User talk:Marine 69-71/Archive 36

Manuel Rivera, Jr.

Hi. Are the first and second references in this article the same? I don't have access to the offline one, but they are boot written by the same author and published on the same newspaper at the same date. Or have you made some confusion? Thanks, --damiens.rf 01:21, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

• Fixed, The NYT article changed the name of the article from "Chronicle" to "Style". It was of no wonder that the "Chronicle" link could not be found. Tony the Marine (talk) 02:09, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Please revert

Re [1] [2][3][4][5][6][7] and [8], you appear to be canvassing. Please revert. ScottyBerg (talk) 01:02, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

• I will not revert and I am not canvassing. I am not asking anyone to be in favor or against. I am not asking for votes, but for opinions be it in favor to my opinion or not. Tony the Marine (talk) 02:04, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. ScottyBerg (talk) 02:33, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

FYI - ANI

Hi, your contributions are mentioned in a thread at the ANI - Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Marine_69-71 - thanks - Off2riorob (talk) 17:32, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Important

Tony, please explain this edit before you do anything else. If it's what I think it is, you really need to apologize, promise not to do that again, and think about taking a break from here for a while. If it's not, you need to explain it, because it certainly seems obvious to me. Please be aware that "S was just a random letter I put in" isn't really going to be tenable. If the truth is "it represents a real person, but I did it that way so I'd know who it was, and they'd know who it was, but I could have plausible deniabiltity if called on it", then it's definitely better to just man up and say so. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:55, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Patience

You are a man of many talents. Beneath the incredible contributions you have made here and continue to make, you are human. That means you are imperfect. Even ArbCom recognizes that people make mistakes from time to time. Bruhahas have a way of exploding over the silliest of things sometimes, like the above mentioned "S". Wikipedia at times seems especially prone to the sort of behavior that makes the tiniest of disputes into Waterloo. You can't be everything to all people. No matter what you do, some people will find fault.

Relax, take a deep breath, and remember there are a hell of a lot of people here who think the world of you and your contributions. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:09, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

• Thank you, your advice means the world to me. Tony the Marine (talk) 20:10, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Request for comments

Hi Tony. I don't know if we have ever crossed paths before, but I observed the thread about you on ANI. ScottyBerg wishes to file a WP:RFC/U or WP:RFC/ADMIN, but is having some difficulty finding a second valid certifier. I'm sure you can understand why that may be. I was hoping that you would be willing to waive that requirement, so that proper dispute resolution (aka, not dramacentral) can commence. NW (Talk) 02:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• NW, thank you for your message. NW, you may not be aware, but my health is not in the beat condition. I suffered a double bypass last April. When I recovered I created 11 articles for Wikipedia. Everything was fine until I mistakenly protected "Irish immigration to Puerto Rico". Since then Scotty has been givimg me hell. As you have noticed in the noticeboard they have created an unfounded hysteria because I in bad taste jokenly created a "Wall of Dishonor" and right away Scotty is making a false claim that I had him in mind. They are using this as a base to attack me. I have apologized countless times for my actions and that does not seem as enough. I'm sorry, but let Scotty and Hans take whatever action they want, I'm too tried physically to put up with all this. Tony the Marine (talk) 02:44, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

You are under no obligation to participate in an RfC if you don't want to. What NW asked is if you'd waive the certification requirement (assuming you have the power to do so). You haven't responded to that. Will you? ScottyBerg (talk) 03:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I sorry, but I believe that you can find someone else to help you in your quest. I have been acussed of being a liar, a time bomb, a killer and so on. I'm just a little tired of it all. Tony the Marine (talk) 03:13, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Tony, if your health is a serious problem, why not just take some time off from Wikipedia, let's say a week or two? I don't want to see ScottyBerg or anyone else contribute to your elevated stress level. Stay healthy, and if that means taking a Wikibreak, then make it so. Think about how many good books you can finish within that time frame! :) Viriditas (talk) 06:11, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Tony, I think you've done a lot of good work for Wikipedia, but I think you've taken it a little too personally sometimes when someone disagreed with you on content, like in the Irish immmigration to Puerto Rico article. Please accept the feedback you have received recently at that article, on the noticeboard, and at ANI and get back to good, strong, content contributions. Cla68 (talk) 07:11, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Tony, how do you think this would go today? What's changed? Why would your answers to the few questions be so different? What the hell happened? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:20, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

...and this from the boss is pretty much going to be the end of things, I'm afraid. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 14:34, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Tony!

Hello my friend - I just wanted to let you know I was thinking about you. --David Shankbone 03:56, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

ANI

FYI, the ANI thread concerning you has reopened to discuss a possible block. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:18, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Proposed conciliation

Tony, please take this as a sincere suggestion. Would you voluntary give up your admin bit. If you think carefully, you don't really need it. You're a great content contributor, but that does not mean the community should punish you by giving you unneeded responsibility, that seems to bring you more problems than solutions. Writing about subjects you love is fun. Fighting vandalism, resolving disputes, enforcing image polices is not.

Why be the worst admin if you can simply be the best editor?

Think about it.

