User talk:Pppery/Archive 12

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Archive 10

Re: Template:flaglist+link

Latest comment: 3 years ago17 comments2 people in discussion

Concerning Template:flaglist+link. I was hoping User:GKFX would work on the asterisk solution that we had discussed here:

But looking at his user contributions it looks like GKFX has been taking a break since Aug 18, 2021.

Maybe you can work on it? See some examples of the asterisk solution:

Currently it has not been incorporated into any flag templates, other than their sandbox templates.

Can the asterisk solution be added to other templates? Such as {{flag+link}}? I notice on that template though that "expensive parser function calls" are a problem. I think that GKFX said that {{flagg}} had less problems with that? --Timeshifter (talk) 03:39, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

A few thoughts about that idea:

Several uses of {{flaglist+link}} support two different specific link targets. For example, List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita links to "Income of COUNTRY" if that exists, otherwise "Economy of COUNTRY" if that exists, and otherwise a generic link to the country. How would this interact with the asterisk system? {{flag+link}} doesn't support that system either, but I've written code to do so its sandbox already.
Checking if a page exists is an expensive parser function, no matter whether that check comes from {{flagg}} or {{flag+link}}, or somewhere else. {{flaglist+link}} is missing the warning, but also uses them. I don't believe there is a serious expensive parser function call problem anywhere, but if there is it is orthogonal to anything having to do with asterisks.
Adding a parameter to one of the templates in question to support adding an asterisk to the link text is trivial, however it feels a bit like an improper self-reference to me. Also, the replacement run I was doing was done using AWB and could in theory be done by a bot, whereas adding the target to the asterisks is significantly more manual effort.
There seems to, by my reading of the discussion, clear consensus to get rid of the double links, and no clear consensus on what to replace them with.

* Pppery * _{it has begun...} 04:27, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Can you point me to an example of a sandbox table using the {{flag+link}} sandbox code using asterisks that you created? I want to see how you did it. Then I want to experiment with a table in one of my sandboxes.

I am a user, not a coder. So I am looking for an asterisk solution using whatever flag template is easiest for you to adapt. Or a new flag template altogether. Once there is a flag template using an asterisk solution, and not just its sandbox, then I will start using it.

Someone may attempt to delete it via TFD, but I don't think it will succeed. That is because I believe it is less confusing to the reader than any existing flag template with an option for more than one link choice connected to the country name. After I use it in a few article tables, I may put it up for TFD myself to get a definitive answer, or to get it improved enough to keep it. --Timeshifter (talk) 06:35, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

@Timeshifter: Sorry for the delay in response. I've now gone ahead and added support for the asterisk to Module:Flagg (using the same syntax as you used in your sandbox), and converted the table on Northern America as an example (Special:Diff/1046064659). * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 19:44, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

And, to be clear, my plan is to do a similar semi-automated conversion of the remaining ~70 articles that use Template:Flaglist+link to that format at some point, unless you or someone else objects * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 19:51, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Looks great! Thanks! No objection.

In preview mode in User:Timeshifter/Sandbox156 I removed "sandbox" via find-and-replace from all the table entries. The table looks the same. So {{flagg}} is now working the same as {{flagg/sandbox}}. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:33, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I've now converted List of countries by proven oil reserves, List of countries by average wage, List of countries by total wealth, List of countries by public debt, List of countries by real GDP growth rate, Freedom in the World, and List of countries by incarceration rate, and Tobacco consumption by country. I'll wait a few days before continuing the conversion to give watchers of those pages a chance to notice. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:35, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I edit List of countries by incarceration rate. It looks great. Thanks again. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:59, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I've now converted about 15 more articles, and fixed a few bugs in the handling of countries whose name takes a "the" in my conversion process. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 00:30, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

the=y parameter. Template:flaglist+link

I did some tests. I created redirect lists for the "Crime in" and "Incarceration in" articles:

User:Timeshifter/Sandbox162

{{flagg|us*eft|DR Congo|pref=Incarceration in|pref2=Crime in|the=y}}

{{flagg|us*eft|pref=Incarceration in|pref2=Crime in|the=y|DR Congo}}

{{flagg|us*eft|pref=Incarceration in|pref2=Crime in|DR Congo}}

style="text-align:left"| DR Congo *

I like to do mass find-and-replace as described here:

Help:Table#Adding flags and linking country names in country lists

I can convert a plain country list table to one with flags and links with a single click. For example, by using the above highlighted wikitext in the find-and-replace formula. The 3rd line of the above wikitext has all the added info before the country name.

Having to manually add the=y to many entries really slows things down.

