Pietopper

Welcome!

Hello, Pietopper, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  Sr13 04:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Your signature

You might consider the following, from Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages: While not an absolute requirement, it is common practice for a signature to resemble to some degree the username it represents. Signatures that obscure an account name to the casual reader may be seen as disruptive. John Broughton | Talk 02:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

No problem, fixed. I thought it was more like a tagline. pietopper 03:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, much easier for the rest of us to go back and forth from the edit history of a page to editor comments on that page. John Broughton | Talk 02:49, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Category:User templates & Category:Academic degree user templates

Your userpage is not a template, please do not put it in these or any similar categories again. -PatPeter 03:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Wiki Research

Thanks for your feedback! Sutton4019 09:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

WP South Africa welcome

Hi, Pietopper Welcome to WikiProject South Africa!

We are a growing community of Wikipedia editors dedicated to identifying, categorizing, and improving articles relevant to South Africa. Here are some points that may be helpful: Our main aim is to help improve South Africa-related articles. Most important discussions take place on the project's main discussion page; it is highly recommended that you watchlist it. You may also be interested in joining WikProject Africa, the parent project to WikiProject South Africa. If you have any questions, feel free to ask on the talk page, and we will be happy to help you. Again, welcome! We hope you enjoy working on this project.

Speedy deletion nomination of Kweku Hanson

A tag has been placed on Kweku Hanson requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for biographies. You may also wish to consider using a Wizard to help you create articles - see the Article Wizard.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you. ttonyb (talk) 20:55, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

• Replied on my talk. Peter 22:33, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Stellenbosch to bid for Wikimania 2012!

Hi Piet!

The nascent South African Wikimedia chapter has decided to bid to host Wikimania in Stellenbosch, South Africa in 2012. This would be the first Wikimania in South Africa, and would be a great advertisement for our country. Please take a look at meta:Wikimania_2012/Bids/Stellenbosch. If you can add to the discussion, please do. If you feel that you are able to do anything to help, please join the Wikimedia South Africa mailing list and let us know. Even simple messages of support are valued!

Best regards,

David Richfield

Marais

Beefart (die skollie boy wat op die railway werk) says: Dankie ou bees. I do not know how that typographic error crept in. Bill Gates has a lot to answer for. Nobody spotted it until you did. Sterkte, or, in the lingo of the Land Down Under (waar ek nou woon), goodonyer.... Captainbeefart 15:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Baie dankie. I mostly content myself with 'dwergiewerk' in the few things I am interested in. Marais is one of those. 11:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Leipoldt

Beefart asks, full of hope: "Do you have a reference for the work of Harvey? I have looked everywhere without success"...

Done! pietopper (talk) 15:37, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Beefart says: Excellent! Well done! Now: where can I obtain a copy :)?....

Hmmm....yes, well, I have a copy. I bought it in 1972 for R1.80. The exchange rate was $1.40 to R1, down from $1.60 to R1 in the Sixties. Those were the days. South Africa had a miracle economy, with a growth rate or 9%. There were 3 hardcover editions published, all (apparently) financed by Rembrandt Tobacco Corp. My copy was actually printed by The Gothic Printing Company in Cape Town. I don't think they exist any more. My brother has a vast collection of Afrikaans books, he may have a spare copy. "Gustav Opperman" -- gustavopperman@gmail.com. Tell him Piet sent you. If you are looking for a translation of a specific poem, let me know and I will copy it from the book for you. The translations are by various authors by the way, some of them even by the poets themselves. pietopper (talk) 17:07, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Beefart says: Blikskottel! I didn't really think I'd have much luck. It would be a miracle to find a copy on the market today. Although a Rooinek (only 1/4 Boer, van die van Sitterts van Ceres), I love the poems of the older Afrikaners and would like to see their monumental works translated to a wider audience. I produced the translation of Marais' "Winternag" that is on Wikipedia. I also translated "Die Wereld is ons woning nie" (Totius) but this was deleted in an instant by the Usanians, using the excuse that it was "too long". (translation: "It did not come from Texas and so we don't give a shit about it"). My user name is Captainbeefart. I was born in Cape Town in 1947. I live in Tasmania.

