MeSoStupid

I ask you to consider WP:BRD as a possible discussion point. I see no evidence presented that faction (literature) is used.

For what it's worth, also consider WP:3RR, as you've made the same change 4 times in one article. The first change may not count as a revert, but.... — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:16, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

---

		Civility Award
		Such a new contributor, so much wikidrama. Yet in a difficult situation, the civility you've shown toward those who've wronged you has been impeccable. Kudos to you. Adrian J. Hunter(talk•contribs) 13:35, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Catholic Conspiracy Theories

Hello MeSoStupid, you might want to read Sandra Miesel's article Swinging at Windmills: The Catholic Conspiracy Theories by Sandra Miesel if only for the following passage:

“ the notion that the Church, particularly the Italian Church, is packed with secret Masons lives on. Why, it was plotted out more than 150 years ago in The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita and similar documents outlining well-laid plans to pervert the Church and elect a Masonic pope. This fantasy was promoted by Malachi Martin (who claimed there were Satanists in on it, too) and preached by ex-Dominican John O'Connor (who thinks only one or two cardinals are really Catholic). ”

--Loremaster (talk) 21:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Why are you showing this to me?

That's one person's opinion. The current pope of the Catholic Church re-affirmed the anti-Masonic policies a few decades ago after reconsideration, some of the information under seal so we don't even know the full reasons. Catholics aren't allowed to be Freemasons, and aren't allowed to receive Communion, and they have their reasons for this. This is official policy, and those not abiding by this policy are deemed heretics, and probably anathema since they aren't allowed to receive Communion. So this person's views are not Catholic. If you check the history, it wasn't all that long ago that if a Catholic joined Freemasonry they were subject to automatic excommunication. Yet even in modern times, an anti-Masonic policy remains because of information that they in part keep classified. I suspect the information in this book partly reveals the nature of what that information might be about, Martin hinting at an elite inner fraternity of what he calls "master engineers" where the rest are in the dark about it, according to him. That's not really something that can be proved or disproved. Also, in that above quotation that you just put on my page, it notes that Malachi Martin claimed that "Satanists were in on it, too". Well, you know what? It's certainly not just Martin saying that. Pope Benedict's own Chief Exorcist, Fr. Amorth said that "legions of demons" (Satanists) have recently installed themselves in the Vatican. This interview was in 30 Days Magazine, and if you search for it, you can find it online.

You seem to be engaging in point-of-view pushing, and selectively deeming which conspiracy theories as to the supposed New World Order Conspiracy are worthy based on your own point of view, and those that aren't. Apparently theories by well-known Catholic scholars as to the New World Order Conspiracy are ridiculous, but others are just fine. That's not your job as an editor. These are fringe theories to begin with. There is no definitive right and wrong that can be shown, regardless of what in truth is right and wrong. If there was, they wouldn't be called theories. What makes you think I even adopt Martin's theories or even that I'm Catholic, for that matter? Did you ever think that maybe I'm just educated and read books a lot? In addition, what makes you think I even believe in a New World Order Conspiracy? How do you know I'm not a Freemason myself and maybe that's the reason I read it? All I did, mind you, was add a simple book title to a reading list, something that very few visitors to the page will even pay attention to. Let me give you an analogy. A lot of people are fascinated by reports of UFO's and read books and watch television specials on them because they find it intriguing. Yet if you polled a lot of these people, many of them would say they don't believe in UFO's. Do you only read about things you believe in, or what? Do you only consider evidence that fits your preconceived ideologies? Why else would you have selectively pulled out negative reviews when there are also positive ones of these books and this person? If so, that's not particularly mature or demonstrative of wisdom.

I'm not pushing for any agenda. That book was recommended to me by someone not all that long ago as a good read, and I read it and followed up with related material. I was fascinated by the evidence of controversy Martin's book stirred, and some of the claims within, particularly since he worked in the Vatican side by side with some of the individuals he accuses of being aligned with dark forces in his book. It managed to stir enough emotion that a smear campaign was launched against him as soon as he died, after which much of the accusations as to his personal life were shown to be manufactured. He certainly pissed people off somewhere with this stuff. I think this book is notable, and I went ahead and tried to add it to two book lists. You didn't even know what this book was at first. You first said it had nothing to do with New World Order Conspiracy at all, and then you tried to cover this up in a way that I found rather humorous. And then you point out that is wasn't a "best seller". And now you're "lecturing" to me about it when you haven't even read it for crying out loud, and you seemingly have no respect for alternative points of view, and seem to assume that you automatically know better than others. I frankly don't care if the book is there or not. I also wouldn't have posted an entry on the talk page at all after its removal had it not been removed for quote, "vandalism" by administrator Arthur Rubin, which left me upset. Although I have a mild to moderate interest in the subject area and might have been interested at some point in doing some work on the article, it is by no means something that would have been a priority for me or something I felt like I was on a special mission to complete.

And also I pointed out that there is a problem with the tone and subjective nature of the article as a whole. As just one example, one line reads, "It also inflamed conspiracy theorists,[66] who misinterpret the “eye and pyramid” as the Masonic symbol of the Illuminati, an 18th-century secret society they wrongly believe continues to exist and is plotting on behalf of a New World Order." It's not the job of the editors to decide who is "misinterpreting" and who isn't. It's not encyclopedic to state that such people "wrongly believe" something. That's not how to go about that.

Had I never been abused by Rubin who bullied me and used his status and influence over other administrators to keep himself from getting into trouble, I likely would have went on to contribute to quite a number of completely unrelated articles and spent my time elsewhere. Although, I do consider myself fairly well-read in the realm of "new world conspiracy theories", because I've found the area intriguing even if bizarre, and have spent some time on it for recreation. But the Rubin stuff has removed whatever interest I originally had in contributing to the wikipedia project. MeSoStupid (talk) 08:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Wait!

MeSoStupid, I've been disappointed in the past when people with far less potential than you have left the project. I've already noted your ability to stay cool when under fire, but I would add based on the above that you also have excellent writing skills — both qualities Wikipedia is in chronic need of. You also seem to have a remarkable intuition about the best way to write an encyclopedia; heck, if the second-to-last paragraph above just contained a link to WP:NPOV I'd have believed it to have been written by an awesome Wikipedian. I honestly think your early run-in with Rubin was just terribly bad luck on your part (any you're not the first person to be, shall we say, "disappointed" with his behaviour). So please, take a wikibreak for a few days, start a new account, do whatever it takes to move on... But please stay! Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 11:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

german wikipedia

hey! they found our contribution to the ECT article in german wikipedia to be not helpful... [1] is there a good reason that they dont trust for example sackeim (anymore)? thx. bye. --Homer Landskirty (talk) 13:48, 27 November 2009 (UTC)