User talk:Mabuska/Archive 42010/September

Republic of Ireland

Mabuska, please stop changing the edits I made on the second paragraph of the article. It is coherent and scholarly,I don't know why you keep reverting it, maybe you have the impression it is POV? Just to let you know there is nothing POV about it.The sentence flows together,your reverts make it clunky and awkward, so please stop.Sheodred (talk) 19:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Umm i made one revert on the second paragraph, and your edits weren't discussed beforehand and the rewording you did changed the meaning of the entire paragraph. I never said it was POV either so get your facts straight. The paragraph was stable as it was. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

List of regions

The level of disambiguation may have been a little heavy handed. Nevertheless, i think that it is a bad decision to do away with all disambiguation. Otherwise irredendists will be able to claim that the fictions of County Dublin and County Tipperary have validity. As we both know, they are just romantic notions. The Regons article needs to stamp out stealth irredentism or anything that might succour such a cause. And I don't think it's fair to characterise it as OR: it't entirely backed by objective, non OR legislation. Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:38, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah i think i treated heavy handed disambig with heavy handed removal lol. However the article does now clearly state and wiki-link too administrative counties of Ireland where a reader can find out about the difference between "traditional" counties and things like Dublin and Tipperary - so what way would suit the article best? Though i think the statements of "admnistrative" should cover the issue. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:19, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

What is a county in Ireland? The article "Administrative counties of Ireland" is not shedding much light. I think that we need a new article, or a radical makeover to the existing aricle. To my mind, there seem to have been 4 distinct periods. Starting post the creation of Wicklow (1625 ?), we seem to have (1) the much disputed "traditional" counties (2) the judicail counties which were identical with 1 apart from the split of Tipperary into North Riding and South Riding (3) administrative counties which were identical to 2 apart from tinkering at the margins to preserve the integrity of towns even at the expense of breaching county bounds of 2 above (e.g. New Ross, Athlone towns) and (4) the new administrative counties that were identical to 3 above apart from County Dublin which was split into 3 counties. To all of this must be added the problem of city boroughs. What status did they have in 1 ,2 ,3 above? It seems to me that by 4, they were on an equal footing with counties. By this logic, the former County Dublin now has four counties; the former County Cork now has two counties etc.

Coming to the Regions then, why the use of the words "administrative counties and city councils"? Does this not imply a level of the superiority of the one over the other? Surely by 2001 they are all administrative counties albeit one set is described as a City Council as opposed to a County Council? Would it not be fairer then to describe them as "the areas under the jurisdiction of County X and X City Council"? Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:45, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Taking a proper look at that administrative counties of Ireland article, it has only had one edit in its four year history unbelievably. Though yes the article doesn't shed much light and is a shambles. The only regions article i've edited was the Irish Midlands and the main regions one itself. There is no confusion in the article at present from my edits about "administrative counties and city councils" which i have no idea where that phrase is coming from

"Administrative county's" no longer exist in the Republic since the Local Government Act of 2001, with the administrative county being replaced by a "county council", - hence why the article now states in its lede:

“ Each region was made up of several of the administrative counties of the Republic of Ireland, however with the Local Government Act 2001, these were replaced with city and county councils. ”

The Irish Regions Office on local authorities states that there are 29 county councils (the former administrative counties) and 5 city councils that act as local authorities in the Republic. Their article on regional authorities in its second section makes it clear that each Irish region's members are nominated from amongst its local authorities - which is why it now states that the regions consist of the city and county councils.

However i think List of regions of the Republic of Ireland and Regional Authorities in Ireland should be merged together as they are essentially the same thing.

