User talk:Metropolitan90/Archive 23

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WikiProject Breakfast

Hello, Metropolitan90. You have new messages at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Breakfast#Are_we_ready_to_Flow_here.3F_News_and_a_request_for_confirmation.
Message added Ottawahitech (talk) 16:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

José Cordero Sánchez

Hi Metropolitan.

I reverted two Venezuelan IP edits to restore the removed template message, as the underlying problem had not been delt with. I am aware that this reversion restores your prod, which technically is against the letter of DEPROD.

I have asked article creator on their talk page to clarify why subject's full name is Jose Rafael Cordero Sanchez while the president of Aeropostal is one José Rafael Cordero Urgelles.

José Rafael Cordero Sanchez was deleted under A7 26 June 2013. You can see the deleted article, I can't. José Rafael Cordero Urgelles was added to Aeropostal Alas de Venezuela 25 August 2013.^[Diff] When one and the same user now recreates first José Cordero Sánchez and then concurrently José Rafael Cordero Sanchez my instinct tells me that we could have a José Rafael Cordero Sanchez taking advantage of José Rafael Cordero Urgelles getting noticed. I can't find sources that gives me details on the latter, e.g. DOB, but that short bio we get in José Cordero Sánchez does not in my mind support the idea that a 23 year-old was qualified to become president of an aviation company. Your thoughts?

They have a similar case on Spanish Wikipedia with es:José Ráfael Cordero and es:José Ráfael Cordero Sanchez. I will notify an admin there. Best, Sam Sailor ^Sing 13:54, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

• I can confirm that the version of José Rafael Cordero Sanchez deleted in June 2013 was about a person born December 14, 1990 in Barquisimeto, clearly the same person, but that version described him as a model and did not mention him being involved in aviation. The version of José Rafael Cordero Sanchez that I deleted yesterday was substantially identical to José Cordero Sánchez, also describing the person as being born Dec. 14, 1990, but portraying him as the recently appointed president of Aeropostal Alas. The main difference between the recent version of José Rafael Cordero Sanchez and the current version of José Cordero Sánchez is that the latter cites more purported sources. I also am skeptical of the idea that the 23-year-old is president of an airline, especially given that his name doesn't even match that of the airline president as reported in published sources. However, the IP user was entitled to de-PROD José Cordero Sánchez, so I recommend taking the article to WP:AFD instead of PROD. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 14:47, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

I have removed the PROD and will await a reply form article creator before putting it up on AfD. Best, Sam Sailor ^Sing 15:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

The Afd has been speedy closed. When I wrote On Spanish Wikipedia the bio has also been created under the following article titles, which we might want to consider salting as well my intention was to say that we should salt the titles here, not on Spanish Wikipedia, but I admit it is not at all clear from my wording, rather contrary, sorry for that. And your objection to salting the names sans Sanchez is correct, I appreciate learning such thoughtfulness. Best, Sam Sailor ^Sing 19:14, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Socking

I have suggested at AfD that several article titles be salted.

In my remark yesterday I assumed that the sock master was Joserafaelcorderosanchez, as a couple of blocking admins have assumed that (and with good reasons) in the past. Upon closer look it appears that the master, or at least oldest account, is Josercs1. As the contribs of the following SPAs are mostly all now deleted, I would have little less to base an SPI case on than WP:IDENTICAL: they edit one or more of the plethora of JRCS bios. I'll leave it up to you to determine if anything needs to be done here.

Suspected master

• Josercs1 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) (stale)

Suspected sockpuppets

• Aliciofull (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• Apoloo00 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• Carmebsalin20 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) (blocked by Bbb23)
• Demacorsan (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) (blocked by Bbb23)
• Joracorsan (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) (blocked by Yunshui)
• Josecordeross (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) (stale)
• Joserafaelcorderosanchez (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) (blocked by Yunshui)
• Liberpuull (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• Loutt400 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• Maoa1450 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) (blocked by Bbb23)
• Olot012 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) (blocked by Huon)
• Yoggueeto (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