Yours truly, Robert-François - aka --damiens.rf 15:24, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• Damiens, believe or not I consider you an excellent person and I am not ashamed to say that I have learned a lot form you. I will think about it. Tony the Marine (talk) 18:59, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Possible Resolution

Hello, I am talking with you to see if it is at all possible to reach a resolution to this ANI without going to ArbCom or an RfC. I would like to say that I do believe that some of the comments about you in that discussion were completely inappropriate. But that doesn't mean things can just be left as they are. You've acknowledged that at least some of the actions discussed were wrong, but the manner and time it took for you to do so have caused many of us to feel that it is no longer proper for you to have the tools. So I am writing to ask that you take Jimbo's suggestion and voluntarily hand in your tools and, if you wish to do so, stand for RfA again. If you have any kind of alternate proposal for resolution, I would be happy to hear it. Best, ‡ MAHEWA ‡ • talk 18:24, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• Thank yoyu for your message. I will think about it. Tony the Marine (talk) 18:59, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• Tony ... think quickly; once it goes to court-martial, it's all downhill and ugly from there. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 19:27, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• Hello Tony, I'd like to second what Mahewa suggested. And I'd like to add that I've felt some disgust toward those who attacked you personally, and especially for badgering you on your military service and status as a war veteran. I've also refused to block you for your actions, I don't think anyone should be "punished" in that way. Giving up the tools is a difficult thing to do, it would break my heart if I felt the need to do so myself, but in light of all that has happened and the numerous comments from a multitude of editors, I think it would be the best thing. If nothing else, I think it will be difficult for you to act as an administrator given the lack of confidence that many people have expressed. I just think it's the right thing for you to do, and I'd have a great deal of respect for anyone who was able to make that difficult decision. -- Atama頭 19:34, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to say that I agree with Atama's additional points completely (except for the block issue, which I haven't considered because it's not within my power). I don't want or expect you to make a snap decision. We'll need a decision some time in the near future, but that doesn't mean it needs to be made immediately or without due consideration. You have put in a lot of time and energy into the project and rightfully received the tools as a result. I cannot imagine this is an easy time for you. It's a decision you have to make for yourself as to what the best way to proceed is. ‡ MAHEWA ‡ • talk 19:47, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• Even though the thread is closed, I feel that I should hold myself accountable for my mistakes, therefore I am auto imposing upon myself a probation of one year where I will not use my admin. tools and in which my behavior will be monitored by User: Atama. Any concerns which require admin. intervention, feel free to use the services of another admin. Tony the Marine (talk) 23:08, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for taking proactive steps and looking for a compromise. I genuinely appreciate it. I was wondering if you would be willing to go one step farther to help people feel as though this issue is closed with no need for monitoring. Would you be willing to actually have your tools removed for the one-year period? I realize that, generally, an administrator can only come back from a voluntary absence if he began the absence without controversy, so we might not be able to do this. But I'm not really concerned with the procedure or ability for it to happen at this point. All I'm asking is, if your tools could be removed for the one-year period, would you consent to that happening? Thank you again. ‡ MAHEWA ‡ • talk 23:41, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

If you voluntarily request tool removal, WP:RESYSOP gives you an option to request them again at a later date. -- Atama頭 23:45, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I would suggest RESYSOP doesn't apply here because of criterion 2. StrPby (talk) 23:54, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I would disagree, because doing it for this set amount of time isn't evading scrutiny, it's coming to a mutually agreeable resolution, which is really what we're supposed to try for in dispute resolution. But this is exactly the discussion I was hoping to avoid. It's important to me to know whether he would or would not be willing to take this additional step. If he is, we can look into whether it's possible, and it may not be, but that doesn't really matter if he wouldn't do it in the first place. ‡ MAHEWA ‡ • talk 00:11, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• Thank you all for the suggestions. If I fail to live up to the rules in my auto imposed probation, then I will do the honorable thing and give them up altogether. Tony the Marine (talk) 00:18, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I just want to make sure that I am understanding correctly that you are replying in the negative. You are willing to promise to not use the tools for a year, but you would not consent to them actually being removed from your account? I'm not trying to argue with your decision. It's just that those deciding whether or not to proceed with an RfC need to know exactly where things lie. Thank you. ‡ MAHEWA ‡ • talk 00:30, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• I love making positive contributions to Wikpedia and working here. My love of the project has even been recognized by the Puerto Rican Government.

This accomplishment is dedicated to all Wikipedians because their work matters here

These are my numbers: 7 years in Wikipedia, 6 years as an admin, 570+ articles, 4 featured articles, 1 featured list, 21 Good articles, 60 DYK's - After six years as an admin. I recently made some mistakes and I can understand if I am placed in some type of probation were I am monitored and forbidden to use my tools maybe for a year, but do I really merit the removal of my adminship? Tony the Marine (talk) 00:50, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not here arguing about whether you should lose your adminship. I am certainly not contesting the fact that you've made substantial, valuable contributions to Wikipedia. I am only asking whether, if it is possible, you would be willing to set this matter to rest by having your promise to not use the tools for a year enforced by a bureaucrat rather than your good faith (I understand others might monitor you, but they wouldn't actually be able to do anything more than calling you on it, which would again come down to your good faith). And I understand if your answer is no. I just want to make sure that everyone can know exactly where things stand before making any decisions. ‡ MAHEWA ‡ • talk 01:12, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• I would not mind if a bureaucrat monitored my actions to make sure that I am keeping my promise. Tony the Marine (talk) 01:57, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry Tony, I'm trying hard to understand here; I really feel like we can get a solution that's amicable to both sides. I'm not sure I understand why you are being resistant to this proposal. From my perspective, it differs from yours only in that you won't be able to break your promise. I know you're planning on keeping your promise, though, so I feel like I'm missing something. I'd like to understand. And if you don't want to explain it to me, that's your choice. But please just give me a straightforward answer. ‡ MAHEWA ‡ • talk 02:18, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• I guess I must have misunderstood, sorry for that. Exactly what do you mean by having my promise to not use the tools for a year enforced by a bureaucrat? Tony the Marine (talk) 02:26, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, that was a lack of clarity on my part. What I meant by that is what I originally proposed, having a bureaucrat enforce your promise by removing your tools for the year. Would you consent to that? ‡ MAHEWA ‡ • talk 02:34, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Just an FYI, a bureaucrat has no ability to remove the tools from an administrator. They can grant them, but not take them away, only a steward can take them away. (There is this RfC which would change that, but for now, a crat can't do it.) -- Atama頭 16:00, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