Mabuska ^(talk) 10:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I've also just realised - why are there articles such as South-West Region and South-West Regional Authority? Seeing as they are almost the same in their possible scope should they not be merged? I don't see why the regional authority bit can't be put into the regions articles. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:04, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your two merger proposals. Little work would be needed. A pointless division would be eliminated. But could I also ask that your clarity on city/ county councils be brought into the "traditional county" debate. Or am i flogging a dead house? Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:10, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

To overturn the outdated "traditional county" notion? I think we'd be flogging a dead horse as i don't see how it'd convince the "traditionalists" (if we can call them that) anymore than using the administrative county arguement. Though it does deserve mention to some degree as in an "Historical counties" article as all counties, in Northern Ireland and the Republic, are essentially historic with no modern usage other than by the GAA, tourist guides, the older generations and irredentists. The old counties in the Republic where supplanted by administrative counties, and these have in turn being supplanted by county councils - the only thing thats the same is the names and borders (for most except County Dublin obviously lol). Mabuska ^(talk) 21:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Republic of Ireland

Mabuska, please stop changing the edits I made on the second paragraph of the article. It is coherent and scholarly,I don't know why you keep reverting it, maybe you have the impression it is POV? Just to let you know there is nothing POV about it.The sentence flows together,your reverts make it clunky and awkward, so please stop.Sheodred (talk) 19:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Umm i made one revert on the second paragraph, and your edits weren't discussed beforehand and the rewording you did changed the meaning of the entire paragraph. I never said it was POV either so get your facts straight. The paragraph was stable as it was. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

List of regions

The level of disambiguation may have been a little heavy handed. Nevertheless, i think that it is a bad decision to do away with all disambiguation. Otherwise irredendists will be able to claim that the fictions of County Dublin and County Tipperary have validity. As we both know, they are just romantic notions. The Regons article needs to stamp out stealth irredentism or anything that might succour such a cause. And I don't think it's fair to characterise it as OR: it't entirely backed by objective, non OR legislation. Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:38, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah i think i treated heavy handed disambig with heavy handed removal lol. However the article does now clearly state and wiki-link too administrative counties of Ireland where a reader can find out about the difference between "traditional" counties and things like Dublin and Tipperary - so what way would suit the article best? Though i think the statements of "admnistrative" should cover the issue. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:19, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

What is a county in Ireland? The article "Administrative counties of Ireland" is not shedding much light. I think that we need a new article, or a radical makeover to the existing aricle. To my mind, there seem to have been 4 distinct periods. Starting post the creation of Wicklow (1625 ?), we seem to have (1) the much disputed "traditional" counties (2) the judicail counties which were identical with 1 apart from the split of Tipperary into North Riding and South Riding (3) administrative counties which were identical to 2 apart from tinkering at the margins to preserve the integrity of towns even at the expense of breaching county bounds of 2 above (e.g. New Ross, Athlone towns) and (4) the new administrative counties that were identical to 3 above apart from County Dublin which was split into 3 counties. To all of this must be added the problem of city boroughs. What status did they have in 1 ,2 ,3 above? It seems to me that by 4, they were on an equal footing with counties. By this logic, the former County Dublin now has four counties; the former County Cork now has two counties etc.

Coming to the Regions then, why the use of the words "administrative counties and city councils"? Does this not imply a level of the superiority of the one over the other? Surely by 2001 they are all administrative counties albeit one set is described as a City Council as opposed to a County Council? Would it not be fairer then to describe them as "the areas under the jurisdiction of County X and X City Council"? Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:45, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Taking a proper look at that administrative counties of Ireland article, it has only had one edit in its four year history unbelievably. Though yes the article doesn't shed much light and is a shambles. The only regions article i've edited was the Irish Midlands and the main regions one itself. There is no confusion in the article at present from my edits about "administrative counties and city councils" which i have no idea where that phrase is coming from

"Administrative county's" no longer exist in the Republic since the Local Government Act of 2001, with the administrative county being replaced by a "county council", - hence why the article now states in its lede:

“ Each region was made up of several of the administrative counties of the Republic of Ireland, however with the Local Government Act 2001, these were replaced with city and county councils. ”

The Irish Regions Office on local authorities states that there are 29 county councils (the former administrative counties) and 5 city councils that act as local authorities in the Republic. Their article on regional authorities in its second section makes it clear that each Irish region's members are nominated from amongst its local authorities - which is why it now states that the regions consist of the city and county councils.

