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Rana vs Lithobates

Latest comment: 9 years ago55 comments6 people in discussion

I noticed you just made a spate of edits restoring Lithobates pages to Rana. Do you have specific citations to support this? I saw Stuart 08 and Pauly et al 09 on the Lithobates page, but the other recent large frog phylogeny I know of, Isaac et al 2012, uses Lithobates, though it has a less taxonomic bent that Frost 06 did. Is there a new or more recent reference that definitively restores these genera to Rana? HCA (talk) 02:56, 15 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

The source of amphibian taxonomy in Wikipedia is the Amphibian Species of the World. These edits are contra ASW. Also IUCN — still the main source for many amphibian articles — follows ASW (with some minor exceptions). Further, the most recent "Scientific and Standard English Names of Amphibians and Reptiles of North America north of Mexico, with Comments Regarding Confidence in our Understanding" from 2012 uses Lithobates. Of important websites, only the AmphibiaWeb does not use Lithobates, but the use of Lithobates is dominant elsewhere. So these changes from Lithobates to Rana are unconstructive and should be reverted. Micromesistius (talk) 05:20, 15 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

You might also like to consult the 2012 article entitled SCIENTIFIC AND STANDARD ENGLISH NAMES OF AMPHIBIANS AND REPTILES OF NORTH AMERICA NORTH OF MEXICO, WITH COMMENTS REGARDING CONFIDENCE IN OUR UNDERSTANDING. SEVENTH EDITION, published by the Society for the Study of Amphibians and Reptiles and supported by the following groups: American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists, Canadian Association of Herpetology, Canadian Amphibian and Reptile Conservation Network, Partners in Amphibian and Reptile Conservation, Society for the Study of Amphibians and Reptiles, and The Herpetologists’ League. In this publication they refute your unsupported and inaccurate assertion that "This proposed change has since been rejected in all recent systematic reviews ...". In this publication the authors (18 in all) state "The revision by Che et al. (2007, Mol. Phylogenet. Evol. 42: 1–13) which recognized Lithobates as a genus, we think best reflects the majority opinion of members of the international community who are actively working on large-scale ranid relationships ...".

Someone else has also pointed out that the Integrated Taxonomic Information System (ITIS) also supports the Lithobates genus. See this [1].

Dger (talk) 00:04, 18 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

All the recent primary literature and taxonomic revisions use Rana rather than Lithobates. AmphibiaWeb follows the primary literature; those other sources cited above are secondary sources that have not yet caught up to the most recent systematic studies. Lithobates is clearly defined as a subgenus of Rana, for just four species. If Lithobates is removed from Rana, it clearly makes Rana paraphyletic. There is a large revision of Rana in press from a large international group of anuran systematists, including the Che at al. authors noted above, and it completely supports the most recent analyses of Rana, cited on the revised pages and by AmphibiaWeb, for sinking Lithobates as a subgenus (for the Rana palmipes group) within Rana. Primary sources clearly have priority over secondary lists, and the secondary lists are split in any case. The only previous justification given for ignoring most of the primary literature was the citation of Che et al. 2007 (even though that was not the most recent revision of the group). As Che et al. now support the sinking of Lithobates within Rana, even that relatively weak excuse for recognizing Lithobates as a genus, and ignoring the more recent primary literature, has disappeared. –Ranapipiens

Before you make any more changes to the frog taxonomy I suggest you wait for the "in press" article(s) to be published. Wikipedia is meant to follow published literature rather than anticipate it. Cheers. Dger (talk) 15:52, 19 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Yes, and the changes I made DO follow the existing primary literature! I made the point about the "in press" article by Che et al. above because their earlier paper was the ONLY reason given by Frost (in the English names list cited above) for not following all the other recent primary literature, by Hillis et al., Stuart et al., Bossuyt et al., Wiens et al., and Pauly et al. (all papers cited on the various Rana pages in question). I did not cite the "in press" article on any of the pages in question; instead, these pages cite published current primary literature on the group as reasons for using Rana as the correct genus. It is true that Che et al. 2007 followed the suggested scheme by Frost et al. 2006 (although Che et al. 2007 reported NO new data on the frogs called Lithobates by Frost, so they were just following Frost), but every primary systematics paper (i.e., the ones that actually deal with new data and analyses of the relevant species) since that time has NOT used or supported the recognition of Lithobates as a genus. The "in press" paper I mentioned (in this discussion) that includes the authors from Che et al. just shows that even those authors now support the other current taxonomic studies, so Che et al.'s now outdated 2007 paper should NOT be used as an excuse to recognize something that was suggested back in 2006, especially since that arrangement has been rejected in EVERY primary analysis since then. There are no new analyses of Rana that support Frost's 2006 arrangement, and many that reject it. Furthermore, the recognition of Lithobates as a genus is simply not supported by any of the systematists who actually work on Rana. So, it is inaccurate and misleading (to the public, who rely on Wikipedia or lists of species rather than the primary literature) to use Lithobates as a genus. Furthermore, removing Lithobates as a genus not only makes Wikipedia consistent with the primary literature, it also makes it consistent with AmphibiaWeb and Wikispecies. The only secondary lists that use Lithobates are the ones controlled by Frost, who clearly wishes to retain his now outdated 2006 taxonomy. Finally, for anyone who wishes to use the taxonomic name (say, for example, to look up one of these species on GenBank), they will find that those sources follow the primary literature, and use Rana rather than Lithobates.–Ranapipiens

For the sake of clarity, can you list the references here, so we don't have to go hunting among the various pages for them? It would make it a lot easier if we had a master list in one place. And if the "in press" paper is sufficiently conclusive, maybe it would be best just to wait until it actually comes out? Lastly, it'd be cautious about reading too much into non-taxonomic sources like Genbank - I know plenty of physiologists (myself included) who continue to use "old" names as long as possible if the species is a common experimental model, just to keep everything aligned with the prior literature. HCA (talk) 02:35, 20 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

The published references mentioned above are listed below. The "in press" paper doesn't change the taxonomy; it confirms the existing primary literature in showing that Lithobates is embedded within Rana and the recognition of Lithobates as a genus would make Rana paraphyletic. So, when it comes out, no changes to the existing taxonomy (which uses Rana already) will be necessary. Being conservative about changing generic names so that the names continue to match the prior literature (especially important in model organisms like Rana) is a good thing; we should only change generic names when they are genuinely misleading (a point made strongly by Pauly et al., 2009; see below). That is yet another argument in favor of retaining Rana and not changing all these species names to Lithobates, as >99% of the literature on the relevant species uses Rana already. Moreover, the use of Lithobates in the sense used by Frost et al. caused even greater confusion in the taxonomic literature, since the name had previously been defined as a subgenus for a smaller group of frogs, namely the Rana palmipes group. So (1) the change was unnecessary, even at the time, since Rana was already monophyletic; (2) recognition of Lithobates as a genus actually created problems, since it made the remaining species of Rana paraphyletic; (3) the proposed change to Lithobates created unnecessary taxonomic confusion among many common species used as model organisms; (4) Frost et al.'s use of Lithobates was inconsistent with previous definitions of the name; and (5) experts who study the group have not adopted and do not recognize the proposed change to Lithobates. So, I don't know how the situation could be much clearer.

So, I'll need some time to examine these references, but in the meantime, I think there's some other considerations that are falling through the cracks, namely the need for verifiability(WP:V) and to avoid original research(WP:OR). Basically, even if Rana is truly "correct"/"preferred", WP needs some sort of specific source that's more direct than criticisms of the prior move or lack of use, something definitive and widely accepted, which flatly states something to the effect of "We consider Frost et al's 2006 taxon of Lithobates to be invalid for reasons X, Y and Z, and thus we refer these taxa back to Rana". Pauly et al 2009 seems close to this, if not exactly this, but like I said, I need to read the papers in what little free time I have. The whole idea is that WP should not be making judgement calls on contentious issues (whether taxonomy or anything else), but rather merely reflecting the current consensus scientific viewpoint. With taxonomy, WP tends to be extra conservative, since it not only involves information but also potentially disruptive page moves, hence the preference for 3rd-party databases like ITIS. HCA (talk) 21:34, 20 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Another problem is that there likely is a WP:Conflict of interest here. Rana vs. Lithobates is an old controversy outside Wikipedia, see e.g. Pauly et al. 2009 mentioned in the references. User:Ranapipiens is knowledgeable about the topic, and the access to a paper before it is online (the user has yet to provide the bibliographic reference for that particular work) suggests that he/she may be one of the authors. It seems quite clear that he/she has a strong stake in this controversy, and we cannot let such user alone to decide the position of Wikipedia. In my opinion, the best solution is then to stick to our chosen default source of taxonomy, which is the Amphibian Species of the World. If strong evidence to swith from Lithobates to Rana is published, ASW will reflect that in due course of time. While the person behind ASW is the same Frost as in Frost et al. 2006, ASW is updated to reflect developments in amphibian taxonomy, also those that run counter to Frost et al. 2006. That ASW has a good standing is witnessed by its use as the source of taxonomy for both ITIS and IUCN. AmphibiaWeb, on the other hand, has a different focus (more on ecology). It is also much less transparent in its taxonomic choices. Micromesistius (talk) 18:08, 21 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Yes, clearly Frost does have a clear conflict of interest here. As noted above, the currently published literature on these frogs is not reflected in ASW (Frost) in this case (instead, it follows the outdated Frost paper). Wikipedia should, of course, reflect the primary literature, not secondary lists like ASW. The in press paper by Che et al. is not relevant to any of the discussion except the point made above, which was the justification used by Frost to ignore the published primary literature on Rana.