Miracles do happen, see here: http://www.amazon.com/Afrikaans-Poems-English-Translations-Harvey/dp/B001GXILOW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1287074068&sr=8-1 I was also born in 1947, in Aliwal North, although SA Home Affairs allege Qumbu (because that is where my dad registered my birth.) I live in Florida, USA, on the Gulf Coast. pietopper (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

This is Guy Butler's translation of "Winternag":

Winter's Night

O Cold is the slight wind

and sere.

And gleaming in the dim light

and bare,

as vast and the mercy of God,

lie the plains in starlight and shade.

And high on the ridges,

among the burnt patches,

the seed grass is stirring

like beckoning fingers.

O tune grief-laden

on the east wind's pulse

like the song of a maiden

whose lover proves false.

In each grass blade's fold

a dew drop gleams bold,

but quickly it bleaches

to frost in the cold!

Everybody struggles with the rhythm when they translate. pietopper (talk) 19:30, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Beefart says: Much thanks for that. I have ordered a copy. I like Butler's translation. In my view the main choice a translator of poetry has to make is whether to keep rhyme. This can have a price in terms of exactitude. I prefer to keep rhyme intact. Without it the "feel" of the original is lost, in my opinion. Captainbeefart (talk) 03:11, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Beefart says. P.S. It is hard to find a match for "genade" and "skade" in English :) Here is my translation of a poem by Totius (Die wereld is ons woning nie). It was deleted from Wikipedia because it was "too long". Feel free to delete it too, if it is too long :)

THE WORLD IS NOT OUR DWELLING PLACE 
   
 The world is not our dwelling place 
 I see this in the sun that flees 
 and see it in the heron that, mistrustfully, 
 the same sun sees 
 on one leg from the reedy dale 
 and once the final rays are gone 
 a chill spills from this queachy lea 
 a frigid thrill runs right through me 
 I see it then in everything 
 that dusk throws round me in a ring 
 the world is not our dwelling place 
   
 The world is not our dwelling place 
 I see it when the moon blood red 
 rising from its field-dust bed 
 still (only just) the church-roof pares 
 from where an owl, abstrusely dumb, 
 sits and at that crescent stares. 
 As it grows quiet down the way 
 I recollect how, late today, 
 the mourners of the afternoon 
 emerged where owl now meets the moon 
 I mark it then in everything 
 while even tightens in a ring 
 the world is not our dwelling place 
    
 The world is not our dwelling place 
 I feel it when the winds awake 
 and oaken branches clash and break 
 I hear it in the fluttering 
 of little birds whose wings are thrown 
 against the branches smashed and blown 
 and find on coming closer yet 
 by moonbeam's vacillating light 
 a nest of fledglings overset 
 hurled down by tempest, shattered, dead 
 and feel it then in everything 
 as nighttime closes in a ring 
 the world is not our dwelling place

Captainbeefart (talk) 03:29, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Farell

I've no idea if this is the correct way to answer you. I'm having trouble figuring WIKI out. If you do get this please let me know.
Thanks for your response, I was pretty certain it would be removed. It wasn't posted for my own aggrandizement; I love the Afrikaans language, particularly the poetry, and wanted people to get a little better feel for the bittersweet directness of it's poetry. So I wrote that translation the same evening I put it on wiki; too quickly. Also there is a pretty significant mistake in the Marchant translation which seems to be generated in other translations, misinterpretation of "skade". Marchant mistook skade (damage) for skadu (shadows) and substituted "gloomy" which would have been "somber" in Afrikaans anyway. "Gloomy" or even "shadow" makes no sense at all, we have just talked about "bare and bright" and "starlight" etc. And "damage" leads us to the veld fires; a common occurrence. I don't know if you read my latest significant revision as of this AM (sorry, it's true):

O cold is the slight wind,
and keen.
Bare and bright in dim light
is seen,
as vast as the graces of God,
the veld's starlit and fire-scarred sod.
To the high edge of the lands,
spread over burned sands,
new seed-grass is stirring
like beckoning hands.