As a subpage to Template:flagg we could create a redirect list for those countries, and keep that list permanently, and not overwrite it. Such as Template:flagg/Redirects. Crime in. Redirects are not deleted as long as they are being used somewhere on Wikipedia, including in subpages and sandboxes. Anybody could activate a redirect as new "Crime in" articles are created.

I do a similar thing for some country lists that I or others update annually. I keep the initial sandbox that I use to create or update the new list.

The country names with {{flaglist}} for example may have some red links due to the lack of some Country data templates. I create a redirect to the correct country data template. I save the sandbox and do not overwrite it. Here are just a few of the many permanent redirects from my watchlist:

So I don't have to tediously and slowly recreate those redirects for list updates that use those country names in the sources. It is much easier and faster now for me and others to update many different lists that come out with new data on an annual basis for example. --Timeshifter (talk) 09:15, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

I substituted {{flagg}} for {{flaglist+link}} here:

List of U.S. states and territories by incarceration and correctional supervision rate.

* indicates "Incarceration in STATE" or "Crime in STATE" links.

It was fast to do this via mass find-and-replace inside the wikitext editing window.

--Timeshifter (talk) 09:35, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

You don't need to worry about converting it yourself, as I've wrote code to automatically do the conversion using AWB (replacing {{flaglist+link with {{subst:#invoke:Sandbox/pppery|flaglist if you are interested, which does handle adding |the=y when needed). I just hadn't gotten to that article on my list yet. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:05, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

And the manual additions of |the=y I did yesterday were just fixing a bug in the script I was using that caused "|the=y" not to be added when it should have been. Anyway, I've now converted another ~15 articles. I'll do the rest either later today or tomorrow. If you want to create redirects and not use the parameter, I obviously can't stop you (and I won't try), but I don't see the point myself. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:37, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

I assume AWB doesn't create redirects? Are you saying that your script checks for links with and without "the"? And then adds the=y as needed? Can you link to the script page? I am curious.

I'm interested in other country lists that need flags and specialized links using the single-click method described here:

Help:Table#Adding flags and linking country names in country lists

I add an additional step.

Click on the wikitext source editing link. Click on "Advanced" in the editing toolbar. Then click on the search and replace icon on the right. Put a check in the box called "Treat search string as a regular expression." Fill in the "Search for" box with: `(\\|-.\n\\|\s)([^\\|\n]*)` Fill in the "replace with" box with: `$1{{flaglist\|$2}}` Then click "Replace all". Nearly all countries will be linked and will have flags.

The additional step: Uncheck the regular expression box and do a simple bulk replace:

Replace {{flaglist| with (for example):

{{flagg|us*eft|pref=Wealth in|pref2=Economy of|

I did something similar here in the main country table today:

List of countries by wealth per adult

I noticed that {{flagg}} created a link to Economy of The Bahamas, but it did so without the=y as a parameter:

{{flagg|us*eft|pref=Wealth in|pref2=Economy of|Bahamas}}

style="text-align:left"| Bahamas *

So the=y is no longer needed? That would be great. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:26, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

What Template:Flaglist+link did was check if the country was on a specified list of countries (documented at Template:Country article), and add "the" if it is. My AWB code does the same thing, adding |the=y if the country is in the same list. The code is Module:Sandbox/pppery/flaglist. The Bahamas is an unusual case since that is the title of the article, not the regular case. If what you are trying to do isn't just convert Template:Flaglist+link automatically, but add flags and links to articles that don't currently have them, then I'd recommend going ahead with the original plan of creating redirects (and sorry for misunderstanding you earlier). * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 19:41, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I have similar lists that I will expand from Template:Country article:

User:Timeshifter/Sandbox94

User:Timeshifter/Sandbox162

It is easy and fast to copy the list to new sandboxes, and replace all the links with other specialized country links. Then I can create redirects as needed.

--Timeshifter (talk) 21:49, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Conversion Finished. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:41, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

"Template:User:BoldLuis/tlxl" listed at Redirects for discussion

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Template:User:BoldLuis/tlxl. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 22#Template:User:BoldLuis/tlxl until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 22:15, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

"Template:User:Destroyeraa/Editwar" listed at Redirects for discussion

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Template:User:Destroyeraa/Editwar. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 22#Template:User:Destroyeraa/Editwar until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 22:23, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Module:Uses TemplateStyles