Wikipedia does not follow the primary literature. Secondary sources are preferred. See WP:PRIMARY. The problem with using primary literature should be obvious. If Wikipedia followed primary literature everything would have been immediately moved to Lithobates in 2006, and then perhaps would bounced back and forth several times in the last 9 years. From what I can see, moves to Lithobates didn't start on Wikipedia until ca. 2012. Perhaps things should be moved back to Rana, but it's best to wait until there's consensus in the secondary literature (and there very well may be) rather than jumping every time a controversial nomenclatural proposal appears in the primary literature. Consensus in secondary literature can change back and forth as well (as it seems to have happened with Norops, leaving Wikipedia behind), but it's a good deal more stable than primary. Plantdrew (talk) 21:20, 21 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

In this case, there is a consensus in the primary literature in recognizing Rana as the appropriate genus, and the vast majority of the secondary literature is in agreement. Exactly one primary systematic paper that reviewed the relevant species, by Frost et al. 2006, ever recognized Lithobates as a genus. Since 2006, every primary source on the higher taxonomy of this group has rejected that arrangement. BUT, Frost also is the author for ASW, and he has refused to follow the literature on this issue. The majority of the secondary literature continues to use Rana (for example, see the analysis of this question in Fouquette and Dubois, 2014. A Checklist of North American Amphibians and Reptiles: The United States and Canada, 7th Ed. Volume 1—Amphibians Xlibris Publ.). This recent checklist, as well as other major secondary sources that are not controlled by Frost (such as AmphibiaWeb), continue to use Rana, following the primary literature and the general consensus of the amphibian biologists who study these frogs. So, whether one follows the primary literature and the clearly established reasons for using Rana, or the unbiased secondary sources such as the most recent published Checklist of North American Amphibians and Reptiles, or the primary website dedicated to the study of amphibians (AmphibiaWeb), or the overwhelming use in the literature, the answer is the same: none of these recognize Lithobates as a genus. Prior to my edits of the pages for these frogs, the web pages in question were a terrible mess, with most pages using a mix of different scientific names (involving both Lithobates and Rana for the same species) within the same page. This did nothing but confuse the public about the appropriate names for these species. Given the scientific consensus that recognition of Lithobates as a genus would make the genus Rana paraphyletic, and given the overwhelming use of Rana as the genus for the relevant species, it is extremely misleading and confusing to use anything except Rana for all the American true frogs. I left in place any notes that said that ASW continues to recognize Lithobates, contra the rest of the literature.Ranapipiens (talk) 03:46, 22 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

But other studies *have* used Lithobates, such as Isaac et al 2012. Plus, SSAR apparently just launched a names database for NA herps (http://ssarherps.org/cndb/) which uses Lithobates (without Frost on the committee, as far as I can tell). HCA (talk) 13:35, 22 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Isaac et al. 2012 does not include new analyses of phylogeny or provide a taxonomic framework; it is a conservation application paper that takes the taxonomy from Frost. It is not a taxonomic paper, and has no new data or analyses about the phylogeny of Rana. And the SSAR names database is simply the online version of the SSAR English names list, chaired by Frost.Ranapipiens (talk) 00:27, 23 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

What about Crother et al. 2012, "Scientific and Standard English Names of Amphibians and Reptiles of North America North of Mexico, with Comments Regarding Confidence in Our Understanding", where Frost is one of 18 coauthors? The committee is chaired by Crother, not Frost. The paper contains this statement, which we can assume to have been accurate at the time of writing: "The revision by Che et al. (2007, Mol. Phylogenet. Evol. 42: 1–13) which recognized Lithobates as a genus, we think best reflects the majority opinion of members of the international community who are actively working on large-scale ranid relationships, although Hillis, 2007 (Mol. Phylogenet. Evol. 42: 331-338) ) and Wiens et al. (2009, Evolution 63: 1217–1231) expressed reluctance to accept this taxonomy." The main counter-argument comes from an "in press" paper that we have not yet seen.

Nothing in this discussion seems to be changing the ground facts. Changing Lithobates to Rana has violated numerous WP policies (not establishing consensus for a controversial change, relying on primary literature and a source that is as yet unavailable for others, moving pages by copying contents, (undeclared) conflict of interest). Any evidence that a significant fraction of herpetologists has recognized Lithobates is discounted, but no new information is provided.

Wikipedia should not be a stage for a taxonomic fight. Changing Lithobates to Rana might turn out to be correct but we should wait until this is recognized by the secondary source that this project has chosen to follow, which at the moment is the ASW. As long as there are taxonomic disagreements, secondary sources will have to make choices that are controversial, but I do not see any reason to consider AmphibiaWeb more objective than ASW. And at very least, ASW is more transparent, containing a lengthy review of relevant literature, while AmphibiaWeb only states that "This family has recently undergone taxonomic revision and a more complete description will be posted in the near future." --Micromesistius (talk) 07:53, 23 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

In an effort to gain more insight and resolve this, I contacted a close collaborator of mine on this topic. While they will remain anonymous, they are an anuran taxonomist of several decades experience on speciose taxa of complex/contentious relationships (thus with highly relevant experience and direct familiarity with the issues). They indicated that there is not, in fact, a broad consensus against the Frost phylogeny or its associated revisions, but rather quite the opposite.

Furthermore, they alerted me to an article which Ranapipiens seems to have neglected. While leaning on Pauly et al 09 in their quest for re-establishment of Rana, Ranapipiens seems to have forgotten about the rebuttal paper: Frost D.R., McDiarmid R.W., and Mendelson, J. R. 2009. Response to the Point of View of Gregory B. Pauly, David M. Hillis, and David C. Cannatella, by the Anuran Subcommittee of the SSAR/HL/ASIH Scientific and Standard English Names List. Herpetologica 65(2), 136-153. This paper extensively criticized Pauly et al 09 on numerous grounds, addressing all major points raised by that paper. I found it at this URL (https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/70003394), but I've got academic access, so it might not be visible to all users; anyone who wants the PDF can just email me. Regardless of which is ultimately correct, this definitively shows that the objections to Lithbates have not gone unchallenged, and I am particularly curious why Ranapipiens omitted this reference from their list, especially since it is a direct response to their primary reference. HCA (talk) 20:03, 23 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Because that paper does not address any of the relevant issues discussed here, nor does it present any data regarding the recognition of Rana.Ranapipiens (talk) 00:52, 25 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

The section of Rana vs Lithobates in that paper is literally 3 pages long (2 and a bit if you don't count the figure). I have the PDF open right now, and it discusses every single one of the issues you raised, either more generally or specifically within the context of Ranidae. I suggest you re-read it. HCA (talk) 17:07, 26 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

My point was that the "response" paper contains no data or analyses. The reference list below was added at the request to add primary literature on the systematics of Rana.Ranapipiens (talk) 19:53, 29 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Nor does Pauly et al. (at least not satisfactorily, see Frost et al 2009); both are commentary pieces. You simply haven't proven your point so far. Your references include various papers that either pre-date the change (any of the pre-2006 papers and a few others which were accepted before Frost et al 2006) or mention it only in passing. The only references to tackle it "head-on" are Pauly et al 2009, which has a response paper (Frost et al 2009) but no follow-up beyond that, and a website run in part by one of the authors of the Pauly et al. 2009 paper. You are asking us to make a major taxonomic change without any papers that definitively support your points in as many words, essentially asking to violate the rules of WP:OR and WP:V. You can tell us a million reasons this should happen, and cite in-press papers all day, but wikipedia runs on WP:OR and WP:V - we need a source, a definitive primary source which doesn't have a commentary immediately disputing it, preferably dated after the 2009 dust-up. Otherwise, I will have to revert your edits, as per WP rules. HCA (talk) 20:34, 29 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

The Pauly et al. article does indeed present an analysis of Rana. In addition, the Wiens et al. 2009 article cited below (which appeared after the articles in question) also analyzes worldwide Rana and rejects Lithobates, as does all the other primary literature. Furthermore, Frost et al. was not "primary" literature with regard to the relevant species of North American Rana, as they only reanalyzed a portion of the sequences that were originally reported by Hillis and Wilcox (2005). Frost et al. reported no new data on those species. The "unsupported taxonomic change" was the one originally suggested by Frost et al., which has not been accepted by Rana systematists, or in any subsequent analyses of the respective species. Lists that are independent of Frost do not recognize Lithobates as a genus, including AmphibiaWeb (which originally followed Frost et al. in using Lithobates, and then reverted to Rana following the primary literature), and the latest 'A Checklist of North American Amphibians and Reptiles: The United States and Canada, 7th Ed. Volume 1—Amphibians' Xlibris Publ., Fouquette and Dubois, 2014 (which discusses the reasons for not recognizing Lithobates as a genus). Moreover, searches on Google show a greater than 10-fold number of links to Rana pipiens, for example, over Lithobates pipiens (and most of the latter are to pages that simply treat Lithobates pipiens as a synonym), and similar numbers apply to all of the other relevant species. So, the latest analyses, the majority opinion and usage, and the opinion of experts who work on the systematics of Rana all agree that Lithobates is not a valid genus, and that its recognition makes the rest of Rana paraphyletic. When I looked at the pages for the relevant species on Wikipedia, they were a mess, with most using Rana but others using Lithobates as the genus (although even most of the ones that used Lithobates typically had confusing uses of both names). I spent a great deal of time and effort cleaning these pages up and fixing all the inconsistencies. Under those circumstances, it would be vandalism to change the pages back to a minority viewpoint, which will then need to be changed again the next time yet another paper is published on the taxonomy of Rana.Ranapipiens (talk) 21:03, 29 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

The Pauly et al 2009 "re-analysis" has no/vague methods, and is criticized in Frost et al 2009 on this basis. That's how commentaries work - someone publishes X, another group thinks X is wrong for several reasons and states them. There may or may not be subsequent full papers with proper data etc, but commentaries are like ultra-peer-review. Weins 2009 states, "Many of the genera recognized by Frost et al. (2006) appear nonmonophyletic as well (e.g., Amolops, Glandirana, Huia, Hydrophylax, Pulchrana, Sylvirana), but some are tentatively supported (e.g., Babina, Hylarana, Lithobates, Meristogenys, Pelophylax, Rana), at least based on our sampling" (with no further statements on their taxonomic validity). Show me any other phylogeny published since then which rejects Lithobates. Not the use of Rana by physiologists like myself who never bothered to look it up, real taxonomy/phylogeny papers which give explicit reasons for their use/disuse of Lithobates. The rest of your argument is irrelevant and unsupported - google hits don't matter, the checklist you cite isn't peer-reviewed (though the SSAR one is, and uses Lithobates as of 2012), and you have given no support to the claim that "the majority opinion" favors Rana. If, as you state, the majority of Ranid systematists don't support Lithobates, where are their papers? Where are their phylogenies? Where are these "subsequent analyses" you claim?

