This is an archive of past discussions with User:Mudwater. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Latest comment: 5 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Please make the following updates:
Information to be added or removed: Name of Brewery should read: The Fermentorium Beverage Co.,
Description should read: The brainchild of locally-raised homebrewer, The Fermentorium opened its doors in early 2016. Currently offering 24 beers on tap, the brewery also distributes to restaurants and bars all over Southeastern WI.
Explanation of issue: Incorrect, outdated information currently listed.
@Jandreas311: (1) Both the official website and the Facebook page have the name as The Fermentorium Brewery & Tasting Room. How about if I change the entry to say that? (2) About the other text you're suggesting, it may seem reasonable, but... If you look at the other entries in the table, and if you look at other states' "List of breweries in X" articles, you'll see that each entry tends to be super brief, and not very descriptive. I think that's because there's a strong trend on Wikipedia to avoid promoting brands or commercial establishments. That makes the lists less interesting, and in a way less useful, I admit. But at least they name each brewery and say what town they're in, and have one, or a few, footnotes linking to some kind of further information. — Mudwater (Talk)01:49, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply. Yes, using "The Fermentorium Brewery & Tasting Room" would also be ok. Could the description read Opened in 2016, 24 beers on taps along with distribution in WI.
@Jandreas311: I've updated the name of the brewery, and also added a second footnote. As for further enhancements to the text, in my opinion that would make it more promotional in nature than is generally accepted in the "List of breweries in X" articles. Although if it's any consolation, the two footnotes are nice write-ups, especially the one that was there before. But, it's not really up to me anyway, it's what all the other editors think. So I'd say feel free to continue the discussion in that section on the article talk page. — Mudwater (Talk)01:28, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
Hello Mudwater: An invitation for you to check out the Sustainability Initiative, which aims to reduce the environmental impact of the Wikimedia projects. If you're interested, please consider adding your name to the list of supporters, which serves to express and denote the community's support of the initiative. Thanks for your consideration! North America100009:39, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Non-free album cover being used in a decorative manner in Long Strange Trip#Soundtrack album. Non-free album cover art is generally allowed to be used for primary identification purposes in stand-alone articles about albums, but its use in other articles is generally only allowed when the cover art itself is the subject of sourced critical commentary as explained in WP:NFC#cite_note-3 and the context for non-free use required by WP:NFCC#8 is evident. There is no such commentary for this particular album cover anywhere in the article, and the use of soundtrack album cover art in articles about films or TV programs is generally not allowed for this reason as explained in WP:FILMSCORE.
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated files}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the file's talk page.
Latest comment: 5 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi,
Can you help with the "Production" & "Personal" section? I haven't yet received my copy and I can't find that information on-line.
TraxPlayer (talk) 11:39, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
@TraxPlayer: Yes, I sure can. Done. Let me know if you have any other questions or requests. "P.S." Nice job with the footnotes. Some people don't realize it, but that's actually the most important part. Otherwise some editor might think the article does not meet the Wikipedia notability guidelines and nominate it for deletion. That actually happened with Dave's Picks Volume 17. You can see the discussion about that here, and a historical snapshot of the article here. — Mudwater (Talk)00:36, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hello Mudwater,
News
The WMF has announced that Google Translate is now available for translating articles through the content translation tool. This may result in an increase in machine translated articles in the New Pages Feed. Feel free to use the {{rough translation}} tag and gently remind (or inform) editors that translations from other language Wikipedia pages still require attribution per WP:TFOLWP.
Discussions of interest
Two elements of CSD G6 have been split into their own criteria: R4 for redirects in the "File:" namespace with the same name as a file or redirect at Wikimedia Commons (Discussion), and G14 for disambiguation pages which disambiguate zero pages, or have "(disambiguation)" in the title but disambiguate a single page (Discussion).
NPR is not a binary keep / delete process. In many cases a redirect may be appropriate. The deletion policy and its associated guideline clearly emphasise that not all unsuitable articles must be deleted. Redirects are not contentious. See a classic example of the templates to use. More templates are listed at the R template index. Reviewers who are not aware, do please take this into consideration before PROD, CSD, and especially AfD because not even all admins are aware of such policies, and many NAC do not have a full knowledge of them.