Latest comment: 3 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion

Hey there! Can you help me translate the aforementioned module? I already dealt with its /config subpage but it doesn't help with the words that are used in the template. Specifically This module uses TemplateStyles. I do understand it to be somehow related to Module:TNT but that's as far as my knowledge goes apparently. Tried working it out on my own on Commons/Mediawiki but... I saw your name on the list of its contributors and thought maybe you can help. :) - Klein Muçi (talk) 18:29, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

@Klein Muçi: You need to add the appropriate Albanian translation to c:Data:I18n/Uses TemplateStyles.tab * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:30, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Solved. Thank you! Follow up question: Why is this whole process utilized at Commons instead of MediaWiki? In the minds of most wikiusers Commons = Photos + other media. - Klein Muçi (talk) 18:49, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Where should it be instead? I would think that, in the minds of most wikiusers, MediaWiki.org = Documentation about the software. There was some discussion about this at c:Commons:Village pump/Proposals/Archive/2016/04#Tabular data storage for Commons! back in 2016. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:53, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Hmm, I see. This is a huge step towards module/template globalization so I'm excited to learn about it. You're right on your assumption on MediaWiki. My second guess would be Meta (or maybe the Abstract Wikipedia could be an altogether better place when that happens) but I'm just glad this function exists. - Klein Muçi (talk) 19:00, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Module:Lua banner

Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

Hello! Take a look at the Lua banner here. You get the sandbox version of a module linked on its own, duplicating results. Is that indented? If so, can you explain to me why? - Klein Muçi (talk) 09:18, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Examining it closer, I think it is intended because of that module's specific use. - Klein Muçi (talk) 09:30, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, it explicitly mentions that it uses the sandbox in the invocation of {{Lua}}. So, it's not a bug in {{Lua}}. It might be a bug in Module:Cs1 documentation support, but I'm not familiar enough with that module to understand whether it is or not. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 13:34, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

No, that module mostly serves to compare the live version with its sandbox counterpart, both being treated as separate modules so I believe it is not a bug there either. I was just hurried in my question. Thanks for trying to help! :)) - Klein Muçi (talk) 00:42, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Template:User wikipedia/RC Patrol/sandbox

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

Hello, Pppery,

When you tag a page for deletion (CSD, PROD, AFD/RFD/MFD/etc.), please post a notice on the talk page of the page creator, even for a nonsense page like this. If you are using Twinkle, please set your Preferences to "Notify page creator" and make sure the checkboxes for all of the CSD criteria are checked. Many thanks for all of the work you do! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:15, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

And the same goes for Template:Wade–Giles1. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:19, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

`{{cat main}}`

Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

@Pppery:@Nihiltres: Note that {{cat main}} is currently broken for all cats that dont' supply a parameter, e.g., see Category:Intention. This likely affects more than 50% of categories. I suggest that you restore the last working versions and do appropriate testing in a sandbox prior to releasing your changes.Dpleibovitz (talk) 15:47, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Reverted sorry for the screw-up. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:51, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Lesson learned for the future: the code pages and pages[1] or "Wikipedia" does not do what you expect. In this context pages is always true (since empty tables are true in Lua), so it is effectively the same as pages[1] or "Wikipedia", whereas I (and I assume Nihiltres since they wrote the code that way) assumed it was a ternary condition and didn't evaluate pages[1] if pages was empty. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:10, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing that; that was a brain fart on my part to use pages and not #pages > 0. I've been bouncing between too many programming languages recently. {{Nihiltres |talk |edits}} 21:45, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Preempting TfD

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I have no objection to this edit, but re your edit summary, there's nothing saying that an article's editors can't establish a local consensus to remove a template, independent of any TfD. In this case, five editors including myself have expressed the opinion on talk that the source of the unparsed-text bug should be removed, and none have expressed an opinion to the contrary. Even if the TfD closes with an emphatic keep, it would still be reasonable to remove the template from that particular article based on local consensus. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 16:57, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Valid point. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:06, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

RfA 2021 review update

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Thanks so much for participating in Phase 1 of the RfA 2021 review. 8 out of the 21 issues discussed were found to have consensus. Thanks to our closers of Phase 1, Primefac and Wugapodes.