O mournful the tune
of the east-wind refrain,
like the song of a girl
who loved but in vain.
One drop of dew glistens
on each grass-blade's fold
and fast does it whiten
to frost in the cold!

I have also translated some of Koos du Plessis songs in rhythm, rhyme and metre for my own satisfaction and my non-Afrikaans speaking American wife and children. Koos du Plessis' songs are poetry set to music.

Born Pretoria 1945, lived in North America since 1965.

=I'm so excited

Salutations to Pietopper and Farell. We have a discussion of Afrikaans poetry on Wikipedia! About time! Afrikaans evolved rapidly in its early years. I was introduced to Wintersnag by teachers in the 1960s who had been born in the 1920s or earlier. They pointed out that the constructions used by Marias may have been archaeic. For example he may have used "skade" to mean "skadu" (shadows) and, in the view of one noted authortity of the sixties, he certainly meant "brande" to mean waves (branders) and not fires..... I am paralyzed by being net 'n ou rooinek... Well-meaning dabblers end up trying to translate Marais. Upon reflection, I boggle at my own audacity. But Eugene is gone and so, if we mere mortals won't take up the challenge, who will? Marchant = Beefart. Sterkte.

Well met

Good thing then, that we were so restrained our criticism of the translation. As they say, "Always speak softly and sweetly, in case you have to eat your words." Regarding the "skadu" vs "skade" controversy, my own belief is that Marais introduced the play on words deliberately, in order to convey darkness and damage. I do not buy the "branders" (in any case, that means breakers, not waves) thing at all. It coveys nothing in the context of the poem; the Boer nation did not care much for the sea (or the coast) and Marais himself did not either; his only exposure to the ocean would have been his journey to England and the subsequent ill-fated return when he spent a long time in a fever-induced (perhaps also drug-induced?) coma on the Mozambique coast -- where breakers are non-existent for the most part. Responding (belatedly) to something you raised in your earlier post, I believe that the translator's most important task is first, to maintain a rhythm (it does not have to be the same rhythm) and secondly the rhyme -- provided that the intent of the content is not compromised. Once again, the content does not have to be the same, but the intent must be maintained.

Once again, well met. pietopper (talk) 19:48, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Is my face red

Ag, man, Beefart!
I don't know why, but I just assumed that because Marais was long dead, that the Marchant who translated the poem was also long dead. Otherwise I would never have had the cheek to put my alternative translation under yours.
And then, after I find the rumour of your death is greatly exaggerated, it gets worse; the page I did it on was one you constructed!
Re the discussion, I think Marais really meant skade (damage) and brande (fires) exactly as written. The jarring dichotomy between "bright and bare" and "starlight" on one side, and the sudden bombshell drop of "skade" on the other, makes the reader sit up and say; "Wow, something is happening here!" It's the crack in the narrative. And although if the poem is read as simply a narrative about a winter night on the veldt it would be the result of a veldt fire, I think the deeper meaning is the Scorched Earth policy of the Khakis. I have accordingly changed my "and on the burned sands" to "and through the scorched sands" to bring the Khaki's policy a little more clearly. The meaning of skade as damage also leads us into the second part of verse with the word brande as burnt, otherwise the second part does not really follow the first.
Marais may well have wanted the reader to infer skadu from skade as well, Isaac Rosenberg uses this technique superbly in the last line of "Break of Day in the Trenches".
By far my favorite poem in ANY language is Marais' "Skoppensboer". It transcends all cultures and all times. I have translated it literally for my North American Children (34 year old artist and 36 year old writer), but have not yet sat down to try to put in rhyme and rhythm. I really relate to the metaphor, because I spent my time in UCT not going to class, but sitting in the Students Union playing a card game called klabberjass where the Jack was trump.
The last verse is brilliant, and that aspect of the human psyche has always puzzled me. We know from a very early age that we are going to die. I'm now 66 and I now know I'm not only going to die for sure, but I'm surely in the departure lounge and much much closer to the end than the middle, never mind the beginning. But I, like every-one else, simply puts that out of my mind. How do we do it?