WP:OR and WP:V mean that, no matter how convincing you may or may not be here, you need to cite something, and it needs to be stronger than what you've cited so far. HCA (talk) 21:30, 29 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

I have cited the primary papers below and on the relevant pages, and several of these were published subsequent to the opinion presented by Frost et al. 2006, which, as I've noted, presented no new data on the group in question in any case. So, if we only follow the primary literature, then we would do as AmphibiaWeb has done, and reject the use of Lithobates as a genus. I did not add a single remark on any of the pages in question without a literature reference. As noted above, recognizing Lithobates as a genus is contra the primary literature on this group, and renders the rest of Rana paraphyletic. There are several arguments that different people have made above about selecting the most appropriate name: that we should go with widespread usage, latest taxonomic revision, connection to the primary literature, and others. Every one of these falls in favor of using Rana over Lithobates. If we simply go with the last of the papers presented below that present an analysis of new data, that would be Stuart 2008 and Wiens et al. 2009, both of which use Rana rather than Lithobates. If we include the papers that include a full or partial re-analysis of the full Hillis and Wilcox (2005) data (Frost et al. 2006; Hillis, 2007; Pauly et al. 2009), then the last two of these reject the Frost et al. proposal. AmphibiaWeb considered all these papers, changed to Lithobates briefly after Frost et al. 2006 came out, and then changed back to Rana when subsequent analyses failed to support Frost et al.'s arrangement. That certainly seems like the only sensible path to follow; anything else would give preference to a proposed change that was not supported in subsequent studies.Ranapipiens (talk) 22:40, 29 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Yes, and your citations don't support your claim. You can't just slap a paper up and pretend all subsequent literature doesn't exist. And the arguments you keep making sugest you haven't even read Frost et al 2009. AmphibiaWeb is not a neutral source, as a primary contributor is an author of Pauly et al 2009, as I pointed out before. Hillis 2007 is largely procedural, without new phylogenetic data, Pauly et al 2009 presented a phylogeny of uncertain origins and methods (and were criticized by Frost et al 2009 for it). Pyron & Wiens 2011 find the AmphibiaWeb definition of Rana paraphyletic, but don't address taxonomy issues below the sub-family level, thus don't weigh in further on this issue. Several other analyses use Lithobates, but I wasn't able to find any phylogentic work using Rana for those taxa except Pyron & Wiens (who, as above, noted the AmphibiaWeb version was paraphyletic).

At this point, I'm wondering if you're even reading my comments, much less actually considering the content. Your cited papers are all either older than the suggested change, irrelevant, barely mention it, or have a rebuttal attached to them, and nothing I have been able to find on my own improves your argument. If you're going to suggest ignoring a taxonomic change of this magnitude, you need to do better than that. Can you cite *anything* from 2010 onward that undermines Lithobates? 5 years is plenty of time to make a new phylogeny and write some new papers. HCA (talk) 01:15, 30 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

What you are saying about dates makes no sense. Hillis and Wilcox (2005) presented the original sequence data on North American Rana that everyone else has re-analyzed since then, and they recognized Rana and restricted the name Lithobates as a subgenus for the Rana palmipes group. Frost et al. 2006 then re-analyzed these same data (from Hillis and Wilcox 2005) in an larger analysis of frogs and suggested a change in the use of the name of Lithobates (and used it as a genus). That was 2006. Those same data and the Frost proposal were subsequently reconsidered and reanalyzed by Bossuyt et al. 2006; Hillis 2007; Stuart 2008, Pauly et al. 2009, and Wiens et al. 2009, and all of those authors rejected the re-definition of Lithobates and its use as a genus, as proposed by Frost et al. 2006. Note that Pyron and Wiens in 2011 were commenting on the OLD use of Rana in AmphibiaWeb, when it was being used in the sense of Frost et al. 2006, and before it was updated to reflect the current literature. So they, too, rejected the use of Lithobates in the sense of Frost et al. 2006. Why do you now ask for a citation of another paper published since 2010? There have been no new data published the phylogeny of North American Rana since Hillis and Wilcox 2005, and no new taxonomic proposals for these frogs since 2006. The proposal to change the meaning of the name Lithobates by Frost has been widely rejected in all the systematic papers on Rana since Frost et al. 2006. I gather that you have a strong, personal investment or association with Frost et al. 2006 that makes you want to hang on to the changes proposed in that paper, but it is not the most recent analysis or evaluation, and their re-definition of Lithobates has not been accepted by other Rana systematists. Those are simply the facts. Many of the Rana pages still reference the Frost et al. 2006 paper, so it is not as if that viewpoint has been deleted. But clearly, that viewpoint has not been widely accepted or followed in the relevant literature, and the pages need to be consistent. Before I made corrections to make them consistent, they were completely mixed up between use of either Rana or Lithobates, often on the same page. They now match the most recent systematic revisions of the group, and they also match the most common usage of the names (by a factor of more than ten to one). It would make no sense to do otherwise, unless you are just trying to force a personally opinion. To do so would require ignoring all of the most recent papers on this group. Furthermore, if you want yet another reference since 2010 that evaluates and discusses the use of Rana versus Lithobates, I cited Fouquette and Dubois 2014 above. They explicitly discuss this issue and consider the two names, and agree with the other recent papers in using Lithobates as a subgenus. Note that these authors are not otherwise aligned with either side of the debate. Ranapipiens (talk) 01:51, 30 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Show me where in Bossuyt et al. 2006; Stuart 2008, Wiens et al. 2009 and Pyron and Wiens 2011 they reject Lithobates (no other taxa). Quote it to me and give me a page number, because I've read these and found nothing like that.

And your assessment of personal investment is actually the opposite of true - my area is strictly physiological (zero taxonomy), and I don't care what they're called as long as I can pith them and do in vitro preps on their muscles; titin is far more interesting to me than taxonomy. Ironically, my last three publications on North American ranids used Rana, in spite of Lithobates, to connect it to the physiological literature. However, your tone throughout this has been enough to strike suspicions of axe-grinding and WP:COI, and I've struggled to presume otherwise and WP:AGF, even in light of the highly suspicious decision not the even mention the Frost et al 2009 paper, which you have pointedly ignored in spite of being asked directly about it several times; just because it doesn't have original data does not mean the criticisms are not valid. HCA (talk) 02:31, 30 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Those papers all evaluated the relevant species and used Rana rather than Lithobates, or (if they used Lithobates at all) they restricted the use of Lithobates to a subgenus of Rana. As I've noted a number of times above, the only original data in these papers on North American Rana is in Hillis and Wilcox (2005). Frost et al. 2009 defended their reasons for recognizing Lithobates as a genus, but added no new data or arguments. I did not cite them originally because you (or someone) asked for primary literature with data and analyses, neither of which are present in that paper. The other papers I cited all have at least a reanalysis of the relevant data, or (in the case of the citation I added at your request from 2014), a recent unaligned assessment of the current state of Rana taxonomy. I just cleaned up some messy, inconsistent, confusing pages to make them consistent with the current taxonomy of these frogs, to avoid any further confusion in the literature. You say that you have used Rana for these species in your recent papers as well for the same reason (to better connect the names with the literature). There are clearly far more (and more recent) papers that would have to be ignored to use Lithobates as a genus. The last analysis (not usage or opinion) that recommended Lithobates as a genus was 2006, and I have cited plenty of phylogenetic analyses published since then that rejected that usage, as well as recent neutral, unaligned reviews that evaluated all the evidence and explicitly rejected Lithobates as a genus (such as Fouquette and Dubois, 2014). Ranapipiens (talk) 02:56, 30 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

If you're going to ignore my requests, I see no reason to continue with this. Since you cannot seem to wrap your head around it, let me spell it out: Implicit endorsement of either by use/disuse is not relevant. WP:V needs something that comes at the problem head-on, and the only thing you've presented so far in that vein is Pauly et al 2009, which Frost et al 2009 disputed.

And, once again, you call on this invisible "consensus". You say there "...are clearly far more (and more recent) papers..." refuting Lithobates, yet state nothing new has happened in Ranid taxonomy since 2005. Both cannot be true. Either cite these papers directly if they address the issue head on, or admit they don't exist if its just more "implicit endorsement".

And, yet again, you fail to address any criticisms raised by Frost et al 2009. Don't just keep dismissing it. This is the reason I have a problem with this conversation - you refuse to answer any question simply and directly.