The following had consensus support of participating editors:

Corrosive RfA atmosphere
The atmosphere at RfA is deeply unpleasant. This makes it so fewer candidates wish to run and also means that some members of our community don't comment/vote.
Level of scrutiny
Many editors believe it would be unpleasant to have so much attention focused on them. This includes being indirectly a part of watchlists and editors going through your edit history with the chance that some event, possibly a relatively trivial event, becomes the focus of editor discussion for up to a week.
Standards needed to pass keep rising
It used to be far easier to pass RfA however the standards necessary to pass have continued to rise such that only "perfect" candidates will pass now.
Too few candidates
There are too few candidates. This not only limits the number of new admin we get but also makes it harder to identify other RfA issues because we have such a small sample size.
"No need for the tools" is a poor reason as we can find work for new admins

The following issues had a rough consensus of support from editors:

Lifetime tenure (high stakes atmosphere)
Because RfA carries with it lifetime tenure, granting any given editor sysop feels incredibly important. This creates a risk adverse and high stakes atmosphere.
Admin permissions and unbundling
There is a large gap between the permissions an editor can obtain and the admin toolset. This brings increased scrutiny for RFA candidates, as editors evaluate their feasibility in lots of areas.
RfA should not be the only road to adminship
Right now, RfA is the only way we can get new admins, but it doesn't have to be.

Please consider joining the brainstorming which will last for the next 1-2 weeks. This will be followed by Phase 2, a 30 day discussion to consider solutions to the problems identified in Phase 1.

There are 2 future mailings planned. One when Phase 2 opens and one with the results of Phase 2. To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

Best, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:08, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians who do not wish to become a Wikipedia administrator

Latest comment: 3 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Hello, Pppery,

Categories can not just be deleted via speedy deletion until they are empty. There are 499 pages in this category and deleting the category page will still leave 499 in this category, there just won't be an official category page so that will leave 499 pages with red link categories which is to be avoided (WP:REDLINK). The pages have to be removed from the category first and, in this case, the template that adds this category has to be changed. I looked into this yesterday and I thought the category had been removed from the template but I guess it was re-added or the category was added to a new template that filled this category. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:49, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

@Liz: I'm well aware of how categories work, but thought it was the responsibility of the deleting admin to empty the category, not the tagger. Me emtpying the category would be improperly assuming that the deletion would be granted. In fact, I've been G4-ing user categories since August 2020 and no one's complained about this before. If you want me to depopulate the category, I would be happy to do so, but doing so would create a mess if the deletion was declined for unrelated reasons. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 00:53, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

The category has now been emptied. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:12, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

St. Thomas Church, Thumpoly

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Hi. Thanks for your work on St. Thomas Church, Thumpoly. I had left the infobox with many blank fields because I hoped someone else might see a field like "architectural style" and be able to fill it in, or perhaps to add a photo. I suppose I should have deleted fields that will never apply to this church, but in general blank infobox fields that might be useful in the future are worth keeping. Perhaps someone will find more information about the church while working on Roman Catholic Diocese of Alleppey or Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Trivandrum. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 19:00, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Valid point. I removed them (while making a substantive edit to fix a Lua error) because there were so many blank infobox parameters relative to the size of the article that it seemed overwhelming. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:24, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Help with the chart module

Latest comment: 3 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion

Hello! :)

Some days ago you helped me better understand what was wrong with the shortcut template. Is there any chance you might be able to help me on this case as well? - Klein Muçi (talk) 15:40, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:57, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! What was wrong in TL;DR? That chart was actually fine until IABot started malfunctioning and grew one of the categories over the top. - Klein Muçi (talk) 22:04, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

The chart was so lopsided (because there were over 3,000 redundant parameters and small numbers of other CS1 errors) that the calculation for what height to give to the bars ended up producing a negative number of pixels for some bars. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:22, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

I see. I really hope IABot can fix some of the redundant parameters once it is fixed. Thanks again! - Klein Muçi (talk) 23:11, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Healthcare in Ireland

Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

See the Ireland link in this article:

List of countries by total health expenditure per capita

Unused Templates Task Force

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I didn't tag you on the WikiProject Templates talk page, but if you want to participate and join the task force idea since you're active at Tfd's, take a look at if you get the chance. Do you need a link to it? --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 23:19, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I was aware already, but I don't see the need to support or join any formal task force. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 23:30, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

PEIS limit user scripts

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Hi. Thanks for fixing the limit on Narendra Modi. Are you aware of any userscripts for assisting with dealing the PEIS limits? — DaxServer (talk) 09:20, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

No, I do it manually (and somewhat tediously). * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:23, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Module:RFX

Latest comment: 3 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Maaaybe you have extra-extra free time and are interested in following this rabbit hole? :P

As you'll see, you're not the first editor I ask for help in there so don't worry at all if you can't help. Fully understandable. :) - Klein Muçi (talk) 23:01, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't think I'm interested in doing this (as you can see, I haven't gotten around to it in two weeks). * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:59, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, don't worry at all. Fully understandable. :)) - Klein Muçi (talk) 22:15, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

RfA Reform 2021 Phase 2 has begun

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16:13, 31 October 2021 (UTC)