My apologies, I realized that oddity after I saw the RfCs, which will probably soon be an anachronism. But my underlying point stays the same and is somewhat strengthened if the RfCs don't pass. The likelihood of any effective enforcement if he does not give up his tools and chooses to use them is practically nothing. ‡ MAHEWA ‡ • talk 17:28, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• I understand now, I would rather auto impose upon myself a probation of one year where I will not use my admin. tools. As I said I'm willingto have anyone monitor my behavior during tha t time. I believe that this should not be dificult task since there are 99 people who have my pages on their watch list watching my every move. Tony the Marine (talk) 02:42, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

  If you're really going to keep the tools, consider taking this vacation time to study the policies and guidelines. I'm mean it. You've been an administrator for a long time and maybe stuff had changed too fast. Take some real good time to get updated not only with WP:CANVAS and WP:BLOCK (where your actions had recently been questioned), but also WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, WP:W2W and of course WP:NFCC (even if you don't plan to enforce image policy, you plan to upload and use files).

  Take this advice sincerely. This is not random list of polices. But the ones I believe would improve the most the article you write. --damiens.rf 15:37, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• Advice well taken, not a bad idea to check into all the updates. Tony the Marine (talk) 19:40, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

ScottyBerg

Scotty, I would like to propose that we leave our hostilities and diferences behind. I mean, we are both New Yorkers and as such we can get a little hot-headed. I think that it would be in the best interest of Wikipedia, a project which we both enjoy working at. We at times have offended each other and on my behalf I would like to apologize. In regard to the "Wall of Dishonor", a joke of bad taste, the "S" was not meant for you, this I swear. So, what do you say, truce? Tony the Marine (talk) 02:09, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Are you saying that Scotty was being "hot-headed"? If so, can you please tell us what Scotty did that was "hot-headed"? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:18, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• • Look this a peace offing directed at Scotty and is not intended to start an arguement. We New Yorkers are a little hot-headed is just a saying that's all. Tony the Marine (talk) 02:29, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Understood and appreciated. Tony, a tombstone with my initial on it is not the worst insult I have received in my life, and I don't take it, or anything you've done, personally, so I don't think a "truce" is necessary. Apart from that, which I didn't appreciate but hold no grudge concerning, you've never done anything to me personally. You surely also know that we don't generally edit in the same areas, except in situations where I feel policy has been disregarded (OR, COI, etc.) I do regret that you have indeed taken some things I've done personally, such as my nominating for deletion the article about you, and I urge you to put that behind you.

My concern about you as an administrator is not personal but concerns your unwillingness over a long period of time to abide by and apply site policies. I was, for instance, baffled that you insisted that you could discern a person's ancestry by his or her name when it had just been established (in the list discussion) that doing so violates OR and possibly BLP. Thus I had to file a second content RfC on the same basic issue. My concern is compounded by your view that you have only made "mistakes," a term that implies a lesser degree of difficulty than has been encountered. I must tell you that I haven't seen sufficient understanding of the gravity of your misjudgments. I do not understand, for instance, how you could possibly use your tools in a content dispute. Your viewing that content dispute as "vandalism" only compounds my worries.

I appreciate your offer to not use your tools for a year, but I think that you should seriously consider giving up your tools, preferably for good but certainly at least for the year you propose. You have no need of them, and frankly you have demonstrated you should not have them. I apologize for my bluntness, but that is my opinion. I think that article writing and administration are two not necessarily complimentary disciplines. It is the same in RL. In RL I have tried managing, and I am not good at it. Administrating at Wikipedia is a burden that does not interest me. If I had it, and I was found wanting, I would want to be rid of it. I strongly recommend that you rid yourself of this unnecessary burden. Thanks for your note, and I do appreciate your conciliatory tone. Respectfully, ScottyBerg (talk) 02:42, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

May I make another point if you don't mind? You can delete this if you feel it's out of line, as it does not really concern you. In my eighteen or so months at Wikipedia I have seen many instances in which administrators have abused their position. Ordinary editors like myself have no recourse in such situations. The administrator noticeboards are not friendly places, not welcoming to editors with grievances against administrators. Or they can turn like vipers into kangaroo courts of the administrators involved. There is no easy non-drama mechanism to remove an administrator who should not have his tools, whether due to misbehavior, COI, or sheer incompetence.

The result is that problems with administrators fester. Things escalate. Often they culminate in enormous battles that waste the time of all concerned and cause stress. If there was a simple mechanism for removal of administrators, it would be better for all concerned but especially the administrator who needs to give up his tools for his own benefit.

That underlines my belief that administrators in general (not just you) need not to view their tools as some gift to which to cling. It underlines somewhat why my position on your tools may seem hard to you. It is a burden that they need to unload when it becomes obvious that that having it creates more of a burden than not having it. It is not a gift but a curse for some administrators because of the structural issue that makes all administrators, worthy and not, super-editors for life without accountability or exposure to consequences.

