MAN 16.242

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Transdev Melbourne

I am reverting the changes due to WP:BRD, please read this before you make any edits, it is an important guideline that underpins how wiki works. Further, to pass DYK (where the page gets to be on the front page) everything needs to be sourced to a reliable source (which we don't have) and it needs to be stable, IE no edit warring. If you revert my edit, it will mean we are engaged in an edit war, and the article won't be able to be on the front page. Please do not do that, Mo7838 and myself have put time and effort into this article, and I know I was looking forward to it being on the front page. Please respond on the talk pages and don't revert my edits. Liamdavies (talk) 20:26, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Ok then, I will not edit the Transdev Melbounrne Page, what a shame as my Fleet info was 99.99% correct. Well good luck, getting the information yourself. I run the Fleet Lists on Bus Australia, and if I want, I can chose to not keep it up to date. Then be much harder the get the information.

Also you and Mo7838, need to learn, Dysons do not own MBL or East West, 100%. I suggest, you join, ATDB, and give member Dyso, a PM, as his a family member, he might be able to explain it you better. If They had of bought MBL, and East West, it would of been mentioned in the press release, but no, it only mentions, RBC, and Midland Tours, which RBC own.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm just asking that we wait until Transdev start, and then we include a table of different buses they operate with pictures and what depots they operate out of, but at the moment we don't really know what Transdev will do. I appreciate the lists at Bus Australia and reference them for other things, but for this one case it's just best to wait and see. Regarding Dysons, I'm not to sure any more and am staying out of it, sorry, but I'm much more a tram guy. Liamdavies (talk) 20:53, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Ok, but if it turns out I'm right about the fleets, which I think you will find. Then don't come asking me for help, your own your own. Got plenty of other sites/people to help.

Dyson's

East West Bus Company and Melbourne Bus Link were owned 50/50 by Dyson Group and Reservoir Bus Group. Thus when Dyson Group purchased Reservoir Bus Group they also gained its interests in these two giving it 100% ownership. Think you are getting confused between management and ownership.Mo7838 (talk) 20:26, 10 June 2013 (UTC) I'm sure not getting confused. Do my a favour, join ATDB, send a PM, to Dyso, and maybe he can explains all this to you. Actually in fact, I'll download my staff letter, to show you.

Internet forums are not valid Wikipedia sources. Dyso could be anybody. Yes I am sure that the legal entity that is Dyson's Bus Service was seperate to East West and Melbourne Bus Link, but ultimately they both had the same parent/s.Mo7838 (talk) 20:51, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Seem you'll never get, I'm not going bother with you's 2, you don't seem to get it. If you want I can show my staff newsletters. Otherwise good luck, you'll be giving people misleading information.

I'm not to sure any more. Why is East West Bus Company not mentioned in the press release? Maybe best to remove the MBL info and wait for a better source? Liamdavies (talk) 20:57, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Up to you. If they were buying them they'd be mention in the press release, it wouldn't make sense to name only 2 operators,and not the other 2. But Seem, Mo7838, still thinks his right. So I'm not going to bother. Plenty other sits, I can spend my time.

I would ask you not to throw in the towel so quickly. Yes, it's been a rough introduction to wiki editing (I apologise for my part in that, but I at least hope you understand what I was asking/doing), and it can be a little bit to learn the ropes. But there is lots of work and it can be hugely rewarding, the key is to add reliable sources with what you add. And if someone does revert/alter what you've written to work with them to make it better. Liamdavies (talk) 21:06, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, you's two are you're own now. BTW talking about reliable sources, I never seen anything saying Dysons own 100% MBL, only RBC, and Midland Tours, have got a mention. P.S There other mistakes, on the MBL, National and Transdev pages, but I'll leave you's to work it out.

I think we got off to a bad start. Unfortunately when a new editor starts making changes, reversing valid cites it is usually a case of vandalism. The best way to flush them out is to reverse their posts and if they are not genuine they will go away.

I think both Liamdavies and I came to the same conclusion with your posts. Of course new informed editors who want to contribute are always welcome. The best way to communicate any differences is via the talk pages and reach a consensus that way. Creates less aggro than reversing one anothers posts.

The reason that Wiki doesn’t accept discussion boards as valid cites is, as I’m sure you know from your Bus Australia work, they can be a forum for information and disinformation.

On reflection my posting that Dyson’s own 100% of East West and Melbourne BL may be incorrect. But as Reservoir is owned by Dyson Group it is no longer correct to say it is a 50/50 joint venture between Dyson and Reservoir. Perhaps it would be more correct to say it is a 50/50 joint venture between Dyson and the other shareholders (former Reservoir owners)?Mo7838 (talk) 00:14, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Mo7838. And I apologise for my part, this is an appalling start, but when I see an IP editor removing sourced material without an edit summary I revert, it's almost always vandalism. It wasn't personal, but you didn't explain why you had removed the material, it had a source and I reverted.