Best, Sam Sailor ^Sing 14:56, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I've deleted the Cordero and the Sanchez articles per G5. I've blocked the two creators of the articles. For the moment, just to be consistent, I'm keeping the same master. I'll have to look into that later. At the moment, I have the worst cold I've had in ages, and my head is mush. As for whether there is a Cordero who is the president of Aeropostal, even assuming there is (and it was added to the airlines article by an IP), it's not the same person described in these articles. These are just trolling garbage. If someone wants to create a real article with real biographical material, reliably sourced, fine, but until then ... Although I did see a few sources (I don't know how reliable they are) about Cordero, this source, which was cited in one of the articles was published in 1969, twenty-one years before Cordero's supposed dob. In any event, the G5 deletion is legitimate based on the history, even if the article were completely legit. When I'm feeling better, I'll come back and look at this again, particularly the list compiled by Sam.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:18, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

@Bbb23: Thank you. The 1969 date on that website must be wrong. I found the full Gaceta Oficial N° 40.223 here, it is dated 7 August 2013, and does mention Jose Rafael Cordero Urgelles as appointed president for Aeropostal Alas de Venezuela. May good health envelop you, spurring a quick recovery. Best, Sam Sailor ^Sing 21:12, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Sam, I'm fairly convinced that Urgelles is the president of Aeropostal and was appointed in August 2013. There are a ton of tiny articles all pointing to the official notice by number. I also found the same .pdf you did, but it's not searchable and it's 64 pages long, so I didn't actually verify that the guy is in there. However, the articles that are created by our lovely and prolific sock are not about that person, even if later versions mention him in that regard. There are so many lies in so many of the different iterations of the article. The few things that seem to be consistent are his dob and his birthplace. He might be this person (cited in one of the articles), which seems more likely, even though the sock could have "borrowed" that persona as well. As for an article about Urgelles, I seriously doubt it would be notable even if it were created legitimately. Other than the brief news of his appointment, I could find almost nothing online about the guy. The only thing that talked a little about him was this article. So, at bottom, you have the president of an airlines that has seven planes in its fleet with no findable articles discussing him. There may, of course, be offline sources, but I'm not about to go looking for them.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:09, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

The part about Cordero Urgelles ("Urgelles" is his matronymic, not his full surname) being appointed president of the company can be found on page 53-54 of the PDF. I don't think we have anywhere enough information to write an article about the airline president, but he might be notable enough for an article to be written about him in the future. The December 31, 1969 date of this source is almost certainly due to a bug such as the one described at http://mentalfloss.com/article/26316/why-does-my-gadget-say-its-december-31-1969 -- not an actual date for the article. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:48, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

If you're referring back to the salting issue, I agree that potentially legitimate articles should not be salted. And to continue my education (thank you), if Urgelles is his mother's name, is Cordero his father's? And how would you refer to him in the body of an article? (I need to go back to bed now. I'm still sick and I'm having trouble sleeping. Sigh.)--Bbb23 (talk) 10:24, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Cordero would be his father's surname, and he would probably be referred to as Cordero in the body of an article. See the second paragraph of Hispanic American naming customs. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 15:03, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) After long break away from the screen Yes, Cordero is his patrilineal surname, cf. Spanish naming customs. We refer to people using the surname most commonly know, e.g. Castro for Fidel Alejandro Castro Ruz. In other cases we use the double surname, e.g. Velasco Ibarra in José María Velasco Ibarra. Or we mix these approaches like in Federico García Lorca. Best, Sam Sailor ^Sing 15:18, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you for the information about Hispanic names. Hopefully, I'll remember. I've changed the tags of all the accounts listed by Sam that were already tagged (I don't tag socks if they are not indeffed) - and a few more not on Sam's list.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:33, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Coda

There is an article I would like to hear your opinions on: José Cordero de Torres. Joserafaelcorderosanchez creates it on the evening of 26 June 2013, it gets tagged A7 and deleted shortly after. A few hours later he creates it using the account Joracorsan. The article has survived an A7, a couple of misplaced BLP-PRODs and an AfD discussion, and I concur with Dusti, the sources are hard (=impossible) to find. Two links are given at the AfD in support for a weak keep, these aren't convincing. The article had two references. I have removed one, a mirror of the corresponding Spanish Wikipedia article. That has been twice speedy deleted, latest on 5 November 2013 as a bulo, a hoax. Left is one reference

• Jose M. G. Cordero (2009-11-15). "Habitantes y Gente de El Puerto de Santa María » 466. FRAY JOSÉ CORDERO DE TORRES. El lego relojero". Gentedelpuerto.com. Retrieved 2014-01-13.

