User talk:Orderinchaos/Archive 07

This is an archive of inactive discussions. Please do not edit it. If you wish to revitalize an old topic, bring it up on the current talk page.

Archive : July 2007

Re "Warning"

Your buddy User:Thewinchester made the knowingly false claim that "Additionally, you once again fail to assume good faith and accuse another user of having undertaking a concerted campaign of deleting school articles, and you do so with no basis or justification." There is absolutely nothing I said before or after that can be misinterpreted to mean this. Your "Warning" left on my talk page provides no evidence of incivility, whatsoever. If there is some specific aspect that you feel is uncivil, you need to be far more specific. I would strongly suggest making a far more specific warning to your User:Thewinchester who seems again to be trying to instigate a problem using false accusations, as he has boasted in the past. You know full well of his past incivility problems. Alansohn 05:40, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I was not criticising you for holding a different opinion - people have different opinions, big deal. I'm glad that you are unafraid to express your own views on a controversial area, and most of your post, although I disagreed with it, was totally fine. If your post had have stuck to the deletion at hand and even the odd insinuation as to your beliefs about the other user's general behaviour (as I firmly believe that people can make up their own minds), I would not have warned. Likewise, if Thewinchester had have stepped over the line you did, I would have no choice but to warn him also. Orderinchaos 05:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• My post did stick to the deletion at hand. Your buddy made the claim that "Additionally, you once again fail to assume good faith and accuse another user of having undertaking a concerted campaign of deleting school articles, and you do so with no basis or justification." This statement is rather far over any line of incivility, a rather chronic problem of his, as you well know. There is nothing that I had said that justifies this statement, which is grossly uncivil. Read the words that I wrote and read his response and tell me if his accusation was justified. I find it hard to believe that you could still claim that my response to this baseless accusation was uncivil. Again, if you believe that there was anything uncivil, I expect you to be far more specific than just pointing to a diff. If you cannot justify his incivility, I look forward to seeing your warning on User:Thewinchester's talk page. Alansohn 06:03, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
  • As a demonstration of your good faith, please let me know when you'll be posting the incivility warning for User:Thewinchester regarding his baseless and uncivil personal attack that "Additionally, you once again fail to assume good faith and accuse another user of having undertaking a concerted campaign of deleting school articles, and you do so with no basis or justification." I also look forward to seeing what part of my remarks to your friend's incivility were in turn uncivil. I anxiously await your response. Alansohn 06:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
    • As the particular line you overstepped was not also overstepped by said user, there is no case to make and I would appreciate that you desist in making the above kind of demands on my talk page. I actually glossed over comments by yourself in the same debate that were equal in tenor, if not worse, than those you have raised above. Orderinchaos 06:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
      • It was your pal who stated "Additionally, you once again fail to assume good faith and accuse another user of having undertaking a concerted campaign of deleting school articles, and you do so with no basis or justification.", which is clearly unsupported by any statement made. As you are clearly not acting in good faith here, there seems to be no further basis for this conversation. Alansohn 06:53, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
        • I do not believe that calling someone to account is a personal attack. I also believe that your comments and edit summaries on *this* page to *myself* fail to assume good faith. Anyway, this silliness is stopping me from getting stuff I need to get done on articles, so we shall leave it here. Orderinchaos 07:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Census templates

Thanks very much for your work (much appreciated!) on the census templates, its timely because I've come across a few articles with dodgy updated census figures, so it's good to be able to easily put a link in to the correct figure that anyone can thereafter easily check with one mouse click. BTW I've just noticed that Hamersley after ref 57 has gone out of synch somewhere, might leave that one to you as it looks like a bit of a minefield :)--Melburnian 11:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

With 76 refs you're bound to get the odd one go feral :)--Melburnian 12:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks from me for the cleanup of the dead ABS links. The ABS template is quite useful in tidying up the references as well. Also, I have replied to your comment on the Riverina article talk page. -- Mattinbgn/ ^talk 23:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Hammersley, Western Australia

Just to let you know - Michellecrisp has made massive changes to the Hammersley article. As it is a Featured Article and was done without discussion, I reverted it, but as you were instrumental in getting that to FA status I thought you should know that this has been happening. She seems to have different ideas about what should be included in an article and has deleted a lot of content without discussion on other pages. I believe they are in good faith but as Wikipedia is not paper most of the things she deleted are acceptable content for Wikipedia. JRG 03:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