However i think List of regions of the Republic of Ireland and Regional Authorities in Ireland should be merged together as they are essentially the same thing.

Mabuska ^(talk) 10:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I've also just realised - why are there articles such as South-West Region and South-West Regional Authority? Seeing as they are almost the same in their possible scope should they not be merged? I don't see why the regional authority bit can't be put into the regions articles. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:04, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your two merger proposals. Little work would be needed. A pointless division would be eliminated. But could I also ask that your clarity on city/ county councils be brought into the "traditional county" debate. Or am i flogging a dead house? Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:10, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

To overturn the outdated "traditional county" notion? I think we'd be flogging a dead horse as i don't see how it'd convince the "traditionalists" (if we can call them that) anymore than using the administrative county arguement. Though it does deserve mention to some degree as in an "Historical counties" article as all counties, in Northern Ireland and the Republic, are essentially historic with no modern usage other than by the GAA, tourist guides, the older generations and irredentists. The old counties in the Republic where supplanted by administrative counties, and these have in turn being supplanted by county councils - the only thing thats the same is the names and borders (for most except County Dublin obviously lol). Mabuska ^(talk) 21:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

question

Hello Mabuska, I was wondering if you were in the UK/NI and knew of any used bookshops I could get in touch with, preferably ones that have an online storefront. I'm looking for an out of print book and can't find it here in the U.S. Thanks.Malke 2010 (talk) 21:01, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I am indeed from the UK/NI. What book is it? I haven't been to any second-hand bookshops really to know of any, but i can help you search for it. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:31, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

It's called "We Landed by Moonlight." It's all about the Westland Lysander RAF Squadron that rescued downed Allied pilots. I want to use it to work on the Westland Lysander article for the military project. Thanks so much, I appreciate your help.Malke 2010 (talk) 22:29, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Amazon.co.uk has used ones listed, but they seem quite dear going for at least £25.00 despite the RRP price being £9.95. [1], and then postage across the Antlantic would cost yet more if they even do it.

This one is quoting $14.82 for a used one. Despite stating in dollars the firm seems to be London, UK based, but it seems cheaper than Amazons.

WHSmith has it for £7.11 at the moment.

So its looking like you might have to shell out $20.00 including shipping if you can get for it at the moment but that looks far better than the $80.00+ prices on Amazon.com. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

WHSmith looks like the best bet. Thank you so much.Malke 2010 (talk) 00:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Censorship etc.

Just thought I ought to say, I didn't log on for a little over 24 hours, then discovered that a discussion at Talk:Republic of Ireland that I thought was closed was suddenly raging again, and that you were waiting for an answer from me. So, just to let you know, I haven't been ducking your question. I'll bring myself up to speed in the morning (Wed.) and give you a considered answer then, OK? Scolaire (talk) 00:04, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I've just made a post suggesting a compromise on the issue.Malke 2010 (talk) 00:11, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

It was more of one of those questions that doesn't really need an answer, just more to state a point that if you ask for an encyclopedic reason for its keeping, you should provide one for its removal so that an even-keel is kept. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:26, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Did you know?

I see like me you like facts that people maybe don't know. Did you know that 5 off the 12 main military leader of the UK during WWII (Commanders of World War II) were of Irish descend? And including in this group is the most famous of them all Barney Montgomery? Bjmullan (talk) 00:10, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I already knew that :-) If it wasn't for those Ulster and Irish military personnel advising Churchill, he would of made many impulsive decisions that could of proved disasterous. They reined in his impulsiveness. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:08, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

A5

I'm confused as to why the citation tag has been added when both the official scheme website, and a very indepth NI roads website which provides all possible details on the scheme and past proposals has been provided. Have you read the references? --NorthernCounties (talk) 11:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