Now, it's my turn to call WP:COI. Are you an author of any of the cited papers below? Or a student of one of the authors? You don't have to give a name, but you *do* have to acknowledge a COI. Either answer directly, or I will refer this entire thread to the COI noticeboard, since you've been asked about this before and dodged it. HCA (talk) 03:18, 30 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

It is not a conflict of interest to be have published on a subject. We WANT experts in particular groups contributing to Wikipedia. A COI is defined in Wikipedia as: "Conflict of interest (COI) editing involves contributing to Wikipedia about yourself, family, friends, clients, employers, or your financial or other relationships." I certainly have done none of those things. Do you argue that Wikipedia should not follow ASW because Frost has a COI, as the lead author of Frost et al. 2006?

Let's look at this whole thing another way. What "problem" are you trying to solve by recognizing Lithobates as a genus? No one, including Frost et al., have ever argued that the genus Rana, including all the North American species, is not monophyletic. So, NO ONE denies that Rana is a legitimate group in that context. In contrast, several authors, as cited and discussed above, have noted that Rana is made paraphyletic if Lithobates is recognized as a genus. Moreover, use of Lithobatesin this sense arbitrarily changes the meaning of both the names Rana and Lithobates, and disconnects many widely used names from their literature. It also undeniably creates confusion and instability in the species names of many common frogs (witness this discussion). So, on the one hand, we have the unproblematic names that have been widely used (and continue to be widely used) throughout the literature, and which are favored by the most recent systematic reviews in any case (Rana). On the other hand is a proposal that created new problems, did not solve any existing ones, introduced widespread confusion and instability, and has not been accepted in subsequent systematic reviews (Lithobates as a genus).Ranapipiens (talk) 10:13, 30 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

OK, let's back up, because I think it's pretty clear you don't understand WP:OR, WP:SYNTH and WP:V and just how strict they are. I'll illustrate with an example which I am involved in.

There is a paper (Author et al XXXX), cited in WP, which gets something wrong. Not just taxonomy wrong, physics wrong, where it can be mathematically proven that it's wrong. The authors asserted that Ax=By, when in reality Ax-By=Cz, where A & B are constants, C is mass (thus can never be zero in a real-world macroscopic system), and xyz are variables (which can only be zero transiently or trivially (i.e. when the system is at rest)). But, because there is no paper specifically saying that the paper in question is wrong, removing/disputing it would be only based on my own work, and however perfect my math, that still violates WP:OR, because it's my own work on WP, and violates WP:V, because no matter how many physics textbooks I quote, none specifically say, in as many words, that Author et al XXXX is wrong, and other papers in field avoiding citing it aren't strong enough for WP:V.

But wait, there's more. I actually have a paper in review that does the math right (HCA et al, in review). There's even a graph of Ax and By over time, with pretty colors and everything, showing they only transient intersect when z is zero. I can literally point to a graph (and an accompanying statistical test) and say "Author et al XXXX is wrong because Ax and By are only transiently equal, and the inequality is high at precisely the timepoint they evaluated." But I don't explicitly say that in the paper (short-form word limits are brutal), so it still fails to meet WP:V and pass muster under WP:OR, even once it's published. A friend of mine, working on a different system, will be using the correct method after a discussion, but even after they publish, unless they make such a specific statement, considering my work and theirs would violate WP:SYNTH.

That is how strict WP:OR, WP:SYNTH and WP:V are. You can literally have every puzzle piece put together, but unless there is an outside source meeting WP guidelines that explicitly says "The puzzle is done and it's a picture of a baby duck", you can't include it on the baby duck page. These aren't the rules of science, but this isn't science, it's an encyclopedia. Encyclopedias are never "bleeding edge", and tend to be conservative, because reliability and verifiability are their key traits - any statement should be backed up by a reference of some sort (preferably online and not behind a paywall). Now, actual enforcement is spotty and haphazard, but that's no more defense than "Officer, I've sped down this road plenty of times without getting a ticket."

I'm not just being a demanding asshat, or secretly working for Frost. I'm attempting to adhere to the rules of WP. Look at it from my perspective. This is a contentious issue with clearly strong feelings on both sides. Your logic could be unimpeachable, but WP:OR prevents us from basing a decision on it. Your interpretation of the literature could be spot-on, but WP:SYNTH and means we need something directly attributable to a specific paper. And what further complicates things is that the only paper which does have such a direct, unambiguous statement (Pauly et al 2009) has a highly critical response paper associated with it (Frost et al 2009), and, once again, your opinion and my opinion on which of that pair of papers is right or wrong is irrelevant, as that would be WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. Maybe you're right in dismissing Frost et al 2009 from the argument, or maybe you're wrong, but neither option matters, because either would be WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. That's why I was after something from 2010 or later - a subsequent paper which provides an unambiguous statement either for or against, which has at least been accepted enough not to prompt a response paper. In the absence of such a paper, the default rule of Wikipedia:AAR is to use the AMNH database for amphibians.

The way I see it, you have only three options available that conform to WP policies and rules. 1) Publish your own paper explicitly refuting Lithobates. WP:COI means you'd have to own up to it, but if it doesn't garner a response letter and your arguments are accepted by the scientific community, it could be added. 2) Convince Wikipedia:AAR to use AmphibiaWeb instead of AMNH as a taxonomic source. For this, you will need to present clear reasons that go beyond this particular taxon, and need to take that up on the project page. 3) Find a post-2009 paper which explicitly refutes Lithobates. Not just a paper that uses Rana pipiens instead, or says "there may be issues with this", but actually says, in as many words, "We find that Lithobates sensu Frost et al 2006 is invalid for reasons X, Y, and Z".

I hope this clarifies the nature of my requests, their peculiar specificity, my seeming unwillingness to listen to your reasons, and my general motivations in this, and gives you an outline for how to proceed. At the end of the day, I'm trying to uphold WP policies WP:OR, WP:SYNTH and WP:V for the benefit of WP as a whole, beyond just Ranidae. Please, read and absorb these policies and their motivations. They can be frustrating at times (for me too, see above), but they exist for a reason, and broadly speaking, the benefits of the policies outweigh the negatives, especially when issues are this contentious. HCA (talk) 14:23, 30 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Thanks very much for clarifying your request. The Fouquette and Dubois (2014) book cited below does indeed meet your criteria. Those authors have a lengthy discussion of the recognition of Rana versus Lithobates, and reject using Lithobates as a genus in favor of Rana. I'll work on adding that reference to the relevant pages.Ranapipiens (talk) 14:50, 30 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

Ok, it's on request, and usually my library is fairly prompt. HCA (talk) 15:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

I am not sure that the Fouquette and Dubois (2014) book will change this discussion. It is just a single work favoring one view over the other. Because of many claims about consensus for Rana rather than Lithobates, I looked this closer. First, I checked the choice made by websites presenting regional amphibian faunas in Central and South America (N American ones have already been discussed; the ones below are ones that I am familiar with, there could be more). They all use Lithobates:

Not all are necessarily run by taxonomists, but at least they are specialists who have had to make their choice.

I also checked the Web of Science. I made searches for the string "Rana catesbeian*" etc. used in article title during the last five years, including much studied species and some odd ones. This suggest that Rana and Lithobates are used quite similarly in the primary literature, in articles focused on single species:

Rana catesbeiana: 48 (including 6 Rana (Lithobates) catesbeiana), Lithobates catesbeianus: 90
Rana sylvatica: 41, Lithobates sylvaticus: 36
Rana pipiens: 22, Lithobates pipiens: 24
Rana grylio: 7, Lithobates grylio: 0
Rana palmipes: 0, Lithobates palmipes: 6
Rana bwana: 0, Lithobates bwana: 0
Rana tarahumarae: 0, Lithobates tarahumarae: 0
Rana vaillanti: 0, Lithobates vaillanti: 0

So quite clearly, there is no consensus, but if anything, Lithobates is being used more. Micromesistius (talk) 07:21, 1 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

There is no doubt the recent usage of the species names has been confused and inconsistent in the literature over the past several years. One can cite many papers that use one or the other set of names. But by the criteria discussed by HCA above, usage of Rana without explicit discussion and rejection of Lithobates (or the reverse) is apparently not sufficient. For HCA, even all the recent papers that are explicitly focused on the phylogeny of Rana, which use Rana rather than Lithobates but do not explicitly discuss the rejection of Lithobates, were not a sufficient justification for recognizing Rana, which is why I provided the Fouquette and Dubois (2014) reference, which does discuss the issue and rejects Lithobates as a genus. Although I argued above (and still believe) that usage of Rana rather than Lithobates in all recent papers that are focused on the higher phylogeny and systematics of ranid frogs is sufficient justification for using Rana over Lithobates, HCA asked me to provide a recent independent reference that explicitly discusses and rejects Lithobates in favor of Rana. That was the only reason for adding the Fouquette and Dubois (2014) reference.