Anyway, so ends my soapboxing. If I've abused my hospitality please feel free to delete. ScottyBerg (talk) 03:15, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• • Thank you for your advice and thoughts. I want to think about the situation and not rush into anything that I may regret in the future. You know how it is when you rush into things without thinking, the end result is not usually good. I know about that. On the lighter side, I have a question for you. The main objective of the articles which I have created is to educate people, especially Puerto Ricans, about Puerto Rico. My question is, from your perspective, did I accomplish that with the "Irish immigration to Puerto Rico"?, What I mean, did you know about the strong Irish influence in Puerto Rico, before reading the article. Thank you for any insight. (By the way, I did apologize to User: Varleem). Tony the Marine (talk) 03:54, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I'm glad you asked. I thought it was an extraordinarily helpful and useful article. I had no idea there even was such a thing as Irish immigration to Puerto Rico. Your mission, to educate people about Puerto Rico, has indeed been fulfilled multiple times in this article and in many others. I mean that sincerely; as you know I don't butter people up. I patrol for vandals, and there is so much utter crap on Wikipedia that it makes me want to gag. If I see another article about a video game, I am going to puke. But you know, that is why we have to be scrupulous. The best articles need to adhere strictly to policies because we have only each other to correct ourselves. We have no superiors, no editors. We only have policies, and they really aren't bad, considering the uneven quality of editors.

Sometimes, when we edit articles, maybe most of the time, editors do not comment on whether an article is good or not. We just correct policy issues or errors and sometimes we get into fights over it. Rarely do we sit back and appreciate whether an article in informative. That can get lost in the shuffle. In this case I agreed that there should be no list in the article and that the photos didn't belong there, but you didn't see me slapping tags on the article as I felt it was very good. When I think an article sucks, I am never afraid to say so but perhaps I need to be less grudging with praise.

So yes, the article is excellent. It is probably among the top 1% of articles on Wikipedia. I would implore you to focus on what you do best, which is carrying out that mission. Leave the bureaucracy to the bureaucrats and managers. Please. ScottyBerg (talk) 04:04, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

RE: Long time

I couldn't find your "email user" function. What's up? S.G.^(GH) _ping! 15:04, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Question about Oscar Garcia Rivera, Sr.

Hi Tony. Reading Oscar Garcia Rivera, Sr., the article says he completed junior high in 1921 and senior high in 1925. Is this correct? Finishing junior high at age 21 and graduate high school at age 25? — ERcheck (talk) 02:04, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

• Thank you for bringing that typo up. Tony the Marine (talk) 04:57, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Check your e-mail please. — ERcheck (talk) 05:05, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

File source problem with File:EarlyPRimmigrants.gif

Marine, the source of this file is a broken link to some website. Do you know of some book or other publication using this picture that could be used to stablish the "life-of-autor-plus-100" copyright status? Thanks. damiens.rf 19:34, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I just found it here. There isn't much information but the date is said to be 1925. --damiens.rf 19:38, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

The image is also found on page 58 in the book "Images of America - Pioneros Puerto Ricans in New York City 1896-1948", Bilingual Edition with a caption that states "Liga Puertorriquena e Hispana, 1922, Brooklyn section. The liga was an umbrella organization crated in 1922 to unite dozens of Puerto Rican clubs and organizations throughout New York. The liga promoted social and cultural activiyes(JC)." The book was writen by Feliz V. Matos-Rodriguez and Pedro Juan Hernandez. Publisher: Arcadia Publishing, Charleston, SC; Library of Congress Number 2001088278; ISBN 0=7385-0506-4. Tony the Marine (talk) 20:01, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Please, check your source once more. Does it really says

• "Liga Puertorriquena e Hispana, 1922, Brooklyn section. The liga was an umbrella organization crated in 1922 to..."

or simply

• "Liga Puertorriquena e Hispana, Brooklyn section. The liga was an umbrella organization crated in 1922 to..."?

If the photo is really from 1922, as stated in the first, then, you are right [:* "Liga Puertorriquena e Hispana, 1922, Brooklyn section. The liga was an umbrella organization crated in 1922 to..." or to tag it as PD pre-1923]. Otherwise, we would not have an immediate reason to believe it is PD. --damiens.rf 20:34, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• Checked and it states "Liga Puertorriquena e Hispana, 1922, Brooklyn section. The liga was an umbrella organization created in 1922 to...". There are at least 4 images of the "liga" on pages 58 and 59 dating form 1922 to 1939. Tony the Marine (talk) 22:55, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Well, that's weird, because Google has scanned this book and While the picture can indeed be found exactly at page 58 as you stated, the caption does not includes the year 1922 as you say. In fact, the year 1922 is exactly the one needed to establish beyond doubt that the image is really in the public domain. --damiens.rf 03:02, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, it is weird. It may be a different edition and 1922 may have been omitted or removed. As you may have noticed, there are four different images with different dates (page 58 and 59) as I told you before. Since the date does not appear on google books, then let's revert the information as you had it before I made the edit. I would be fine either way. Tony the Marine (talk) 03:47, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Guayabera

Hola amigo. Since there is, I see, only a degree of separation between you and the Guayabera shirt article, would you consider coming over to the article and see if Puerto Rico has been represented rightly in the article? I've done a lot of work to this as a Mexican and historian - but I see you are the Puerto Rican expert. I know almost nothing about it.75.21.96.66 (talk) 21:32, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

• To tell you the truth, I think you did an excellent job with the article. When I lived in Puerto Rico, we used two different styles of Guayabera, the long sleeve and the short sleeve. The long sleeve one was used in formal occasions while the short sleeve was for your everyday use. ^The main distributor of elegant Guayabera was a store called "Club Man". At first I thought the shirt was a Puerto Rican thing, but I was later told that they were originated in Cuba anfd that the Cubans introduced them to the island. However, I see that Mexico also has its claim on the design, so who knows? Tony the Marine (talk) 01:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Revision to Rafael Carrion, Sr.