If you read the citation tag you will see why it was added. If you look at the article you can see why as well - its a shambles in terms of possible copyright violations and possibility of unsourced material. Each statement or paragraph would be better with a cite at the end of it so that it can be easily found out what source is used for it and to check whther its a copy-and-paste job. Two singly used references hardly cuts it. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:56, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

In fact this: In June 2008, Regional Development Minister Conor Murphy announced plans for a feasibility study into creating an A6 - A5 Link Road around Derry City, This will more than likely also be of HQDC Standard. Please note though that this is not a commitment on behalf of his department - sounds like a copy-and-paste job and liable for deletion for copyright infringment and going against Wikipedia conventions. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:58, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Well instead just tagging this, maybe we could reword it to make it suitable? This would be the obvious solution to me, as opposed to sticking a tag on it? However not got the time as of this moment --NorthernCounties (talk) 12:22, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Tags are there for current issues. This is a major issue and the tag should remain until the issue is sorted. Unless the article conforms to Wiki standards there is no reason for the tag to be removed as the tag is fully justified - and as you said haven't got the time to do it. So the tag should be there for another editor to make the effort. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:59, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Belfast etc. baronies – article titles

Hi Mabuska, I've just found the articles you created a few months back on the baronies of Belfast and the surrounding area (and I daresay a few more). Nice work on creating these, I hadn't heard of the baronies before myself. I was just wondering whether the article titles should actually have "Barony of" removed? Thus leaving, for instance, "Belfast Upper", "Massereene Upper", etc. – where an article of that name already exists, perhaps using "(barony)" as a suffix. My thoughts being that any articles I've seen on similar allocations of land (e.g. parishes, townlands, etc.) have used only the local name and not distinction "parish of" etc. Also anywhere that the baronies are mentioned in text, they are generally referred to without "barony of".

Thought I'd pick your brains on this rather than go ahead and make the changes, in case you had something different in mind. Fattonyni (talk) 14:07, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

When a barony is being first mentioned it is usually described as "the barony of such and such" to make it clear what it is known as. Though i agree that the way i used is erroneous, however i had virtually all the barony articles for all NI counties other than Down and Armagh created before i did the parish and townland ones i created when i was pointed to conventions for naming articles.

In effect this would mean that uniquely named baronies such as "Massereene Upper" would be titled just that, whereas ones that aren't unique and share the name with something else that has a wiki article such as the barony of Keenaght, which shares its name with a townland in the neighbouring barony of Loughinsholin. In this case it should be "Keenaght (barony)" and "Keenaght (townland)" just as there is Maghera town and Maghera (parish).

I'll go ahead and change what i can as there are a lot of inter-linked links between the articles and templates etc.

I really need to do the barony articles for Down and Antrim and get the maps of them done just as have for the Fermanagh baronies lol. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:50, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Yep that sounds about right to me – in which case I'll change what I can then, I just wanted to check you were in agreement first :-) Fattonyni (talk) 22:28, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

FYI

You are mentioned Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/O Fenian in this SPI. Mo ainm~Talk 19:23, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

And also at mine as well :-) Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bjmullan. Bjmullan (talk) 19:25, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Why am i mentioned for? Is this to do with Maiden City or whoever claiming O Fenian and NorthernCounties are one and the same? And if so what is Bjmullan's for? I see nothing on O Fenians page to really give me an insight other than previous accusations, and Bjmullans was deleted for some reason. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:16, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Mabuska, I think you will find that the allegations were made by a now blocked user. Just one of the many trouble makers that seem to be about and nothing to worry about. My investigations was deleted almost immediately. Shame your not me as you could update the IRC records from the last rally for me lol. Keep up the good work. Bjmullan (talk) 12:25, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

You were only accused because you contested one of Factocops many edits. That for him, indicates you're obviously a sock. Await further irrelevant allegations. --NorthernCounties (talk) 12:42, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Having discovered what it was all about earlier on i have to say its laughable and offensive to me at the same time lol. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:13, 28 September 2010 (UTC)