The short article text we have is directly lifted off and translated from the Spanish text in the citation. That is written by one Jose M. G. Cordero. The photo in the cite is by one Francisco Sánchez. However, both Cordero and Sánchez are common names and the article is dated 2009, long before we saw the first attempts by our José to put his article up here (that I know of). You should think that a Google Book search would return hits on the maker of the clock of Giralda, but no. No matter how I tweak the search, I find nothing. So, is it really a hoax as they suspected on Spanish Wikipedia, or is it a more obscure case?

Yes, Bbb23, this person is our man, compare with his personal website or his entry about himself on Glopedia, both links added in one of several hijack attempts of (Previous revision of) José Cordero de Torres. In another hijack attempt he claims to be a "public entertainment personality and socialite ... best known for appearing in videos on youtube", where he has 2 subscribers. Keep his likeness in mind when you do a Google Images Search. This might of course all be a result of him hijacking the de Torres article and those revisions being mirrored, e.g. on Speedydeletion.wikia.

So is José Cordero de Torres a hoax created as another attempt to put his autobio up here? No, it is not only that. Also because the name José Cordero de Torres gets added to the Famous people section in El Puerto de Santa María back in April 2006 by the Spanish IP 213.250.143.131 which I doubt has any connection to our Venezuelan friend. Your guesses are as good if not better than mine, but mine is that we have a young person who is egosurfing, finds a name that is close to his own and uses that as a platform. As he did more cunningly with José Rafael Cordero Urgelles.

If you go back to the single citation we have in the article take a look at the face of the clock, here we have a hint, as the clockmaker per tradition wrote his name there: Fray Joseph Cordero (fray = en: friar). Eureka! And his name does return a few searches also in Goggle books. Take away the fray and search and you get http://campaners.com/php/catedral.php?numer=392 as well as a handfull of 18th and 19th century book results. Joseph obviously = José but why then the de Torres? Because he also made the two gates mentioned? I can't fathom that but to anyone who can explain it I would go Orz...^[Ref] I suggest that the article be moved to Joseph Cordero ... ugh, twice speedy deleted in 2008. What was the contents and history? Did JRCS haunt us back then? --Best, Sam Sailor ^Sing 16:02, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Sam, I've been aware of José Cordero de Torres since not too long after its creation. I can't delete it per G5 because none of the socks had been blocked at the point it was created. I'm not sure why the sock created the article except that the name of the person is similar to his, and he decided it'd be nice to have an article with parts of his name in it. There is a fundamental difference as well between the airline president and this article. The sock did not do the usual his-own-birthdate and his-own-birthplace. I think you need to decide whether a second nomination at AfD will succeed. If not, you can move it to Joseph if you like and leave a redirect behind. As for the Joseph Cordero article deleted in 2008, it's unrelated. It was pure run-of-the-mill crap and had nothing to do with our friend.

@Metropolitan90, please chime in if you're tired of this subject on your talk page.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:12, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

 Done -- Sam Sailor ^Sing 15:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Whim W'Him

Some time back you requested cleanup for Whim W'Him. While the article is still kind of stubby, and I found one sentence that I marked as needing a citation. I believe I've addressed the basic cleanup issues. Could you have a look and either remove the {{Cleanup}} tag you placed or be more specific about cleanup issues you believe remain? Thanks in advance. - 21:33, 2 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmabel (talk • contribs)

• I removed the cleanup tag. If other people think there are specific issues that require cleanup, I'm sure they will address those issues or tag the article accordingly. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 01:39, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Deletion Baltik vairas

Hello, I noticed, that it was deleted page Baltik vairas. Why, what is the reason?Baltik vairas (talk) 21:49, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

• I deleted the page because you were the sole author of the page, but you had blanked it. Wikipedia policy is that if the sole author blanks a page, this can be taken as a deletion request. Since you blanked the page, I assumed that you were trying to delete it. If you didn't want it to be deleted, I can put a copy of the page in your userspace. However, you should be aware of another issue that may come up. Your username is User:Baltik vairas which matches the name of the company that the article was about. Usernames that unambiguously consist of a name of a company, group, institution or product are not allowed by Wikipedia policy because they are considered promotional. The fact that your username is the same as the company name raises a concern that you may have a conflict of interest in writing about the company.