I am the granddaughter of Rafael Carrion, Sr. The changes were made at the request of my father Jose L. carrion, Sr., Don Rafa's ( as he was called), son. If you require proof, I will get it but it is common knowledge that he was NOT born into a wealthy family. I will search for records if necessary but, he had 8 children, 34 grandchildren and I'm sure we can gather proof. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vmarxuach (talk • contribs) 10:17, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Rafael Carrion, Sr.

I am curious to know where you got the information that my grandfather was born into a wealthy family and about his education? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vmarxuach (talk • contribs) 10:41, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Rafael Carrion, Sr.

I am the granddaughter of Rafael Carrion, Sr. The changes were made at the request of my father Jose L. carrion, Sr., Don Rafa's ( as he was called), son. If you require proof, I will get it but it is common knowledge that he was NOT born into a wealthy family. I will search for records if necessary but, he had 8 children, 34 grandchildren and I'm sure we can gather proof.

I am curious to know where you got the information about my grandfather. There are writings, in his own words about his youth and education. I am waiting for your response.

It is very important to our family that the facts are correct and, yes, he did become a director of Chemical Bank with only an 8th grade education. That is what made him such a great man.Vmarxuach (talk) 14:15, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Ok, you've made 3 posts to this editor's page without even the decency of waiting for a reply. Your personal research will not be of much help, as it's not considered to be a reliable source. Are you able to help find public records or public articles that can help support your statements? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:05, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

• Vmarxuach, believe me, it is great that you are the grand-daughter of such an important person. However, we have no way of confirming that and policy still requires that you provide us with a reliable source. The information about the Carrions being wealthy was once obtained from the "El Nuevo Dia". Did they referrer to the present economic status or past, I don't know since they weren't clear on that and I no longer have a copy of said paper. It would be great if you provided us with evidence, thereby enriching the article. It is our aim to have an article as acurate as possible. Tony the Marine (talk) 18:36, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Marine, be careful with double standards in edits like this. You correctly pointed out that the article shouldn't mention "humble beginnings and only an eighth grade education" without an reliable source, but still reverted it to the also completely unsourced " into one of the island's wealthiest families. There he received his primary and secondary education". What's the rationale for preferring your version of an unsourced story above the other? --damiens.rf 16:05, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

• The version that I reverted the article to was the one which was present when the edits were made and which have stood there since 2009, I don't have any preferrence towards it and it can be removed. As a matter of fact, I am hoping that Vmarxuach provides us with the information that we requested because I have a feeling that, if true, the article will much more interesting and will serve as an inspiration to others as to how a person with only an 8th grade education was able to become the President of the largest Hispanic Bank in the United States. Tony the Marine (talk) 20:09, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I've scoured Google News and the New York Times archive and found very little on Carrion. Not even an obituary, which I imagine is an indication of the gaps in Times coverage in the 1960s. ScottyBerg (talk) 19:24, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Guayabera

Hola Amigo. Many thanks for the feedback post on the article. I do appreciate it very much. If you think Puerto Rico appears OK in there, I'm happy. Aside from a minor problem from a mysterious "maggot", the article is pretty good. Gracias. Libertad para Puerto Rico!!75.21.155.189 (talk) 18:13, 25 July 2011 (UTC)---sorry, by the way I am IP 75.21.96.66. They changed the IP on me again ....

Rafael Carrion, Sr.

Thank you for wanting to be accurate about this.

There is a book by Guillermo A. Baralt called Tradicion de Futuro. In that book, it tells my grandfather's story. I believe that el Nuevo Dia might have been talking about my uncle and not my grandfather.

My grandfather Rafael Carrion Sr, was born Rafael Carrion Pacheco, my uncle Rafael Carrion, Jr, was born Rafael Carrion Ruiz (he was better known as Papi Carrion. There are still 4 of Don Rafa's (as he was known) children. There were 8 and 4 have passed away. My dad, Jose Luis Carrion Ruiz was the 5th child. www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=inauthor:%22Guillermo+A.+Baralt%22 This is the link to the book. It is the 3rd one listed.

I don't know how to attach a page to this site but if you give me your email, I can send you copies of some of the pages. Vmarxuach (talk) 23:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

• Thank you, the information will be posted and the source will be cited. Tony the Marine (talk) 07:21, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Greetings!

Hi Tony - just dropped by to say Hi - Brookie :) - he's in the building somewhere! ^(Whisper...) 11:02, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Chin up Tony and as Winston Churchill said, "Keep buggering on"! Brookie :) - he's in the building somewhere! ^(Whisper...) 09:12, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

A Medalla Light for you!

Sup Tony! I can see from your talk page that you have a couple of WikiHounds on your back! Boy are they infested with Ticks! Here is a Medalla Light to help you ignore them! Cuidate. QuAzGaA 19:47, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

• Thank you for the beer, I really needed it. I'm glad to see you around. A lot of the people that you mention are good-faithed editors whom I have been unforunate to bump heads with because of misunderstandings. My main objective has always been to share my knowledge with others and to educate people through Wikipedia. I have always said that life is a continuous learning process and that the day that we stop learning then it is because we are no longer alive. I have made mistakes in Wikipedia, because I am not perfect and I believe that no one is, but I have learned from my mistakes and I have also learned from a lot of people in Wikipedia. I have been called a lot of names here, such as a "Killer", but I have also the pleasure of having an important political figure tell me that I have taught Puerto Ricans what a hundred professors have not. God bless you. I am not feeling well and I am not as active as I once was, all that I ask is to be left alone so that I may continue working for the good of our people. Tony the Marine (talk) 23:43, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Nedi Rivera

Hello, Marine 69-71. You have new messages at DBD's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Hello, Marine 69-71. You have new messages at Atama's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Hola

Hola Tony, I hope you are feeling better. I see that you have been busy with the several wikistalkers. I hope you can get back to editing and creating articles instead of dealing with so much nonsense. Take care, --Jmundo (talk) 15:32, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

• I think the issue is that you are rare editor in Wikipedia because you are big content creator. One of the reason Im not active here is the drama that some editors bring to the project. The Wikihounding is sick, you can't tell these editors are interested in your work, they dont add a dime of productivity to Wikipedia, they are little children with a computer and not much to do in real life. But you keep strong, you contributions to the history of Puerto Rico are invaluable. take care mi hermano, --Jmundo (talk) 16:05, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Use of Admin Tools

Marine, please take this message lightheartedly.