NPP Tools Report
Superlinks – allows you to check an article's history, logs, talk page, NPP flowchart (on unpatrolled pages) and more without navigating away from the article itself.
copyvio-check – automatically checks the copyvio percentage of new pages in the background and displays this info with a link to the report in the 'info' panel of the Page curation toolbar.
Six Month Queue Data: Today – Low – 2393 High – 4828 Looking for inspiration? There are approximately 1000 female biographies to review.
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How to create a sub user page like you did to test regional dishes in the US
Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Mudwater, thanks for engaging about this and putting up with what I hope you view as constructive "opposition". Can you point me to instructions to creating a sub-page like you did with Mudwater/draft4 so I can show my thoughts about how to do a table of regional dishes. I'll create my own example for all of us to look at. Or tell me to stop worrying about this issue and I'll think of other things to do. HighAtop94 (talk) 02:35, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
@HighAtop94: Greetings! You know, you could just use your sandbox for that. That's what Valereee did, earlier in that talk page section. Or you can do what I did and create a user sub-page. Wikipedia:User pages#Creating a subpage explains how to do it, when starting out on your user page. In fact it describes two different ways to do it. Let me know if you have any further questions. "P.S." The other thing I did was link from the article talk page to a particular version of the sub-page (this would work with your sandbox too), so when I change the sub-page later, the link will still show what I was talking about. As you might already know, you do that by clicking on the History tab in the upper right, and then displaying the particular version. Then create an external link to that, using the URL at the top of the page. — Mudwater (Talk)03:59, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
NPR Newsletter No.18
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hello Mudwater,
WMF at work on NPP Improvements
Niharika Kohli, a product manager for the growth team, announced that work is underway in implementing improvements to New Page Patrol as part of the 2019 Community Wishlist and suggests all who are interested watch the project page on meta. Two requested improvements have already been completed. These are:
Allow filtering by no citations in page curation
Not having CSD and PRODs automatically marked as reviewed, reflecting current consensus among reviewers and current Twinkle functionality.
Reliable Sources for NPP
Rosguill has been compiling a list of reliable sources across countries and industries that can be used by new page patrollers to help judge whether an article topic is notable or not. At this point further discussion is needed about if and how this list should be used. Please consider joining the discussion about how this potentially valuable resource should be developed and used.
Backlog drive coming soon
Look for information on the an upcoming backlog drive in our next newsletter. If you'd like to help plan this drive, join in the discussion on the New Page Patrol talk page.
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hello Mudwater,
WMF at work on NPP Improvements
More new features are being added to the feed, including the important red alert for previously deleted pages. This will only work if it is selected in your filters. Best is to 'select all'. Do take a moment to check out all the new features if you have not already done so. If anything is not working as it should, please let us know at NPR. There is now also a live queue of AfC submissions in the New Pages Feed. Feel free to review AfCs, but bear in mind that NPP is an official process and policy and is more important.
QUALITY of REVIEWING
Articles are still not always being checked thoroughly enough. If you are not sure what to do, leave the article for a more experienced reviewer. Please be on the alert for any incongruities in patrolling and help your colleagues where possible; report patrollers and autopatrolled article creators who are ostensibly undeclared paid editors.
The displayed ORES alerts offer a greater 'at-a-glance' overview, but the new challenges in detecting unwanted new content and sub-standard reviewing do not necessarily make patrolling any easier, nevertheless the work may have a renewed interest factor of a different kind. A vibrant community of reviewers is always ready to help at NPR.
Backlog
The backlog is still far too high at between 7,000 and 8,000. Of around 700 user rights holders, 80% of the reviewing is being done by just TWO users. In the light of more and more subtle advertising and undeclared paid editing, New Page Reviewing is becoming more critical than ever.
Move to draft
NPR is triage, it is not a clean up clinic. This move feature is not limited to bios so you may have to slightly re-edit the text in the template before you save the move. Anything that is not fit for mainspace but which might have some promise can be draftified - particularly very poor English and machine and other low quality translations.
Notifying users
Remember to use the message feature if you are just tagging an article for maintenance rather than deletion. Otherwise articles are likely to remain perma-tagged. Many creators are SPA and have no intention of returning to Wikipedia. Use the feature too for leaving a friendly note note for the author of a first article you found well made or interesting. Many have told us they find such comments particularly welcoming and encouraging.