But in addition to the book by Fouquette and Dubois (2014), another major mainstream reference book has just been published on herpetology (I just received my copy in today's mail): the 4th edition of the textbook 'Herpetology', by Pough et al., 2015 (full reference below; none of the authors have been involved in either side of the discussion). This textbook has a chapter on the systematics of amphibians, and the section on Ranidae discusses this issue and explicitly rejects the use of Lithobates as a genus, in favor of using Rana for all the American ranids, and then uses Rana for all the references to the extensive literature on North American Rana throughout the book. Usage in the general literature will probably lag for a few years, but as each of these recent lists, analyses of the phylogeny and systematics of Rana, and general textbooks continues to recognize Rana and reject the use of Lithobates as a genus, eventually the secondary references in the literature will follow and re-stabilize to using Rana as the generic name for the relevant species.Ranapipiens (talk) 15:29, 1 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

You continue to project a view that the majority is in favor of Rana, but this is against the facts. Statement "as each of these recent lists, analyses of the phylogeny and systematics of Rana, and general textbooks continues to recognize Rana over Lithobates" is simply not true. What about the regional websites I mentioned above? In terms of recent mainstream reference books, Vitt & Caldwell's 'Herpetology' (2014, full reference below) uses Lithobates. It seems that you regard any source favoring Lithobates as untrustworthy? Micromesistius (talk) 16:21, 1 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I think you need to re-read all of the discussion above. As I clearly stated, the regional websites not not meet the criteria requested by HCA. Vitt and Caldwell's book does not discuss the use of these taxa, and simply is another case of use of a taxon name (a criterion rejected by HCA above). In contrast, the most recent textbook on herpetology (Pough et al. 2015) DOES discuss the issue, and rejects the use of Lithobates as a genus, and meets the criteria requested by HCA above. So, what I said in response to HCA is true: all the recent analyses that explictly deal with the higher systematics of Rana reject the use of Lithobates as a genus, and the recent references that explicitly discuss the use of Rana versus Lithobates (rather than just using one or the other in a regional website, for example) also reject Lithobates as a genus (e.g., Fouquette and Dubois, 2014; Pough et al., 2015). It is frustrating to try to respond to different arguments made by different people in this format, but whether the criterion is usage in the primary systematics literature on Rana (an argument I made), or explicit recent publications that discuss the reasons for using Rana rather than Lithobates (the argument by HCA above), or the most widespread use of the names throughout the existing literature (a point that is simply factual, and no one has debated), or the primary reasons that the use of Lithobates solves no problems but creates new ones (summarized by me above)....the answer is always the same: Each of these arguments supports the same result, namely that the appropriate genus for these frogs is Rana rather than Lithobates. On the other side are people who argue that there is a confusing mix of usage in regional websites and secondary literature (meaning the literature that is not focused on the systematics of the group), and that both names have been used in these contexts. Yes, the recent use of names in the secondary literature is indeed confusing and inconsistent, and Wikipedia can help to clear up this confusion by following the primary literature.Ranapipiens (talk) 17:22, 1 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Just touching base, still haven't gotten Fouquette & Dubois via ILL yet, so I can't really evaluate the arguments. What does Pough's new edition say specifically? I think that info would be nice to have before going onwards. Part of the problem is that this crosses so many rules and policies that it becomes very complex. For instance, what happens in 6 months if an article supporting Lithobates comes out, specifically arguing against Fouquette & Dubois 2014 and Pough et al 2015? Do we change them all back? And we have to justify this to the broader project: why does this case warrant breaking with the standard taxonomic sources for the Reptiles & Amphibians Wikiproject (which were selected for just this purpose - avoiding controversy and frequent changes), but not others? Maybe it would be productive to go back to zero and start a list of "Things that need to be answered and policies that need to be addressed", then go point by point on those. Warning: it'll probably be a long list. HCA (talk) 14:25, 3 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I have the Pough et al. 2015 book at home, and I'm at work today; I can quote it tonight, but it basically says that they agree with the arguments articulated by Pauly et al. 2009 for recognizing Rana rather than Lithobates. I'd point out that "going back" to the pages before I updated them would mean going back to a confusing mix of using both Rana and Lithobates for the same species, often on the same page. The pages badly needed to be cleaned up, and I cleaned them up to match all the recent Rana systematics papers. To me, that is much more important than the fact that independent overviews like Fouquette and Dubois (2014) or Pough et al. (2015) also agree and follow the primary literature, but I added those references because you asked for recent sources that explicitly discussed Lithobates versus Rana, and rejected the former. Both of those sources do that. But given that 100% of the analyses and publications from the past 8 years that are specifically on the phylogeny and systematics of Rana use Rana rather than Lithobates, I don't think there is much chance of "going back" to Lithobates, and certainly no justification for doing so given the criteria that you set out above. I very much appreciate your attention to detail in this matter, but I'm very unclear as to why this is even still a discussion given the recent systematics literature on the group.Ranapipiens (talk) 16:17, 3 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

One reason that this discussion is so prolonged is that you seldom address the points that are made, instead directing the discussion to somewhere else. You seem not to appreciate that in this project, we have the Amphibian Species of the World as the primary source of taxonomy, something that was decided already in 2008 (before my time in WP). HCA has discussed the formal aspects in some detail, but in most practical terms, this serves to bring some stability, and to avoid discussions like this. ASW is a well regarded database and we need a good reason to deviate from it. You struggle to convince at least me that there are good reasons, but mine is one vote only. However, there are other aspects that make your changes particularly problematic:

Do you have WP:COI? We still know nothing about that in press paper that you used as justification in the beginning, but which suggests that you might not be neutral.
You have a history of changing Lithobates to Rana that predates the current round of edits. This seems to indicate that you have some particular conviction regarding this matter. WP:COI?
- Clarification: Editors with COI can contribute, but should not make controversial edits. Changing Lithobates to Rana is controversial, both in light of existing literature and this discussion.
Your history in Wikipedia and expertise with the topic also means that you very well know that these changes have been controversial. Why did you not open a discussion on the talk pages before starting the edits?
Your edits have not been backed up by references (at least typically not—I have not checked them all). You just reverted things to Rana. Only afterwards, in this discussion, you have started to come up with references. These have not been used in the articles.
You have removed one inconsistency (between articles, commendably so), but created another, within articles. For example for Peralta frog, all references use Lithobates, whereas now the text uses Rana. Isn't this confusing?
You moved pages by copying text from one article to another, against WP:MOVE. Of course, you might not have known this guideline, but it nevertheless enabled you to move pages without assistance from other editors that might have challenged the moves.

Micromesistius (talk) 21:57, 3 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I already already answered that I have no COI, other than expertise in the group. The only clear COI is between ASW and Frost et al. 2006, which have the same principle author. The fact that ASW has not followed the primary literature for Rana has created this problem. I answered each person with the questions that they asked, but you seem to keep trying to apply those answers to other questions from other people. I removed every inconsistency I could find in the text of the Rana pages (there were many pages that referred to species by both names at different points in the text WITHIN articles, as well as the inconsistency BETWEEN articles), but I certainly did not change or remove any reference to Lithobates in a reference. You said: "You have removed one inconsistency (between articles, commendably so), but created another, within articles. For example for Peralta frog, all references use Lithobates, whereas now the text uses Rana. Isn't this confusing?" My answer: No, it would be inappropriate to change a reference that uses the name Lithobates in its title, since that was the name used in the original title. If the reference says Lithobates in the title, we are stuck with that forever. I didn't remove any such references, because the references are still valid, even if the name is no longer used. There is no way to correct that kind of confusion, unless we just never cite articles that use old names, which would be inappropriate. If you would like for me to add references to that page that use the name Rana in the title, I will certainly do so, but it is not clear to me why that is necessary. I have added numerous references to the articles, and added a reference to any substantial comment. I have not added a reference to every edit (such as updating a name every time it is used), but that is because the articles did not contain (and typically do not contain) such references for every use of a name. If someone asks me to add a reference where they think I should have (as HCA did), I have done so. If anyone asks me to supply a reference for other edits where they think they are needed, I will do so. The only text that I copied from one page to another was the list of species names that I originally produced for the Rana page, which had been moved to the Lithobates without any consultation with me. Furthermore, the changes I've made are not controversial within the recent primary literature on Rana systematics. It seems to me that at this point that you (as opposed to HCA) are simply trying to harass me, which is a clear violation of Wikipedia policy. Please stop; this discussion is needlessly hostile towards me, and I'm just trying to clean up confusion on my own time, to make Wikipedia as accurate as it can be. I've done everything I can to answer all reasonable questions, but now you are just making up ridiculous points.Ranapipiens (talk) 01:18, 4 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I think, in all fairness, some of the attitude you perceive in the tone of Micromesistius is justified. While there is the policy of WP:BOLD, you made a major taxonomic change in an area which you knew to be controversial (regardless of whether one side has "won" by now) without any consultations with other editors and contravening the official taxonomic sources of the Reptiles & Amphibians WikiProject. Furthermore, WP as a whole is often a target for contentious editing, in which those with a strong POV on a particular unresolved topic will make substantial edits to promote their POV, so any behavior that looks even remotely similar will set off alarm bells. If you consider it from the outside, I'm sure you can see how your edits tripped a variety of alarm bells, justified or not, leading to a less-than-welcoming reception from some parties.

Also, can you send me that Pough argument in more detail (I'm sure a brief quote won't anger the copyright gods too much)? It's also worth noting that Vitt & Caldwell's book (2013) uses Lithobates, so it looks like the textbooks might balance out (I can't search the whole book online, though, so I can't see if/where their reasoning is given). HCA (talk) 15:18, 4 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I was wrong in implicating that you did not address the COI question, but your answer also indicates that you interpret the COI issue too narrowly. What I was specifically thinking is WP:SELFCITE. However, insofar that you are not an author of the references we have discussed, that guideline has not been violated. But you still need to mind WP:NPOV.

I have already acknowledged that you have been meticulous in making the main body of Rana/Lithobates articles self-consistent, but I can do so again. This does not change the fact that it is odd that references consistently use one name, and article another. I am of course not asking you to remove references that are relevant, but add relevant references (but only if we reach that consensus). What you have now done with Peralta frog is only half-way in right direction as it does not address the name question. Note, however, that I am not generally in favor of listing citations for usages of various names in the taxobox (except perhaps for the original one), as is common for WP reptiles. ASW is good source for such information, and listing citations without accompanying references is of little use.