Since you're under an oath no to use your admin tools for a year in order to avoid having them removed from you due to misuse, it's not appropriate for you to demand your son to protect a page for you. This amounts to meat-puppetry.

Whenever someone asks you to do some admin work - or when you just believe for yourself that some admin work must be done - the right thing to do, imho, is to neutrally repost the message to WP:AN, so that some other admins decide how to act on the request.

There's no point in having you not to use your tools when you can just post "Please place the article under protection, thank you" to your son's talk page and have him to do so just four minutes later.

This way the project is still under the menace of your poor judgments. In this case, for instance, you asked for a full protection in an article that was being vandalized by just one anonymous ip address. This isn't much far from the occasion where you teamed with your son to wrongly protect the article about Irish Immigration to Puerto Rico - the very mistake that started the whole drama that lead to Jimbo Wales suggesting you to give up the tools.

I reinforce my warning from the last time, when I asked you if these tools aren't bring you more problems than solving... --damiens.rf 18:55, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Eh, saying "Please place the article under protection, thank you" is pretty far from a demand. ;) But otherwise I concur, for the most part. Tony, you asked me to keep an eye on you, and I have, and so I'm stepping in to suggest this was inappropriate, not flat-out wrong or even close to sanctionable, but inappropriate, if for no other reason than because the request was made of your son. It's not at all meat-puppetry since the message was done on-wiki (I'm sure you could have contact with your son outside of the project if you chose) and it was just a request. But for conflict of interest reasons it's best not to request admin actions from your son.

I will say that your decision to not use the tools yourself was definitely a good one. WP:RFPP would probably be the best place to make such requests, after all that's why that page exists. But since it's a single IP causing the issue, that protection probably would have been denied, because we'd be preventing any other anonymous or new editor from being able to contribute for the sake of stopping a single person, when a block would have the same benefit without hindering other editors. Another consideration is that if the IP is being this disruptive already, that disruption might not be stopped with semi-protection; the editor might instead move the disruption to Death of Caylee Anthony or elsewhere. So a request for semi-protection, while well-intentioned, might not be the best decision.

I see that the IP has been blocked for 24 hours so hopefully that settles the issue. -- Atama頭 17:53, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

• I think Marine has shown a great deal of restraint dealing with the issue. The real problem here is the wikihounding and harrasment agaisnt Marine that doesnt seem to stop. This has been proven before and one of the users damiens.rf has been blocked before for wikihouding Tony 1. There's a proven history of harrasment agaisnt Tony by certain users that should be address by the community. --Jmundo (talk) 20:49, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Atama, I agree then that WP:RFPP will be the best way to go. What my friend Damiens.rf, failed to mention is that, since my self-imposed restrictions, in the past I have asked you and another admin to look into situations which may require the help or advice of an admin. I didn't think that asking my son to look into the request would create such an uproar from Damiens, since I was only passing on a request and I have no interst, what-so-ever, in the article nor it's subject (Check the articles history), but I was wrong. I should have known, after all Damiens, whom is a good- faithed person, has in the past and is in the present constently watching my every move. Therefore, WP:RFPP will be the way to go. Thank you once more for your advice. Tony the Marine (talk) 20:57, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

While there may be a TINY SCRATCH of truth in some of what Damiens wrote, the fact is there is considerably more insencerity and hypocrisy twisted in it than truth. I would give Damiens this bit of advise: ASSUME GOOD FAITH. I can attest that I (still a newbie at WP) once asked Tony to do an admin job for me and, he did what I later discovered was the right thing and directed me to post at the appropriate forum. It is no secret that Damiens has gotten into serious trouble at Wikipedia before, not once but several times. And it hasn't been because he is a rule and policy follower and a fair player within the community of WP editors. His message above reflects on his propensity to feed on those editors who, like Tony, he perceives as easy targets. I feel sorry for the future of the English WP if Damiens was allowed to have the rights Tony has possessed for years. This event is nothing less that a reflection of Damiens jealousy of Tony's high quality editorial work at the encyclopedia and the respect Tony has garnished not from a few but from hundreds of Wikipedians from all walks of life. My name is Mercy11 (talk) 16:11, 15 August 2011 (UTC), and I approve this message.