Regarding Transdev, any other time I would say that you, great lets have the fleet list. But, as I've said before DYK requires all information to be sourced, and it is impossible at the moment to get a proper reliable source (for example, which SmartBuses go and which stay for route 703/900 is your personal knowledge, and therefore WP:OR). Once they start let's put in a table with all buses (pictures, chassis, body, seating capacity etc etc.), this is why I was trying to figure out what buses we have pictures of, and which ones we need pictures of. It would be appreciated if you could help with this process, but please understand that wiki is based on consensus, this is why talk pages are great. Together we make a decision, then implement it.

The point that you made on Trandsev's talk page was exactly the question I had asked: do some of these bus models even exist? If you can help get a proper combined fleet listing down on the talk page or in a sandbox, we can built it up, add pictures, info, sources, etc and have it ready to implement August 4 when they start operation. Liamdavies (talk) 05:58, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Transdev Melbourne fleet (section break)

You would be better to put it as a 50/50 joint venture between Dyson and the other shareholders (former Reservoir owners), as there is NOTHING anywhere, that's say they bought East West and MBL. The only reason, I mention a internet forum, is becuase even though the media release don't mention MBL or East West.

As for the fleet information, sorry you can find out the information yourself. Not that hard really look, at the tender documents, as tells you how many buses they are getting and what type. Then compare it with the Bus Australia fleet lists, where you'll find more update to date information. If your read the tender documents, you'll see almost all Smartbuses go to Transdev, the tender documents, list how many of each type they even get, and NO I will not help get a proper combined fleet listing down on the talk page. You want to wait to takeover day, that's fine, but I'll be too busy to help then. MAN 16.242 (talk)

Though it would be impossible to have fleet list ready by August 4th, as you want to wait till then, before doing anything.Also not sure how you going get fleet lists information you need, once take over happens, as fleet lists on BA good chance won't be up to date, so you'll still won't know which buses are kepted for 703/900, despite the fact if you read tender documents, you can work out which ones will stay.MAN 16.242 (talk)

Fine, if you don't wish to collaborate that's ok. But the door is open. Liamdavies (talk) 10:03, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I could help, but it impossible to have fleet information, if you don't want to use the tender documents. It tells you how much of each bus they'll be getting, so from that you can work out, what buses stay for 703/900. But you don't want use that, then I don't know what you want to use?

As the BA fleet lists, maybe not be update to date with new operator, due to new depots, and all though we know which type of buses are going to Transdev, but for the smartbuses at least, there one model(only one)where only some of the buses, are going to Transdev, and the tender documents show that, but that's not a major worry, as not listing the Fleet number, just the Model, and how many they got of each, and that's all the information you need. But if you don't wish to use that, how can I help. As once takeover happens, the information still be same, so I'm not sure in what way I can help.MAN 16.242(talk)

The problem we had with the tender document is that some buses don't appear on Bus Australia Fleet List, so it's inconsistent. For example the tender document lists Scania L94UBX2 which aren't listed on BAFL. So does this model actually exist? If not, what is it counted as at BAFL? Additionally, a complete fleet list that shows total numbers, rather than break down for each depot would be much better. Ultimately I think a table like at Streetcars in New Orleans#Current rolling stock or MAX Light Rail#Rolling stock would be best, but the inconsistencies have to be sorted out before we include it. And, we still have the DYK issue, that no unsourced information can be in the article (once it's cleared DYK, it doesn't matter). (also if you put four tildes ~ after your comment it will sign and date stamp it for you). Liamdavies (talk) 10:28, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

They are on the fleet list, you need to look better. For example Scania L94UB at MBL

http://fleetlists.busaustralia.com/vic.php?search=MBL&chassisreq=Scania%20L94UB&bodyreq=Volgren%20%22CR222L%22

But if that's no good, Then there no where else going to get fleet information, even if you wait to takeover date.

Some buses, have come and gone, but not many, and BAFL have got all that information, but if again, if you're waiting till takeover date, no other information is going to come available in that time. So you'll never be able to have a fleet list, cause of the inconsistent, so might be best forget about it then. As what are you going to do once takeover, happens and there still is inconsistent between the tender document and fleet lists? MAN 16.242(talk)

Yes, I found the MBL list, but it lists only 'Scania L94UB' buses and not 'Scania L94UBX2' that are listed in the tender document, is there actually a difference between these two vehicles? Also The tender says that MBL have 'Volvo B10BLE' buses, but BAFL doesn't. Which is right? (Yet again: put four tildes ~ after your comment it will sign and date stamp it for you) Liamdavies (talk) 10:47, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

If you read MBL Fleet Lists, you'll see the Volvo B10BLEs have been sold, and replaced by Scania K280UBs. And X2 refers to the number of axles.That's the only difference.MAN 16.242 (talk) 10:54, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