PERM
Admins are now taking advantage of the new time-limited user rights feature. If you have recently been accorded NPR, do check your user rights to see if this affects you. Depending on your user account preferences, you may receive automated notifications of your rights changes. Requests for permissions are not mini-RfAs. Helpful comments are welcome if absolutely necessary, but the bot does a lot of the work and the final decision is reserved for admins who do thorough research anyway.
Other news
School and academic holidays will begin soon in various places around the Western world. Be on the lookout for the usual increase in hoax, attack, and other junk pages.
Our next newsletter might be announcing details of a possible election for co-ordinators of NPR. If you think you have what it takes to micro manage NPR, take a look at New Page Review Coordinators - it's a job that requires a lot of time and dedication.
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The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ZuZu Man until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Richard3120 (talk) 14:27, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for your entirely fair comments there. I'm not really that worried about the ultimate outcome of the AfD, whether it's deleted, redirected or rewritten, I'm more concerned that as it stands the article is obviously factually incorrect and conflates a couple of entirely different albums. I don't believe it is notable, but if the decision is to keep the article, I'm happy to help rewriting it to remove the errors. Richard3120 (talk) 01:46, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
No problem. As a result I've adjusted the album chronologies accordingly, but if I missed anything or messed anything up, let me know. Richard3120 (talk) 01:11, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
New Page Review newsletter September-October 2019
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hello Mudwater,
Backlog
Instead of reaching a magic 300 as it once did last year, the backlog approaching 6,000 is still far too high. An effort is also needed to ensure that older unsuitable older pages at the back of the queue do not get automatically indexed for Google.
Coordinator
A proposal is taking place here to confirm a nominated user as Coordinator of NPR.
This month's refresher course
Why I Hate Speedy Deleters, a 2008 essay by long since retired Ballonman, is still as valid today. Those of us who patrol large numbers of new pages can be forgiven for making the occasional mistake while others can learn from their 'beginner' errors. Worth reading.
Deletion tags
Do bear in mind that articles in the feed showing the trash can icon (you will need to have 'Nominated for deletion' enabled for this in your filters) may have been tagged by inexperienced or non NPR rights holders using Twinkle. They require your further verification.
Paid editing
Please be sure to look for the tell-tale signs of undisclosed paid editing. Contact the creator if appropriate, and submit the issue to WP:COIN if necessary. WMF policy requires paid editors to connect to their adverts.
Subject-specific notability guidelines' (SNG). Alternatives to deletion
Reviewers are requested to familiarise themselves once more with notability guidelines for organisations and companies.
Blank-and-Redirect is a solution anchored in policy. Please consider this alternative before PRODing or CSD. Note however, that users will often revert or usurp redirects to re-create deleted articles. Do regularly patrol the redirects in the feed.
Not English
A common issue: Pages not in English or poor, unattributed machine translations should not reside in main space even if they are stubs. Please ensure you are familiar with WP:NPPNE. Check in Google for the language and content, and if they do have potential, tag as required, then move to draft. Modify the text of the template as appropriate before sending it.
Tools
Regular reviewers will appreciate the most recent enhancements to the New Pages Feed and features in the Curation tool, and there are still more to come. Due to the wealth of information now displayed by ORES, reviewers are strongly encouraged to use the system now rather than Twinkle; it will also correctly populate the logs.
Stub sorting, by SD0001: A new script is available for adding/removing stub tags. See User:SD0001/StubSorter.js, It features a simple HotCat-style dynamic search field. Many of the reviewers who are using it are finding it an improvement upon other available tools.
Assessment: The script at User:Evad37/rater makes the addition of Wikiproject templates extremely easy. New page creators rarely do this. Reviewers are not obliged to make these edits but they only take a few seconds. They can use the Curation message system to let the creator know what they have done.
DannyS712 bot III is now patrolling certain categories of uncontroversial redirects. Curious? Check out its patrol log.