• These attacks on Damiens are unwarranted. Marine made a serious error in judgment, Damiens brought it to his attention and it was addressed. There is no problem in this. Marine has voluntarily relinquished use of his tools because of a pattern of errors such as this. His actions warrant scrutiny. If editors scrutinizing his behavior in good faith are to be attacked in this fashion, it calls into question whether voluntary relinquishment of tools is sufficient to address this situation. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:44, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
  • They are not unwarranted. While we can argue if the actual behavior of Marine warrants scrutiny or not - and this is a valid point - misbehavior, stalking, uncivility, and a general failure to assume good faith are not the way to address any shortcomings or concerns on Marine. Your point on the need for scrutiny is well taken, but this is also true of those who presume to do Damien's behavior is as bad, or worse, than Marine's because he complete obviates the need for constructive dispute resolution, including mediation etc. He forums shops without the decency of informing Marine of his actions, edits controversially in the Puerto Rico topic area without consideration to the WikiProject, and otherwise engages in disruptive behavior that makes it hard to assume good faith. A wiser editor seeking dispute resolution in good faith doesn't behave like Damiens does, he can trust the community - being made aware of the issues via noticeboards and RFCs and etc - to do the right thing. The multi-year campaign against Marine that Damien's has engaged on is extremely awful, in particular taking into consideration that whatever errors or problems by Marine are often swiftly resolved - I have met few admins in wikipedia with the willingness to reverse his admin actions than Marine. Yes Marine can be a pain in the butt to debate with, but so are a shitload of admins, including some in the ArbCom, and yet we do not encourage stalking behavior against them, as you are encouraging Damiens to do.

If Marine were a vandal or an otherwise unproductive contributor, we might take a different position, but he has been a proficient and productive contributor to the WikiProject, has GAs and FAs, and has been an admin for a looooooong time. These things are not excuses to misbehave, but it does mean that when approaching problems, these things shouldn't be ignored. Scotty, how would you feel if the same editor subjected you to a microscope of every action you did, forum shopped without telling you behind your back, constantly misrepresented your actions in said shopping, and in general behaved without a shred of human decency? You would feel awful, I bet. That is the case here, and for you to pass judgement without careful consideration of the context is an extremely careless failure to assume good faith, and a dangerous invitation to allow misbehavior and WP:POINT actions if they are felt to be part of holding admins accountable. As a long-standing supporter of accountability for admins, I can tell you that is an awful attitude: misbehavior cannot be understood as a reason to misbehave yourself. We often look the other way when people are abusive to vandals and SPA etc, but here we have an example of why we shouldn't - whatever the shortcomings Marine has or doesn't have, he is not a vandal or an SPA, and is a member in good standing in the community. He should be afforded the decency, and the assumption of good faith, that all and any members in good standing in the community should get. Damiens doesn't and even when approached about it, he claims things are "ok", when clearly they are not. --Cerejota (talk) 19:20, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Then Marine, as the allegedly afflicted party, would need to commence DR against him, though I suspect that WP:BOOMERANG may apply. Attacking him here, when he raises a reasonable question about Marine, is not the way to go. ScottyBerg (talk) 19:35, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

That's a lot of accusations and no diff for such a highly visible page. --damiens.rf 20:05, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

You can commence a WQA, and vice versa. I don't think further discussion here is productive. You raised an issue and it was addressed. If someone feels your behavior was wrong, they can dig up diffs and make their point in the correct forum. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:15, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Hello, Marine 69-71. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

If it was not clear.--Cerejota (talk) 14:56, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Sharing

Yesterday I "closed" my "workshops" where I create my articles and removed the content of the material that I was working on. I felt that I could no longer concentrate on creating and contributing articles to Wikipedia after everything that has been going on which has contributed to the disruption of my thoughts and has led me to question if my work here is worth it. However, today I received the following message from a member of the El Salvadorean Legislature and which will later be translated into English:

"Hola, mi nombre es Lorena Varela, salvadoreña trabajo en la Asamblea Legislativa de mi país, colaborando con la Comisión de Salud. He leído lo que usted hace en su país, que es conservar y trasladar sus raíces a las nuevas generaciones de descendencia boricua fuera de sus fronteras."

"Me parece una labor muy ejemplificante para los latinos que algunas veces viviendo fuera de nuestros países, se olvidan de donde vienen y para donde van, porque al perder nuestras identidades perdemos el rumbo de nuestras vidas; sí tenemos que aprovechar las oportunidades que se nos dan en otros lugares pero jamás olvidar nuestro orígenes."

"Le deseo toda clase de bendiciones en su labor." Atentamente, Honorable Lorena Varela

• English Translation:

"Hello, my name is Lorraine Varela, a Salvadorian member of the Legislative Assembly of my country, collaborating with the Health Commission. I have read what you do in your country, which is to conserve and to provide knowledge to the new generations of the people of Puerto Rican descent outside their borders."

"It seems to me that you do a very ejemplificante work for Latinos who sometimes living outside our countries, forget where they come from and where they are, because if we lose our identities we lose the direction of our lives; Yes, we must seize the opportunities that we are given in other places but we must never forget our origins."

"I wish you all sorts of blessings in your work." Sincerely, the Honorable Lorena Varela

What this tells me is that I am accomplishing my goals to educate others with my work in Wikipedia and that my work has transsended the boundries of the US and Puerto Rico. Even though I have been discouraged to continue making contributions to the project, I wanted to share this with all of you because I want everyone to know that your positive contributions in Wikipedia are appreciated by many and that you can make a difference to a lot of people. Tony the Marine (talk) 03:33, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Tony, always know that the article portion of your work on Wikipedia has never been questioned (that I know of), and is 110% appreciated. It is well-known that often the admin bit detracts from the article-improvement bit. I think that the suggestion that that you focus 100% on what you do well still is the best idea. Don't be discouraged! (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:54, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Tony, based on my vestigial knowledge of Spanish, that was an impressive testimonial for your work. Congratulations on that unexpected recognition, and please do continue. --Orlady (talk) 17:45, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

To be fair, I don't find the recognition that unexpected, given Tony's past accomplishments. He's done a lot of good on Wikipedia, especially for Puerto Rican topics. -- Atama頭 16:19, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Protection at List of Puerto Rican military personnel