Please check your edit history more carefully. You copied contents of Lithobates clamitans, Lithobates heckscheri, Lithobates vibicarius, Lithobates brownorum, and Lithobates megapoda over to the corresponding Rana articles that were redirects. You said you have not removed references but for Lithobates brownorum the ASW reference is now gone (as is the ITIS ref), and replaced with Hillis and Wilcox (2005). This is now used as reference for distribution, which is not discussed in the paper. For Lithobates megapoda, there is a major loss of content. Rana megapoda is now a 2-liner, whereas Lithobates megapoda was a start-class article. If this is not disruptive editing, what is? Micromesistius (talk) 20:47, 4 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I can't find anyplace that Vitt and Caldwell actually addresses the Rana versus Lithobates issue. Perhaps I am missing it, but it appears to be just a case of use of a particular name, without any discussion. HCA asked for recent cases where the issue was specifically addressed, and the author(s) specifically chose one name over the other. That is the case in Pough et al. (2015). Here is the quote from page 90 of that book, as requested above by HCA:

"Frost et al. (2006) proposed using the name Aquarana (later synonomized with Lithobates) for the clade of Rana that included New World species such as R. catesbeiana and R. pipiens. However, we do not adapt this taxonomy, for reasons outlined in Pauly et al. (2009)."

Obviously, this is not independent reasoning from Pauly et al. (2006). But it is reference that specifically notes the two usages, and chooses Rana over Lithobates based on the arguments of Pauly et al. (2006). That is more than I can find in Vitt and Caldwell. The other reference I mentioned, in the book by Fouquette and Dubois (2014), has a much lengthier and independent analysis that comes to the same conclusion.

I am happy to add additional references for any comment where someone thinks they are needed. I've added appropriate references whenever someone has requested them, and I'm happy to add more. As for copying text, I did have to change the name of pages from Lithobates megapoda (for example) to Rana megapoda. As there were already re-direct pages of both names, I did transfer the contents of one page to the other for consistency in name use, essentially changing the name of the primary page so that it matched the current name of the group. Obviously, it wouldn't make sense to update the name of the species and leave the name of the page different. Many pages, in contrast, have the primary article listed under the common name of the species, so no such transfer was needed. If there is a better way to accomplish this consistency or a way change the name of a page when the other name already exists, I'd be happy to get advice about that for the future. But since we needed a re-direct page from Lithobates in any case, the approach I took seemed the only logical approach.Ranapipiens (talk) 19:47, 6 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

OK, my library apparently cannot get ahold of Foquette & Dubious. Can you scan the relevant pages and email them to me. "Email this user" from my talk page should work. HCA (talk) 21:53, 22 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Here is one recent reference (Conlon et al. 2014), representing a group of authors who are independent from both the Frost et al. and Hillis, Pauly, et al. "camps". This is direct quote from the beginning of the discussion section in Conlon et al. (2014):

"The taxonomy and evolutionary history of the Ranidae are matters of some controversy. In a major reappraisal of phylogenetic relationships within the family, Frost et al. (2006) recognized 16 taxa (Amolops, Babina, Clinotarsus, Glandirana, Huia, Humerana, Hylarana, Lithobates, Meristogenys, Odorrana, Pelophylax, Pseudorana, Pterorana, Rana, Sanguirana, and Staurois). It was concluded that the former extensive genus Rana, comprising in excess of 250 species, does not constitute a monophyletic group. In the revised taxonomy, Rana is retained for a more restricted group of frogs from Eurasia and North America (currently 48 species) (Frost, 2013). The genus Lithobates Fitzinger, 1834 was reintroduced in an expanded form that currently comprises 49 species from North, Central and South America to southern Brazil. This Lithobates genus includes frogs previously classified in the Lithobates (Rana palmipes group), Pantherana (North American and Mexican leopard frogs) and Aquarana (North American bullfrogs) species groups of Hillis and Wilcox (2005). All North American ranid frogs are assigned to the genera Lithobates and Rana."

"Although widely accepted, this taxonomy has nevertheless been strongly criticized (Dubois, 2007, Hillis, 2007, Pauly et al., 2009 and Pyron and Wiens, 2011) on the grounds that it is premature and arbitrary. Hillis (2007) suggested that Rana should be retained for all North American ranids and Lithobates be recognized as a sub-clade of Rana. In a large-scale analysis of Genbank sequences of three mitochondrial and nine nuclear genes, Pyron and Wiens (2011) recognized 10 genera within the Ranidae (Amnirana, Amolops, Huia, Hylarana, Meristogenys, Odorrana, Pseudoamolops, Pterorana, Rana, and Staurois). Their taxonomy, which has been described by Frost (2013) as “antiquated and nonmonophyletic”, retains the former expanded taxon Rana and confirms the likely monophyly of the taxon Hylarana which, despite the objections of Frost (2013), is assigned a sister-group relationship to Amnirana. In the taxonomy and nomenclature of Hillis and Wilcox (2005) L. forreri is assigned to the Scurrilirana species group, defined as the clade stemming from the most recent common ancestor of Rana berlandieri, Rana sphenocephala, Rana forreri, Rana spectabilis, Rana omiltemana, Rana taylori, and Rana magnaocularis. In addition, the clade contains, among other species, Rana blairi, Rana onca, and Rana yavapaiensis. The use of the term Scurrilirana has been criticized by Dubois (2007) as being inconsistent with the rules of the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature. An earlier cladistic analysis based upon the amino acid sequences of the brevinin-1 peptides from a more limited set of species provides strong support for the division of North American ranids into the two genera Lithobates and Rana (Conlon et al., 2009). Consequently, the present study has adopted the taxonomic assignments of Frost (2013) so that the three species investigated that were formerly classified in the expanded genus Rana are now placed in the genus Lithobates (L. forreri) and Hylarana (H. luctuosa and H. signata)."

So, they are accepting Lithobates, based on their take on the literature as well as own research. Also the type of data they use is different, so this is not just recycling old evidence, although the number of species covered is limited. Micromesistius (talk) 09:11, 23 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

HCA: As requested, here is the text from Fouquette and Dubois (2014):

Pages 388-389: "Commentary: Until recently, all North American ranid frogs were considered members of the genus Rana. Hillis & Wilcox (2005) analyzed relationships among the American species, and elected to retain the species in a genus Rana, but named a number of 'subgenera' corresponding to clades elucidated by their study. Some of those taxa were indicated to be nested at different ranks within others, so that caused names to be unavialable under the Code. The analysis by Frost et al. (2006) supported that study, finding North American species to fall into two rather distinct clades, which they treated as separate genera, Rana and Lithobates. Discussion of extralimital members of the family is beyond the scope of this work. However, s with our treatment of bufonid genera, where a taxonomic choice can be made for treatment of two clades as either separate genera or subgenera of one genus, without upsetting monophyly, we elect the latter, so we here recognize a genus Rana, with two North American subgenera, Rana and Lithobates. Frost et al. (2006:249) showed in cladogram format that their genera Rana and Lithobates form one monophyeletic unit consisting of two sister clades. Frost et al. elected to treat the members of those two clades as separate genera; we elect to treat them as subgenera, in the senior genus Rana. Pyron & Wiens retained Rana as the generic name for all North American ranids, without adopting any subdivision of the genus.

An additional advantage of retaining the generic name Rana for all North American species was pointed out by Hillis (2007). He searched electronically for articles on Rana catesbeiana and found almost 2000, but a search for Lithobates catesbeianus returned none. With more than five additional years since Frost et al. (2006) split the genus, we serached again on the two nomina, but restricted the time frame to the years 2007 to mid-2011. Rana catesbeiana returned 672 articles, while Lithobates catesbeianus returned 23. At the very least, this reflects either resistance to or delay in awareness of the name change, and again suggests that the stability of names is better served by our treatment of the two names as subgenera rather than genera."

---End of requested quote from Fouquette and Dubois (2014)--- The full discussion for the genus Rana in Fouquette and Dubois (2014) goes from pages 388-433, but most of those pages are species accounts. The above is their discussion of using Rana as a more inclusive genus that includes Lithobates.Ranapipiens (talk) 19:50, 24 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

References:

AmphibiaWeb. 2015. Information on amphibian biology and conservation. University of California, Berkeley (CA). Available from: http://amphibiaweb.org/. Accessed July 2015.

Bossuyt F., Brown R.M., Hillis D.M., Cannatella D.C., and Milinkovitch M.C. 2006. Phylogeny and biogeography of a cosmopolitan frog radiation: Late Cretaceous diversification resulted in continent-scale endemism in the family Ranidae. Syst. Biol. 55:579.

Che J., Pang J., Zhao E.M., Matsui M., and Zhang Y.P. 2007. Phylogenetic relationships of the Chinese brown frogs (genus Rana) inferred from partial mitochondrial 12S and 16S rRNA gene sequences. Zool. Sci. 24:71–80.

Conlon, J. M., J. Kolodziejek, M. Mechkarska, L. Coquet, J. Leprince, T. Jouenne, H. Vaudry, P. F. Nielsen, N. Nowotny, and J. D. King. 2014. Host defense peptides from Lithobates forreri, Hylarana luctuosa, and Hylarana signata (Ranidae): Phylogenetic relationships inferred from primary structures of ranatuerin-2 and brevinin-2 peptides. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part D: Genomics and Proteomics 9:49–57. doi: 10.1016/j.cbd.2014.01.002.

Fouquette, M. J., and Dubois A. 2014. A Checklist of North American Amphibians and Reptiles: The United States and Canada, 7th Ed. Volume 1—Amphibians. Xlibris Publ. ISBN 9781493170340.