A couple of editors have had a chat to her and the edits she has made since my revert appear to be positive ones, and she says she will discuss anything major from now on. She may start an FAR in 8 days, but that is her right to. JRG 04:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I've explained that my issue is not necessarily verbose or the fact that everything is citated, it is the importance and notability of these facts. see article discussion, something should not be added just because you can citate it. thanks for your comments Michellecrisp 04:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

my issue is (and I regularly patrol locality articles worldwide) that this article stood out to me as loads of text with lots of minor detail and too verbose to read most sections, just wads and wads of text. A good test is to see if it's written for a general audience, so I am speaking as someone from Western Australia. I apply the same stahdard to all articles, I come across. I'm not questioning your knowledge of the area or Wikipedia policies. Michellecrisp 04:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Hamersley, Western Australia has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

TW

I think threatening to block was a bit much, but so was the l3 warning. My net cafe visits are becoming more and more like watching a bad soap opera that I can at times participate in :) Orderinchaos 02:04, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

After thinking about this for 36 hours, I still stand behind my statement. That stunt was unacceptable, and the general trajectory of his behaviour over the last few months is heading towards trolldom. If I see more of what I saw yesterday, I will block him. Since you evidently disagree, I guess we need to talk about how you intend to respond in that eventuality. Hesperian 12:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Thuringowa edits

Hi hope your having a great holiday....thanks for your info this will be a great help as now i will be able to get back all my hard work (not that i will be putting it all back on the page yet) thanks again Thuringowacityrep 09:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

thanks

Thanks for your comments. As I said I'm committed to making this and other articles better. So whatever the outcome of the FA review, I will accept. Michellecrisp 03:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

well if that was what fred.e was going on about it wasn't made explicitly clear to me what I said that was so damaging to him. If it was pointed out as clearly offensive I would have removed it. Michellecrisp 03:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Flora IDs

I'm up to nearly 700 photos on my trip, after I get back on Thursday we can have fun trying to identify all the flora I photographed (most of it will probably be pretty easy) Orderinchaos 03:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Happy to have a crack... but I fear that sooner or later you're going to figure out that I don't actually know anything about plants. ;-) Fortunately you can always get a second opinion from Cas or Melburnian. Hesperian 04:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

everyone reads everyone's talk pages anyway. Which explains why I don't have a Signpost subscription. I usually just thumb through Gnangarra's copy. ;-) Hesperian 11:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Good Bloke Award

		The Original Barnstar
		A champion editor, and a damn good bloke too. Well deserved. Twenty Years 15:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Keep it up, and get the f--- off wikipedia - enjoy ur holiday, you deserve it. Twenty Years 15:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Lakes

Re: Bibra Lake and Lake Clifton, if you think they are better off as redirects to the suburb/town rather than substubs on the lakes with a {{for}} tagline, you only need to overwrite the article with a redirect (or revert to a previous version that was a redirect), leaving the substub in the article history. How come you speedied them before redirecting? Hesperian 06:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

No worries, and no rush. Enjoy your Dongaring. Hesperian 07:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

My RfA

Well, I was looking for a prettier way to do this, but I'm not very artistic, so I'll just say thank you for your support in my RfA, which was closed as successful. I look forward to serving the community in a new way. By the way, you rock! -- But|seriously|folks  08:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

More teasing

Picking on OIC is flavour of the week, lucky you. When you've got a spare moment, would you mind reviewing your rating of Members of the Western Australian Legislative Council, 1832-1870. You rated it a stub, whereas I would have put it, um, maybe a smidgen short of featured list. ;-) Hesperian 13:30, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Cat

Most projects have holes/loose threads when it comes to cats - tell me about it. If someone can fix the oz one - greaat. giggy needs checking on saying sub projects do not go with cats - I have left suitable advice on his talk page - assuming I understood its comments. It gives me the creeps about some aspects of this - of which no doubt you will get a 13th friday gmail in screeching owl form - there is no welcome back to the big smiling smoke here - you might get it in the mail ... :| SatuSuro 00:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

All of which could have been misinterpreted- oops - welcome back - have more on gmail than here is what I meant - trust all is well SatuSuro 08:18, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

New project

And may all who sail in her not get too drunk, hic SatuSuro 10:18, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

No sign of the new project at the obvious locations yet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Australia SatuSuro 06:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Kev

He doesn't appear to be in my Who's Who, are you sure he is a real or notable person? Fred ☻ 01:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Gawd look at the refs for a start :( SatuSuro 01:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, that emoticon does not detect humour. I hope you are not offended by my stupid sense of one :-) Regards, see you another day. Fred ☻ 03:41, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Still the same day and he invokes (order that is) worldwide conspiracies like that?What about the end of the world? - nah check the refs at brearley - it needs close attnetion by someone SatuSuro 11:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

