĩ/ to [tʃ] and [dʒ]. One of the authors in those sources names those phonemes as "alveopalatal", more accurately in a masters dissertation of Guimarães, Daniela M. L. O., and her advisor, Silva, Thaïs C. A., describes it as "alveopalatal (ou pós-alveolares)" being articulated as pre-dorso palatal on this pdf at page 32 with ilustration at page 30. She is the only author I've seen describing it as pre-dorso palatal.

At palato-alveolar sibilant articles I cited an acoustic analysis of Portuguese sibilants before /i/ spoken by Japanese learners of Brazilian Portuguese between Portuguese sibilants spoken by Brazilian with the Japanese speakers learning Portuguese, hypothesizing Japanese would have difficulties on pronouncing Brazilian Portuguese sibilants [s, z, ʃ, ʒ, tʃ, dʒ] (alveolar sibilants or palato-alveolar sibilants) because in Japanese sibilants before /i/ are [cɕ, ɟʑ ~ ʑ, ɕ] (alveolopalatal sibilants).--Luizdl ^Talk 04:29, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't think an edit war from almost a year ago is an issue. Especially if the other guy was wrong, and it looks like he was. So, essentially, are you saying that this pdf is the one and only reference that we can use? All I know is that we can't restore what I removed, because it only sources "Portuguese", and then goes on to list dialects, all of which are unreferenced (plus, to me, writing "European (?)" is highly inappropriate - Wikipedia is not a blog). Mr KEBAB (talk) 14:06, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Approximant/semivowel

Thanks. It seems that my memory failed me, as the article semivowel says "semivowels form a subclass of approximants", citing two sources to back it up. I thought it was an either-or choice, to call e.g. [j] an approximant or a semivowel (see e.g. Meyer (2005) cited in the semivowel article), but apparently there isn't such agreement among scholars. Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:39, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

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Obrigado

Olá Luizdl. Só hoje por acaso — passados mais de 7 anos — vi esta sua ajuda. Grato, colega.

De nada.--Luizdl ^Talk 00:08, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

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