Frost D.R., McDiarmid R.W., and Mendelson, J. R. 2009. Response to the Point of View of Gregory B. Pauly, David M. Hillis, and David C. Cannatella, by the Anuran Subcommittee of the SSAR/HL/ASIH Scientific and Standard English Names List. Herpetologica 65(2), 136-153.

Hillis D.M. and Wilcox T.P. 2005. Phylogeny of the New World true frogs (Rana). Mol. Phylogenet. Evol. 34:299–314.

Pauly G.B., Hillis D.M., and Cannatella D.C. 2009. Taxonomic freedom and the role of ofﬁcial lists of species names. Herpetologica 65:115–128.

Pough, F.H., Andrews, R.M., Crump, M.L., Savitzky, A.H., Well, K.D., and Brandley. M.C. 2015. Herpetology, 4th edition. Sinauer Associates, Sunderland, MA. 591 pp.

Stuart B.L. 2008. The phylogenetic problem of Huia (Amphibia: Ranidae). Mol. Phylogenet. Evol. 46:49–60.

Vitt, Laurie J.; Caldwell, Janalee P. (2014). Herpetology: An Introductory Biology of Amphibians and Reptiles (4th ed.). Academic Press.

Wiens J.J., Sukumaran J., Pyron R.A., and Brown R.M. 2009. Evolutionary and biogeographic origins of high tropical diversity in old world frogs (Ranidae). Evolution 63:1217–1231.

Ok I am responding here due to the comment on the Project page for Reptiles and Amphibiians. First up I will explain where I am coming from. I am a taxonomist and paleontologist and nomenclatural specialist. However my work is on turtles. See my user page if you wish. I have done some work with frogs over 20 years ago but as a practicing herpetologist I do know some of those involved in this debate, eg Frost, Pauly, Hillis, Dubois among others. Attention to this was requested by @Micromesistius:.

First up one of the most important statements in any of those papers was by Pauly et al 2009. They pointed out that no society or group has the capacity to claim overseer for the nomenclature of a group as this is against the principals of the ICZN code. I stand by the code and I agree with this. You cannot ignore nomenclatural acts and the 2008 version of the 2006 Amphibians of the World list has done this. Basically because he did not agree with them. You cannot use a single source for your amphibian list. For the turtles I use several and even then only as a guide. Second many unfounded claims going on in this discussion. Please I did a rapid search among scholarly articles and almost all had the American radiation of Rana in Lithobates. Based on what I have seen this is where they should be. Nobody as was noted by someone has made the nomenclatural act to move them back to Rana, therefore they belong in Lithobates. As far as the code goes that is the end of that discussion, and for scientific names we have to follow the code.

Ok secondary references, I really do not like that term because in science secondary reference means something different than in other fields. However WP does have a general policy on this as noted. However we need to realise that the lag time between primary references and secondary followup in taxonomy and nomenclature can be over 10 years. So therefore if your specialty is frogs I suggest you use several sites, reviews and books (secondary references) as your framework but you need to keep an eye on the primary literature to keep a track of important nomenclatural changes. I would suggest people realise that ITIS has about a 5 year lag in its updating process. A good one for species included is the IUCN Redlist (which uses Lithobates) its not that it is a nomenclatural site but they do try to stay up to date. Same goes for CITES. Major field guides that have major support are also of use, as is Darrel Frost's site, but watch that primary literature also.

So after reading all this, the currently correct name is Lithobates. Nomenclature changes, its something we have to live with its called science. Please also remember that stability in nomenclature does not refer to the combination, ie genus + species, it refers only to the name, the combination can change as much as anyone can provide evidence to do it and is willing to make a nomenclatural act. Feel free to ping me if you have any further questions on this. Cheers Faendalimas ^talk 22:34, 30 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Clearly I, as well as the majority of the current literature and researchers who work on this group of frogs, disagree with your point of view here. Secondary lists are split in usage; it is true you can websites that use both names. AmphibiaWeb uses Rana; some other sources may still use Lithobates (but largely because they haven't updated yet). But in the end, it is primary systematists who work on the group who determine the name, and those who work with the group overwhelming use Rana, as does the vast majority of the literature. Eventually, the secondary sources will catch up.Ranapipiens (talk) 12:34, 11 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

That is a fairly vague statement, I did a quick search on Zootaxa a journal in which 60% of taxonomic papers are now published where I found over a dozen authors and many publications using Lithobates since 2010. The journal Zootaxa is a primary source. In the end though it is the papers that make the nomenclatural acts that matter. So please cite the paper that makes the nomenclatural act moving these taxa back to Rana. That is what the code demands. It is surprising how adamant you are about this. cheers Faendalimas ^talk 23:45, 11 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Please read the discussion above. These taxa were moved back to Rana by Hillis (2007), Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 42:331-338. This move was discussed extensively by Pauly et al., 2009, Herpetologica 65:115–128, and has been supported and followed by major secondary sources most recently (just the ones from the past year) by Fouquette, M. J., and Dubois A. 2014. A Checklist of North American Amphibians and Reptiles: The United States and Canada, 7th Ed. Volume 1—Amphibians. Xlibris Publ. ISBN 9781493170340; Pough, F.H., Andrews, R.M., Crump, M.L., Savitzky, A.H., Well, K.D., and Brandley. M.C. 2015. Herpetology, 4th edition. Sinauer Associates, Sunderland, MA. 591 pp.; and AmphibiaWeb. 2015. Information on amphibian biology and conservation. University of California, Berkeley (CA). Available from: http://amphibiaweb.org/.Ranapipiens (talk) 02:53, 12 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

I did and have read Hillis (2007) and a number of the other papers here, as well as several others. Hillis made recommendations he did not make a nomenclatural act and provided no evidence for such an act in any-case, only referring to his previous statements on this. Hillis was largely trying to reconcile Phylocode and Linnean Nomenclature, tough to do, with the preconception that nomenclature between species and genus was superfluous. His commentary on Dubois' paper was more about their differing interpretations of the ICZN code. I do not entirely agree with Dubois' interpretation of the code either and Hillis clearly has a preference for PyloCode, and is not correct about a number of his statements on lineaen nomenclature, but that is all irrelevant. What matters is did Hillis make a nomenclatural act, he made a lot of recommendations, but he did not make a clear and concise statement synonymising Lithobates with Rana with the evidence for this presented or a reference to such evidence. Which is why I said there does not appear to be any act moving them back to Rana, that I am aware of (I am acknowledging I could be wrong as I primarily work on turtles). Another point here though is the way WP works, I have come into this discussion, late, trying to find compromise, ie concensus. Try to remember WP favors concensus. Cheers Faendalimas ^talk 03:54, 12 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

A "nomenclatural act" is the deliberate use of a taxon name, with an explanation for that use. Certainly, what Hillis (2007) did constitutes a nomenclatural act. If you think that the ICZN rules do not support the use of Rana as the correct genus, please provide the specific Article of the ICZN you think supports this position. It seems clear that the ICZN rules do in fact completely support the recognition of Rana. Moreover, its use is also is supported by standard taxonomic practices that are not written in the ICZN rules (e.g., it is a monophyletic taxon, and preserves common usage for well-known species). As noted in the references cited above (see, for example, the analysis by Fouquette and Dubois, 2014), Rana is used in the current scientific literature overwhelmingly compared to Lithobates. The most recent Herpetology text (Pough et al., 2015) specifically discusses the use of Rana versus Lithobates, and supports the use of Rana. The most widely-used and accessed internet site on amphibians, AmphibiaWeb (2015), also explicitly discusses the use of Rana versus Lithobates, and recommends Rana. All of these current sources follow the ICZN rules explicitly, and all of them agree that Rana is the appropriate name for these frogs. No one, to my knowledge, has argued in print that the ICZN rules support Lithobates over Rana...indeed, Alain Dubois (co-author of Fouquette and Dubois, 2014, which recognized Rana as the appropriate genus, rather than Lithobates) is known for his strict interpretation and adherence to the ICZN rules. Ranapipiens (talk) 12:13, 12 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Sort of, a nomenclatural act is the specific declaration of a change in the validity of an available name, or the declaration that a name is unavailable, or the declaration of a new name. It must do so by declaration not implication in order to be valid. This will include discussion of the necessary typification relevant and diagnosis else it is an invalid nomenclatural act. Taxonomic practice is not relevant to nomenclature, they are connected by the type but that is all. I know Alain Dubois personally and yes he is a very strict adherent to the rules, Pough et al and AmphibiaWeb are also not relevant. In the end those stats do not matter, I was asked to comment, on a group I acknowledge I do not work on, so I applied the rules. I actually do that as a job, ICZN rules, its my specialty. I examined the last 4 years worth of Zootaxa and only found one paper that used Rana, I only got to the 3rd page of the results but the rest used Lithobates. Zootaxa is the premier taxonomic journal at present. You may be right, a majority of overall papers may be using Rana, it does not mean they should be. I myself would not be editing any of this, I am making an observation only. You and the 3 or so others interested in this will be editing it, as I said before WP is also about concensus so you need to find a way to reach concensus or it will probably be mediated. I think all of you have WP best interests at heart but that is just one last suggestion. Cheers Faendalimas ^talk 13:30, 12 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

The ICZN rules can be used to determine if a taxon name is available: there is no doubt that the genus name Rana is available, and no one has said otherwise. They can also be used to determine priority between names: there is no doubt that Rana has priority over Lithobates, and once again, no one has claimed otherwise. They can also settle lots of other issues, such as homonyms, that do not apply here. However, no one has claimed anywhere in the literature that using Rana as the appropriate genus is in any way an issue of ICZN rules, which is why I was surprised to see you bring that issue up. That is why I asked you to either provide a reference from the literature about these taxa that explains why you think the ICZN rules favor one solution, or name the specific Article from the ICZN rules that you think applies.