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Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Please don't undo my contributions concerning patches in this release. The reliable source is me. Simply using my ears, then my eyes using an audio editing program, makes my statement 100% true. Check for yourself. This isn't some insider info. It was easy to figure out if you know the Grateful Dead, and especially this time period, like I do. Having a degree and working background in audio production helps as well. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:3187:7100:E833:D1CF:D3B4:BF56 (talk) 17:52, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
Europe '72: The Complete Recordings
Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
@2605:A000:3187:7100:E833:D1CF:D3B4:BF56: Hello. I'm not sure if I'm going to continue to undo those additions or not. For what it's worth, I believe what you're saying, and I think your edits are probably accurate. On the other hand, this is Wikipedia, and the content of articles is supposed to be based on reliable, third party sources, not on original research. You can read all about that until the cows come home -- for example, at WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:RS, and WP:VNT. Also, I've seen edits about patches in GD albums undone by editors other than myself. With all that being said, my number one request or suggestion is that you create an account, and edit articles and post on talk pages while logged in. That makes it a lot easier to have a meaningful discussion, among other benefits. — Mudwater (Talk)19:01, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
edits concerning patches
Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
I created an account, but I'm pretty sure I won't be editing articles anymore. I guess I have (or had) a fundamental misunderstanding of what Wikipedia is supposed to be. I just wanted the correct information to be out there. I'm very passionate about Grateful Dead releases being a document of what happened in a particular time and place, and I feel folks should know if that's not entirely the case. I've lately been re-stitching shows back together using the offical releases for quality and existing sbd recordings for the complete picture. I even add aud recordings if only to add a few seconds missing from the soundboards. Usually it's just adding in extra tuning and banter, but sometimes I notice they've pulled the ol' switcheroo on us during the songs. I hate that I can't share the truth on here. Wikipedia's the place I learned about patches in the first place back in the Dick's Picks days. I suppose I'll just keep it to myself. Thanks for the education. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shotgunstallion (talk • contribs) 23:19, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
@Shotgunstallion: Hey now. Thanks for creating an account, and thanks for the messages. Also, sorry to rain on your parade. I hope you'll consider sticking around, and editing some more articles. You might have fun doing so -- on articles about Grateful Dead albums, or about other worthwhile topics. Also, you might find it helpful to look through the Wikipedia:Tutorial. — Mudwater (Talk)23:54, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
New Page Review newsletter November 2019
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hello Mudwater,
This newsletter comes a little earlier than usual because the backlog is rising again and the holidays are coming very soon.
Getting the queue to 0
There are now 806 holders of the New Page Reviewer flag! Most of you requested the user right to be able to do something about the huge backlog but it's still roughly less than 10% doing 90% of the work. Now it's time for action.
Exactly one year ago there were 'only' 3,650 unreviewed articles, now we will soon be approaching 7,000 despite the growing number of requests for the NPR user right. If each reviewer soon does only 2 reviews a day over five days, the backlog will be down to zero and the daily input can then be processed by every reviewer doing only 1 review every 2 days - that's only a few minutes work on the bus on the way to the office or to class! Let's get this over and done with in time to relax for the holidays.
Want to join? Consider adding the NPP Pledge userbox.
Our next newsletter will announce the winners of some really cool awards.
Coordinator
Admin Barkeep49 has been officially invested as NPP/NPR coordinator by a unanimous consensus of the community. This is a complex role and he will need all the help he can get from other experienced reviewers.
This month's refresher course
Paid editing is still causing headaches for even our most experienced reviewers: This official Wikipedia article will be an eye-opener to anyone who joined Wikipedia or obtained the NPR right since 2015. See The Hallmarks to know exactly what to look for and take time to examine all the sources.
Tools
It is now possible to select new pages by date range. This was requested by reviewers who want to patrol from the middle of the list.
It is now also possible for accredited reviewers to put any article back into the New Pages Feed for re-review. The link is under 'Tools' in the side bar.
Reviewer Feedback
Would you like feedback on your reviews? Are you an experienced reviewer who can give feedback to other reviewers? If so there are two new feedback pilot programs. New Reviewer mentorship will match newer reviewers with an experienced reviewer with a new reviewer. The other program will be an occasional peer review cohort for moderate or experienced reviewers to give feedback to each other. The first cohort will launch November 13.
Second set of eyes
Not only are New Page Reviewers the guardians of quality of new articles, they are also in a position to ensure that pages are being correctly tagged for deletion and maintenance and that new authors are not being bitten. This is an important feature of your work, especially while some routine tagging for deletion can still be carried out by non NPR holders and inexperienced users. Read about it at the Monitoring the system section in the tutorial. If you come across such editors doing good work, don't hesitate to encourage them to apply for NPR.
Do be sure to have our talk page on your watchlist. There are often items that require reviewers' special attention, such as to watch out for pages by known socks or disruptive editors, technical issues and new developments, and of course to provide advice for other reviewers.