My literal translation is below, what do you think? Do you know of any English translations?

Jack of Spades

A drop of gall is in the sweetest wine,
a tear on every happy note.
in every laugh a sigh of pain,
in every rose a dull petal.
The one that through the night
spies on our fun,
and laughs last,
is Jack of Spades

Sure and certain is the word:
the treasures which we gather up,
despite the strongest lock and cord
are just for moths and rust preserved
Just herders us
of dust and fluff
to pass over
to Jack of Spades.


The wonderfulness of flesh and blood;
the hair which catches the sunlight
and returns it in a golden glow;
the break of day on each soft cheek
and eyes full of beauty of the stars
are helpless against his greater power.
Already begins the wrinkle to cut;
Over all stands the worm in wait
And dust and ash are all that remain:
Because black and sad
the highest trump
over all that moves
is Jack of Spades

L’Envoi
Sure all is just a joke!
We play in the comedy together
Blindfolded with a shroud
Which itself gives shadow from the sun.
What do we mourn therefore?
Violin and flute still make sound:
And the night ahead is still long.
Even if we can never reach fulfillment,
Still shines the eye and glows the skin
Which makes the whole winter a time of flowers
Thus unlearning
we laugh nevertheless together
with each turn
of Jack of Spades

Persevering (talk)Farrell Jan 31 2011 4:27 central US time

Speaking for myself, I think Robert Zimmerman did a great job of translating (and slightly elaborating) "Skoppensboer," as follows:

"Lily, Rosemary And The Jack Of Hearts"

The festival was over and the boys were all planning for a fall
The cabaret was quiet except for the drilling in the wall
The curfew had been lifted and the gambling wheel shut down
Anyone with any sense had already left town
He was standing in the doorway looking like the Jack of Hearts.

He moved across the mirrored room "Set it up for everyone" he said
Then everyone commenced to do what they were doin' before he turned their heads
Then he walked up to a stranger and he asked him with a grin
"Could you kindly tell me friend what time the show begins ?"
Then he moved into the corner face down like the Jack of Hearts.

Backstage the girls were playing five card stud by the stairs
Lily had two queens she was hoping for a third to match her pair
Outside the streets were filling up, the window was open wide
A gentle breeze was blowing, you could feel it from inside
Lily called another bet and drew up the Jack of Hearts.

Big Jim was no one's fool, he owned the town's only diamond mine
He made his usual entrance looking so dandy and so fine
With his bodyguards and silver cane and every hair in place
He took whatever he wanted to and he laid it all to waste
But his bodyguards and silver cane were no match for the Jack of Hearts.

Rosemary combed her hair and took a carriage into town
She slipped in through the side door looking like a queen without a crown
She fluttered her false eyelashes and whispered in his ear
"Sorry darling, that I'm late", but he didn't seem to hear
He was starring into space over at the Jack of Hearts.

"I know I've seen that face somewhere" Big Jim was thinking to himself
"Maybe down in Mexico or a picture up on somebodys shelf"
But then the crowd began to stamp their feet and the house lights did dim
And in the darkness of the room there was only Jim and him
Starring at the butterfly who just drew the Jack of Hearts.

Lily was a princess she was fair-skinned and precious as a child
She did whatever she had to do she had that certain flash every time she smiled
She'd come away from a broken home had lots of strange affairs
With men in every walk of life which took her everywhere
But she's never met anyone quite like the Jack of Hearts.

The hanging judge came in unnoticed and was being wined and dined
The drilling in the wall kept up but no one seemed to pay it any mind
It was known all around that Lily had Jim's ring
And nothing would ever come between Lily and the king
No nothing ever would except maybe the Jack of Hearts.

Rosemary started drinking hard and seeing her reflection in the knife
She was tired of the attention tired of playing the role of Big Jim's wife
She had done a lot of bad things even once tried suicide
Was looking to do just one good deed before she died
She was gazing to the future riding on the Jack of Hearts.

