Nfm24

2013 Africa Cup of Nations

Hey, if you are going to correct the diagrams, you don't have to create a new one. Just edit the old one... Kante4 (talk) 21:15, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I did edit but I did not want to overwrite the old one. I edited in a text editor because when I ungrouped the shirts in an online SVG editor they went into crazy positions. Text editor works OK but takes too long... Nfm24 (talk) 21:25, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

The problem is to back the formations up other than the "eye-test". So, no source given or is there one anywhere in the internet? Would be better, as cafonline.com is still in 1620s it seems... Kante4 (talk) 12:48, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Well there is no better source than the match itself. The evidence is right there on the field, it just has to be written down correctly during the match. My "source" is simply my own notes on paper which I made when I watched the games - after the tournament ends I will send my data to RSSSF (maybe you have seen some of my work there before?). Then there will be published data at a clear URL which can be cited as a reference. Meanwhile if you want a more concrete citeable source, how about referencing the match video footage, for example, https://www.itv.com/itvplayer/africa-cup-of-nations (probably this only works in the U.K.). Or even further, we could take screenshots of the video during the match to show the players actually in their positions. It depends how much proof is really needed. Ultimately, only the coach and the players know what the formation was supposed to be. Everyone else can only interpret it by watching the game.

The key point is that the correct formation can only be published after the match begins. The errors come because about 2 minutes before the match starts, the TV channels (e.g. Eurosport) display lineups and sometimes formation diagrams for the match, but because these are presented before the match, there is no source to back up the information contained in these diagrams - they are just guesses. And often, especially for "exotic" countries such as in AFCON, the guesses are bad. I do not think that a pre-match diagram guess from a TV channel can be a valid source for an encyclopaedia based on factual information. If the facts are not known, then nothing should be written until they are (or, if a guess is used, then it should be made very clear that it is only a guess).Nfm24 (talk) 16:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

But that is still no "source", i know what you mean and all but some people may want to see a source that shows "your" lineup. You know what i mean? Eurosport.com has a lineup shown, that's the only site i know who shows such a graphic, so that would be, even a weak, source. Kante4 (talk) 16:34, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Eurosport's lineup is indeed a source, but of false information. Are you suggesting that we should knowingly use false information, just because there is a source which published it? There are sources which say that the world is flat! Surely the important thing is to use the most accurate source available. Eurosport shows this guessed lineup before the match just for its viewers to have a vague idea of how the teams will look. They are not claiming that the teams will definitely play in that shape, it is just a preview guess and only that. Eurosport is only given the list of 11 starting players. The coach does not tell Eurosport which formation they will play. So someone at Eurosport takes a guess. But for Wikipedia, the formation diagram should show the true formation used in the match itself, and therefore Eurosport's graphic is not a suitable source for this purpose. To be clear:

(i) The point of showing formations on TV (before match) is to say "this is what could happen".

(ii) The point of showing formations on wikipedia (after match) is to say "this is what did happen".

The paper on my desk is also a source, even if it is not easy for everyone to see it! If you want an accessible source which shows "my" formations then wait until after the tournament when they will appear on RSSSF, or cite a link to TV video footage. Eg. match highlights: http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/african-nations-cup/

Anyway, I noticed that you didn't cite a reference to Eurosport on the other lineups you made earlier.

Because i watched the match. I'm with you, just pointing out that some editors may want a source, just to warn you. Kante4 (talk) 18:13, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

OK then I would refer them to this discussion ;-) Nfm24 (talk) 18:52, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

December 2014

Please do not add or change content, as you did to Godfrey Chitalu, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. GiantSnowman 08:45, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Hello. Firstly, Godfrey Chitalu has been dead for over 20 years so referring to WP:BLP in the revisions comments is inaccurate and perhaps a little callous. Secondly, kindly explain exactly what level of referencing would satisfy you (personally) in this particular case. Are you asking for a single reference which lists the full table? Or individual references for every goal? Or a few articles as an example? The international goals table was provided by Jerry Muchimba based on his research in Zambian newspaper archives. This is original work which will be published in a forthcoming book, and which has been published in part in magazine articles and websites etc. Mr Muchimba can reference every goal and article separately, if necessary, but obviously it is rather overkill especially compared to the analogous tables for other players with high goals counts. He also had a rather hard time previously dealing with the issue of the Messi "record" (see the Talk page). Thus would prefer to know specifically what is sufficient here. Thanks for your attention. Nfm24 (talk) 14:23, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

What book is it detailed in? Provide that source and everyone is happy. GiantSnowman 08:39, 26 December 2014 (UTC)