Arbitration Committee
The annual ArbCom election will be coming up soon. All eligible users will be invited to vote. While not directly concerned with NPR, Arbcom cases often lead back to notability and deletion issues and/or actions by holders of advanced user rights.
Community Wish list
There is to be no wish list for WMF encyclopedias this year. We thank Community Tech for their hard work addressing our long list of requirements which somewhat overwhelmed them last year, and we look forward to a successful completion.
To opt-out of future mailings, you can remove yourself here
Non-free album cover being used in a decorative manner in Saving Christmas#Soundtrack. Non-free album cover art is generally allowed to be used for primary identification purposes in stand-alone articles about albums, but its use in other articles is generally only allowed when the cover art itself is the subject of sourced critical commentary as explained in WP:NFC#cite_note-3 and the context for non-free use required by WP:NFCC#8 is evident. There is no such commentary for this particular album cover anywhere in the article, and the use of soundtrack album cover art in articles about films or TV programs is generally not allowed for this reason as explained in WP:FILMSCORE and MOS:TVPRODUCTION.
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated files}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the file's talk page.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
Gotta love that old timey sounding stuff. It's getting less popular everyday, in favor of synth pop, EDM, rap, and other sounds that typically don't use actual musical instruments much of the time.
FWIW, Mick's a stoner, and back in the mid-80s, a friend of a friend who was at Garcia's place some time said that their friend said that Garcia has some of the kindest bud around. Da kine. North America100019:13, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Reviewer of the Year
This year's Reviewer of the Year is Rosguill. Having gotten the reviewer PERM in August 2018, they have been a regular reviewer of articles and redirects, been an active participant in the NPP community, and has been the driving force for the emerging NPP Source Guide that will help reviewers better evaluate sourcing and notability in many countries for which it has historically been difficult.
Special commendation again goes to Onel5969 who ends the year as one of our most prolific reviewers for the second consecutive year. Thanks also to Boleyn and JTtheOG who have been in the top 5 for the last two years as well.
Several newer editors have done a lot of work with CAPTAIN MEDUSA and DannyS712 (who has also written bots which have patrolled thousands of redirects) being new reviewers since this time last year.
Thanks to them and to everyone reading this who has participated in New Page Patrol this year.
(The top 100 reviewers of the year can be found here)
Redirect autopatrol
A recent Request for Comment on creating a new redirect autopatrol pseduo-permission was closed early. New Page Reviewers are now able to nominate editors who have an established track record creating uncontroversial redirects. At the individual discretion of any administrator or after 24 hours and a consensus of at least 3 New Page Reviewers an editor may be added to a list of users whose redirects will be patrolled automatically by DannyS712 bot III.
Source Guide Discussion
Set to launch early in the new year is our first New Page Patrol Source Guide discussion. These discussions are designed to solicit input on sources in places and topic areas that might otherwise be harder for reviewers to evaluate. The hope is that this will allow us to improve the accuracy of our patrols for articles using these sources (and/or give us places to perform a WP:BEFORE prior to nominating for deletion). Please watch the New Page Patrol talk page for more information.
This month's refresher course
While New Page Reviewers are an experienced set of editors, we all benefit from an occasional review. This month consider refreshing yourself on Wikipedia:Notability (geographic features). Also consider how we can take the time for quality in this area. For instance, sources to verify human settlements, which are presumed notable, can often be found in seconds. This lets us avoid the (ugly) 'Needs more refs' tag.
Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Peace is a state of balance and understanding in yourself and between others, where respect is gained by the acceptance of differences, tolerance persists, conflicts are resolved through dialog, peoples rights are respected and their voices are heard, and everyone is at their highest point of serenity without social tension. Happy Holidays to you and yours. ―Buster7☎ 11:54, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Thanks for uploading File:First-Winter.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).
This is an archive of past discussions with User:Mudwater. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
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"P.S." Nice job with the footnotes. Some people don't realize it, but that's actually the most important part. Otherwise some editor might think the article does not meet the Wikipedia notability guidelines and nominate it for deletion. That actually happened with Dave's Picks Volume 17. You can see the discussion about that here, and a historical snapshot of the article here. — Mudwater (Talk) 00:36, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
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juice. North America1000 20:15, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
— Mudwater (Talk) 22:26, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
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