As for usage, looking at a single journal to see how the name has been used is not very informative, especially when there are published analyses that have already done analyses for all published literature for Rana versus Lithobates (as cited above). I provided the other general references from the past year at the request of an earlier responder...it seems clear from these that a consensus is indeed emerging in the literature in favor of using Rana. So, I don't think it helps build a consensus to suggest that this is an issue that can be settled by application of ICZN rules, when that is clearly not the case. If you disagree and think that it IS a matter of applying ICZN rules, then you need state which Article of the ICZN rules applies, and explain why. No one has done that, in the literature or anywhere else. I'm pretty familiar with ICZN rules, and the only ones that are relevant to a choice between Rana and Lithobates are the ones that deal with the Principle of Priority. Given that Rana is clearly the older name (in fact, it is one of the Linnaean names), clearly Lithobates could never be selected over Rana on the basis of priority. If subgenera are used, then Lithobates can be used as a subgenus of Rana, but the reverse is not true (again, because Rana has priority). There is certainly no question of availability of either name.Ranapipiens (talk) 18:39, 12 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

ICZN Code deals with availability you are correct, and Priority etc I am not claiming any different. Rana certainly has Priority over Lithobates when the two are applied to the same entity, ie in this case if the type species of Rana and the type species of Lithobates are referring to the same genus. But the problem is no-one as far as I can tell has made the valid nomenclatural act that synonymises Rana and Lithobates after Lithobates was removed from synonymy, until they do they are separate genera. Maybe they should I have no opinion on that its not my work, that is for those doing the research to determine. However as best as I can see it has not been done and this will be an area of contention until it is done or refuted. With the Principal of Priority it does not just matter which name is older, it also matters what the type species are and your argument for subgenera applies equally to genus as long as the types are not representing the same group of species, and vice versa. If subgenera are used and a subgenus Lithobates is the same as a subgenus Rana then Rana still has Priority and Lithobates could not be used. This is why typification is important to declare in any nomenclatural act. Further they must be assessed only when they are being applied to the same rank. Lithobates can certainly be used for a part of Rana if the taxonomic decision to split Rana is made, which is what happened. Reversing that and placing those species back in Rana can also be done, but requires a valid nomenclatural act to do so. As taxonomists we can name whatever clades we wish, within reason, as long as the clade is monophyletic. As for Zootaxa, I used it to do a quick sample of the current literature, since it is a taxonomic journal its nomenclature is usually very good. I acknowledged that when I stated it. Cheers Faendalimas ^talk 02:38, 13 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

In any case I have suggested that this discussion be mediated here would you please respond to that as to whether or not you think that is an appropriate course to resolve this or not. I meant what I said over there I do think all of you have the best interests of WP at heart here and have shown great restraint to not decend into an edit war. So I congratulate you all on that. Cheers Faendalimas ^talk 03:24, 13 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Yes, there has clearly been several nomenclatural acts that name Lithobates as a subgenus of Rana, all since Frost (2006). This is what systematists have been following in all the various papers that I cited (e.g., just in the past year, Fouquette and Dubois, 2014, in a book that deals exclusively with the nomenclature of North American Amphibians and Reptiles, treat Lithobates as a subgenus of Rana; AmphibiaWeb 2015 explicitly discusses and accepts the treatment of Lithobates as a subgenus of Rana; Pough et al. (2015) discuss the nomenclatural history and treat Lithobates as a subgenus of Rana). I don't think there is any debate about this; there is extensive discussion of this point in the recent literature. So, if that is your concern, then this is simple a matter of fact. Thank you for weighing in on this, but it seems that there has just been some confusion about the facts, which hopefully are clear now.Ranapipiens (talk) 18:33, 13 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

"I don't think there is any debate about this"? Really, quite the contrary. If we set the break point to 2014, Conlon et al. (2014, Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part D, 9: 49–57) and McCranie (2015, Zootaxa, 3931: 352–386, citing also Solis et al. 2014, but I have not seen the latter) do also explicitly discuss the treatment of Lithobates and support its recognition as a genus. ASW is as relevant source as AmphibiaWeb, and does contain a much more thorough discussion, with references to both sides of the argument. Fouquette and Dubois (2014) is the only weightier support, but their position should be seen from the perspective that they do not recognize Incilius, Rhinella, and Anaxyrus as genera, something that now is nearly universal elsewhere (including AmphibiaWeb, although not quite consistently). It also looks like the F & D way of delimiting Lithobates is not the same as the Hillis one (I have not seen F & D, so I am basing this on Hillis (2014, Copeia 762–764), who dismisses the F & D book as being "privately published, non-peer-reviewed"). So this source only supports your position in not recognizing Lithobates as a genus, but not in what is included in taxon Lithobates.

Pough et al. (2015) could be weighed against Vitt & Caldwell (2014); only the former contains an explicit statement (1 sentence) but the choice of Lithobates in the latter can hardly be accidental, given that the authors are American. Finally, "North American Amphibians: Distribution and Diversity" by Green et al. (2014) uses Lithobates, but I do not know whether they discuss their choice. So, I probably have missed something, but Lithobates as a genus continues to have strong support, and to me it looks stronger than the contrary position(s). Micromesistius (talk) 20:29, 13 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Formal mediation has been requested

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The Mediation Committee has received a request for formal mediation of the dispute relating to "Rana vs Lithobates". As an editor concerned in this dispute, you are invited to participate in the mediation. Mediation is a voluntary process which resolves a dispute over article content by facilitation, consensus-building, and compromise among the involved editors. After reviewing the request page, the formal mediation policy, and the guide to formal mediation, please indicate in the "party agreement" section whether you agree to participate. Because requests must be responded to by the Mediation Committee within seven days, please respond to the request by 21 September 2015.

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Message delivered by MediationBot (talk) on behalf of the Mediation Committee. 10:39, 14 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Request for mediation accepted

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The request for formal mediation of the dispute concerning Rana vs Lithobates, in which you were listed as a party, has been accepted by the Mediation Committee. The case will be assigned to an active mediator within two weeks, and mediation proceedings should begin shortly thereafter. Proceedings will begin at the case information page, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Rana vs Lithobates, so please add this to your watchlist. Formal mediation is governed by the Mediation Committee and its Policy. The Policy, and especially the first two sections of the "Mediation" section, should be read if you have never participated in formal mediation. For a short guide to accepted cases, see the "Accepted requests" section of the Guide to formal mediation. You may also want to familiarise yourself with the internal Procedures of the Committee.

As mediation proceedings begin, be aware that formal mediation can only be successful if every participant approaches discussion in a professional and civil way, and is completely prepared to compromise. Please contact the Committee if anything is unclear.

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Destructive Edits

Latest comment: 8 years ago6 comments2 people in discussion

The version as laid out by @HCA: is the version accepted by consensus and for some time now. If you now wish to go against consensus again, then you must justify this prior to making any changes to the page. You cannot revert over and over again because a page does not agree with your opinion. Your edits have caused many issues on these pages. Please refrain from this or I further action will be required. If you have changes to suggest do so on the talk page, only, and reach consensus. Cheers Faendalimas ^talk 22:18, 6 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

First, the consensus was to cite all literature on the subject, including new papers. You yourself said that the Yuan et al. paper (which I noted was in press) should be cited when it came out. Second, I didn't make these edits; others did. I merely pointed out that they were correct, up-to-date, and followed the Mediation agreement exactly. Third, I did not repeatedly revert; I reverted once to the reasonable, current version written by another contributor, because it is the only one that cites the current literature and is up-to-date and correct. If someone disagrees with Yuan et al. (2016) and has a published citation to support that point, they should add it to the citations, per our Mediation agreement. It is completely inappropriate to revert from the current paper, especially without even citing a single recent source that disagrees! No one ever said that Frost's list would be followed; in fact, all parties acknowledged that Frost has a COI, since he is the one who proposed the change to Lithobates. In recent years, Frost claimed that he held this view to follow the wishes of Jing Che, who published a paper in 2007 using Lithobates and Pseudorana. But Jing Che is the senior author of Yuan et al. (2016), and she obviously agrees with the current consensus, and not with the position of Frost.Ranapipiens (talk) 22:48, 6 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

You have no concept of the term consensus do you. The consensus on Wikipedia is that Lithobates is a genus, when it is generally accepted world wide that can be changed. Until then it cannot. You are welcome to add the Yuan et al paper and that it has a contested viewpoint, but that is all for now. You cannot change the entire taxonomy without discussion because you want it to be different. I am reverting your edit, if you revert again I will report you and request page protection. This could lead to you being blocked. It is time you appreciate how Wikipedia works. Cheers Faendalimas ^talk 23:08, 6 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

The Mediation agreement that we all agreed to was that the page would fairly discuss and present all the viewpoints. The consensus on Rana was formed by the actual systematists who work on the group, including all the systematists who have contributed original data to the systematics of these frogs in recent years. Someone recently changed the Rana page in contrast to the Mediation discussion, and HerpSystematics fixed the many problems in that page and updated the literature. This has indeed been settled, and reverting to an out-of-date page that does NOT even cite the current literature on the group is clearly inappropriate.Ranapipiens (talk) 23:27, 6 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

I just said above that you should add in the new literature and that there is contention. You read what you want to huh? Faendalimas ^talk 23:35, 6 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

OK, thanks, I'm glad that we are on the same page. I'm sorry if I misread your comment.Ranapipiens (talk) 22:44, 9 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

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