You can resolve these issues by requesting a username change (see Wikipedia:Changing username), but it would probably be more appropriate (since you only have one active edit under your current username) to just register a new username altogether. The new name should not sound like a company name. In addition, if you work for the Baltik Vairas company, you should probably not try to create an article about it, due to the risk of a conflict of interest.

If you have other questions about these issues, let me know and I will try to help you. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 01:55, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

New RfC on Talk:List of African-American Academy Award winners and nominees

I have just posted a new RfC on Talk:List of African-American Academy Award winners and nominees. Given your previous posting of a related RfC, you might want to comment on mine. 99.192.66.175 (talk) 14:34, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Deletion James-J Walsh

hi there - after much debate previously you decided that James-J Walsh should be deleted. I am re-submitting the page as he is now ranked amongst the top 10 influential LGBT people in the UK and is standing for public office this May. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AslanChampion (talk • contribs)

• Thank you for letting me know about the page being re-submitted. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 01:10, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

How would I attribute credit?

CC-BY-SA requires attribution and credit. So Super_Awesome_Katy doesn't do that. How do I add attribution? Ging287 (talk) 16:19, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

• See Template:Wikia content. I added that to the article just before I saw this message from you. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 16:22, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Alright. Thanks. I'm sorry for tagging it as a copyvio, I still don't know all the obscure things on Wikipedia, yet. Won't happen again. ^^ Ging287 (talk) 16:26, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

No problem. By the way, if you see material that appears to have been copied from another wiki, check the other wiki's copyright license (usually found at the bottom of each page at the other wiki), and see if it is one of the acceptable licenses at WP:COMPLIC. The Creative Commons licenses can be complicated. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 16:30, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of Alfred hitchcock avatharippikkunnu for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Alfred hitchcock avatharippikkunnu is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred hitchcock avatharippikkunnu until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. --Bejnar (talk) 16:19, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Was Voltaire wrong about William Penn's 1683 treaty with the Lenape Indians?

Hi! In case you are interested, there is a discussion here about William Penn's 1683 treaty with the Lenape Indians, and specifically whether Voltaire's famous quote ("...a treaty never written, never broken") from his 1764 Dictionnaire philosophique was incorrect. If you have time, your input would be appreciated. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 11:37, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

"WebDrive" Redux?

While updating Comparison of FTP client software and then NetDrive today, it looked like the WebDrive page had gone missing. However, the page history suggests otherwise with 3 intentional deletions since 2005, the last being yours. I pulled up the related thread from your archives, in which it appears that South River was self-promoting. That said, I do remember WebDrive as a bit of pioneer with their "Drive_mapping FTP" software and I'd hate for there to be nothing at all out there about it.

Are there some parameters that would allow the posting of at least a WebDrive stub or start? Jonathan lampe (talk) 04:36, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

• As you saw from that prior thread, the last person to create the article had a conflict of interest. Assuming that you don't have a conflict of interest, I recommend starting the article in your own userspace (at User:Jonathan lampe/WebDrive), getting it into decent shape in terms of references and establishing notability, and then moving it into the mainspace to WebDrive. Based on Wikipedia:Guide to deletion#Can I recreate an article that was deleted in the past?, I don't think you will need to take your new draft to deletion review, nor will you need to run it by me or anything like that. But starting the article in your userspace and then moving it to the mainspace after it is in decent shape will help avoid the chance that the article might be mistaken for an attempt just to re-create the deleted version. Let me know if you have any questions. (I don't have any substantive knowledge of FTP client software, though.) --Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:04, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
  • I'll go the draft route then, maybe pen something later this week. Thanks for the help! Jonathan lampe (talk) 02:40, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
  • FYI - I did as you suggested and moved my userspace work to WebDrive tonight. Jonathan lampe (talk) 05:27, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Request for comment

Hello there, a proposal regarding pre-adminship review has been raised at Village pump by Anna Frodesiak. Your comments here is very much appreciated. Many thanks. Jim Carter through MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 06:46, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Verjamem

Hi! Verjamem is not political party, but a regular society. There was a speculation before EU elections about reforming society into party, but this hasn't happened (yet). Regards, --Klemen Kocjancic (talk) 09:47, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Today it was announced, that party will be formed on 4 June (on Wednesday). Still, you were a bit early. Regards, --Klemen Kocjancic (talk) 15:27, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Request

Greetings, would like to create the page miss multiverse, the pageant was held at the Hard Rock Hotel Punta Cana, The Dominican Republic, The current titleholder is Débora Lyra from Brazil who won the title on 16 November 2013, would you kindly provide steps to procede with no deletion.