NobutoraTakeda

I haven't even done anything to his user page. Your comment was unnecessary. NobutoraTakeda 16:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Thats a load of crap. The "numbers" were a copy and paste of years and dates in which the two items are redundant. Why don't I report you for your rude attitude and your making up lies on my talk page? NobutoraTakeda 16:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The diffs were here and here. I don't see how this could be interpreted as anything *but* vandalism. I stand by my warning to you. Orderinchaos 17:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

And which number does it fall under? There is only one thing that you said, that it was "random numbers" and it is blatantly not random or anything close to random. You can't just accuse me of things without proof. You think I vandalized, report it and we will see. If not, I will report you for accusing me of things that aren't true. NobutoraTakeda 17:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC) I suggest you read WP:HARASS. You accuse me of breaking rules without proof. Either you can apologize and drop this or you can put up which number on the vandalism chart that I violated with clear evidence that your interpretation is what it means. If you chose to instead act rudely as you are doing right now, I will complain. NobutoraTakeda 17:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Thewinchester

Chime out please. You are clearly just entering the argument to stick up for a friend and your comments are unwelcome, unwanted and irrelevant to the issue at hand. Until you are better aware of the issue being debated, please don't comment.Sammy lightfoot 20:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Article Notability

I put up this article on Oscar (Pet Rock) thats planned to be traded up for a vehicle for kids with special medical needs. It's received wide publicity here in Queensland, but not sure about the rest of Australia. It's a similar idea to one red paperclip and so has received media interest in Canada also (where the idea first started) because of that. Maybe the article is pre-mature, as it now has a borderline notability tag. It is a unusual type of article, but it does have some importance, specially with the publicity its been receiving. Let me know your thoughts, otherwise it may as well be deleted for being too trival. Boylo 10:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

WP Lake Macquarie

Hi OIC - thanks for the notice. I myself nominated this Project for deletion about a year ago but the nomination resulted in the WikiProject being kept mainly because of the list of suburbs, etc. contained within the project pages. While I have no problems with this being deleted, I would like to see a WikiProject on the Hunter region created, especially as Newcastle is the second-largest city in Australia that is not a capital city, but I'm happy to create that in the future from scratch if need be. However, before deleting this I think you should ask the Newcastle meetup crew (personal talk page messages might be the best way to go) and others who have expressed interest in Newcastle-related issues on that page, who may have an opinion about expanding the project or having it deleted. A WikiProject New South Wales is an excellent idea, though, and may spur non-Sydney editors to do some work on articles outside the Sydney region. JRG 10:09, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your support and note. When you get your plant photos uploaded, drop me a line, and I'll have a got at the IDs (besides I get to see WA flora without spending a fortune on airfares :) ) --Melburnian 01:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

View comments

I hope you can take your time in viewing my comments here Your opinion in this will be helpful. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 08:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Census template

you certainly lived up to your name this morning! WikiTownsvillian 23:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed

It's not the sort of diff one would like to see quoted in some RfC down the track. :| Orderinchaos 04:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Gosh, if I had noticed the one above, I'd have removed that too. Hesperian 04:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Potters House

Hi there, I noticed you had some previous contact with Potters House related articles. I've been working on trying to improve the main however in my wonderings I found several or more other Potters House articles basically they have been in groups such as leader/church/fellowship. Anyhow I'm currently discussing the deletion of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potters_House_Christian_Centre_Walthamstow since this offers no new information than that of what the main can explain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potter%27s_House_Christian_Fellowship

If you have any spare time could you offer some helpful advice, since there is potential for the same user to create branch articles all over the place. Thanks heaps.Darrenss 11:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The truth is that my page got deleted while I was away. It is almost impossible to re-establish the user name I once had. Darren seems to think I was banned, but my page was deleted because I put links on the page, just as he has done. Darren is a former Potter's House member. If you look at his history you will see that HE is the one harrassing. He is only on Wikipedia to harras Potter's House members and to slander the church, as his history clearly shows. He claims I am vandalising his page. I was just deleting the poor quality/slanderous links he has been warned of puting on wiki. I can't understand why my userpage was deleted, while his is not, he has links on his page as well. His slandrous links go to groups claiming that I am a homosexual, have left the church, and desire to have sex with the church leaders. They have made slanderous films on You Tube about me also. Just Type in Nick Sayers. So Although I was banned if you look at my contribs, I was actually contrinbuting to wiki not just cutting people down, putting up stupid links and deleting the hard work of others like Darren Smith does. Nick. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.183.227.185 (talk • contribs)