Lily took her dress off and buried it away
"Has your luck turn out" she laughed at him'.
"Well I guess you must have known it would someday
Be careful not to touch the wall there's a brand new coat of paint
I'm glad to see you're still alive you're looking like a saint"
Down the hallway footsteps were coming for the Jack of Hearts.

The backstage manager was pacing all around by his chair
"There's something funny going on" he said " I can just feel it in the air"
He went to get the hanging judge but the hanging judge was drunk
As the leading actor hurried by in the costume of a monk
There was no actor anywhere better than the Jack of Hearts.

MISSING VERSE

Lily's arms were locked around the man that she dearly loved to touch,
She forgot all about the man she couldn't stand who hounded her so much.
"I've missed you so," she said to him, and he felt she was sincere,
But just beyond the door he felt jealousy and fear.
Just another night in the life of the Jack of Hearts.

END OF MISSING VERSE

No one knew the circumstance, but they say it happened pretty quick
The door to the dressing room burst open a cold revolver clicked
And big Jim was standing there ya couldn't say surprised
Rosemary right beside him steady in her eyes
She was with big Jim but she was leaning to the Jack of Hearts.

Two doors down the boys finally made it through the wall
And cleaned out the bank safe it's said that they got off with quite a haul
In the darkness by the riverbed they waited on the ground
For one more member who had business back in town
But they couldn't go no further without the Jack of Hearts.

The next day was hanging day the sky was overcast and black
Big Jim lay covered up killed by a penknife in the back
And Rosemary on the gallows she didn't even blink
The hanging judge was sober he hadn't had a drink
The only person on the scene missing was the Jack of Hearts.

The cabaret was empty now a sign said. "Closed for repair"
Lily had already taken all of the dye out of her hair
She was thinking about her father who she was rarely saw
Thinking about Rosemary and thinking about the law
But most of all she was thinking about the Jack of Hearts.

I especially like "the leading actor hurried by in the costume of a monk -- There was no actor anywhere better than the Jack of Hearts!"

However, for impact, I still prefer the Marais version.

Beefart says: Good work- and important work- is suddenly being done on all sides here. Let a thousand flowers bloom. Do not make the mistake of assuming that, because we are held by the self-appointed status quo to be dabblers in art, our insights are trivial. We dwergies have voices too. Your opinions have opened up my mind. That may mean nothing, since what remains of my mind has been almost perpetually pissed since 1965 :)..... But I shall reflect and answer in due course. pietopper

Beefart, not long afterwards, upon reflection, says: The teachers who gave me the benefit of their opinions forty years ago were wrong. I was wrong. Farrell and Pietopper are closer to the truth. The poem has indeed to be seen in the context of the Boer War and the scorched earth policy of the British, who were burning the dry crops of the Boers in late summer, immediately prior to harvest. My translation will have to be rewritten. Farrell and others have produced great insights. Anybody interested in a joint effort to produce a definitive version- a meeting of minds?

I like that, and I do believe Farrell will too, if he ever figures out how to track conversations on Wikipedia ;-)

I have also, on several occasions started (and then abandoned) a translation of "Raka," NP van Wyk Louw's epic poem. This is another important piece of work that has been widely misunderstood (and reviled) The common and trivial interpretation is that it depicts a struggle between whit (civilization) and black (barbarism.) Indeed the Apartheid government encouraged this interpretation and used the poem as a propaganda tool on every possible occasion, much to the poet's disgust.

My own belief is that the poem refers to the daily struggle within all of us, the struggle between logic and emotion, between passion and pragmatism. Especially the first and last lines tells me that I am on the right track. Women know how to value emotion, which is why they notice Raka first. Also, as we know, emotion always wins out over logic, which is why Raka defeats Koki, and will never be denied again "the narrow gate that nevermore will be closed" pietopper (talk) 12:14, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

beware the missing verse

I have inserted above in "Lily, Rosemary And The Jack Of Hearts", the crucial missing verse only sung on special occasions, when Zimmerman and friends really, really, wanted the song to be understood. It of course clarifies the whole song, and everything just falls into place, no? If I ever found myself fully understanding Zimmerman at all times, I would be frightened I had crossed some line into a dimension from which I was not going to be able to get back.