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jose Cuello (talk • contribs)

• Hi, I see that you have already created this article at Miss Multiverse. For some reason, I didn't notice this request until June 16, which is why I didn't respond. Sorry about that. If you still need advice, feel free to ask. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:22, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Problem

I am wanting to create an article about a teenage business owner and political commentator, Caiden Cowger, but Wikipedia says that the article was locked from creation. I looked into the reasons why, and to be honest, I think that some of the administrators may have been bias. Here is what I mean. The administrator who locked the page made the smart-aleck remark to the user who went by the name DailyConservatism. The administrator said that DailyConservatism was not going to be able to post any articles because of their political affiliation. In the articles of deletion, they went on to call Cowger stupid, provided a Google search of ("Caiden Cowger" radio) rather than Caiden Cowger, which caused the search engine to bring up nothing; (this I find funny) the administrator then said that Mr. Cowger did not even exist. They also said that Cowger self-published his books, which is deceiving, because Mr. Cowger owns a publishing house in West Virginia under Cowger Nation Media, which is a WV multimedia company. Here is the website: corporate.cowgernetwork.com.

Personally, I am moderate. I base my opinions upon facts, and am loyal to information, not a specific ideology, but what they did seemed extremely wrong to me. I have researched this teenager, and he very popular politically in his state. He has a radio show based in Buckhannon, West Virginia, has interviewed presidential/senatorial candidates, is a syndicated columnist, a syndicated radio host, owns a television network, and even a newspaper. He has also made national headlines. I do not understand what the problem is here, but if it would be possible, I would love to write a page about him and his work.

Regardless of his beliefs, I think it is extraordinary that a teenager is that involved in business and politics. WikiMaster1998

• Looking at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Caiden Cowger, I would note that the participants in that discussion were not necessarily administrators. Only Dravecky (who didn't vote), Lankiveil, and JohnCD (who only closed the discussion as a deletion) are admins; the others aren't. DailyConservatism was not blocked from posting articles because of their political affiliation; in fact, they have never been blocked. I don't see why a Google search of ("Caiden Cowger" radio) instead of "Caiden Cowger" would be a problem, given that Cowger's main media activity appears to be radio, although he does other things as well -- any article about him would probably mention his radio activity. I also don't see what is deceiving about saying that someone who publishes his own books through a company owned by himself is self-publishing his books. I have not found much coverage of Cowger beyond (a) references on web sites affiliated with him or which broadcast his show and (b) negative coverage of comments he made two years ago. But if you think there are enough independent reliable sources to write a proper article about him, I would recommend drafting it at User:WikiMaster1998/Caiden Cowger including the sources. If you do that, you can then take the draft article to Wikipedia:Deletion review to request removal of the lock, or you can ask me (or any other editor willing to help) and I can help you take the draft to deletion review for consideration. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:39, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

The deletion of Alpha Chi Theta

Hello, You deleted the page Alpha Chi Theta becuase (A7: Article about a group or club, which does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject). We are a newer organization and now have enough information (like a website and facebook) to create an accepted Wikipedia article. Should start a completely new article or is possible to use the old one? Also what can we do to avoid the same issue as before. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pascalelizabeth (talk • contribs)

• At the time the article was deleted, it was only a few sentences long. If you want the text for your reference, I can place a copy in your userspace at User:Pascalelizabeth/Alpha Chi Theta; just ask. I would recommend starting the article in your userspace. If your organization is the same one at the University of Victoria, you can use the earlier version as the basis for yours, then edit it to bring it up to standards and finally move it to the mainspace of Wikipedia. The article will need to have independent sources (i.e. not published by the sorority), not just references to the organization published by itself like its website and Facebook page. See Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) for more information. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 01:00, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

- Can we use other wikipedia pages as an independent source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pascalelizabeth (talk • contribs)

• No, that's not allowed. See WP:CIRCULAR. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:16, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

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