I don't really see any real issue for me to resolve here, the prod was contested so I've put it up for AfD on procedural. Orderinchaos 13:23, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Please refrain from deleting the speedy deletion tag from user:darrenss. It is not because of personal reasons I have placed the tag there but because he is mearly using his page to promote slanderous links. Wiki policy is that it is not to be a repositor for links. Please let admins decide if this is deletable or not. 124.183.227.185 13:44, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

So how come he can have all types of slandereous links on his wiki page? Don't you think being an admin you should delete them? 124.183.227.185 13:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

just have to work out the damned inability to delete or cut inside the damned thing SatuSuro 05:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

P-Block

I have made a suggestion on Aurors talk page regarding our Probationary blocks, and was just after the four (involved) WP:WA admins thoughts on it, i would ask you to leave your thoughts on this proposal in that part of the page please. Thank you for taking this into consideration, best wishes. Twenty Years 14:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

NSW LGA naming

I notice that you have recently made a number of changes to NSW LGA names within articles (eg changing "Great Lakes Council" to "Great Lakes Shire"), as well as moving a number of LGA pages (eg "Gloucester Shire Council" to "Gloucester Shire"). As a result several pages and and names within articles are no longer correct. The correct names for NSW LGAs may be found at the NSW Department of Local Government website. These really need to be changed back to what they were.--AussieLegend 19:11, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

On LGA names in NSW, many of these articles were created by Grahamec who also renamed all the ones he didn't create - see here. While I can't find anything at the moment, I assume he was acting on a rational basis and/or following some kind of consensus. It may be worth checking with him first before we start a mass renaming of NSW LGAs. Just to clarify, i think leaving the "Council" out of the name except in cases such as Deniliquin Council is probably the way to go unless the article is about the Council itself e.g. Brisbane City Council. Cheers, Mattinbgn/ ^talk 22:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem with leaving "Council" out of the name is that the article is then wrongly named and it can cause confusion and introduce further errors. An example of this was Port Stephens, which can refer to both a a coastal inlet in NSW and the Port Stephens Council LGA. Because of confusion, the Port Stephens category was populated primarily with towns in the Port Stephens LGA, many of which are nowhere near Port Stephens the coastal inlet. (Some were 35km away) Obviously the category had been seen by somebody to represent the LGA, not the coastal inlet. At the same time 3 towns that are on the shores of Port Stephens but not in the LGA were included in the category and just to add to the confusion, the article for Port Stephens (the coastal inlet), not Port Stephens (the LGA) was listed as the primary article for the category which was clearly wrong. If you are going to name articles you need to name them accurately. Close enough isn't good enough. --AussieLegend 15:37, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

"the official name of the *council* (a local government authority) and the official name of the *shire/municipality* (a local government area with gazetted boundaries) are different."

No they aren't, at least not in NSW according to the DLG. They are one and the same. The shire/municipality that you would call Dungog Shire has exactly the same official name as the council that administers it. That name is listed by the Department of Local Government as Dungog Shire Council. The same is true for most other "shires" with some obvious exceptions. It's certainly confusing because many people see the council as the administrative body for the LGA. They don't realise that the LGA itself is called a Council.

"we're left with the odd situation of having to go with that as it's the most commonly used (and referenceable) name "

I'd argue that the better reference would be the DLG website since it lists all LGA names and the NSW government is the superior authority for all councils. If you look at individual LGA websites you'll see that they follow the DLG name and that has nothing to do with the fact that it is the actual council's website. It's because the website is the gateway to that particular region.

"Personally, I much prefer the system here in WA where they've kept it nice and simple"

The NSW DLG has tried to simplify the naming in NSW. All LGAs became Councils. Where a Council was formerly a shire "Council" was usually just added to the name, apparently to avoid having to reprint stationery. The naming is very self explanatory when you look at a complete list, with only a small number of exceptions. http://www.nsw.gov.au/popular_list.asp?KW=Home+Pages+Local+Government --AussieLegend 14:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Re:Couple of Tips

Thanks for the pointers. The one about edit summary I have alreasdy put into action, and I will refrain from adress objections since I see members of the community are doing that as is. TomStar81 (Talk) 20:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

QStik Records

If you are going to nominate an article for deletion then you should notify me, as the creator of the article, of your intention to delete it. The reason that I belive that the article is notable is as follows:

• The record label has assisted in identifying, promoting a number of Western Australian bands nationally and internationally - notably The Panda Band.
• Bands on the QStik label (New Rules For Boats, Rollerskates, Faith In Plastics, The Panda Band) have recieved national and international airplay.
• Bands on the QStik label have won a number of awards, including WAM Song of the Year & West Australian Music Industry Awards.
• The founder of QStik Records, Adam Scott, was nominated for a 'Golden WAMI' for his contribution to the Western Australian music industry and QStik Records nominated for 'Best WA Record label' at the 2007 West Australian Music Industry Awards.