I still can't figure out WIKI. I can't tell if you wrote about Beefart above, or if Beefart is talking about himself in the third person. Not that I find that strange, it's something I tend to do myself, although I generally use the third person plural.
--Persevering (talk) 01:27, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

(talk) 04:21, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

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Wiki Loves Monuments in South Africa

Dear WikiProject South Africa Wikipedians

This is an urgent call from Wikimedia South Africa. We are currently working hard on the South African side of the exciting international photographic competition, Wiki Loves Monuments [1]. We have been planning to make this national competition really take off, but to do so, we need your help! The competition starts on the 1st September, and we need your help now! If you are interested in being part of or can help the Wiki Loves Monuments national organising team, then please join here [ http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2012_in_South_Africa]. If you have limited time, but want to help out at an upload marathon at a heritage site near you, please then contact either Lourie [louriepieterse@yahoo.com] or Isla [islahf@africacentre.net]. We look forward to hearing from you!"

Kind regards, Lourie

Sent by Lucia Bot in 14:03, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Roger Fenton

My change was neither unwarranted nor incorrect. You clearly feel very strongly about the subject and therefore have not provided a balanced or neutral viewpoint, you have clearly gone out of your way to change one word to give the event more weight.

In fact I agree with you, the wording is odd and neither "ambushed" nor "massacred" is used on either the page of the poem or the historical event. However, not everyone is a student of history, it is clearly very much in dispute and the definition of "massacred" that you have provided does not adequately describe the event. The onus is not on me to find more appropriate wording, if you would like to change the wording, I suggest you change the whole sentence to something neutral that merely references the site and poem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chustuck (talk • contribs) 20:14, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

I always wanted to meet the person who dishes out onus's. Well met. Just for the sake of curiosity: what exactly is this great "dispute" regarding the events of the charge of the Light Brigade? I always thought it was a pretty straightforward thing, extensively analysed and recorded. pietopper (talk) 21:29, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that minor fix

Thanks for fixing that broken link, Pietopper.

I don't know if you're knowledgable on the subject - but the Lamarr page contains numerous attributions to websites that all derive their information from the same basic error regarding Spread Spectrum. I'm too connected to this issue (emotionally) to make these changes now; but the entire issue is based on original research never published by a reliable source. The EFF award (while nice) wasn't academically tested and the Lamarr couldn't (apparently) understand the most basic concepts behind the invention. Other technology also attributed to this patent was developed quite separately and without any reference to that patent so to say that Lamarr/Antheil invented WiFI, CMDA or any of that is glossing over history with a comfortable myth.Smidoid (talk) 21:25, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed that you are quite passionate about the subject. I don't have a dog in that fight -- I mostly go around fixing broken things and removing dead links. pietopper (talk) 21:32, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm passionate about the truth (and I got into this particular spat because I was accused of being a liar). ;-) It's pretty difficult to fix Wikipedia when the general public (to which most editors belong) all tend to follow the shortest path. (Marc) Smidoid (talk) 14:45, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. The problem with "truth" is that it relies on facts. Wikipedia (by definition) relies on references. Sometimes the facts match the references. Sometimes they sort of match. Sometimes they don't. Now this becomes very murky when you are dealing with history, and especially with judging or evaluating people. Take Ghandi. Most people would be appalled if you described him as a racist. Yet, the facts (his own written words) support that -- by today's standards, by today's interpretation of his words and the associated facts.

It seems to me that she was to some extent involved in this invention (if there was such, another question). How much? Who knows. Maybe the inventor was her lover, and she supported him. Maybe she had some trivial insight, or made some comment, that created an "aha" moment.pietopper (talk) 15:16, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Af.wikpedia.org

Hallo, het jy al oorweeg om hieraan by te dra? Die wiki het die afgelope jare sterk gegroei en baie besoekers getrek. Groete, --Michael (talk) 11:43, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

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Hello, Pietopper. Voting in the 2018 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 3 December. All users who registered an account before Sunday, 28 October 2018, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Thursday, 1 November 2018 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2018 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)