So does that mean that MBL currently only operate Scania L94UB and Scania K 230UB 4X2 buses (with Scania L94UB and Scania L94UBX2 being the same bus)? If so that means that we have photos of all different types of MBL bus, this is good! What about the others? Which NBC and SmartBus buses are essentially the same model? (As I've said, I'm much more a tram man, buses all look kinda the same to me.) Liamdavies (talk) 10:59, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Mostly correct, but they also run Scania K280UB, but buses have got different bodys.As for National ones and Smartbus, yes again some are the same.MAN 16.242 (talk) 11:03, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I find this whole body/chassis think odd. So would I be correct in assuming that Scania K230UB, Scania K280UB, and Scania L94UB (388-411) all look the same as they have the same body (Volgren "CR228L")? How do we sort this mess into an easy to follow table of information. The current list is simply huge, with some 'classes' only having a few vehicles. How different are Scania chassis? Could we just say 84 Volgren bodied Scanias? Liamdavies (talk) 11:22, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes from 388 and up they look mostly the same. I think it would be list to list them like on BA, where as list what body the buses have as well. As some bodys are quite different. Listing them as allScania chassis with Volgren, doesn't give much information though, and chassis can be quite differentMAN 16.242 (talk) 11:30, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Ok, but the list you put up, which I've placed below is massive, with many small classes. Overwhelmingly so. It needs to be consolidated a little, and am trying to figure out how. Also from a practical point, it would require a massive amount of images, which poses two problems: 1) taking all the pictures (not many people take bus photos) and 2) the size (KB wise) of the page would me enormous.

NBC:

• 1 Designline Hybrid/Designline
• 6 Enterprise Bus Limited/Designline "Plasma"
• 33 M.A.N SL200/Ansair "MK2"
• 1 MAN 10.150/Volgren
• 13 MAN 12.220/Custom Coaches "CB60"
• 40 MAN 15.220/Custom Coaches "CB60"
• 8 MAN 14.220/Custom Coaches "CB60"
• 1 MAN 16.240/Custom Coaches "CB60"
• 50 MAN 16.240/Designline
• 5 MAN 18.310/Custom Coaches "CB80"
• 1 Mercedes Benz LO812/PMCA
• 11 Scania L94UB/Custom Coaches "CB60 C-Max"
• 30 Mercedes Benz O405NH/Custom Coaches "550"
• 18 Mercedes Benz O405NH/Custom Coaches "CB60"
• 3 Mercedes Benz LO812/Custom Coaches
• 2 Mercedes Benz OH1830LE/Custom Coaches "CB60 Evo II"
• 53 Scania K230UB/Custom Coaches "CB60 Evo II"...244
• 2 Scania K280UB/Custom Coaches "CB60 Evo II"
• 5 Scania K280UB/Volgren "CR228L"
• 2 Scania K310UA/Custom Coaches "CB60 Evo II"

need 4 MBL:

• 1 Mazda T3500/Mazda
• 2 Mercedes Benz Sprinter 308COI
• 1 Toyota Coaster/
• 24 Scania L94UB/Volgren "CR222L"
• 6 Scania L94UB/Volgren "CR227L"
• 24 Scania L94UB/Volgren "CR228L"
• 24 Scania K230UB/Volgren "CR228L"
• 6 Scania K280UB/Volgren "CR228L"

SmartBus Orbitals:

• 9 Mercedes Benz O405NH/Custom Coaches "550"
• 1 MAN 15.220/Designline "Orbitor"
• 12 MAN 16.220/Designline "Orbitor"
• 31 MAN 16.240/Designline
• 8 Mercedes Benz 0500LE/Volgren "CR228L"
• 9 Scania K230UB/Volgren "CR228L"
• 62 Volvo B7RLE/Volgren "CR228L"

Is there anyway we could consolidate or condense this list? Liamdavies (talk) 11:36, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't know how you're going to consolidate it. As while some classes, only got few buses, lot of them can be quite different. Up to you, what you want to do.MAN 16.242 (talk) 11:44, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure. I'll have a think about it. How different are MAN 12.220, MAN 15.220, MAN 14.220, and MAN 16.240 as all have Custom Coaches "CB60" bodies. Liamdavies (talk) 12:02, 11 June 2013 (UTC) They look the same, but there is difference in the chassis .

But put all under all, does that mean you'll do same for Scania various models that got same bodyMAN 16.242 (talk) 12:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

What about something like:

Image	Chassis	Body	Fleet size
	MAN 12.220 MAN 15.220 MAN 14.220 MAN 16.240	Custom Coaches "CB60"	62

Liamdavies (talk) 12:11, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

100% up to you, how you want to have it.MAN 16.242 (talk) 12:19, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

But it doesn't lose to much information? I might back up a table over the next little while and ask you to have a once over. If you don't mind. Liamdavies (talk) 12:30, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

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