Hi there. I unprotected this article following a request at WP:RPP, mainly because in your protection you said temp protection, but gave it full. As it's been over a year, and you're effectively not an admin at the moment, I unprotected. I probably should have asked first, so I'll ask retrospectively; if you think there's some background I should know that wasn't obvious in the history, let me know and I'll re-evaluate. Apologies if I've put your nose out of joint. Regards, GedUK  06:10, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

• All is fine. Tony the Marine (talk) 07:29, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. GedUK  07:33, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

RE: Thank you

You are welcome. However, it is not a matter of being a friend or being there for you; it's a matter of what's my concept of good work (as you correctly identified), justice, fairness, righteousness. In any organization, good work is ALWAYS the result of great teamwork by ALL the parties and the basis for great teamwork is ALWAYS trust. Never mind all the talk about good-faith behavior at Wikipedia: it is the policy most often broken and too leniently dealt with. I, like you, have learned that some contributors cannot be trusted: after repeated opportunities, they cannot forget, they continue to lack humbleness, their jealousy and resentment consumes them, and they still return to stab you on your back at the least expected moment. But courage boy!: Jesus, Buddah, Muhammad, and Mother Teresa all had it worse! I was away for most of the last 3 weeks with little/no access to a computer, and will be catching up with events over the next few days. Hey, have you been to Grand Canyon? Regards, Mercy11 (talk) 18:40, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Arango

Hey, Tony, did you see that Jimbo Wales himself has started editing former Sen. Arango's article? Wow, I'd never run across his participation in editing articles. That edit war must really be drawing attention for him to get involved.Pr4ever (talk) 01:20, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Hola Tony

Espero que estes bien. Read you are interested in writing about Puerto Ricans in the medical field. Well I have been willing to write an article about Dr. Mario Ruben García Palmieri. He was Secretary of Health, considered the first Puerto Rican cardiologist, among other things. Here http://www.accpr.org/news.htm (article; The first Puerto Rican MACC!!) and here http://www.rcm.upr.edu/rcm/Noticias/84/Dr%20Garc%C3%ADa%20Palmieri.pdf are some article I have found about him. What do you think about collaborating on this one? El Johnson (talk) 13:51, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

You are correct, he was actually the first "primer cardiólogo entrenado en Puerto Rico"".El Johnson (talk) 21:04, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

- I really don't mind if you continue and finish it. I am very busy with work and as you can see I havnt made new articles in a while. Lots of changes in my life in the last 14 months. Finished law school, passed the local and federal bar, started working, got married. So please go ahead and create the article if you wish since I will probably take a very LONG time to do it. I will keep a look out for it and contribute as much as I can. Hope all is well in your life. El Johnson (talk) 18:46, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Gracias Tony, that means a lot! El Johnson (talk) 19:14, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• http://books.google.com.pr/books?id=Wp3FPlFChAsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Mario+R.+Garc%C3%ADa+Palmieri&hl=es-419&ei=dKRzTq3vD87PgAfOtcXsDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Mario%20R.%20Garc%C3%ADa%20Palmieri&f=false

• http://books.google.com.pr/books?id=IXq-SgAACAAJ&dq=inauthor:%22Mario+R.+Garcia+Palmieri%22&hl=en&ei=CKVzTpnpBYeRgQeJx6WBDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ

• http://www.bookfinder.com/dir/i/Historia_Grafica_De_La_Sociedad_Interamericana_De_Cardiologia_1944-1999/0965010805/

Its great! I have a picture but my scanner isn't working, I will see if I can get it up some time this week, thanks again!El Johnson (talk) 19:38, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Roberto Arango

Someone on the talk page of Roberto Arango (a member of the Senate of Puerto Rico) wondered why we didn't have a birth date for the Senator. I thought that if anyone knew where to look for that information, it would be you. Gamaliel (talk) 18:35, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

puertorican infantry men in1900-1906

Hi Tony, I love your informative page is really great to read PR history I am desperate to know the names of all the soldiers & marines serving in the early 1900 looking for ancestor Tony, everything I find has only half of the information. Also do you have any information on the former marines that were serving in the Dominican Republic and decided to make DR their home the North coast of the DR has many Puertorican ancestors,but they have no information any info welcome. Thank you so much, Francia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.1.164.143 (talk) 09:33, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

• Hello Francia, yours is a good, but unfortunately an almost impossible request to comply for various reasons:.

• Most of the military arhives which were kept in Kansas City of the men who served during and prior to the so-called "Banana Wars" were destroyed in a fire.

• At the time the War Department did not keep statistics in regard to the ethnicity of its members. This did nopt happen until after WW II. Puerto Ricans who resided in the US were assigned to regular mailitary units in accordance to their race. The only stats in regard to Puerto Ricans at the time was of those who belonged to the Porto Rico Regiment which later changed its name to the 65 Infantry.

• During my research, I received a complete rooster of all the people from New York who served in WWI. I wanted to find out how many were Puerto Ricans, however it was an impossible task since, there are many Puerto Ricans with non-Hispanic surnames and many people with Hispanic surnames who were not Puerto Ricans.

I am sorry that I could not be of help. Tony the Marine (talk) 20:19, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Marine 69-71. You have new messages at Cerejota's talk page.
Message added 21:19, 10 September 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Cerejota ^{If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon.} 21:19, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Juan J. Rodriguez-Chavez

http://militarytimes.com/citations-medals-awards/recipient.php?recipientid=34962

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2011/06/marine-navy-cross-ganjgal-061011w/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.138.130.2 (talk) 15:31, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• Thank you for your imput. So many Hispanic heroes, not only in the military, but in all kinds of fileds. Makes me proud to be a Hispanic. Tony the Marine (talk) 15:58, 16 September 2011 (UTC)