Dan arndt 01:12, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Will provide independent verification of all the above for the record - in future I would like to remind you of your obligations to notify the creator of any articles of your nomimation for deletion - just a common courtesy y0ou seem to have forgotten Dan arndt 01:23, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I have noticed that there are a number of other articles that I have created that you have nominated for deletion, all of which you have not provided any notification to me (particularly when you check the history and can see I was the original creator) - as you can tell by my contributions I have been actively trying to populate/expand articles on West Australian music & rather than discouraging contributors through you actions as an admin you should be trying to encourage and support such contributors (give them guidance & assistance) Dan arndt 01:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

In answer to your comments not only was I the creator of QStik Records but also New Rules For Boats I noticed that on the other articles Sleepy Little Deathtoll Town and This Vital Chapter you didn't notifiy those creators either Dan arndt 02:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Sleepy Little Deathtoll Town

Have deleted the notability tag for Sleepy Little Deathtoll Town as I have provided additional information clarifying its notability. Dan arndt 02:41, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Need your comments

Hello! I hope you are feeling fine. I would like you to view my comments here. Your advise on this issue would be much appreciated. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 13:03, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Unusual Adoption Request

Hi! Im an English teacher in Toluca Mexico (west of Mexico City). My Advanced B classes will be contributing to Wikipedia as the focus of their English course for Fall 2007. I am looking for people who would like to mentor my students (who will be working in groups) as they do the following assignments: Edit and article (adding a citation), writing a stub with a citation, translating an English language article for Spanish Wikipedia and for the final project, writing a full article for English Wiki (they can expand on the stub mentioned previously). What I would like to do is put a list of "mentors/adopters" on my talk page as a kind of short cut for my students, who have limited time to get things done. The semester begings Aug 6, but the real Wikipedia work wont begin until the beginning of Sept. If you would like to add your name to my list, please go to my talk page and add it there, perhaps with a short introduction, if you like.

Thank you!

Thelmadatter 20:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)Thelmadatter

		Thank you
		Thank you for your comments on my recent unsuccsessful rfa, which concluded today with a final tally of 22/15/3. The comments and suggestions from this rfa, combined with the comments left during my first rfa, have given me a good idea of where I need improvement. —TomStar81 (Talk) 05:34, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

The City of Townsville

yes it is very interesting, couldn't agree more with every word of it, although it's very unexpected that it is getting rid of the ward system a first past the post voting system will turn our local politics on its head! WikiTownsvillian 08:34, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Beattie has said that while he will adopt the recommendations of boarder changes 'lock, stock and barrel' he will review both the names and the electoral make up, so they may still make a decision to divide the new city into divisions. Cheers, WikiTownsvillian 10:38, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

City of Thuringowa

Hi mate thanks for your input...but he clearly said "Location is not a city, either before or after the report" and this in untrue and a really stupid comment of their part, can you please tell me if I am correct in saying, that until after September Thuringowa City is still Thuringowa city, as is Townsville city because I have read a few other reports that say this is what the Gov want to do but it is not 100% going to happen, people are just jumping the gun a bit. thanks again Thuringowacityrep 10:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Your Advice is sought

Being new here I am seeking your advice on this:- As you know I raised the issue of Committees and Patron Associations for parliamentarian's pages on the Australian Politics Discussion page. While there has been a comment on the Patron and I now agree there has been no comment on the committees yet. How long should I leave it:- I have been holding off any other work till I sort out where I have been going wrong, don't want to start creating other MPs if the content is not going to make the grade. For a concensus I have sent this to three people User:Orderinchaos User:Recurring dreams & User:Golden Wattle all of you have guided my Wiki training thus far. AusBrian 07:00, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Rfa advice

Thank for for your rfa advice. I have set the "Prompt me when entering a blank edit summary" box in my prefernces, so far all seems well. And I will exercise more descretion when dealing with oppose votes on rfa's should I be renominated at some point in the future. TomStar81 (Talk) 23:53, 29 July 2007 (UTC)